newbie questions about shopping

[kthan]

I am very new and only had limited experience about diamond(stone) shopping.
I am currently shopping a 1.0 carat round stone (F or G, VSI or VSII, ideal or premium cut, budget around $5500).
Based on my search (including the search in this forum), I can get G/VSII (vg to ex polish & symmetry), but do not know cut
(some site mentioned premium/very good, others did not) with GIA certification around 5200 - 5500 range.
I have some questions regarding the stone shopping.

First, if I don''t want to upgrade to D/F and VVS grade, how about G/VSII/premium cut/vg to ex polish/sym)?
In one thread, peoples are debating about more important factor (or the factor to be trimmed for the lower price).
I do not know if my selection above would be a good compromise. Someone said that cut is the most important, but the others
said we cannot judge the cut, nor noticeable in human eyes (same thing happens in other factors, like color, clarity, etc.)
I prefer a stone looked shinny given the size (1.0 carat). If you have any comments, please let me know.

Second, I searched some internet retailers (like diamond.com) and found that they had better pricing than local retailers (I am in chicago).
How safe to buy a stone from internet retailer? What factor do I have to make sure before I purchase? I am thinking couple of stones from Diamond.com. They said I can bring the stone to independent appraiser nearby and have the stone information verified (for just norminal fee around $30). Is this a good way to verify? Do I have to see a copy of GIA report online at the merchant site? Price wise, they had better price/deals compared to the others. But, not sure if they are reliable for stone shopping. Another question: when appraiser inspect the stone, they can verify the information about the cut? I am asking this because there is no report about the cut in GIA certification. But, it seems like the cut is important to make stone shinny.

Third, I do not know anything about the girdle. And, there are some terminology in price comparison table, like medsthk, tn-stk, tn-stk. How much does difference in girdle matter? What would I have to choose? Also, by the number of depth/table, can I know, for sure, that a stone is ideal, premium, or good cut (I doubt it, though)? What about polish & symmetry, which one is more important? (e.g., vg in poli, ex in sym vs. ex in poli/vg in sym).

I am sorry for these dummy questions. I would appreciate if you give me valuable advice to these questions.
Thank you.

 

[Maxine]

You need to start by educating yourself even more....there is a tutorial on this site....also a very extensive one on Good Old Gold website....other sites have them, too. Cut is the most important C....learn what makes a well cut diamond, and then you can start to think about color and clarity issues......but learn about cut, primarily!!!!! Then the rest will fall into place...the girdle is an element of cut......start sudying, and come back and ask more questions...lots of people here to help!!!!

 

[Maxine]

P.S.: Cut includes angles as well as depth and table percentages.....very good, premium even ideal cut means something different to different vendors.....don''t rely on their terms, but on the knowledge you gain here....There are many reliable internet retailers.....find some diamonds you think you like on the search at the top of the page, and post here for comments about the stone/vendors......

 

[AChiOAlumna]

Hi kthan...

Welcome to the board...I''m not an expert by any means, but this board has provided me with a lot of great information while I''ve been surfing and gave me the information I needed to purchase my new diamond!! Maybe I can provide some help....

First of all, some people say they can see the difference between a D & G colored stone. Most cannot. My recommendation is to look at 2 live, similar stones in these color ranges and see if you notice any differences between them. If you don''t and like the color of a "G", then go for that...
As for a VVS2 vs. a VS1 or 2 is very minute. You can easily purchase a VS2 and still be "eye clean." On the GIA certs, you''ll be able to see where the inclusions are located and determine if that will ruin the look of the stone...most of the time, however, you won''t be able to see VS2 inclusions with the naked eye...again...this will also save you money.

I do believe believe cut is extremely important as it will provide the maximum sparkle and brillance to your stone under different lights. You can have a great color and clarity, but if the cut is too deep or the table too big or the light leaks through the diamond, it could look more like glass than a diamond.

You''ll get a lot of great feedback about online dealers on this site and ways to be able to inspect your diamond before purchasing it. The prices will tend to be cheaper as they don''t have the overhead of B&Ms (brick & mortars = real stores). Verification of your diamond when purchased online is essential!!!

I''ll let someone else with more knowledge explain girdle to you...I do know that you want to stay away from "extremely thins" as it could chip easier and "extremely thick" because the diamond can become "bottom heavy."

Hope this helps...others will definitely chime in here as PS''ers like to see others make well-informed decisions about diamond purchases!!!

 

[Regular Guy]

Kthan,

The advise you''ve heard about going to the tutorial here is good, and this specific page will discuss the girdle.

