in search of my dream sapphire

[slksapphire]

hello, all,

this is my first post. i have been reading up on everything i can find about sapphires as i will be buying one to set in a ring in celebration of my 10th anniversary.

i am a jewelry novice so i am pretty sure i will be buying from an established jeweler where i live (in hong kong). i have looked at a handful of sapphires in person and frankly, they all looked pretty amazing to me. i am still trying to figure out what i want but here are the broad parameters:

1. color - i think what i like is best described as vivid royal blue
2. cut (shape) - undecided but leaning toward cushion; would consider "fat" oval and emerald
3. clarity - at least eye clean
4. carat - 5-7 carats

my biggest questions:
1. heated vs. unheated (hence the large carat range above and price range below). my gut is telling me unheated ... i want a piece that i love to wear, but i also want it to be a good long-term value that i could pass down one day.
2. origin - does origin really matter IF the stone checks out in terms of color, clarity, brilliance, etc? i saw a stone from madagascar that looked really beautiful as well as some that had "origin unknown"
3. clarity - is loupe clean vs eye clean an important factor?
4. cut - how do i find "ideal" measurements (depth, etc) for cushion, emerald and oval cuts?
5. all the stones i've seen have certificates from different organizations but none had an AGL prestige. should i demand this given what i am looking for and the fact that i am a novice?

my budget is in the US$30,000-50,000 range for the completed ring though the setting won't be too expensive -- probably micropave or simple side stones.

are there any other important questions i should be asking in my search?

just to give you a sense of the type of jewelry person i am: i am a minimalist -- i only wear my diamond solitare and wedding band, no costume jewelry. my diamond is a round, 2.04 carat, ideal cut, E color, VS1 stone in a plain platinum tiffany setting. i wear it with a simple prong-set eternity band (maybe 3mm?) with F color diamonds.

look forward to getting everyone's input!

 

[chrono]

In terms of colour, do you have any pictures or links to the ideal colour for you? It helps a lot more to see something or show an example. It is very unlikely to be able to find a step cut/emerald cut sapphire but a fat oval or cushion should be easy enough. Eye clean is a good requirement to aim for and very doable.

1. Pricing will vary greatly for a heated versus unheated sapphire since you are looking at a very large stone (min of 5 carats) in what sounds like almost top colour.
2. Yes and no for origin. I wouldn't sweat it for an African stone or SriLankan or wherever it might come from as long as the other Cs are good but if the vendor has tagged a premium to a particular locale, then it'd better be a very good stone IN addition to the origin.
3. Not many coloured gemstones are loupe clean and going that route will limit your choices greatly. In any case, gemstones are sold and purchased on the basis of being eye clean. For some people, eye clean only from the top is fine and for others, they want it to be eye clean 360 degrees around.
4. I'm sorry to say there's no "ideal" set of measurements because there are so many designs alone for a cushion, emerald and oval cut. Still, there are some basic measuring yardstick of sorts that differentiate a well cut stone from a poorly cut stone, by which the lapidary cuts to maximize brilliance, minimize extinction, cover up any colour zoning, not have a window and etc.
5. Having an AGL prestige report isn't a must but will give a novice a greater peace of mind, especially when buying a very high priced item from a B&M store.

These are links to easy to understand guides to coloured gemstones and sapphires:
http://www.palagems.com/quality_4cs.htm
http://www.palagems.com/sapphire_connoisseurship.htm#sapphire_buying_guide

 

[slksapphire]

thanks for your response and the links you posted.

based on my experience, internet photos of color can vary significantly based on screens, but here is one i like:

http://www.harrywinston.com/store/jewels/rings-jewels/colored-stones-rings-rings/products/003-bluesapphiremicropavring

am i in the right zipcode for budget based on what i want?

 

[chrono]

Your budget seems doable as the colour of the HW doesn't jump out as vivid to me on my monitor.

