Need some guidance on colored gemstone certification

[Violetphoenix]

Hello all!

I need some advice on colored gemstone certification. I just recently purchased another Vietnamese/Luc Yen spinel. I think this will be the last spinel...well at least for a long while. It was an eBay purchase and I was extremely nervous to buy an expensive gemstone on eBay. Anyway, it's a 3+ cts red spinel, claimed that its origin is Luc Yen. I have 14 days to return this stone if I wish to. Which lab AGL vs Gia is the best one to send it for fast turn around time. I would like a complete analysis report. Does anyone knows approximate cost? How to send it? Is it better to have the jeweler to send it for me? Thank you very much for your help!

 

[chrono]

You just purchased a 3 ct red spinel on eBay? Have the vendor send it to AGL on your behalf and have the sale be finalized contingent on the result of the lab report (it is an untreated spinel). Why do you feel the need for a complete analysis, unless I am not interpreting this correctly? Vietnam isn't a premier location for red spinels so it is not a factor in pricing. 14 days is very short for you to send the stone out yourself and you might be outside of the return window before AGL gets to it. Having the vendor send the stone also releases you from the responsibility of possible damage and loss of the spinel in-transit.

Is the sale a done deal? Do you mind posting pictures of this spinel?

 

[Violetphoenix]

Yes, I paid for it already and I didn't request for it certified
Here are some pics from vendor. Won't get the stone for few more weeks

 

[minousbijoux]

Your best bet is to wait until you receive it and take a look at whether you want to keep it. I say that because I see they have messed around with the color, and likely have enhanced the saturation because of the color of the tweezers and the hand. If you get it and don't like it, you will send it back. If you get it and like it enough to think you might want to keep it *if* it is as stated, then you will still be in an okay bargaining position as you can ask them to extend the return period long enough for you to send it to the lab. If they refuse, back it goes! AGL is better. Both labs typically take considerably longer than two weeks, so check in with AGL to find out the length of time you will need. AGL will be cheaper if you just get their GemBrief.

 

[Arcadian]

Was the stone sold as being untreated?

The reality of the matter is that if you paid by paypal, you have in reality 45 days and not 14. If the stone comes back as treated or not as a stone, You can then go back and talk to your vendor and tell them, or, if they are not responsive then you can make a claim through paypal or ebay that the stone was not as described.

 

[OTL]

OK, a year ago I bought an expensive stone from this same vendor "****72". And the color turns out a lot washed out than his photo, with negative secondary hue. I returned the stone, after the stone arrived, the vendor just disappeared. I opened up ebay one day and his ebay ID no longer existed. I have to call paypal to get my refund back. I bought several inexpensive stones from him before, but after that case, I never returned. Of course, he showed up a little while after my case, I didn't even get to leave a negative feedback because of that.

Maybe it's an incident, but I feel I need to wish you all the good luck dealing with him

 

[Violetphoenix]

Thank you all for the replies.
Yes, the description stated it's100% natural and unheated stone. My obsession with Vietnamese spinel and such impulsive buyer didn't turn out so well. The sad thing is I've never seen a red spinel (of any kind) before in real life so I don't know what to look for. Once I receive it, I will post pics here for your feedback and I definitely will email him to ask for extension of return period. Thank you!!!

 

[minousbijoux]

OTL's story is quite alarming. Its odd to think that a vendor can roll up and disappear long enough to avoid negative feedback and then open back up again - if I'm understanding it correctly. Then again, nothing surprises me these days with ebay.

Violet: next time you are thinking of making a significant purchase with a gemstone vendor:

1) make sure they have a return policy without a "restocking fee." If they don't, walk away.

2) ask questions first. Things like saturation and hue, modifiers, and cut issues such as extinction. If they don't reply, walk away.

2) make purchase contingent upon sending the stone to a gem lab of your choosing. They should agree to reimburse you the cost of the lab report if it does not come back as stated. If they won't agree, walk away.

HTH.

 

[Violetphoenix]

Dang it! Should have posted questions here first. For sure I'll go through your checklist here next time I make any gemstone or diamond purchase. Thank you again!

