How “ideal” is this diamond at a local vendor? Please help newbie!

[1001smiles]

Hello.

My first post here. First, let me thank the forum for all the education in choosing my e-ring. I really knew nothing about diamonds before.

So I am facing the common dilemma of buying online vs. a local vendor. I’ve pretty much settled on getting a good cut. I approached a local reputable vendor (small chain in so. CA). Got tired of the sales pitches from the floor staff and got to the store manager. He was very knowledgeable and helpful. They didn’t have anything in stock that fitted the description of what I wanted (1.25 ct round, ideal cut), but got 5 stones in within a week for me to look at. I narrowed it down to one (certificate info below).

Of course the price was way too high (11.4K). So I sent him some price quotes online and he agreed to drop the price for me to 10.4K, but voided the store warranty (if the diamond chips or falls out). They are only holding this stone until Sunday for me, I am asking for some help in deciding.

The pros: I have already seen the stone. It looks very crisp and sparkly, can barely see any inclusions even under a microscope, and you can observe a pretty clean H&A pattern under a scope. It has AGS000 certificate. He said it was cut by Leo Schacter, but that means nothing to me… Plus, they are a reputable local vendor and they are also making the custom setting for me.

The cons: Price may still be a bit too high, especially considering taxes. There’s no store warranty on the stone.

So the question is: am I better off getting what I have already seen and liked locally or ordering something I haven’t seen off the internet (and potentially saving some money but running the risk of not liking it). Also, on the warranty, does insurance cover lost or damaged stones? If so, there’s no value in the store warranty anyways, right?

And most importantly, do you think this is a good diamond and a fair price???

Much appreciate all of your help!

AGS000
Carat: 1.22
Measurements: 6.85-6.89 x 4.23
Color: G
Clarity: VS1
Polish/symmetry: ideal
Fluor: negl
Depth: 61.6
Table: 56
Crown Angles: 34.7
Clean H&A pattern under scope.
Price: $10,400 (plus tax)

 

[belle]

dropping the price and voiding the warranty is ridiculous. the stone is not priced near that good. considering you can get a diamond that is just as good or better online for at least 1-2k less seems like a no brainer. however the decision is entirely up to you. if you want to get an idea of pricing, enter your specs in the ''pricescope your diamond'' search tool above. best of luck to you!

 

[1001smiles]

OK, good point. I just did a search here for 1.2-1.3 ct, AGS0 H&A, G VS1. The only selections were from Whiteflash and ranged from 10K to 10.4K. But there''s no tax. On the other hand, you are paying 10K for something you haven''t seen.

 

[indecisive]

I just did a search and most of them were in the 9k range. Also if you did a search for 1.1-1.3 they are between 8-9k with some at 10. It seems like you could get a better deal somewhere else without dropping the warranty.

 

[belle]

i just did a search with the very narrow parameters of 1.20-1.30 g/vs1 and got $7410 for a 1.23 on the low end and $10403 for a 1.30 on the high end. well under what you are looking at. i, like many others here, have purchased from wf and their quality and service are excellent. they have a generous return policy, so if for some reason you are not happy with what you buy you can send it back.

 

[Lorelei]

I agree with Belle, you could find an INCREDIBLE diamond with an online vendor for a far more reasonable price, especially if you want a H&A, a vendor such as Whiteflash has all of the cut info you could want to make a great choice easily.

For example check out this diamond from Whiteflash - looks amazing and well within budget, just to give you an example of what else is out there. It looks eyeclean too being an SI1.

 

[1001smiles]

Thanks for the suggestions!
Price aside, is this a good stone (based on the description alone)?
Appreciate all your help!

 

[Lorelei]

It could be a good diamond but take a look at the example diamond I linked for you in the above post, the price is $8,315 and the diameter is a little larger too which may make it look slightly bigger, compared to getting on for $11k for the one you have seen - JMO but I know which choice I would make. Plus too if you purchase from WF you will get a PS discount if you pay by wire. However if you truly love this diamond and feel it is worth the money then that is what matters. Many of us have bought online with fantastic results, it can need a leap of faith but it can be well worth it. Plus vendors have a good return policy which gives you time to get an independant appraisal which they encourage you to do and to return it if you don't like it. Also some online vendors have a trade in policy which may be helpful a few years from now, if you ever decide to upgrade.

 

[aljdewey]

Sticking to just your questions:

Is it a good diamond? Looks like it COULD be, but you haven''t listed the pavilion angle, so can''t answer that completely.

