Just wondering what you all think on this?

[Pandora II]

Okay, here is a rundown on the situation...

May 2006 - FI''s 25 year-old brother T has a brief 4 week relationship with 20 year-old F. She tells him she''s taking Depo and so they take no other precautions.

June 2006 - T and F break off contact.

November 2006 - F is set to join the RAF and takes a medical - they tell her that she''s pregnant. F texts T to tell him she''s pregnant and he''s the father.

New Year''s Eve - F has baby girl (T has secret paternity test done, and the baby is his.)

F comes from a not great background. Mother has new bf and he doesn''t want a baby in the house. Her father walked out when she was 12. She has very few qualifications - but is not completely stupid. F is madly in love with T.

T comes from a very loving family who have always supported him, and who are highly educated and intelligent. T want''s his daughter brought up in an environment where there are books and a proper education.

T moves F and baby into his house. F develops depression. She has counselling and takes antidepressants and is now much better. She has also gone from a size 10 to a size 20 which is making her unhappy. She is still madly besotted with T.

T is more interested in his daughter, but is trying very hard to make things work between he and F. This isn''t easy as they never had a proper relationship and he is not and never has been in love with her. F is continually pushing to get engaged and married and to have another baby.

I spent a week with them last week and had a long talk with F. She seems to get what I am saying at the time, but as soon as she''s with T it all goes out the window. She was very upset by FBIL''s wedding as T''s brother''s relationships are all very different. FI and I are engaged and younger brother has very serious gf who he worships!

T and F have big row on way home from the wedding and F hits T. FMIL (who is a trained counsellor and has been amazing over it all) is desperate to know what to do. She feels for both of them, but thinks two unhappy people don''t make good parents, and wants to know what I think they should do.

I''m trying to see the situation from an outside viewpoint and was wondering what you guys would advise...

 

[luckystar112]

Has T told F that he is purely interested in a stable home for his daughter and nothing else? Sounds like F is under the impression that baby=relationship with T! If T hasn't had a talk with her, he should. If he already has and she is choosing to ignore it, he has a bigger problem.

If he is only living with her for fear of her leaving with the daughter, maybe he should talk to a lawyer about his rights? She sounds mentally unstable.

Edit: Reading the post again...it really sounds like she just doesn't get it. It sounds like she thinks getting married and having another baby will make things all better. Yikes! If T knows deep down that isn't what he wants, I don't think he should try to make it work. It's the whole argument about what is worse...parents that are separated or parents that stay together for the kids but are unhappy.

 

[robbie3982]

I don''t think they should be living together if it''s going to create problems (which it is) since F wants a relationship and T does not. I think he should look into getting custody of the baby if that''s what he really wants.

 

[Pandora II]

Yes, he has told her this - but she is living in some fantasy world that he will suddenly fall in love with her - sadly her behaviour is working against this.

It''s the classic vicious circle - the more she demands, the further he runs, so she chases harder etc etc

He feels he is responsible for the child, but won''t sue for custody and feels bad about the alternatives - her in social housing with the baby. If she was more mature it would be easier, but while she is living in fairytale land, she can''t see that practically speaking she''s in a good situation even if it''s emotionally difficult.

She also won''t work. She''s a beauty therapist, and T has set up and equipped a room in his house so she could work from home, but she doesn''t want to. So he is working all hours to pay the mortage and bills for all 3 of them - and she resents him not being there and that he doesn''t provide all the things that she wants.

It''s a complete nightmare!

 

[chrono]

I'm thinking T should have a talk with F to clarify exactly what their relationship is.
1. They are both parents to the baby
2. He is trying to help her by letting her put up at his place
3. There are no other ties between them

I agree that if he really want to persue this, he might want to consider getting custody of his baby.

ETA
Just saw the updated post. If that is the case, it seems like she is deliberately blinding herself to the truth. As much as I hate to say it, but it is in the best interest of the child that T takes custody of him/her. T has already gone above and beyond to help F get on her feet and to support her and the baby.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,
Twenty is young to have a child, although many people are successful parents at that age. This young woman didn''t stalk him after they stopped seeing one another so i think she behaved well. Now, I think, she''s scared and has convinced herself she loves him. I am going to say something many people will disagree with but if it is possible let T raise the child giving the mom access to the child, but encouraging her to go into the RAF as planned. If he does not love her the marriage will end unhappliy later on.
Men have better qualifications (usually) and if they want to be parents, in my experience I have found men to be extraordinary as single parents. Yes, my brother raised and got custody of two girls who he raised in England(a foreign country for him and his girls) and did a far better job than his previous wife,who I am very fond of, (- just due to the different views of life they both have.
I wish him well and hope he doesn''t get married for all the wrong reasons.
Thanks''
Annette