While this is an online store, it has a wide selection of blue sapphires but heated and unheated for you to gauge colour and pricing.
http://www.ajsgem.com/blue-sapphire-gemstone-sapphire-2046340410.html

 

[Justin_Cutter]

slksapphire: I recently went through the same process. Below is a link to my sapphire engagement ring build thread. I went through 3 different stones before I found the one for me. My requirements were pretty much the same as yours except unheated was a absolute must for me and my budget was $10,000-$20,000.

My advice.... Take you time, and look at many different stones in real life if possible.
We are here to help. Thanks for sharing your journey with us and congratulations on 10 years!!!

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/5-58-ct-blue-sapphire-gemsthailand.163440/

 

[slksapphire]

justin,

first, congratulations on your engagement! before i posted here i had read your entire story -- sounds like you enjoyed the journey almost as much as the gorgeous ring you created. i did note the similarities in terms of what we were looking for (i think i may be looking for a stone that is a shade darker but again, it's hard to tell on a screen).

here is my question: how can *I* tell the difference between a stone that is in the $10-20K range and one in the $30-50K range. should i adjust my budget to the $10-20K range since you were able to find such a pretty stone at that price? what should i expect as a B&M markup compared to your search? my greatest fear is ridiculously overpaying for a stone due to my lack of knowledge and what seems to me to be somewhat arbitrary parameters for valuation.

thanks, and best wishes for your wedding!

 

[Justin_Cutter]

justin,

first, congratulations on your engagement! before i posted here i had read your entire story -- sounds like you enjoyed the journey almost as much as the gorgeous ring you created. i did note the similarities in terms of what we were looking for (i think i may be looking for a stone that is a shade darker but again, it's hard to tell on a screen).

here is my question: how can *I* tell the difference between a stone that is in the $10-20K range and one in the $30-50K range. should i adjust my budget to the $10-20K range since you were able to find such a pretty stone at that price? what should i expect as a B&M markup compared to your search? my greatest fear is ridiculously overpaying for a stone due to my lack of knowledge and what seems to me to be somewhat arbitrary parameters for valuation.

thanks, and best wishes for your wedding!

slksapphire,
Thank you very much for your compliment. Yes, I would say that the journey can be almost as fun as having the finished ring! I love the thrill of the hunt.

In regards to " How can *I* tell the difference between a stone that is in the $10-20K range and one in the $30-50K range?"

This is honestly a little easier than you might think. There are two things that I would say validate a stone jumping from the $10k-$20k range up to the $30k-$50k range. (At this level and for discussion I would like to assume that color zoning, clarity, and cut are pretty good. Obviously Carat weight is another big factor but that goes without saying.)

1. Saturation + Tone of Color
This is typically in regards to a medium to medium dark blue tone. When someone refers to a sapphire being Vivid it is in regards to the tone+saturation combination. Stones with this level of saturation tend to exhibit a "glow" of color.
Examples
Low to High Saturation





The tone of blue did vary in these pictures but I wanted to give you more of a understanding of what saturation is than the tone of blue. In terms of tone+saturation combination in my opinion the last picture is Ideal. It is also $70k Per Carat.
1. Ceylon, 2. Thailand, 3. Madagascar, 4. Kashmir.
Please keep in mind I purposely picked weak and strong examples. All of these origins can produce both poor and excellent stones.

2. Origin
This is the unseen variable unfortunately.
Lets say you had a 5ct Madagascar Sapphire and a 5ct Kashmir Sapphire; both equal in every possible way. For sake of argument, let's say both stones are the ideal "vivid" sapphire. The Madagascar sapphire might sell at "wholesale" for $15k-$30k while the "wholesale" for the Kashmir sapphire would be more like $250k-$500k.

Now as far as B&M vs. Wholesale
My stone was $12.5K "Wholesale" at B&M probably more like $17.5k-$22k and possibly more. I have seen some crazy prices on sapphires lately. The other day, I saw a sapphire with very similar parameters to mine priced at $13k. However, it was heated and only 3ct. It was also a Thai stone.