 

[chrono]

Feel free to ask as many questions here. There is no dumb question except those that are never asked. The aim of the CS forum is to educate so that the regular consumer can make a decision as to what they want and to get what they want at a reasonable price. Unfortunately, most eBay vendors taint the good name of the few good eBay vendors. I would not make any significant purchase of any kind without doing background research on the vendor first.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-to-coloured-gemstone-buying-read-this-first.174284/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-to-coloured-gemstone-buying-read-this-first.174284/[/URL]

 

[Violetphoenix]

Thanks Chrono, I knew I can always count on you for help with colored stones!
So, you said there's no such thing as stupid questions, but here are my questions that I feel really stupid asking... Any help from you and anyone's are greatly appreciated.

I just go over briefly what was going on after I started this thread. I received the spinel yesterday. I didn't open it because it's sealed in a package from a lab that the vendor had the spinel certified. After I first started this thread and got some good advice, I immediately contacted the seller addressed my concerns with the stone' authenticity.He was so nice and told me I can have it certified wherever I choose to when I received the stone. Since he only knows DOJI lab in Hanoi, VN he went ahead and had it certified there for me also, He then shipped it to me and I got it within few days.

From what I can see through the sealed package, it looks like the stone in the original seller's pics. My question are:

Have anyone here ever heard of DOJI lab?
Is it even reliable or even comparable to AGL?
If I want to go ahead and send it to AGL anyway, is it better for me not to remove the spinel from its sealed package? I'm not sure if I open the seal, I would loose my return privilege. I guess I should ask the seller that too, but what would be a common practice with this type of certification of a sealed pre--certified stone?

Thanks again!!

 

[Violetphoenix]

Here are some pics of the package and certification.

 

[chrono]

Good, do not open the spinel packet as yet. Some vendors consider the stone not returnable or refundable once it is opened so please check the vendor's policy VERY carefully.

I have never heard of DOJI but that doesn't mean anything. My only concerns are these:

choose to when I received the stone. Since he only knows DOJI lab in Hanoi, VN he went ahead and had it certified there for me also, He then shipped it to me and I got it within few days.

From what I can see through the sealed package, it looks like the stone in the original seller's pics. My question are:
1. Is DOJI experienced enough to tell the new synthetics apart from a natural spinel?
2. No mention of treatment and spinels are now treated without disclosure

DOJI is in no way comparable to AGL but I do not know about its reliability. Before sending the stone off to AGL, ask the vendor about the return policy (return time frame, opening of the package, refund, etc). However, even before wasting more money and time, what do you think about the spinel?

1. Do you love the colour?
2. What colour are you hoping to get? Red Orange is not in demand and should be priced much lower.
3. How is the colour shift of the spinel under various lights?
4. Is the clarity and cut acceptable to you?

 

[Arcadian]

At this point you're still within your window. If you want to go the route of sending it to AGL, do so, send it as is, don't open the package. You likely can still extend the time with ebay. Given that this was an overseas purchase they will sometimes allow it as long as the buyer dosen't make a habit of doing this type of thing.

Colorwise its nice, and if thats y our sort of thing then sure, send it. I believe you can fasttrack and do a rush job but its expensive so don't do it unless you don't have the time. Give AGL a call to see what the turn around time is http://aglgemlab.com/contact/ You can also ask them their thoughts on the lab as well. They've probably seen more than most of us have I'm sure. I've had good experience calling first before sending.

 

[minousbijoux]

At this point you're still within your window. If you want to go the route of sending it to AGL, do so, send it as is, don't open the package. You likely can still extend the time with ebay. Given that this was an overseas purchase they will sometimes allow it as long as the buyer dosen't make a habit of doing this type of thing.

Colorwise its nice, and if thats y our sort of thing then sure, send it. I believe you can fasttrack and do a rush job but its expensive so don't do it unless you don't have the time. Give AGL a call to see what the turn around time is http://aglgemlab.com/contact/ You can also ask them their thoughts on the lab as well. They've probably seen more than most of us have I'm sure. I've had good experience calling first before sending.