 

[luckystar112]

What a crappy situation!
He sounds like he''s gone above and beyond trying to make it a decent household for his daughter to grow up in. But if he is unhappy living with F, AND he doesn''t want to try and get custody of his daughter, he''s kind of limiting himself as to what he can do. The only other alternatives are that he sucks it up and lives with her miserably, or he tells her to leave and she takes his daughter with him. I don''t usually suggest counseling for things, but it sounds like they need it! She needs to learn that he behavior and expectations of marriage/another baby aren''t going to fix the relationship...he needs to figure out what he''s going to do in terms of raising his daughter and dealing with F, and they BOTH need to find a way to be on the same page.
So...yeah...I suggest counseling. lol

 

[Mara]

i don''t believe in parents staying together for the good of the child. especially if the parents are very unhappy together. kids are savvy, they pick up on that. in my opinion T might be trying to do the right thing by his child with having this faux relationship with F but it isn''t going to work out in the long-term.

this story totally sounds like one that my friend''s brother had going on with his ex. but MAN she was psycho. wanted him, he wanted out. she got preggo. total basket case, ended up being a huge drinker. the poor kid was totally in the middle of the whole thing. he just wanted to do what was best for his daughter. the mom knew he only cared about the girl and so used her to hurt him any opp she got...after he finally moved out and tried to make a break, she would withhold visits from him, totally mess with his head, etc etc. FINALLY after a few years of this he was able to move on and he just got married to a new fabulous girl (who must be a saint to put up with the crazy ex)...but he lost about 4-5 years of his life trying to be there for his daughter and kept trying to make it work with the crazy mom because it was better than being away from his little girl. but in the end...somehow it has worked out. the mom is more normal now...maybe she finally realizes she will never have him back. the little girl seems okay but who knows.

in any case...T might be thinking that this is better than being away from his baby entirely...but in the long-term i have a feeling this will not continue to work. and what is he going to do? put his life on hold forever because of this child he had with a crazy girl? there''s no win win here unfortunately....he''s let himself be pulled into this trap of a situation. but i would advise extracating himself as soon as possible and start laying the groundwork now for a future without this woman, even if it means seeing his child less. who knows...she might self destruct on her own and he could have a good chance at custody.

 

[Pandora II]

Actually, counselling is a great idea.

I wonder why none of us have thought about this before...

I think it would be really helpful for them both to have a chance to talk to someone individually and together.

I think T is trying to blank the problems from his mind - I did warn him that the current scenario would happen when I had a long talk with him at Christmas. I am about the only person he will talk to about it, but I don't see him that often. (We have a mutual love of snakes which has made us good friends). He feels that if he ignores things they will just be fine eventually, but she is forcing him to confront things he can't really do anything about - you can't make yourself love someone you don't.

It's going to be a difficult future for his daughter whatever they do.

ETA All I keep thinking is how it is so important to teach boys the importance of contraception. If you're a girl, at least you have a choice whether to go ahead or not - but a man has little choice for a night's stupidity. In the UK they only really teach men about STD's and condom use, not about the consequences of becoming an unplanned father!

 

[strmrdr]

Sounds like a good lesson on why to keep ones pants zipped.
Its really a no win situation and the loser is the child.
As too specific advice the best thing that could happen would be for someone to adopt the child that can provide a stable home but that will not happen.
So counseling is about the only thing left....

 

[cara]

Couples counseling and individual counseling both might help.

If your brother is serious about trying to make things work with the mother, he needs to convince her of his sincere intentions because she sounds clingy and desperate. Maybe couples counseling could help, but maybe not. Individual counseling as well might help him decide what actions to take, either to shore up the relationship or evaluate what is best for his daughter or what would be the least antagonistic way of ending the romantic relationship but saving the parenting relationship, if possible.

Your brother should also talk to a custody lawyer to see what the chances are of retaining custody or getting 50/50 custody. It sounds like he really wants to be involved and would be a good father, but if he just looks like the breadwinner on paper this could work against him, in addition to the traditional mother-bias in custody cases.

