OK, so now my kitty has behavior issues...

[rainbowtrout]

Have any of you found effective strategies for dealing with play agression?

MC is at the "chew everything" and "play with everything" age, but I am trying to teach him that, while it is ok to bat at my hands or bite them GENTLY, hard biting and scratching are a no-no.

Here''s the problem--he often does it when he wants attention. I can''t do "no-response" to biting, it hurts! If I either a) bop him on the nose gently but firmly enough to get the message across or b) squirt him, he lays his ears back, wiggles, and bites me HARDER! if I get up and play with him with his other toys this helps, but I don''t want to teach him to bite me when he wants to play! ( I play with him plenty, btw, it isn''t like he''s neglected)

The only effective strategy I have found is "time out"--when he bites too hard I say NO! and if he does it again I put him in his pen for 5 minutes. But I''m not sure if he''s getting the message...the time from bite to crate might be too long? Right now he''s in there for the second time in 30 minutes..I crated him, took him out, and he attacked my foot...

My vet poked at my hands when I took him in the other day and fussed at me, apparently she''s worried I''ll get cat scratch fever

I love him to bits but occasionally I wish he were a dog, I know how to train dogs....

Also, he has conjuctivits right now so I''m trying to be tolerant that me may just be feeling grouchy, but that still isn''t an excuse to bite the humans.


I''ve attached pics to make it worth your while

 

[rainbowtrout]

I don't normally let him do this, but I had to get the photo to contrast with the one from when he first came to live with us in May...it's now July...this cat is going to be HUGE...

 

[rainbowtrout]

....when he looked like this

 

[anchor31]

He''s so adorable! I never had that problem with my babies, so I''m sorry to say I can''t help.

I couldn''t help but notice... Firefly!

 

[Lorelei]

WOW he is getting HUGE!!!!

Regarding the biting RT, as he is still very young, then with luck it will calm down as he grows older, but you are right to nip this in the bud. Apparently a Mother cat will bop a misbehaving kitten on the nose, so your gentle nose tapping is something he should understand. I have found that cats do respect it, it seems to give them a clear signal without scaring them if done gently. Also see about getting him neutered as soon as he is 6 months old. Also overstimulation might be the cause here, so I would try positive reinforcement with ignoring him when he gets rough and playing when he is keeping his teeth and claws to himself!! Perhaps it might be best if you give him his toys and let him play on his own for a bit to break the pattern for a week or 2, I know this would be hard but it might pay off.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Hey Loreli,
I *wish* he respected the nose tapping....just seems to send a "bite me harder" signal. He plays pretty well on his own already, luckily--but when he wants to play with me, and I try ignoring his rough play, he pounces on he so hard I can't ignore it! Like, "Hey, Stop ignoring me lady!"

Hopefully he will grow out of it..I mean, he still is only 3.5 mos old. I have found that distracting him with his favorite toys will divert his attention towards those, but it doesn't solve the underlying issue..


He IS getting huge! I ordered a cat carrier (my friend is bringing it when she comes to visit ) for the plane ride home---got a small--he's 6 pounds now, hope he doesn't break 8 by the end of August! I keep telling him, "We have to stop feeding you so much so you will fit into your carrier!"

Re: neutering. He's getting nipped August 1st, want to do it before introducing he and Chen.

Anchor: Thanks! And yep, that's Mal and Kaylee

 

[Lorelei]

This is a tricky one. I think maybe try letting him play on his own completely for a couple of weeks to see if that will disconnect this pattern from his behaviour, then if he runs up and grabs your feet or anything, give him a quick blast with the spray bottle. Perhaps due to his beginnings he hasn't had the teaching a Mother cat would have give him so you might have to take a slightly different approach. I was checking back and you have had him since he was 28 days old, so he lacked a Mother's care and teaching which he would have normally had, perhaps this is why he rough houses a bit too enthusiastically.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Hmmm, I might try that for a week and see how it goes. First I have to get a better spray bottle.

 

[Lorelei]

See how you go unless anyone else of the PS cat nuts respond! I have the feeling that as he gets older and is neutered etc, it might settle down and in the meantime work on making it crystal clear to him - DO NOT ATTACK OR BITE YOUR MOMMY!

Also I think don't let him bite or scratch at your hands at all, rather than letting him do it gently, as this could be a source of confusion. Teach him that no biting or scratching is allowed, it should be clearer to him that way hopefully.

 

[Selkie]

Unfortunately, I have no suggestions for the behavior issues, but I did want to ask what episode of Firefly you were watching?

 

[FireGoddess]

Holly has this issue slightly. The behaviorist confirmed it (not that I needed confirmation...I don't tap her nose but I push my hand into her (prey would never do that, so it's important you don't try to pull away, but instead push towards her mouth when biting)....but Holly seems to respond to reprimand in this arena with intensified fervor too...