So question for you, Arc: is this a thing? I mean, can AGL test it without opening the seal? I think the OP needs to contact the vendor first before sending it off the AGL, because I would worry that sending it to AGL and having them open it would negate the terms of the sale with the vendor. If that is okay with the vendor, or if AGL does not have to open the packet to test (can't imagine this being the case), then its fine. Is that what you meant?

 

[minousbijoux]

Also wanted to add that VioletPhoenix, you can see (at least on my monitor I see) that they have messed around a bit in the original photos or so it appears, to emphasize the pink/magenta end of the spectrum as indicated by the color of the tweezers and such. It appears from the one pic you posted of it in its gem case (albeit with obstruction from likely multiple layers of plastic) that it does not display those characteristics in hand, but more of the flame spinel look of an orangey red. That is also what the lab shows in its description. You would then obviously need to decide whether you like the look as much or enough to keep it, and whether the price level you paid is appropriate for a flame spinel. Good places to check for comps would be places like Multicolour.com. HTH.

 

[Arcadian]

No, they still have to open it In this case it would be preferable so that they know its how it was sent and, they can verify thats how they received it.

 

[Violetphoenix]

Thank you all so much for all your replies. Sorry, I was so busy all day and didn't have time to see all the responses till now.
I actually was able to contact a vendor from whom I bought the blue spinel from. He advised that I open and inspect the stone and see if I like it. He also knew about the lab in HN, VN and told me they are only capable of doing a quick evaluation with a microscope and it's best to send it to AGL. He also look at the pics of the stone in the sealed package and told me the stone has too much brown undertone. He was right!

Anyway I got permission from the vendor to open the package and he said that he will take it back if I don't like it, however I didn't ask him about return period extension. I'll will have to decide now that I want to keep this stone or not before I send it to AGL.

I opened the package early this morning and took some pics. It was early and the sun wasn't out. Didn't have time to go outside to get more pics when the sun was out. The stone definitely looks more orange red and some flaws that I can't see from the vendor original pics. There are couple uneven/"chip like" areas on the pavilion and girdle. On the bright side, I can see that the feather inclusions look similar to my other blue LucYen spinel, but this spinel brilliancy isn't the same as my blue spinel. It looks a little "dull" or "sleepy". I don't know if that's the right word to describe it.

I wanted the stone for a sentimental reason, but I wish it was more red...though I don't really know what red spinel looks like except the ones I've seen here. May be that's how red spinels look like in real life. My expectations my not be real.

Here are some pics I took with a Thai ruby I got years ago. I'm sure the ruby is not a valuable stone as it has a large inclusion and I didn't pay very much for it. However when compare to the spinel, the ruby actually looks brighter and more lively. Don't know if that's how it supposed to be or not. I wish I've seen some real red spinel in person so I know what I want to see.

 

[Acinom]

Did you look at the stone in several lighting conditions?
Quite a stressful purchase for your. I am not knowledgeable enough to advice you, but you are in the good hands of the experts here. I will keep my fingers crossed for a good outcome for you. Either with this stone or another.

 

[chrono]

A good red spinel will look like a good red ruby in person. If well cut and clean, it should also be very brilliant, not dull looking.

 

[Violetphoenix]

I've decided to keep the Vietnamese red spinel after all. It wasn't a perfect color nor perfect cut stone but what do I know about Vietnamese spinel or anything about gemstones anyway, lol!!

As I was in the process of returning the stone, I tried to contact the seller for a return label, I found out that the seller used to sell to Antoine Hoang. I purchased a blue color shift Luc Yen spinel from Antoine before and really trusted his opinions. I consulted Antoine about this spinel and sent him some pics. (this was before he knew who the seller was). He approved the color, its authenticity, and especially the price!
The seller said he kept the rough for a long time and just recently cut it himself. He admitted the cut wasn't great because he tried to keep it above 3cts. To make the story short, I felt comfortable aftward knowing the stone is untreated and is an authentic Luc Yen spinel. I called AGL and it would take 3 weeks to get it analyzed. Anyway, not sure if I need it now....but I do want to thank you everyone who responded and tried to help ease my concerns and to look out for my best interest. You all are great people, thank you very much!!!