 

[Cehrabehra]

She wants another child with him and to get married? Sounds to me like they''re having an *active* relationship and IMO every time he consumates it he''s leading her on. Its one thing to provide a shared home for a child, it''s another thing to dangle romance, sex, etc into it. I think he did the right thing moving them in - I think he did the wrong thing in letting it get this far. She''s young, she wants a family unit for her baby. He should have provided different ground rules from the start.

 

[Delster]

Oh dear, what a mess. I agree with everyone who said that staying with F will be harmful for the child if things continue as is, and that T should be careful not to perpetuate F''s fantasy of a wedded bliss, if that is not what T ultimately wants.

Pandora has T taken any steps to be appointed his daughter''s guardian? I know you work in politics so I imagine you know this already, but unless he has a parental responsiblity agreement / order he is NOT his daughter''s guardian and he has NO legal rights in her regard. Just something to be careful of, as you say he is concerned to play an active part in her life and in decisions regarding her education etc..

Make sure he protects that little girl, and good on him for trying to step up to the plate. I hope they can come to some happy arrangement.

 

[~*Alexis*~]

OK I will ring in......for those that know my past situation with my ex...this may help......

This girl is young. She did not know she was pregnant and was ok when things ended. She went into RAF and was planning on an entirely different future. However when she found out she was pregnant, her whole thought process of what her life was going to be like was completely different.

From a girls prospective.........(sorta similar sititation from my eyes...)

When he offered her a place for her and the baby, in her eyes it meant things would work out. With or without the intitial discussion on his/her part. She obviously didnt grow up in a steady household. She wants that for her child. She see''s that with him. So she feels that my marriage, she can have what she never did....see where I am going?

Here is my suggestion...

1. LOOOOOOOONNNGGGG talk
2. Counseling/Parenting classes ( reguardless of who is the better parent, BOTH should attend)
3. Start OVER.

What I mean by start over I mean....start small....movie....dinner....conversation..with no baby. See where it leads.
With unrealistic expectations neither of them will have a fair shot.

With that said, I commend him for wanting to be a great father to that little girl. GOOD FOR HIM!!!

BUT, he needs to get some things in order and have a talk before he proceeeds with legal terms. That will just make her mad and she might run. Im in the USA so things are different here than there but thats what I would do.

I am also a firm believer in not staying together for the kids. So I would have a talk with her and tell her. The more she pushes, the more he retreats. She needs to know that.

Good luck. Keep us posted.
~*Alexis*~

 

[Sabine]

I agree with what everyone has said about couples and individual counseling, but I also feel strongly that he needs to change the living arrangements. IMO, as long as F continues to live with T she will rely on him for her well-being, and will attach romantic feelings to him even if their arrangements at home are completely platonic. She needs her own place, her own job, and the ability to start seeing her future without T as her romantic partner. I applaud T for supporting her and the child, and I think he should create a plan with her to continue to support them for a reasonable amount of time for F to get on her own 2 feet. I just really think that if he continues to let her live with him without working, she will never feel like she HAS to take care of herself, and the longer she is dependant on him, the harder it will be for her to let go.

 

[Pandora II]

You''ve got it in one Alexis.

FI has 3 brothers, so they all have very little idea of how girls minds can work. They think I''m nuts when I explain that it is VERY possible for a 20-year-old girl to have decided she is on the point of getting engaged when she hasn''t even got a relationship.

FMIL is worried about the legal implications as well. The baby has his surname and his name on the birth certificate, but that''s it.
He owns his own house and FMIL is worried that if they split up she will have a claim on the property. He is convinced that financially it is best for him if they both live there, but it turns out that he thinks that she is entitled to 45% of his salary, whereas I believe it''s only 15%.

Because she lives with him she gets no state benefits (which are very generous in the UK), so she is dependent on him for everything as she has no income.

I am waiting for the local citizens advice bureau to come back to me with details of different possible scenarios so at least we all know the legal situation etc.

Personally I think she should go into the RAF, where there would be a creche for the baby and she would have a life and a career. He could see the baby at weekends etc - but it wouldn''t be like her being left in some bedsit. Then they could see if a real relationship is possible.

When I spoke to her about this, all she said was that T would have to give up his career in order to go with her - she wouldn''t contemplate anything without him...

From what T tells me, they have no romantic relationship, although he has promised not to see other people. She thinks they are a couple but that he doesn''t fulfill her idea of a perfect boyfriend.

Counselling has to be the best way forward at this point I think. It''s very easy to promise someone something you can''t give when they are all emotional in front of you! I know - I tried for over a year to love a man I couldn''t even though I wanted to!