Also, see ideas for shopping below my nome d-plume.

 

[kthan]

Thank you so much for your prompt and informative replies.
I am in the process of educating myself. In the meantime, let me just bring one stone here and ask how you think abou it.
It is a 1.00 carat, 60.5 (depth), 61 (table), G/VSII, MEDSTHK(girdle), ex (poli), vg (sym) with viewable GIA report from Diamond.com
And, below is their site link.
http://www.diamond.com/diamond_details.asp?T1=111461&sourceid=qIqiQlq-glicAk-UPgc50038786110&GEN5=DCAFFPRGAPGENBNR&dept_id=3=&md_id=3=

I bring this stone because this is pretty good price given the specs. But, it would be a good lesson after I found your comments on it.
Thanks again for your help in advance.

 

[Regular Guy]

Though I like the color and clarity of that particular one (just a personal preference that matches yours), as you'll see on the first page of the tutorial, no GIA cert will provide you the details on crown & pavilion measurements you would like to have, to review details of cut in a more "ideal" way. Otherwise, although the table is a bit big on that one, based on the other info, it may be fine. Because of the missing info, you just don't know. Not sure if for AGS certified options with that vendor, you can read the details of the AGS cert...but that could be another way to go for getting info. Diamonds that are in-house with most internet vendors will post crown & pavilion data, which you can then review more closely; frequently, these diamonds will come with other info, like pictures to allow you to see their light performance.

Just my 3 cents.

 

[kthan]

Again, thanks for the post.

Now, I am getting more info/knowledge. I read the info, as regular guy mentioned, about AGS certificate which provides most accurate information (including crown and pavilion data) and, sometimes, more strict evaluation. But, the stones with AGS report seems to be more expensive than the others with GIA.

Then, as regular guy mentioned, I might look for the information (crown & pavilion data) to determine their cut at vendors that had the stones in-house. I searched some of the vendors listed in here, but did not find the data in their sites. So far, It seems like the proper process is like this: 1. cut is the most important, 2. in order to determine the accurate cut info, look either AGS report or ask vendors about crown/pavilion data. Then, what if they did not/could not provide the info, would it be safe to buy the stone at the vendor who provide the data? Also, the independent appraiser also can verify the cut information as well, right?

In addition, if the cut is the most important, do I have to stick with ideal cut, then go to color and clarity given the maximum budget? So, my question is: even if downgrade color/clarity, don't sacrifise the cut from ideal into premium/excellent?

 

[Regular Guy]

Sorry you're mostly hearing from me just now...

a) yes, a well cut diamond would be your first target, I think.
b) not sure where your looking re: vendors here, and not finding that cut information. If you look at the search by cut database, you'll find only that; as mentioned before, these strategies may help you put that database into a larger context.
c) as far as what you can count on your local appraiser to help you with, as far as cut analysis goes...I'm more harsh here on this board than most. Generally, the list of appraisers at the top right is the place to start. Probably because the measurement of cut is something GIA has managed to avoid specifying for quite a while (this is changing in the next 12 months), most appraisers don't regard themselves as very accountable for that data, and in fact don't really check that for you. The featured appraisers at the top of the list of appraisers may help you more than most, from that point of view, if it's a significant enough concern.

 

[codex57]

Date: 4/11/2005 3:42

8 PM
Author: kthan

In addition, if the cut is the most important, do I have to stick with ideal cut, then go to color and clarity given the maximum budget? So, my question is: even if downgrade color/clarity, don''t sacrifise the cut from ideal into premium/excellent?

It''s up to you. If your budget can''t take it, I think it''s fine to go with premium/excellent cut. That''s if you can tell that''s what it is. make sure not to pay an ideal cut price. It''ll still be pretty shiny.

The point is to find the right balance. If your budget means an ideal cut stone puts you into a noticeable color and visible inclusions while excellent cut brings you out of that, you may wanna go with a slightly lower cut. There are 4 C''s. You just gotta find the right balance btw them all.

We just say cut is the most important b/c that''s what you should try and sacrifice last. Every C has a point where it will bother you. For Color, it''s when it looks too yellow. For Clarity, it''s when you see the inclusions. For Carat, it''s when you think it''s too small. For Cut, it''s when it isn''t sparkly enough.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

You are facing a classical problem: because it is difficult to obtain data on cut, one concentrates on size, colour and clarity first, before tackling the cut-problem. The problem is that one then ends up with a great price on a stone for size, colour and clarity, and one then asks whether it is a good stone.
Because there is no info available on cut, we cannot really comment on it, and you risk buying a bad stone.