I would strongly encourage you to give one of our excellent vendors on Pricescope a try. If you can buy from a Wholesaler/Cutter you will get so much more value for money.
I am sure you can get plenty of good advice and options from others on here. I am sure there are others, like myself, seeking to aid you in your search that could provide recommendations for you. It's one of my favorite things about this community!

I personally can recommend Gemsthailand, but you will be limited to Thai and Madagascar origin with them. Please keep in mind that I really lucked out with my Thai stone. Stones like mine are very rare for Thai origin. I will be looking for something you might like.

I recommend Madagascar origin. Value for money its very hard to beat.
At the end of the day, I would say don't get sucked into the premier origins game unless you want to buy the stone strictly for investment purposes. Examples: Burma and Kashmir.

Lastly
Lab Reports
I do not like seeing stones described with words like: strong, intense, vivid and so on. These words are very open to individual interpretation leaving no scientific scale.
This is why for colored stones $5,000+ I personally insist on the AGL Prestige Report with the Grading option. This report gives you scientific results for color and that is why I love it so much!

Hope this answers some questions! Please keep us updated.
~Justin

 

[slksapphire]

justin, thank you SO much for your tutorial on tone and saturation. you are right -- it is really obvious. and i am quickly learning that purchasing a sapphire is all about tradeoffs given supply available at any point in time and, of course, budget!

based on all the good advice i've received here as well as other research, i have made some decisions to narrow the specs.
cut: "fat" oval or cushion; NOT emerald
heated vs. unheated: unheated

i went to see several sapphires today. for the first time, i saw a sapphire that was, in my opinion, truly "vivid" (probably between the 3rd and 4th sapphires in your tutorial). it simply stood out from about 8 high-quality sapphires i was looking at (6.01 carats, fat oval shape) -- i was able to pick it out on my own. in addition, it was very well cut with lots of fine facets; i shone like a diamond. BUT (there had to be one, right?) it has a quite visible inclusion on the top where the "claws" of the setting would be (the flaw is inside, not on the top or side of the sapphire so chipping/cracking is not a concern). the price -- $42,000 for the stone alone. just for kicks, i asked how much the stone would cost without the inclusion -- they thought $150,000+.

i saw another cushion cut, 6.83 carat sapphire that was probably like the 2nd or between 2nd and 3rd photos in your tutorial. the color was very even but a bit on the dark side, but it just didn't "sing", i.e., was not the bright vivid blue of the fat oval. despite being larger, it was considerably cheaper, around $32,000.

so here's my question: would you purchase the fat oval? it has 1 large, visible inclusion but the rest of the stone is almost flawless and the color is amazing.

i will not be making a snap purchase here but that stone certainly made an impression on me!

 

[slksapphire]

one other comment about the jeweler: the stone comes with a GRS report, but when i requested an AGL report, they were more than happy to look into it for me and told me they would contact AGL to find out how to get a prestige report done. they were not familiar with the report as we are in hong kong now ...

 

[Pandora II]

If you love everything about this stone and the only hitch is the inclusion, then for me it would come down to whether the inclusion was 'prongable' - ie the claws would cover and hide it.

As you say, without the inclusion the price would be much higher, so you would be getting a bit of a bargain!

 

[chrono]

Given the choice between the two, if the other one with the inclusion has it in a place where the prong will effectively hide it under the "claw", then that would be my choice since the colour is better than the other one. To me, it's all about being eye clean so if it's hidden, it's eye clean. Sort of, anyway...

 

[marymm]

OP - can you describe the nature of the inclusion? Is it a crystal, a feather/fracture, growth tubes / needles, a fingerprint, or what? Depending on what it is and how it looks and how much of the stone it seems to take up (do you only see it if you turn the stone a certain way? is it prong-able? is it more viewable from the pavilion or from the table?), it might be something you decide you can live with, if the color and shape of the sapphire otherwise meets your criteria. Think of it as the stone's birthmark; it will always be singularly identifiable to you.

