I found a good jewler that sells his diamonds at least 20-25% below rapport price... is this good?

[lulubboy]

I found a good jewler that sells his diamonds at least 20-25% below rapport price... is this good?

Any ideas if this is a good deal?

Apparently this guys family cuts diamonds back in Israel.

Any ideas??

 

[pricescope]

Lulubboy, welcome to the forum.

20-25% below Rapaport can be good or not depending on the cut quality, grading report, and make

Check out these articles "Traps with Raps" and "RAP Diamond Prices and Internet Diamond Dealers". You can also search this forum for more discussions on this topic.

 

[lulubboy]

thanks for the insight.

However, all his diamonds are GIA certified. Isn''t that all I really need to feel assured that the diamonds are real. and good cut.

THanks.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 7/24/2005 11:41:59 PM
Author: lulubboy
thanks for the insight.



However, all his diamonds are GIA certified. Isn't that all I really need to feel assured that the diamonds are real. and good cut.



THanks.

Hello.

GIA is a good guarantee that they're real. However, the cut could be great or awful. Currently GIA does not include enough information on their grading reports to evaluate cut.

Here is some info.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/24/2005 11:41:59 PM
Author: lulubboy
thanks for the insight.

However, all his diamonds are GIA certified. Isn''t that all I really need to feel assured that the diamonds are real. and good cut.

THanks.

luluboy
what is a good cut? i''m pretty sure you can''t buy a top ideal cut at 25% back of rap.

 

[Giorgio-Loveti]

Lulubboy sometimes people will tell you anything to get you through the door. But if you go by the golden rule "If it sound too good to be true".

Dealers do give heavy discounts to the industry off Rap. I''ve seen as much as 40% on certain stones, and 10% below the rap sheet discounted prices.

The question is what kind of operation can survive on those kind of margins, we all have to make some money. You may want to check that out before you consider doing business with them.

Couple of things you may want to check on:

Will they take to stone back at the same price if you want to upgrade within 6 months.

Do they give you long enough to check and return it.

Is the stone your being offered the exact stone advertised

Is the stone set already or can you view it before it''s mounted

Even after all this bad people will always find a way to bad things to good people.

 

[valeria101]

This could be wrong, but the hint of price sounds believable - after all, even though branded cuts can be expected to sell over list price all the time, there is room for all sorts of surprises among the others. Of course, those are not just good surprises...

In the end is all about the diamond. If you do care for upgrade or return policy is your call. At least the return gives you the opportunity to reality check the value of the purchase via an independent appraiser. What upgrade policies are good for depends on what you want to do with the stone (keep it for good, change it later...).

Comparing prices with the database here would help, although, aparently online prices are always lower and hard to obtain in the usual retail conditions. If your quote sounds competitive all for the better.

About cut... well, you are the only one who has seen the stone. There are these optimized diamonds out there (branded and 'ideal' cut rounds and princess shapes and relatively better examples in any other shape, of course) The best way to evaluate quality is personal experiesnce - probably more so for diamonds than many other things since standards are relatively arcane and purchases rare. Unless you do have the opportunity to gain some familiarity with how the rocks look and what you should be looking for among the best, either a lab / technical report of cut quality or a specialized appraiser's opinion would be useful. After all, prices for the same Cs vary quite a bit (50% or more only among listings here and it can get worse) and the differences between the high and low are sometimes hard to explain.

Hope some of these random remarks help

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 7/24/2005 11:41:59 PM
Author: lulubboy

..... and good cut.

As John points out above, GIA doesn''t address the cutting at all, neither does Rappaport. For superficially similar stones, the details of the cut can make a factor of two difference in the final price.

Buy the diamond, not the paper and not the price.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[phoenixgirl]

Here's a stone with a GIA report that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, even though it's D IF.

Or there's this super deep 1 carat E VS1 that measures 5.62x5.18x3.92 (could that variance in diameter be correct? blech!!!) It seems kind of pricey for such a poor cut when you can get something like this that at least doesn't have crazy numbers for just a few hundred more dollars.

The point is, the GIA doesn't reject stones with poor cuts; it grades whatever it gets paid to grade.