). I didn't read through the whole thread - it's Saturday and I'm at work, 'nuff said - but this stems from kitty not having been with its mom and siblings through a critical period where they play with each other and learn boundaries of what hurts and what is just playing when they romp around.

There is a section about it in the behavior book I have at home - including suggestions on what to do. I will reread it and give you the gist, tomorrow or Monday. All the behaviorist said about it was that kitty needs a LOT of playtime with you to get rid of all this energy s/he has pent up, and to NEVER use your hands or feet or any glove toys that use your hands inside when you play with them. Only birdy toys and the like on long wands so that you are not part of the 'game.'

I also apply neosporin or triple antibiotic cream to any scratches or bites immediately. Not only for infection's sake but because it helps them to heal extremely quickly so I don't look like a pincushion.

ETA: I think the reason the time out helps somewhat is that MC is just SO hyped up and aroused that time is the only thing that will really and truly get kitty calmed down enough to not be in that *attack* frame of mind. Cats can stay in heightened arousal for up to 24-48 hours!!!! I've never experienced that, but clearly that one time, the 30 min wasn't enough! LOL. This morning Holly was roaming around and was trying to play with my towel when I was getting out of the shower...I however, was trying to get ready so didn't let her do it very long, and before I knew it, she had wrapped her nails and fangs around my ankle to play. Uh, yeah, didn't like that so much. I said NO! NO! not screaming but sorta firmly and calmly. She walked away. We had a birdy play session after that.

BTW - one thing I forgot to mention - the behaviorist said NEVER to hiss at the cat. I figured that out on my own...when I hissed at Holly once, she pinned her ears back and started to get totally pissed at me like she was going to get in a catfight with me!

 

[portia]

Great advice Lorelei! LOL... I love your avatar!

rainbowtrout,

I have a friend who took in a stray kitten that was a biter. As he got bigger he bit harder and harder. When he was in that kind of mood, she would just put him down or put him in another room. After about two years of age he just slowly stopped biting so maybe your kitten will eventually outgrow the behavior. Getting him neutered may also mellow him out. Perhaps the conjuctivits is making him uncomfortable and he''s just acting out.

My DH and I have a 10 mo. old Savannah and she very quickly became the alpha cat to our two bengals. She plays *extremely* aggressively with them and they hate it. When it gets really bad we usually give her a timeout. We put her in the bathroom for about 15 min. (sometimes with the fan on to disconnect her from what''s going on in rest of the house) and she usually calms down. Unfortunately, the spray bottle doesn''t work with her... this cat LOVES water! She thinks it''s fun to be sprayed.

I think in your case, when MC starts biting I would stop playing immediately and perhaps try a timeout in a small room or bathroom. It may take several weeks for MC to understand the action-consequence pattern, but hopefully he''d understand that biting = no more playtime.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Oh, I love Serenity/FireFly. Your kitty has good taste!

 

[Cehrabehra]

what I have always done with my kittens is play mom - get them by the scruff - gently though, and I pet them with my other hand, gently, talking gently, and gradually ease up on the scruff and if they start acting up I pull up a bit more and eventually they''re sitting in my lap NOT doing that behavior. I do it all in a very gentle and soothing way. We have four kittens right now and one never needed this (hehe the one we''re keeping), two responded well and one.... forgets frequently and needs reminding!!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 7/14/2007 9:19:03 AM
Author: Lorelei
See how you go unless anyone else of the PS cat nuts respond! I have the feeling that as he gets older and is neutered etc, it might settle down and in the meantime work on making it crystal clear to him - DO NOT ATTACK OR BITE YOUR MOMMY!

Also I think don''t let him bite or scratch at your hands at all, rather than letting him do it gently, as this could be a source of confusion. Teach him that no biting or scratching is allowed, it should be clearer to him that way hopefully.

he''s kinda big to be doing the scruff of the neck thing, but you could try... and I agree with NO scratching or biting allowed, even gentle.

We''re keeping these kittens until they''re at least 12 weeks old because everything I''ve read says that''s best for socialization etc. And when the kittens piss of mama cat - she pins them down with her teeth around their throats. She doesn''t hurt them, but she lets them know who''s boss. I wouldn''t recommend that, but I do find the scruff thing works with little kittens. They *instantly* stop the bad behavior.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Wow, thank you for your responses everyone.

RE: Firefly. It''s the Train Job, I think, Disc One. The second screenshot is actually of Stargate...hmm...can we see my inner geek yet?

RE: the cat. So let''s see, we have:

1) NO scratching or biting as ok (do we count when he just sort of puts his mouth on me as well?)