(I am guessing the inclusion is not silk since the stone was heat-treated, but if it was silk inclusions, for me that would be totally acceptable. Color zoning tends to bother me much, much more than some other types of inclusions in sapphires.)

 

[Justin_Cutter]

slksapphire,
You are very welcome! Glad it helped.

Sounds like you had a great experience shopping for sapphires! I am glad to hear that you were able to see a color in person that you really liked. It will give you a good benchmark to judge other stones by.

The inclusion really comes down to your personal preference. I am a engineer so its in my nature to dig perfection... that being said I personally could accept a stone that has multiple inclusions much easier than I could except a stone that only has one noticeable inclusion. When the entire stone is perfect except one thing that makes it stick out to me even more. Please keep in mind this is my curse of being a perfectionist.

As Pandora and Chrono have already said if the inclusion could be hidden by the claws/prongs then that might be the stone for you!

Above all Color is most important. The price is high but if the color is top then it is probably justified, plus it doesn't sound like you are buying wholesale. I wish you could post pictures of it! Out of curiosity did they tell you a origin for the stone?
~Justin

 

[slksapphire]

thanks for all your input.

re: the type of inclusion, it's hard to explain without a photo but it basically looks like a medium grey blemish, about 1 mm around, that looks like the stone was "scratched" in the inside. it is NOT silk-like, or a fracture. i haven't been able to find a good description or picture of this type of inclusion anywhere.

as for hiding it with a claw, the inclusion is located where the claw would be, but it is bigger than the size of the claw so it would still be visible.

i think i have come to my answer, as i am kind of like justin -- i just don't think i can accept this type of inclusion despite the beauty of the color.

as for origin, the one with the inclusion is unknown; the other stone is from sri lanka.

for now, it is the stone from sri lanka or none at all -- more waiting (whch is fine!) i will update everyone if the jeweler is able to locate more stones that meet my specs.

also, i am relatively new to hong kong, but i am getting the sense that there is no equivalent to the diamond dealers building at 580 fifth in ny (where agl is coincidentally located). my husband bought my solitaire through a dealer in that building and it is my preference to avoid b&m if i can. but i get the sense that the diamond / jewel trade in hong kong is controlled by 5-8 large jewelers; they generally have 1 small retail outlet (these are not chains). if anyone has better information, pls let me know!

 

[slksapphire]

marymm - the stone is unheated ... silk would probably be fine with me, too, but this inclusion is clearly visible looking down on the stone from above.

 

[T L]

I wish we could have this up as a sticky thread. There have been so many sapphire questions in this forum lately, I can't keep count, and it seems we're all repeating ourselves. This is a very informative thread.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

TL,
Perhaps we could make a master thread with collected posts from everyone. Then in the future we could point people to it?
Maybe we title it: "All Sapphire Questions"?


slksapphire,
I wish you the best. Keep your chin up and keep looking
Are you willing to order a stone from a online store if they have a good return policy and reputation? That would greatly increase your selection.

~Justin

 

[Justin_Cutter]

slksapphire,
I have looked around and I have a couple options for you to check out.
http://www.starruby.in/store/star-sapphires
(I used links to there ebay listings so you can see a price if needed.) I did some research and only found good things about this company. I have also spoke with them on the phone and they were very nice.

1. http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-83-Carat-...7057?pt=Loose_Gemstones_1&hash=item3a63186811
Amazing color!!! The cut is by no means perfect but the face up view of the stone might be eye clean. Just look at that in hand shot! A very large stone as well. If the cut drives you crazy there is probably enough material there to have it re-cut and still have a big stone if you wanted.

2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-12-Carat-...0519?pt=Loose_Gemstones_1&hash=item4cef0bc547
Again not a perfect cut but nice color. Great value for money.