 

[set2374]

If you do not have to pay brokers and finder''s fees, it is very possible to find excellent quality stones for 20 back of rap. Despite some earlier comments, I have seen ideal cut diamonds AGS0 for 20 back. To get that kind of deal though, you are not going to a jewlery store or even getting it online. You will have to deal directly with and importer/cutter. I went through the NY office of a larger india based diamond cutting company. Every stone they had was 20 back, no discussions on price, just whip out the calculator. The stones were absolutely magnificient and they did not charge a premium for AGS0 H&A stones. In order to purchase from them. They are primariliy a wholesale operation that will work with private customers. It sounds like you have a similar connection and that''s terrific. You should, however, take the time to learn about cut and know what questions to ask and what to look for in a stone. The online vendors and jewlery stores (for the most part) are purchasing their diamonds, listing them or otherwise taking them on memo and are making a profit. They have to get their stones for some price in the 20 back or less to be able to make a reasonable profit if they turn around and sell at or around rap. The people selling to them are making a profit as well. So, if you do have this type of connection, it''s perfectly reasonable to be able to get a deal at 20 back. Know what you''re getting though. GIA is not a certificate of quality. It is a grading report that will fairly describe the stones features, incluing flaws. So you need to know how to analyze this information to make wise choice. I would shop around at various other places before you go to your connection. Look at lots of stones, including ideals and well cut stones and learn about table and depth percentages, crown and pavilion angles, girdles widths and all the other goodies before you go to your family connection. Generally, you when you go to that connection, you''re going to make a purchase and it''s not a long drawn out process. You''ll need to know what you want and bring cash, so make sure you know what you''re getting that day. Good luck.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 7/25/2005 11:15:05 AM
Author: set2374
If you do not have to pay brokers and finder''s fees, it is very possible to find excellent quality stones for 20 back of rap. Despite some earlier comments, I have seen ideal cut diamonds AGS0 for 20 back. To get that kind of deal though, you are not going to a jewlery store or even getting it online. You will have to deal directly with and importer/cutter. I went through the NY office of a larger india based diamond cutting company. Every stone they had was 20 back, no discussions on price, just whip out the calculator. The stones were absolutely magnificient and they did not charge a premium for AGS0 H&A stones. In order to purchase from them. They are primariliy a wholesale operation that will work with private customers. It sounds like you have a similar connection and that''s terrific. You should, however, take the time to learn about cut and know what questions to ask and what to look for in a stone. The online vendors and jewlery stores (for the most part) are purchasing their diamonds, listing them or otherwise taking them on memo and are making a profit. They have to get their stones for some price in the 20 back or less to be able to make a reasonable profit if they turn around and sell at or around rap. The people selling to them are making a profit as well. So, if you do have this type of connection, it''s perfectly reasonable to be able to get a deal at 20 back. Know what you''re getting though. GIA is not a certificate of quality. It is a grading report that will fairly describe the stones features, incluing flaws. So you need to know how to analyze this information to make wise choice. I would shop around at various other places before you go to your connection. Look at lots of stones, including ideals and well cut stones and learn about table and depth percentages, crown and pavilion angles, girdles widths and all the other goodies before you go to your family connection. Generally, you when you go to that connection, you''re going to make a purchase and it''s not a long drawn out process. You''ll need to know what you want and bring cash, so make sure you know what you''re getting that day. Good luck.

I’ve never met a diamond dealer who isn’t interested in selling their stones for as much as possible within their own ethical boundaries and time frame.

I’ve never met a serious diamond dealer who isn’t aware that well cut stones will sell for more than similar but poorly cut ones.

A huge majority of the dealers in New York and elsewhere describe themselves as wholesalers. This has become so common that quite a few will add terms like cutters, importers, miners, and siteholders in order to carry the impression that they offer better stones for better prices than their competitors. Not that these words have anything to do with it. Be sure you understand what they mean by these terms because they are using them to give you a specific impression of their business that may or may not be accurate. A dealer who lies in their advertising is a bad sign. A wholesaler who is undercutting their own business partners is a bad sign. There are occasionally good deals to be had from the ‘connections’ but there are plenty of sharks in that arena as well and it’s remarkably difficult to tell the difference.

The ratio of price to Rap is academically interesting but it not a good shopping strategy. Pay attention to the deal at hand including the details of the stone, the details of the dealer and the details of whatever else may be added to the package that’s of interest to you.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[lulubboy]

Thanks for the help.

The seller is pretty reputable and allows you to trade in for a higher priced diamond if you want in the future at ANY time. Just pay difference. Yes, this guy only sells to private individuals.. And his shop is even located in the best part of town in Indy.

Also, my gf''s brother in law back in India is in the diamond cutting business as well. I was going to purchase some diamonds that were around 25-35% below rapport from him but wanted some bigger diamonds instead.

I understand about the dept and table and the percentages... In fact when I went to see his shop, his ad talks all about it and talks about the ideal cut and gives the same percentages listed on these sites.

Funny thing, I even asked him about pricescope and all that. And he was happy to show me how the diamonds here were still so much more expensive.