Looking at your budget, and considering a super-ideal cut in a 1 Ct-size, you can go for I-SI1 or J-VS1 or VS2.
If you settle for an ideal cut, without H&A-symmetry, or without the perfect cutting into detail, you can probably go up one colour, to H-SI1 or I-VS.
If you settle for a fairly decent cut, you can probably go up even one colour higher, to G-SI1 or H-VS.
I fear that is where the buck stops in a 1Ct.

Live long,

 

[Reisen]

I''ve got a question here.

Assuming we can identify cut through the pricescope search engine, let''s assume we have close-to-complete information about a small group of stones (ie. stones with AGS certs available through pricescope vendors).

How important is cut, truely. That is, we''re told not to sacrifice cut, but does that mean one should always go for super-ideal and then find a good mix of the remaining 3 C''s?

What kind of a real world difference is there between super-ideal/AGS 0/H&A diamonds, and just "ideal" or even "very good" cuts. With no aide, I can quantify the other 3 C''s. If you put two stones next to each other, one a 1 carat and one a 1.5 carat, I can tell you which is bigger. If you put two stones next to each other, one a E color, one an I color, I can tell them apart. If you put and I2 stone next to a VVS2 I can tell them apart.

Could I tell a super-ideal cut apart from an ideal? What about from a "very good" cut?

 

[AChiOAlumna]

Riesen...

Of the 4 Cs, I agree cut is the most important. However, many of us do not have unlimited budgets to always be able to get the Ideal cut. I think you have to find the balance that is right for you and what you can be happy with. My recent EC purchase is of a premium, but not ideal, cut....the sparkle that resonates from it in different lighting makes me extremely happy and I''m okay with not getting the Ideal cut...but I also knew for an EC, that clarity was going to be my 2nd most important factor due to the clean cut facets and then 3rd as color. I had to find the combination that I was happy with and wasn''t willing to settle any lower.

HTH!

 

[codex57]

Date: 4/12/2005 12:36:26 PM
Author: Reisen

Could I tell a super-ideal cut apart from an ideal? What about from a 'very good' cut?

It's about the same as determining color. Some people can tell more than others. That's why, depending on your budget, it's ok to not get ideal or super-ideal. We just harp on cut so much because not only does it make the stone sparkle, but most people new to diamonds (including me) had never heard of cut or if we had, had no idea of its importance.

You have to remember, no one needs a diamond. All it is is a pretty rock. A very expensive one. It's value is more in its recognizability and beauty than tangible value to a person. It's kind of like an Aston Martin. Great luxury car. Lots of fame. Incredible beauty. However, the tangible stuff (speed, utility, etc) isn't really there. So, you just have to judge what you can afford. Cut is similar to the looks of a car. You can go with a plane jane Dodge Neon SRT-4/poor cut rock that doesn't sparkle much and catch much attention. Or, you can move up to say a Mustang GT or something that catches the eye more like a better cut rock Or, you can move up into the ideal/super ideal worlds of Porsches and Aston Martins. All are about the same speed, from that lowly Neon to the Aston Martin (let's use Carat size as the analogy to speed in a car). It's definitely one defining character of a sports car. However, especially for luxury items like an exotic car or a diamond, looks are very important as well. While a person can fix up the Neon to make it faster than the Aston Martin (or can buy a giant diamond that's dirty yellow and filled with inclusions and dull as hell), the Aston Martin/super ideal cut diamond owner can just flash the car/diamond and people will instantly see the difference in quality.

 

[Regular Guy]

I think Reisen''s asked a very good question....

Date: 4/12/2005 1

3:35 PM
Author: codex57

Date: 4/12/2005 12:36:26 PM
Author: Reisen

Could I tell a super-ideal cut apart from an ideal? What about from a ''very good'' cut?

It''s about the same as determining color. Some people can tell more than others.....

Well, how many people, and where is it clear it''s no people. I think John at WF may have conceded this question, in part. Would we all? No pepsi challenge for ACAs?

I think readers on this board have largely taken the approach that, since VVS can''t be seen, it''s not a good investment...though....there''s certainly nothing wrong with that. It''s just acknowledged that the difference between VVS and VS can''t be seen, and so...the logical conclusion might be to spend money on size, or elsewhere, instead. In his text, I think John has as much said that the ideal characteristics associated with hearts & arrows may be more alike than different than those qualities associated with VVS. And yet, on this board, ACAs do continue to be desirable, in addition to "expert selection," and probably more so that VVS.