3. http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-83-Carat-...1901?pt=Loose_Gemstones_1&hash=item35a984617d
I don't know how you feel about color changers but there is something about this stone I really like.

http://www.burmarubies.com

1. http://www.burmarubies.com/Sap5203.html
You would need to contact them for the price. Nice color!

http://www.gemsthailand.com/

1. http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-66CT-FLAW...&otn=5&po=LVI&ps=63&clkid=4760449423472181795
Pretty good color. Nice Cut.

2. http://www.gemsthailand.com/product-detail.asp?id=74
Very nice all around stone.

3. http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-65-CT-CER...6021?pt=Loose_Gemstones_1&hash=item3c9c4eed55
Probably the nicest cut and highest clarity stone in the list, but the color appears to be lacking a little. But if you like it I am sure its a nice stone.
I have asked Gemsthailand for some hand shot pictures of these stones.

Disclaimer: I am in no way indorsed by any of these companies!
~Justin

 

[slksapphire]

justin,

i cannot express how much i appreciate the time and care you put into recommending some gems for me. honestly. i am floored -- thank you. and above all, thanks to you and all the other PSers for your honest input and advice. and TL, i think putting some sapphire posts together would be incredibly helpful. i didn't want to be repetitive with my questions (though i'm sure they were somewhat as i am just learning), but i do want everyone to know that i have searched this site exhaustively and read everything i could find about vendors, stones, valuation, etc (even some of the more "argumentative" posts, shall we say?)

i studied each of your recommendations, and they were all very helpful in forming a view about what i am seeking (more than half the battle, right?). summarizing quickly, i liked the color in #1 best, though i could probably go a shade darker (i know this is less "ideal", but it's turning out to be what i like). you guessed correctly that i can't live with the cut, however (this applies to some of the other stones, too).

i need to be upfront about how i am going to buy this stone. my preference is to buy through a b&m store in hong kong (these are not chain retailers, but small, single store jewelers that control the gem market) where i can touch and feel the stone myself. but i am quickly realizing that they may not be able to show me any stones that meet my criteria, so i would consider buying from a reputable sapphire dealer in the u.s. unlike some/many PSers, i just don't have it in me to run around getting stones appraised, certified by agl, re-cut, etc., or dealing with buying/returning internet purchases. i realize i will have to pay a premium for this, and am willing to do so. on the other hand, learning about my purchase is turning out to be fun and PS has been an amazing forum to do it!

i am quickly realizing that this search is all about tradeoffs and maybe even more importantly, available supply. i want unheated and the best color and cut possible; i am realistic that clarity is probably going to be a toss-up but i'm not willing to accept visible inclusions on top. and while i think i want 5-7 carats, i am willing to go down in weight in order to go up in quality.

so ... with that said, could you pls provide advice on how to go about identifying the best u.s. dealers who have what i am looking for or are best positioned to source it for me? i do NOT want to start another controversial thread about various vendors. yes, i have looked over the sticky thread on sites selling colored gemstones, but it is too long! i am looking for someone whose sweet-spot is unheated sapphires in the $30-50k range and i strongly prefer someone who is willing to provide an agl prestige report (which i would be willing to pay for, but they would need to send it out for me to the lab). my gut tells me i am NOT looking for a big "store" like NSC or simplysapphires but pls correct me if my impression is incorrect. i think i will reach out to richard wise, but i will certainly make more than 1 call about this so pls, i'd love to hear your favorites. in a perfect world, i would also prefer that the vendor set the stone for me in a simple hw halo ... but if that's asking too much, i can deal with it on my end!

many thanks again.

 

[T L]

TL, i think putting some sapphire posts together would be incredibly helpful. i didn't want to be repetitive with my questions (though i'm sure they were somewhat as i am just learning), but i do want everyone to know that i have searched this site exhaustively and read everything i could find about vendors, stones, valuation, etc (even some of the more "argumentative" posts, shall we say?)

It's not your fault if you ask repetitive questions, but I do think some research on this site would also be good. Since the Kate/Diana ring, there have been umpteenth sapphire questions, and searches for sapphires. The PS colored stones forum here, is a great resource, and using the search button above will help you find some extremely informative threads. However, please continue to ask questions and don't be afraid to ask. It would be great to have a subforum in here on sapphires because there are so many treatments and it is a lot more tricky to properly buy a sapphire than many other kinds of gems.

