PADPARADSCHA SAPPHIRE...Real or synthetic?

[RockHugger]

I dont know sapphires. But I saw this one and it looks very pretty. I contacted the vendor and he said it RI's as sapphire and he 'thinks' its real (he says he bought it from a reputable dealer) but he hasnt had further testing done on it. But as we know, there is synthetic sapphire that RIs the same as natural.

What do you think? It is 1.4cts. What is a 1.4ct synthetic sapphire worth of it is synthetic?

Thanks!!

 

[RockHugger]

Back

 

[LaurenThePartier]

I would pass unless it has certification from a reputable lab, or you can afford to take the loss given it could possibly be synthetic. Also, on my screen, I'm not getting any orange. . . just pink.

If it sounds too good to be true . . .

 

[RockHugger]

I see a little orange...on the sides there is a hint. There is no doubt its what he says....just if its real or synthetic is the question. Hmm...

Here is another one he is selling.

 

[LaurenThePartier]

Date: 11/22/2009 7:37:19 PM
Author: Tropicgal10
I see a little orange...on the sides there is a hint. There is no doubt its what he says....just if its real or synthetic is the question. Hmm...

No one here can conclusively tell with only a couple of pictures and the word of a vendor who *thinks* it''s real.

So, ask him if he''ll have it certified for you by a reputable lab, and if not, I would pass. You can find BE pads for extremely cheap.

 

[RockHugger]

pic of the other one. Trust me, I dont take the word of any sellers/dealers.

 

[T L]

Even if it''s natural, it could be beryllium-heated, and that essentially devalues it.

 

[arjunajane]

at least from the photos, I would not call that a pad.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 11/22/2009 8:27:21 PM
Author: arjunajane
at least from the photos, I would not call that a pad.

Ditto.

 

[Indylady]

They both look similar to many BE sapphires that I''ve seen, but that doesn''t necessarily mean that its BE treated as well. I also have to agree with others and say that neither really look like pads to me.

 

[TravelingGal]

Somehow I don''t think a real pad (gently heated or not) would be cut into an asscher, but that''s my unscientific opinion.

 

[T L]

Date: 11/22/2009 9:55:39 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Somehow I don't think a real pad (gently heated or not) would be cut into an asscher, but that's my unscientific opinion.

Good point, but they do cut synthetics to look like native cuts from natural stones. However, the perfect "machine cutting" on that stone is highly suspect.

 

[RockHugger]

Why wouldnt a pad be cut into an asher? Does the type of stone matter what the cut can be?

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 11/22/2009 10:22:14 PM
Author: Tropicgal10
Why wouldnt a pad be cut into an asher? Does the type of stone matter what the cut can be?

I'm guessing because one would cut a rare stone, like a pad, into a shape that would face up large (and asschers are very deep, and so face up smaller per carat than say, a step cut oval). You need a lot of rough to cut a good asscher and you end up cutting a lot of the crystal away, so with a pad, I doubt a cutter would want to "waste" much of the rough. Also, certain stone crystals are just naturally certain shapes that lend themselves more to particular cuts, in order to make the most of the crystal. For example, emerald crystals are long bars, and lend themselves well to emerald cuts. I don't think sapphire crystals lend themselves to squarish cuts.

I would expect that you rarely see pad asschers for the same reason you rarely see alexandrite asschers, the material is just so rare that most cutters probably cut it to maximize weight and visual size.

 

[RockHugger]

Hmm, didnt know that! Thanks!

 

[FrekeChild]

Isn''t that actually closer to a carre cut than an asscher?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

If a cutter or dealer thinks his stone is natural, or un-treated, then he would typically send that stone to a lab to authenticate that is is natural, or un-treated.

The small amount of money it would cost to authenticate its authenticity would be far out weighed by the amount of money he would realize from its eventual sale as a non-synthetic or non-treated natural stone.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/23/2009 12:51:53 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood
If a cutter or dealer thinks his stone is natural, or un-treated, then he would typically send that stone to a lab to authenticate that is is natural, or un-treated.


The small amount of money it would cost to authenticate its authenticity would be far out weighed by the amount of money he would realize from its eventual sale as a non-synthetic or non-treated natural stone.

Well put. I highly doubt that is a real pad. And it doesn''t look very pad-like to me either. Sorry!

 

[ma re]

They look like one pink and one orange sapphire to me, not like two pads. Not to mention that I''ve never seen a natural orange one that''s so brightly colored. As mentioned, cut used on pink is unusual for this variety, and stones are also very clean, so I''d pass. Another good point from Richard, if the seller thought that it could be a pad, he sure would check out to see if it really is.

 

[chrono]

I agree with all the points stated above.

1. The first picture looks like a pink sapphire. The hints of orange does not qualify it as a padparadscha. A padparadscha sapphire must have an EQUAL mix and complete blend of both orange and pink. This also applies to the second picture which looks more like a BE heated orange sapphire.
2. I don’t trust what a vendor “thinks”. If he really thinks it’s a pad, why not send to AGL or AIGS for a $25 brief to certify it and if it passes, he could sell it for FAR more? That measly $25 will pay for itself many times over.
3. Ditto with the cut. Most padparadscha stones I’ve seen tend to be cut as shallow as it can possibly be to retain maximum weight. Due to its rarity, cutters try to remove as little of the rough material as possible, hence it is unlikely for a true padparadscha to be a step cut stone, which usually required more depth than ovals.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 11/23/2009 8:02:20 AM
Author: Chrono
I agree with all the points stated above.