If all goes well, I will be very happy with my purchase. Many of my friends who have already purhcased a diamond were so upset at how much more they paid elsewhere... only if they waited and searched around for better connections.

Thanks.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Hi lulubboy
As has been discussed here- GIA reports do NOT tell you how pretty, or desirable a diamond is.
I''d say that the price offer of 25% below is a great indication that the stones bneing offered are less than desirable.

As Neil eloquently pointed out- it does NOT matter what soeone calls themselves- diamodn dealers are NOT going to give away well cut diamonds below market price.
Off cut stones have NO bottom in price, whlile well cut diamonds CAN command a price- a price higher than 20% off the rap list for AGS0 cut grade stones.
set2374 is also ignoring the huge advantages better sellers offer to consumers. It''s NOT free to offer money back guarantees, trade up policies, free shipping- as well as the other services consumers expect.
Indian diamond companies, for example- are NOT known for the best cuts- so they could offer 20% off on everything ( after removing anything worth more from the diamonds they show) -

Bring cash- buy a diamond for 20% off the sheet- discover you did NOT get a bargain the next day, and where is your cash????

PS- GIA does NOT certify diamonds.

 

[lulubboy]

I have gotten the feeling that people on this board have a negative tone about getting good hookups even if the place is reliable. the reason I know that is because my friend who is an advid dimond shopper just purchased 3 diamonds from him at his store for his fiance and informed me about his shop.

I understand that we should do our due diligence.

about cash.. who said anything about cash... The store takes all major CC.

Ok guys and gals... this is the store and website.

http://www.littlegoldbag.com/

enjoy..

now tell me how they plan to rip me off...?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/25/2005 9:39:54 PM
Author: lulubboy
I have gotten the feeling that people on this board have a negative tone about getting good hookups even if the place is reliable. the reason I know that is because my friend who is an advid dimond shopper just purchased 3 diamonds from him at his store for his fiance and informed me about his shop.

I understand that we should do our due diligence.

about cash.. who said anything about cash... The store takes all major CC.

Ok guys and gals... this is the store and website.

http://www.littlegoldbag.com/

enjoy..

now tell me how they plan to rip me off...?

lulubboy
nobody said anything about a rip off. why don't you post an example of what you have in mind.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 7/25/2005 9:39:54 PM
Author: lulubboy
I have gotten the feeling that people on this board have a negative tone about getting good hookups even if the place is reliable. the reason I know that is because my friend who is an advid dimond shopper just purchased 3 diamonds from him at his store for his fiance and informed me about his shop.

I understand that we should do our due diligence.

about cash.. who said anything about cash... The store takes all major CC.

Ok guys and gals... this is the store and website.

http://www.littlegoldbag.com/

enjoy..

now tell me how they plan to rip me off...?

lulu... the advice that Neil is offering is right on. Nobody here is against a good deal, everyone is. I have been buying diamonds in the industry for roughly 25 years now and am very familiar with the types of diamonds that are sold and traded at 20-25% back and even at the real wholesale level we're not talking pristine goodies. We've experimented with stones like this and even have some on our site ... our educated consumers see and know about them but they sit ... many for years. The difference is that people know precisely what they're getting for the price. Do as DF requested ... post the stats. Let's see some details (table size, crown angles, pavilion angles, girdle, culet at the very least) and get an indicator if this is the deal its made out to be or if you're getting snowed. We'll let you know if its worth further investigating or not. This forum is designed to help consumers and steer them in the right direction. My counsel would be no different.

Regards,

 

[MrsFrk]

Lulubboy, we have a chain store around here that touts the same "our family cuts our diamonds in Israel so you pay less" and their stones are generally mediocre, and not a great value. Some would say a quasi-ripoff.

This forum is full of great advice and info, bring us some hard data on a particular stone, and you will receive more constructive feedback than you can imagine.

At this point, it seems like you are not interested in advice, but being told that this place is a deal. If something is too good to be true, it usually is. If they were really selling great diamonds that cheaply, wouldn't they have either: A) driven all of their competitor's prices down, or B) driven all of their competitors out of business completely?

 

[icekid]

like everyone has said, I highly doubt this guy is going to sell you diamonds at a loss. And if he could sell them for more, then why wouldn''t he? Sure, I''d love to get a stone cheaper- but, I would be skeptical.

Anyone else think it''s bizarre that this jewelry store has a picture of a half-naked woman???

 

[lulubboy]

Ok. thanks for educating me. I am going to check out and post what I found out there in the next few weeks when i am back in that area.

So.. The GIA certification tells me a good amount of material...

but what we are fishy about is the CUT.