2)FG: the behavior book advice would be great, thanks. Never use hands and feet as a toy, only long toys (I''m going to have to improvise, they don''t sell them here)

3) Neosporin for the scratches....if it''s still an issue in US I will try this one.

4) Portia--2 Benglas and a Savannah? Holy cow...you must have an interesting house! I was always very interested in those breeds but MAN do they take a lot of energy!

5) Cehra: the scruff thing never really worked on him...oh well

**I have a thick black glove I sometimes put on my hand for playtime--do you think he would get the distinction gloved hand OK/not gloved=not OK or is this just a no-no (I''m leaning towards no-no)
**I''m a bit to blame in this as well, when he was very tiny the "rough play" just felt like gentle nips to me so I didn''t correct it.


I''m thinking from reading the responses that I should just assume that he gets NO subtlety (glove vs no glove, gentle vs not gentle) and go from there. When our dogs were puppies they learned distinctions pretty easily but dogs and cats are...well--a different animal!

 

[rainbowtrout]

Last SKP (shameless kitten ****):


He decided climbing into the jar would be fun....

 

[Lorelei]

RT - to avoid confusion, I would stop hand and foot play altogether and not even when wearing a glove either, as he is unlikely to be able to distinguish between what is right and wrong - it will be easier on him to avoid play of this type, use the sort of toys FG mentions instead. Try to limit the opportunities he has to put his mouth on you, keep everything as easy as possible for him to understand. Like FG and I noted, he didn't have the benefit of his Mother and sibs to play with and learn his boundaries, so you will have to teach him instead, so go by making it as easy as possible for him to get it right.

Hee hee - love the shameless kitty ****!!! Moremoremore!

 

[rainbowtrout]

Thanks Loreli. I forgot to mention I think he may be teething as well--he chews on *everything*--the couch, the chair, the iron railing, me....

I am off the the supermarket tomorrow to see if they have some long cat toys or at least string I can tie to a ball or something.



Ok well if you insist on the SKP

:

MC and General Hammond

 

[rainbowtrout]

the undesirable behavior in-action !

 

[rainbowtrout]

A couple of you have mentioned the cat pecking order --dominant cats, etc. I know from observing 2 cats I used to have that they can do this, but what sort of "pride" structure do domestic cats have? I was under the impression that ferals only ganged together to breed or by necessity (where there is a lot of food).

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/14/2007 3:21:16 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
A couple of you have mentioned the cat pecking order --dominant cats, etc. I know from observing 2 cats I used to have that they can do this, but what sort of 'pride' structure do domestic cats have? I was under the impression that ferals only ganged together to breed or by necessity (where there is a lot of food).

LOVE the extra SKP RT!!!! Little tinker with his swatting!

Basically even indoor cats have their territories and need to duke it out until interlopers understand what belongs to whom and where are public areas so to speak! For example, chairs and beds may be staked out by one cat and rarely used by another, if you watch for a while, you will soon see this in action along with community areas being shared etc, along with some cats having superior status to others.

In the wild or with outdoor cats, if I remember rightly, highest on the hierachy rung would be a queen with kittens, followed by tom cats, then neuters etc. As you probably know, cats can fight bitterly for territory, an entire tom may have an area which stretches for a few miles and he will spend the majority of his time defending it. Domestic cats to a lesser extent will fit into this scheme of things, although a neutered tom or queen may have far less 'turf' than their entire brethren, the basic principles remain the same.

 

[Lynn B]

I don''t have much to add to the excellent advice above, but I thought I would share what my (2006 Annual) CATS magazine says about biting... (page 91)

BITING
Kittens play intensely, and biting is often a part of this. Kittens that were not properly socialized by their mother and siblings have a tendency to be particularly mouthy when playing. Humans often have a tendency to exacerbate this problem by encouraging kittens to play with hands and feet.

"Kittens must be taught at an early age that body parts are not accptable play toys," Galaxy (Jackson Galaxy, a feline behavior consultant with Little Big Cat Inc., in Boulder, CO) says. "The only way to learn is through consistent reinforcement. Never give in to the hand-play temptation!"

Galaxy notes that redirecting a kitten''s attention to remote and interactive toys works wonderfully to get its prey energy out in a constructive way. "A remote toy is one you can throw, such as a stuffed mouse, when things are starting to get out of control," Galaxy says. "Interactive toys are the ones where your hand controls the play, such as a fishing pole toy, but you stay at a safe distance. Remember: kittens need to play-hunt to develop. Play should be a basic cornerstone of your relationship."

I thought the distraction of a remote toy was a good idea. I also think time-out can be very successful, it worked well for Buster when he went through a BAD biting spell as a kitten.

Keep us posted!

 

[Lorelei]

Thats brilliant Lynn and I know that will help RT as it confirms what we were saying, thanks for sharing that!