I got one pic that I just sent to David Klass to let him know he will be making a setting for me. He probably will have it recut and polished first. I have a couple designs in mind...would love to get some feedback.

 

[minousbijoux]

It sounds like you did a lot of homework and that you are comfortable with the stone. I bet a recut will improve its sparkle and maybe even enhance its color.

As for the setting, I love the design you've chosen. Would you have the metal oxidized?

 

[Violetphoenix]

I really like the first design and love the oxidized gold but not sure if yellow 14K will make the stone appears even more orangey as it has some orange flashes already. I would like for the metal to highlight the red color from the stone, not the brown/orange undertone. Don't know how this design would look if it was in blackened platinum. Hard decision....have to google and look up for more ideas.

 

[minousbijoux]

I really like the first design and love the oxidized gold but not sure if yellow 14K will make the stone appears even more orangey as it has some orange flashes already. I would like for the metal to highlight the red color from the stone, not the brown/orange undertone. Don't know how this design would look if it was in blackened platinum. Hard decision....have to google and look up for more ideas.

I would as TL, as she has a great handle on metal color and its effects on stones. Another way to do it is to compare it to what you might have on hand - a new penny for the rose color, and then compare it against any 18k and 14k yellow gold you might have around.

 

[chrono]

Experiment with different metal colours; you don't want a white metal to make it look browner nor an enclosed setting to make it darker. Most importantly, a deal is not a deal unless you love the stone. Love it on its own merits, not because it was cheap.

 

[minousbijoux]

Experiment with different metal colours; you don't want a white metal to make it look browner nor an enclosed setting to make it darker. Most importantly, a deal is not a deal unless you love the stone. Love it on its own merits, not because it was cheap.

Just like "trust but verify" is one of our most used expressions, I think this language should be added to our pantheon of tips for new stone buyers!

 

[Acinom]

You have gone through a lot of stress and effort. I am glad you decided to keep the stone. It's a beautiful stone with lively coloring.
That first design by David is amazing with the oxydized gold! I would experiment first with different metals and then ask David for advice once he has received the stone.

Looking forward to see the outcome!!!

 

[Acinom]

Any updates Violetphoenix?

 

[Violetphoenix]

Yes, you must have listened on the other line or something! just kidding, but thank you Acinom for your encouragement. I think I got a lot to learn. You're almost a gemstone expert now so I'm so glad you're following my thread and showing me support. Deeply appreciate your help!!!

Maria from AGL just called me minutes ago and gave me some great news. Both my color-change blue spinel and my red spinel are natural and untreated. She said there are no fractures in either stones. What I saw on the spinels are natural inclusions. She said the color change spinel is graded as violetish blue, but it does contain cobalt. That's good I supposed. The red one, she said I did good! Don't know what she meant. She said it's a beautiful red spinel. I'll receive the stones back and the
reports tomorrow and will have a better idea what they named them. I didn't ask to test their origin, but their inclusions look very similar to what I'v seen in some of literatures describing the Luc Yen's and the vendors I bought from seem to care about my sentimental reasons for getting these stones. The gentleman who sold me the blue spinel was the founder of "kingdomeoftheredspinels" gave me some pointers about Luc Yen red spinel and encouraged me to bargain it down.....before he found out that was his wholesale vendor whom he used to purchase his gemstones from. Anyway, I felt comfortable dealing with both vendors and so glad I grabbed both spinels when I had my opportunity. Will be posting to ask for advice regarding where to send my red one off for recut or re-polish. Jeff White was happy that I found my red Luc Yen spinel, as I bugged him enough about it, but he said he can't break his company policy and won't accept recut outside stones

 

[Acinom]

That's great news! This sounds very promising.
I am no expert in the field of CS by any means. Still learning. I am always glad with both the help of experts as well as non experts. Both detailed and technical responses as well as spontaneous views on color etc. are so super helpful.

Looking forward to learn what AgL says in the report you will receive. The reaction of the AGL lady sounds very promising.