So how do you evaluate CUT? Is that information with the diamond certification somewhere.. I am sure the dealer will know.

What are the ideal cut values so I can compare when I am there... are the cut nuumbers referring to the depth and stuff like that?

Thanks.

 

[lulubboy]

ok.. just read the site about cut.


Do you guys actually briing with you some sort of ideal scope reader to look at the diamon??

Also I looked at the table of vaules such as table % and depth %.

Last time I was at the shop, they had these numbers on the diamonds.

Also whatelse should I be looking for???

and how to measure it.

Thanks again.

I will prob use the same criteria for my gf''s brother in law cause I can definitely get around 30-35% below rapport cause of the direct connection.

 

[pyramid]

http://www.ideal-scope.com/


This is the link where you can obtain an idealscope from. The poster GarryH (CutNut) on this forum is the inventor.

 

[phoenixgirl]

If you want to know the nuts and bolts of the cut, you need the crown and pavilion angles. These are shown on AGS reports, and the percentages (which give basically the same info but are a bit less accurate when using the "cut advisor" on this site) are shown on EGL reports, which tend to be discounted a bit below GIA and AGS prices due to reputation for being slightly less strict (might bump up the color or clarity over what the GIA or AGS would give it). So the easiest thing to do is find a stone with an AGS report and check out the cut info for yourself. An AGS cut grade of 0 is the best.

However, the guy you are dealing with might stick mainly with GIA since it has the most name recognition among the general public. So then, if you still want to know the nuts and bolts, you need to get a sarin report. This requires certain equipment that your guy may or may not have. He could always send it somewhere for evaluation, but this would be time consuming and costly to do for each and every stone.

So that''s where the ideal-scope comes in. At least this way you can evaluate the symmetry and light leakage with your own eye. Since you''ll be looking at your diamond and not making complex math calculations with it, there is nothing wrong with making sure the table and depth are ok and that it looks good under the ideal-scope. We sometimes get a little carried away talking about angles here, but you have to remember that those numbers are averages anyway. Once you get the habit of using the ideal-scope, you should be able to tell a well-cut stone from an average or poor cut one. Table and depth should eliminate the really crappy stones, but can''t be used alone to judge cut (just like when you calculate your BMI using your height and depth, it doesn''t know if you are muscular or just fat).

Anyway, good luck, enjoy the shopping process, and let us know how the proposal goes.

 

[lulubboy]

LOL about the BMI.. just learned about that in school.

do you guys/gals really buy the ideal scope and take it into the store to look at diamons??

So am I getting this right...

if there is leakage/ white color/ pink and NOT red it is bad.

So what I want to see is ALL RED COLOR right?

 

[Rhino]

Date: 7/26/2005 10:22:45 AM
Author: lulubboy
Ok. thanks for educating me. I am going to check out and post what I found out there in the next few weeks when i am back in that area.

So.. The GIA certification tells me a good amount of material...

but what we are fishy about is the CUT.

Correct. On the current GIA Reports very little is mentioned about cut and the only 2 metrics that are actually graded are polish and symmetry. On the upcoming reports which will be released later this year these will only be 2 out of 7 metrics considered for the cut grade. All of the metrics that will be considered (and these are aspects many of us have been considering here on this forum are...)

1. polish
2. symmetry
3. durability
4. weight ratio
5. brightness (contrast)
6. fire
7. scintillation

There are ways for testing each of these with observable results which can be verified scientifically.

So how do you evaluate CUT? Is that information with the diamond certification somewhere.. I am sure the dealer will know.

It depends on who you're talking to. Some of us use mutliple tools/technologies to evaluate cut. Currently this information is not included on GIA Reports and while the AGS has released thier new cut grading system (reflected on their current reports), they don't give individual scores/ratings for each stone how it does with regards to those metrics. Don't be so sure the dealer is going to know all of this. Many in this industry do not have a handle on how these metrics are measured and analyzed. The pitch at most jewelry stores is still "look at it ... you like it? BUY IT!" without disclosing much if any information about cut.

Date: 7/26/2005 10:22:45 AM
Author: lulubboy

What are the ideal cut values so I can compare when I am there... are the cut nuumbers referring to the depth and stuff like that?

At this moment if you want to find out whether you are looking at an ideal cut diamond you need, at the very minimum, the follow measurements.

1. table %
2. crown angles
3. pavilion angles
4. girdle thickness
5. lower girdle length
6. star facet length
7. minimum and maximum diameter and
8. depth measurement

There are multiple sets of angles/measurements that will produce "ideal" results but seemingly more that produce less than ideal results. Knowledge of the facts is key.