 

[rainbowtrout]

Allrighty, we have begun the new rules tonight....it seems to be working well, I am trying to be very mindful of his mood and not pet him or give him the opportunity to nip when he is hyper, that way he gets set up to succeed.


Funny point: talking to FI on the phone tonight, and he hears me say "No! Don't do that! OK, you're going to do it again? Time out, we're going to put you in time-out. Right. Now."

He says "God help me, I'm marrying a kindergarden teacher."

I say "What???"

He tries to save it "Um, a HOT kindergarden teacher, honey."

Me: "Uh-huh."

Loreli: thank you for the pecking order info. I was curious about this and will have to be dealing with it soon. Interesting that queens with kittens are first in the wild.

Lynn: Oh, that is quite helpful, thanks!

 

[lumpkin]

Date: 7/14/2007 1:00:15 PM
Author: FireGoddess

BTW - one thing I forgot to mention - the behaviorist said NEVER to hiss at the cat. I figured that out on my own...when I hissed at Holly once, she pinned her ears back and started to get totally pissed at me like she was going to get in a catfight with me!

Oh, dear. And that worked so well for me. But then, Eddie has a really laid back personality and is definitely more submissive than a lot of cats and he has always had a loving owner, not been abandoned and left to fend for himself. I''m obviously going to refrain from giving cat behavior modification advice!

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 7/14/2007 10:27:23 PM
Author: lumpkin

Date: 7/14/2007 1:00:15 PM
Author: FireGoddess

BTW - one thing I forgot to mention - the behaviorist said NEVER to hiss at the cat. I figured that out on my own...when I hissed at Holly once, she pinned her ears back and started to get totally pissed at me like she was going to get in a catfight with me!

Oh, dear. And that worked so well for me. But then, Eddie has a really laid back personality and is definitely more submissive than a lot of cats and he has always had a loving owner, not been abandoned and left to fend for himself. I''m obviously going to refrain from giving cat behavior modification advice!

I think it definitely has to do with the personality of the cat and Holly was just like, ''BRING IT ON'' when I hissed at her. I couldn''t believe it. Hello, I''m 20 times your size and you''re gonna get into it with me? I was surprised. Little feisty thing.

 

[FireGoddess]

RT, a definite no no with the glove toy. Don't do it - MC won't differentiate the glove versus your plain hand. I know Gypsy has mentioned she worked on this and got the kitties to not attack her hand, and only do so with the glove on, but that seems difficult to me. Best never to use those toys where your hands or feet are the prey object.

I would fashion my own 'fishing pole' toys if I were you - get a long stick for yourself (plastic wouldn't snap like wood would) and tie heavy duty string to it, attach an irresistable toy to the end of the string, and wave it around for kitty. Even feathers as a toy at the end works - it's like catching a birdy. Holly loves it.

Also, if possible, make 'wounded kitty' noises if and when MC gets you. For advice on what that sounds like, step on MC's tail. You'll find out real quick.

No I would never advocate hurting kitty, but Holly gets underfoot so much it's easy for me to imitate the YOWCH sound in kitten-ese.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 7/15/2007 2:21:38 PM
Author: FireGoddess
RT, a definite no no with the glove toy. Don''t do it - MC won''t differentiate the glove versus your plain hand. I know Gypsy has mentioned she worked on this and got the kitties to not attack her hand, and only do so with the glove on, but that seems difficult to me. Best never to use those toys where your hands or feet are the prey object.

Yeah, it worked for me. But I was VERY firm when it was my bare hand. Going so far as holding thier muzzles in my hand when they would continue to try biting. My Hally never had this issue. And Frodo was a baby and I was his MOMMA so he reallly wanted to please me, so he got it quick. Duncan was one... and it took some time with him. But he''s got it now. Sometimes he slips and I hold his muzzle lightly and say, "NO" to reinforce it and he gets it again.

I would do it again with another cat. But that''s cause I''ve done it a few time now. I don''t know if it would work for anyone else.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Well it''s been a frustrating day in african cat-land. My vet says there is a pet supply store "somewhere in Agdal" (a suburb) but she doesn''t know where, and there is no yellow pages.

Also, the store has no toys, string, floss, feathers, or other toy-able object. I will probably have to find a tailor''s shop for string....we''ll see. Right now I have 1 ribbon tied to a q-tip, some jingly balls, and a stuffed jingly santa-hat penguin he likes Which is fine, but I need more string to tie to q-tips soon.

He''s been a little bit better today. I have been just going no-tolerance on any biting at all. I still got nipped hard on the face and clawed on the arm, but the arm was an accident.

Little

is curled up purring and watching SATC with me right now...he really is a sweet natured little guy, just plays a little rough.


Thanks for your help!