1. The first picture looks like a pink sapphire. The hints of orange does not qualify it as a padparadscha. A padparadscha sapphire must have an EQUAL mix and complete blend of both orange and pink. This also applies to the second picture which looks more like a BE heated orange sapphire.
2. I don’t trust what a vendor “thinks”. If he really thinks it’s a pad, why not send to AGL or AIGS for a $25 brief to certify it and if it passes, he could sell it for FAR more? That measly $25 will pay for itself many times over.
3. Ditto with the cut. Most padparadscha stones I’ve seen tend to be cut as shallow as it can possibly be to retain maximum weight. Due to its rarity, cutters try to remove as little of the rough material as possible, hence it is unlikely for a true padparadscha to be a step cut stone, which usually required more depth than ovals.

Just so no one is misled, the AGL FastTrack GemBrief is $55. If you''re interested you can see the price list here:

http://www.aglgemlab.com/services/rates.aspx

Note that the standard GemBrief does not include any special analytical testing, such as that required to determine beryllium diffusion. For that you need to buy their Prestige Report ($120).

 

[chrono]

Date: 11/23/2009 8:22:10 AM
Author: morecarats
Just so no one is misled, the AGL FastTrack GemBrief is $55. If you''re interested you can see the price list here:

http://www.aglgemlab.com/services/rates.aspx

Note that the standard GemBrief does not include any special analytical testing, such as that required to determine beryllium diffusion. For that you need to buy their Prestige Report ($120).

Thanks for the update, MC. I see that the price of the AGL brief has almost doubled from earlier this year! In that case, AIGS might be the better way to go.

 

[PrecisionGem]

That cut is not an Asscher cut. It''s an emerald type square cut, and doesn''t look particularly deep, as the last facet tier is windowed and cut below the critical angle.
The price will tell you if it''s real or lab created. The RI of both lab created and real sapphires are essentially the same. People don''t give away real sapphires for lab created prices.

 

[T L]

Date: 11/23/2009 8:33:28 AM
Author: PrecisionGem
That cut is not an Asscher cut. It''s an emerald type square cut, and doesn''t look particularly deep, as the last facet tier is windowed and cut below the critical angle.
The price will tell you if it''s real or lab created. The RI of both lab created and real sapphires are essentially the same. People don''t give away real sapphires for lab created prices.

BE-heated ones are also very very inexpensive, in comparison to the real deal natural colored gems.

 

[morecarats]

If you''re buying a stone from a dealer in Thailand, it makes good sense to have it certified at AIGS (or one of the other well-known labs in Bangkok). Most reputable dealers will do the certification for you at cost ($20 at AIGS), which includes certification of the treatment and the use of advanced instruments.

But I''m not sure it makes sense to send a stone bought in the US, Europe or Australia to AIGS. You''d want to send any valuable gem by courier and the cost will quickly add up. Unfortunately AIGS only has the one lab in Bangkok. Apparently they''ve had many requests to set up labs in other locations, including the offer of seed money to do it. But the limiting factor, I''m told, is the availability of experienced gemologists.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 11/23/2009 8:34:18 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 11/23/2009 8:33:28 AM
Author: PrecisionGem
That cut is not an Asscher cut. It''s an emerald type square cut, and doesn''t look particularly deep, as the last facet tier is windowed and cut below the critical angle.
The price will tell you if it''s real or lab created. The RI of both lab created and real sapphires are essentially the same. People don''t give away real sapphires for lab created prices.

BE-heated ones are also very very inexpensive, in comparison to the real deal natural colored gems.

Synthetic sapphiires produced by the flame fusion method are essentially worthless, since they can be quickly manufactured in vast quantities. In fact Verneuil, the French chemist who perfected the process, was already turning out 1,000 kg a year of synthetic corundum by 1907.

BE-heated stones at least started out life as natural sapphire. They are still relatively inexpensive -- we see them in the market for around $40 to $75 a carat -- but prices have gone up in the the last few years.

 

[RockHugger]

Thanks for the input guys! I am going to think about it throughout the day. It is not a thialand seller. It is a pretty stone none the less so I will think about it. Its not highly priced, so its not like I would be paying out the rear for it. I would prolly get it lab certed *if* I got it to see for sure what it is.

Ill let ya know what I do! Thanks for the input and advise. Learned a few new things!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/23/2009 9:16:04 AM
Author: Tropicgal10
Thanks for the input guys! I am going to think about it throughout the day. It is not a thialand seller. It is a pretty stone none the less so I will think about it. Its not highly priced, so its not like I would be paying out the rear for it. I would prolly get it lab certed *if* I got it to see for sure what it is.


Ill let ya know what I do! Thanks for the input and advise. Learned a few new things!

Just please make sure that if you do purchase it that youa re ok with the price for a lab created or BE sapphire. Because as the others have said-just think about it logically. If you could sell something for many more thousands of dollars by spending $50 or so to get it certified-why wouldn't you?

 

[RockHugger]

Well what would be the max price paid for a BE or Lab sapphire of that size? I cant find anything online for it.

 

[LD]

Neither of those look like a Pad. However, both look like they''ve been BE diffused.

I would never buy from a Vendor who "thinks" an RI is that of a sapphire etc. Quite clearly if he doesn''t even know what the RI is then he''s totally incapable of knowing whether this is BE diffused or not. Most collectors steer well clear of BE material. It''s easy for Vendors to give the title "Padparadscha" to inferior gemstones in the hope that someone will come along and pay more than they would for a BE treated sapphire.

If you want to flush out this Vendor ask him to send the stone for testing for BE and also to see whether it will be classified as a Pad. I bet you he runs for the hills!