Regards,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 7/26/2005 11:10:27 AM
Author: lulubboy

do you guys/gals really buy the ideal scope and take it into the store to look at diamons??

So am I getting this right...

if there is leakage/ white color/ pink and NOT red it is bad.

So what I want to see is ALL RED COLOR right?

Here''s a graphic that demonstrates what common and uncommon diamonds look like under reflector technology. The top 2 are common kaka which are a dime a dozen the bottom 2 represent less than 1% of diamonds cut in the world.

I would point out however that while I am an advocate of reflector technology this is only 1 tool for assessing cut and there are certain limitations with this tool that you should learn about as well before taking the plunge.

Regards,

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/26/2005 10:33:05 AM
Author: lulubboy
ok.. just read the site about cut.


Do you guys actually briing with you some sort of ideal scope reader to look at the diamon??

Also I looked at the table of vaules such as table % and depth %.

Last time I was at the shop, they had these numbers on the diamonds.

Also whatelse should I be looking for???

and how to measure it.

Thanks again.

I will prob use the same criteria for my gf''s brother in law cause I can definitely get around 30-35% below rapport cause of the direct connection.

lulubboy
i can definitely tell you, you can''t get a nice cut stone for 30-35% below rap.these stones would of been long gone before you ever get a chance to buy it. if you can get a 3-D sarin report, that report will give you all the info on the cut.

 

[lulubboy]

I am not really looking for an AMAzing 1% type diamond.

Honestly I am fine with the avg diamond most people get at decent end stores... not those at the mall.

But armed with this info I am sure I can cut a good deal somewhere.

So where are the ideal cut ranges and numbers.. aka normal ideal values to the things that was listed above?

I can ask them about the diamond but I need to know the ideal ranges.

Also the only reason I say I could get the 30-35% off rapport is from conenctions through family NOT through a vendor.

Like I said... my gf''s brother in law has a diamond business... When her sister got married.. she got a 2 Carat for less than 10K.. And the numbers are kosher.

Just because many people are not able to get these deals.. does not mean that they don''t exsit.

Thanks for all who posted advice. I really appreciate the professional help.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Lulu- there''s pleny of good info here- I do have a differing point of veiw.
If you are shopping "IdealCut" diamonds you''ll eed all the facts and figures- many of which are NOT opn the current GIA report.

You do NOT need to know crown angles, or pavillion depth to know if a diamond is well cut ( many non "Ideal " stones are extremely well cut)- any more than you need a person''s weight to sy if they have a good body.
If they are fat, it''s obvious, if they are too thin as well.
In the middle- ah- now we have some questions.
I like stocky, you like someone with less meat on the bone.
Who''s right?

When you do your shoppping, please try to find a store that sells the "Ideal Cut" diamonds and look at them for yourself.
Then finds another seller who does not offer the ideal cuts - this way you get to see both.
If you can see a difference, and like the H&A or Ideal Stones- then the Ideal Scope will give you information to help you buy a great H&A stone.
Otherwise, it''s completley useless.
SO if you prefer the "Ideal" cut look, go with these tools and ask for crown angles and all that good stuff.
If you want a really well cut diamond that looks good to you, there are a lot of avenues open to you.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 7/26/2005 1:22:40 PM
Author: lulubboy


So where are the ideal cut ranges and numbers.. aka normal ideal values to the things that was listed above?

perhaps THESE ?



I can ask them about the diamond but I need to know the ideal ranges.

You can probably ask for 'AGS0' proportions, but now AGS has expanded its criteria for ideal cuts to include optical measurements and even more stats. The new standards are harder (if not impossible) to bootleg. Otherwise, what is 'ideal' depends on who is talking. AGS had some opinion which changed, and other labs have their own, different standards.




... she got a 2 Carat for less than 10K.. And the numbers are kosher.

if you know those numbers are ok, how about these that interset you ?

I hope these guys who would give you the goo deal (is it 20-25 or 30-35 back?) can also be trusted with quality. Otherwise, numbers will not help much.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 7/26/2005 1:22:40 PM
Author: lulubboy

So where are the ideal cut ranges and numbers.. aka normal ideal values to the things that was listed above?

To my knowledge GIA and AGS have not yet released the tolerances of their parameters for ideals to the public yet. AGS has released cutting guidelines for factories to follow but the charts are so huge space does not allow for publishing plus the fact they are copywrited. Some of us have them on CD and can demonstrate to clients who ask how one can tell if a stone is ideal according to the new standards or not for either system but those who have this info at this point in time is very limited.

Get the parameters I''ve outlined in my previous post and we''ll be able to tell you if any particular stone qualifies or not.


Regards,