Anyway, maybe the market speaks for itself, but giving explication to Reisen''s question is of interest to me. I think the Pepsi challenge is really enough, personally, but I''m not sure myself that "super-ideal" is the same as VVS.

If the difference can be seen, valuing that will still be a question. If it can''t...it''s a hard sell for the extra mile.

 

[lillguy]

There''s a great posting on the girdle I found on Pricescope. I just searched under "girdle" and you''ll see a posting that basically explains that too thick of a girdle can "waste away carat size" and too thin of one can chip the stone.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 4/12/2005 12:36:26 PM
Author: Reisen

What kind of a real world difference is there between super-ideal/AGS 0/H&A diamonds, and just ''ideal'' or even ''very good'' cuts. With no aide, I can quantify the other 3 C''s. If you put two stones next to each other, one a 1 carat and one a 1.5 carat, I can tell you which is bigger. If you put two stones next to each other, one a E color, one an I color, I can tell them apart. If you put and I2 stone next to a VVS2 I can tell them apart.

Could I tell a super-ideal cut apart from an ideal? What about from a ''very good'' cut?

The examples you gave don''t really support your question. In the carat examples, you''re talking about a stone that is 50% bigger....not just a little bigger.

In the clarity, you are talking about SIX steps of difference in clarity grade.

In response to those extreme examples, I''d reply "you could put an ideally cut stone next to a poorly cut stone, and I could tell them apart."

Distinguishing between a super-ideal, ideal, or even very good cut is like asking if you can VISIBLY see the difference between IF, VVS1 and VS1 stones. Likely not....at least not with the unaided eye.

Does everyone HAVE to purchase an AGS0 stone? Of course not. AGS1 is rated excellent; AGS2 is rated Very Good, AGS3 is rated Good.

I''d venture that people could buy AGS1 or AGS2 stones and be very pleased with them......because they will STILL outperform most of the average, deeply-cut stones that are commonplace.

Yes, it''s important to stay with a well-cut diamond. That doesn''t mean that it MUST be an AGS0. How far from that you''re personally willing to deviate depends on your comfort level.

 

[Reisen]

I guess that''s what I''m trying to get at. So is going from super ideal cut, to ideal, to very good like going from IF, to VVS1, to VVS2? If so, I really don''t see the point in going from VVS 1 or 2 to IF, as the only difference it makes is under 30x magnification. Is the only difference an H&A diamond makes under an H&A scope? Or if you put an H&A diamond next to an ideal cut diamond, could somone tell them apart? What about next to a "very good" cut?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 4/13/2005 12:13:53 AM
Author: Reisen
I guess that''s what I''m trying to get at. So is going from super ideal cut, to ideal, to very good like going from IF, to VVS1, to VVS2? If so, I really don''t see the point in going from VVS 1 or 2 to IF, as the only difference it makes is under 30x magnification. Is the only difference an H&A diamond makes under an H&A scope? Or if you put an H&A diamond next to an ideal cut diamond, could somone tell them apart? What about next to a ''very good'' cut?

i''ll be the first to admit i can''t tell the difference between an ideal cut and a H&A cut without an H&A scope.

i can''t tell the difference between a nice SI stone and a IF without magnification

i can''t tell the difference between a D color or a G unless they''re side by side.

so for me a G VS stone will look like a D IF to my naked eyes.

 

[lostdog]

"Could I tell a super-ideal cut apart from an ideal? What about from a "very good" cut?"

A better cut diamond will return more light, flash more color, and so on, in general. And it will face up as with apparently less color than its lab grade.

As some of the extensive discussion elsewhere points out, there are multiple factors that go into good (or excellent) visual performance: relationship between key facet groups, proportions of the minors, and so on. So some AGS0 or AGS1 will stand up better next to the super-premium cuts. And so on down the line. There are said to be diamonds that break all of the rules, would be graded relatively low, but are absolute knockouts in person.

So ideal, super-ideal, or one or two steps down from that doesn''t necessarily mean anything absolute. It means you will tend to get better performance. At the top of the range, you will see the arrows pattern, among other things, and light performance will be noticably different. You''ll have to see this for yourself, but it''s true. I think your real question is about the matter of degree of difference and even bigger picture, what you should be worrying about.

One of the things that makes buying a diamond so confusing is that the "education" you''ll be hit over the head with, the 4 C''s, doesn''t really adress your decision making process. It''s just the diamond grading components. 5 C''s, anywaym, but they won''t let on about that usually either.