 

[Haven]

Date: 10/2/2007 12:45:57 PM
Author: Chrono
I''m thinking T should have a talk with F to clarify exactly what their relationship is.

1. They are both parents to the baby

2. He is trying to help her by letting her put up at his place

3. There are no other ties between them


I agree that if he really want to persue this, he might want to consider getting custody of his baby.


ETA

Just saw the updated post. If that is the case, it seems like she is deliberately blinding herself to the truth. As much as I hate to say it, but it is in the best interest of the child that T takes custody of him/her. T has already gone above and beyond to help F get on her feet and to support her and the baby.

DITTO!

 

[partgypsy]

Wow, this hits a little too close to home! with my little brother, right out of high school got involved with a girl who a few months into the relationship got pregnant. They both agreed to give the baby up for adoption as they were no longer together, but she backed out at the last minute, kept the baby but didn''t put his name on the birth certificate. She used that child to keep him hostage to her whims. Anyways, my little brother kept trying to do the right thing, be a nice guy, make it all work out, not hurt her feelings, etc, but kept digging himself deeper in a hole. The end result being that he was constantly having to bend over backwards for this women just to see his own child, tried everything to make it work including having her (9 years later) move in with him, in which she immediately gets pregnant again (both times she told him she was on birth control). It has been a complete nightmare. Finally after 12 years of this he realized either he would accept he would not have any control over when he saw his children until they were of legal age, or fight for them, because it was not getting any better. (She also kept having delusions that they were going to get married, but was also abusive to him at the same time). He went back to courts and now has custody of both kids. They are in a more stable environment but again the whole thing has been a nightmare and not really an ideal situation.
Your brother has to decide
a) he trusts her to be a full time parent of the child. If so, move her out, pay the palimony and understand he may not have a full relationship with his child, and not much control over how the child is raised.
Or
b) suck it up, go to the courts and get custody of the child.

Otherwise it will just get worse.
ETA I don''t think this woman is bad, but she is not seeing things clearly and won''t until your brother makes the situation crystal clear. They should not force having a relationship because they have a child.

 

[partgypsy]

"they never had a proper relationship and he is not and never has been in love with her."

It would be unfair TO HER to be with her just for the sake of the child if he doesn''t love her. He may think he is doing the right thing, but he is not doing her any favors preventing her from moving on and finding a real relationship with someone else.
She is very young; she probably won''t understand it now but years from now she will.

However they will always have a relationship in that they will be parents to this child. Hopefully they can play nice and do what''s best for the child.

 

[stebbo]

That''s a sad story...

He has to move out as soon as possible and share custody. The financial cost will be nothing compared to what he''ll be going through. It''ll affect his ability to earn, to find true love, it''ll affect his health, the child''s health, and it''ll affect everyone who cares about him and the child.

If she''s doesn''t feel cherished by him and his wants are other, it''s only a matter of time and opportunity before they fulfill those needs elsewhere. There''s a lot more hurt coming.

btw, she only discovered she was pregnant two months before birth?

 

[Delster]

I wondered that too about the RAF having to tell her she was pregnant, that she didn't know before then? Did the baby come early?

I also thought she should go ahead and join the RAF. She'd have a great career path and job security. The benefits for the little girl would be obvious.

On the legal side of things --

Guardianship: I've had a quick mooch and my understanding is that his name being on the birth cert means nothing. He is NOT a guardian just by virtue of that - he must apply to be made a guardian. Being made a guardian will give him the right to know about her medical treatment, to receive her school reports if he wants, to be told if she's being taken out of the country. He doesn't have any of those rights otherwise. I can post links to the forms if you haven't seen them already.

Maintenance: I don't know for sure how maintenance payments etc are calculated in the UK but here it's based on the child's needs, balanced with the father's income. The courts here don't just take a fixed % of the father's income. They can take all of your income if they want, or relatively little of it. It varies from case to case. The Citizens' Advice Bureau will for sure have really good information about all this stuff, or I can do some investigation for you if it would help.

His house: I would imagine that currently she has no entitlement to his house. IF they get engaged though that could change. The Partition Acts give engaged couples legal rights akin to married couples in relation to property etc. although I believe it might apply to joint property only? Just something to be aware of.

You're absolutely right, you can't force yourself to love someone. There's not going to be an easy way out of this but I do think he needs to get out of the relationship...