Good luck on your search.

 

[minousbijoux]

using the search button above will help you find some extremely informative threads. However, please continue to ask questions and don't be afraid to ask. It would be great to have a subforum in here on sapphires because there are so many treatments and it is a lot more tricky to properly buy a sapphire than many other kinds of gems.

You know, based on the fact that many of the newcomers ask the same questions, I think part of the problem may be that the Search button above is not super obvious - but I agree, there have been many inquiries and the information is available upon searching the site.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

slksapphire,
No problem. I will let you know if I see anything else.
~Justin

 

[slksapphire]

i have been searching the internet the past 2 days ... i admit i am still really bad at identifying good color on a screen (i think i'm much better in real life -- i manage to pick the best color (i.e., highest price) at the jeweler every time!

what do you think of these 2? i am worried that the first one is too dark and the 2nd too "murky" though this sort of thing is really hard to tell!

http://www.palagems.com/php/db_search.php?action=gemdetail&inventory_number=14737

http://rwwise.com/products/id|1082

thanks for your thoughts.

 

[pokerface]

The RW stone is spectacular. It is the perfect shade of royal blue, and in the size range you were looking for.

 

[T L]

The RW stone is spectacular. It is the perfect shade of royal blue, and in the size range you were looking for.

He has a strict return/review policy, so I would check it out with him before you decide.

 

[chrono]

Pala: I've talked to them before and they've admitted to not being able to take as accurate pictures as they would like. If interested, you might want to contact them directly to ask about colour, then have your jeweller or gemstone vendor of your choice get pricing for you.

RWise: Looks really nice in one picture but the pavilion view gives me pause. Still, the GRS description is promising. I do agree with TL to check out his return/refund policy.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

I agree with TL, and Chrono.
Both stones look nice from the limited pictures that are given. I would pick the R.W. Wise stone hands down. Love It!
~Justin

 

[WishfulThinkingOne]

I would speak to Jeff White or Richard Homer see if they can cut or find you a stone with your exact preferences.
It might be tough given you want a really expensive sapphire but worth an ask, IMO their work is second to none in terms of cut performance.

 

[T L]

I would speak to Jeff White or Richard Homer see if they can cut or find you a stone with your exact preferences.
It might be tough given you want a really expensive sapphire but worth an ask, IMO their work is second to none in terms of cut performance.

Just be aware that Richard Homer charges a very large premium for his cuting, and Jeff White also charges a premium as well. Some lapidarists charge more than others, but all will charge somewhat of a premium as they are artisans and need to make some money off of their "art work" in cutting the gem, which is fine, but you should know this. Often African stones are exported as rough, and can be very beautiful in their own right, and cut well. I like stones from Madagascar in particular. Asian stones are not allowed out of the country as rough, and often they are recut, and you're not only paying for the recut, but the weight lost in the stone.

I think Gene of precisiongem.com cuts really well too. He just hasn't gone for competitions or awards, so he doesn't mark up his cutting as much as some others. Lisa Elser also cuts really well too, and has an enormous catalog of gems.

 

[WishfulThinkingOne]

Just be aware that Richard Homer charges a very large premium for his cuting, and Jeff White also charges a premium as well. Some lapidarists charge more than others, but all will charge somewhat of a premium as they are artisans and need to make some money off of their "art work" in cutting the gem, which is fine, but you should know this.

Yes they put a premium on their time probably more than most other cutters.
However I am really not sure its such a great premium considering that it might remove one level of markup in the chain. I think it really depends on how good a deal they get on the rough. Also just to point out RH also does flat faceting and antique style cushions and Wink has some amazing videos showcasing his work.

http://www.screencast.com/users/Win...ms/media/1aaa5f08-9eed-4a96-8396-6dd837bc672f