My current opinion is it''s not color, cut, clarity, and caret (and cost) you should be deciding upon. A buyer probably is actually think more in terms of Size, Beauty, Perfection, Cost, and Value. The last being specifically the interrelation between the first four, but not the only linkage involved.

Color, clarity, and cut all relate to both beauty and to perfection. Depending which of those criteria you give the most weight, you have to address the rest in turn. And note that beauty and perfection are two seperate things. Maybe they infuence each other, but you can get more of one possiblly, without increasing the other necessarily. The idea of perfection can really be an appealing attribute of your diamond, for just the reason that it''s the best color or cut, or very close.

So does a super-ideal look different than a very good cut? Yes, from what I''ve seen. Does it look better? That depends, and depends on both stones, too. As with WF ES versus ACA, you can probably find some that are nearly identical without viewing through a loupe. Not as perfect, not as expensive, and it''s your opinion as to what is beautiful enough. A cert gives you a good idea of where a stone sits on the perfection scale, and the IS or H&A images go even futher. A better cut stone will be returning more light, but judging beauty, particularly "how much of it you need", is a personal opinion. As is the answer to how much that differnce is worth.

 

[kthan]

Wow! I trigger a lot of responses and get very useful information in this thread.
I personally agree with you "lost dog." Important thing seems to be how to (personally) set the preference, given the budget,
of balancing 4Cs by considering the other factors (as mentioned, like beauty, perfection, value, size, etc.).

In reality, to me who are in the market now, once set the preferences, to find the right stone (and to verify the information certified/advertised) seems to me more important. For example, (if I got mis-information, please correct me) only AGS certificate can give the detail information (crown/pavilion) about the cut.
Unless I know the accurate information about these data, I cannot find the right cut for my stone (whether that is ideal, very good, or good). Then, do I have to go with the AGS certified stone only? I guess not. AGS certified stones are more expensive than others. What would be the way to find the exact cut information (crown/pavilion) for non-AGS (GIA or other) certified stones? Once I got the data, I think I can determine the quality of cut by using "cut advisor." Still, I cannot find the cut data (other than AGS certified) in any one of the internet retailer (please advise me if you know the store who shows the data). Cut seems to me critical to me not only because it is more important factor (compared to color/clarity), but because it is the only factor we cannot easily evaluate/verify. I am not talking about the (super) ideal-cut only. Even if someone consider very good/good cut, to know/verify the cut information is very important.

Regular guy above suggested to ask the vendor about the cut information (they will provide it once they have the stone in-house). I want to ask how likely they provide the data, and, would the data pretty accurate (if not comes with AGS)? Probably, I need to bring the stone to reputable (independent) local appraiser to verify the information. But, I do not want to have "return/rebuy" hassle if the data given by vendor is, in general, not reliable.

Given the valuable discussions and lessons, I narrowed down my preference into two options: 1. very good or good cut; f or g colorl vs2 or si1 clarity, 2. budget under $6000, size 1 carat, hopefully very good value, hopefully brilliant shinny beauty. I do know variations with the given preferences are a lot (could over some $$$$). I do not want to ask which factor is more important wheres others are not. I do want to ask your opinion which combination would you go and why. I should have decided myself, but, as I mentioned in the beginning of this thread, I am very new to "diamond." I don't think I can make unregrettable decision without your help in this board (at least for a whlie). As always, I truly appreciate your comments in advance.

 

[Regular Guy]

Kthan,

I appreciate Lost Dog''s sensibilities, too (though, after setting "preferences," would still be challenged by a similar stone, priced the same, but with better -- say -- color).

There''s a lot here. Though I think I addressed some of your most recent question in the post 10th from the top in (b) and (c), I am more than frequently not clear.

Many vendors have diamonds in house already, they can take a GIA certed stone, and do their own analysis, giving you cut data, which is displayed ultra conveniently in the search by cut database here, and also, most frequently, this info will be better than your local appraiser can accomplish for you.

Best,

 

[Regular Guy]

P.S.

- you might find this discussion also going on, with it''s specific recomendations, valuable to you.

- where you see a word underlined, as above, with the word: "this," that will take you to a link, where you can see a related point.

- some of us get testy, and seemingly (though I have the day off, you couldn''t hardly tell) have no life...but really, if you have any questions, you should feel free to ask them. Besides being a delightful distraction for some of us, it is enjoyable to share what we know, particularly where we feel we''ve benefited from this board significantly ourselves, and would like to give back to others that follow.

Cheers,