Is it a fair price? Well, that depends on your value system. I think it would be a fair price IF they weren''t "voiding the warranty". Considering that they are, and considering you can get equal quality for the same price without sacrificing the warranty, I''d consider it less of a fair price.

 

[1001smiles]

Thanks.
I think the pavillion angle is 40.7, assuming I''m looking at the right thing... I have no idea what that means...
As for warranty, there is no warranty against diamond chipping or falling out of the ring if I get the stone online, so it''s not different from what I am offered at the local store (I guess that''s somewhat fair).
There''s also a question of SI1 vs. VS1. I looked at two SI1 stones that were also AGS0, and the VS1 just looked much "crisper", it that makes sense. All stones were eye clean and you could barely find inclusions even under a microscope. So I''m just a little wary about getting an SI1 even it''s eye-clean. And as soon as you go to VS1, the price jumps to about 10K-ish (again, based on a WF search).
I wish this wasn''t so stressful...

 

[Rod]

If the stone really is a Leo Shacter, it's a "branded stone." Does that mean it's better, probably not, but one does pay a premium for branding. For someone who wants a good stone and isn't bothered about knowing anything about buying diamonds, and is willing to pay a premium for a name, buying a branded stone can be better than just taking one's chances on a non-branded diamond.

Should you buy this stone? We can't tell you. It seems the offer to elliminate the warranty is rediculous and I would personally run from such a deal.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[jaz464]

When you say that you looked at VS and SI clarity diamonds that were all completely eye clean but the VS looked more "crisp," that is not due to the clarity rating. Were they all the same color?

 

[indecisive]

" And as soon as you go to VS1, the price jumps to about 10K-ish (again, based on a WF search)"

Whiteflash gives a PS discount if you do a wire transfer so if you go to the "Pricescope Your Diamond" feature at the top of the page and enter your specification it will give you the PS prices. They are within the 8-9k even at a VS1. The decision is obviously up to you but it doesn''t sound like a great deal.

 

[Lynn B]

Unless I missed it above, no one addressed your other question about insurance. Yes, insurance (as a separate rider to a home-owner''s policy, etc.) does cover loss or breakage. At least mine does, and I believe that to be pretty standard. So losing that store warranty is probably no big deal if you plan to keep it insured, anyway.

And, oh, something else I wanted to mention. The "crispness" that you mentioned... I know exactly what you mean, and I really doubt that it had anything to do with clarity of those stones. I have had two killer AGS-0, ideal cut stones -- a 1.53 G/VS2 and now a 2.36 J/SI2. My new stone is exactly like you described... just "crisper" looking. And obviously it wasn''t the clarity!

The stone you found sounds like a beauty. Personally, I''d buy online and get more diamond for the money - but I understand that''s not for everyone.

 

[1001smiles]

Thanks for all of your comments.
I''m a bit confused about one point in the last few replies. If the "crispness" of the stone is not due to clarity, that how do you know unless you look at it in person? And how can you guess this if you are ordering online just based on the certificate (and a photo, which doesn''t really mean much because you really need to see the stone perform in different kinds of lighting).
I thought the little exercise we did at the store was helpful, where we took 5 stones of almost identical certificate numbers and compared them. I was able to pick out one that was "crisp". If you can''t tell this from the numbers and it''s not due to clarity/color, and you can''t compare stones that you buy online side-by-side, then how do you really know what you are getting? Wouldn''t this be a reason to buy something local, even if you pay a premium for it, at least you know what you are getting?

 

[indecisive]

Most online stores have a pretty decent return period so you could pick a extreely well cut stone and have it sent to an appraiser near you so you could see if you liked it or not and if it looked "crisp" to you. If not you could return it an find one that speaks to you. The cut of the diamond is what makes it look bright and sparkly, not the clarity. But if you are set on this stone then go for it.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Hi,

You are under no obligation to keep a stone you order and decide you don''t want. Most of the jeweler''s recommended on this site allow 3-4 weeks for returns. All it costs you is the shipping charges, which is something like $35 each way. So in the unlikely event you didn''t want to keep the diamond, you''d only be out $70. I say unlikely because if you get an AGS000 G VS1 or 2, you are probably going to love it! I went to another jewelry store today to look at size and color as well. And I''ll tell you, I just won''t pay $1000 extra to buy a diamond locally. But if you really, really loved that diamond and don''t mind paying a little more, then I think it sounds like a very nice diamond!

 

[Lynn B]

Date: 1/27/2006 4:47:36 PM
Author: 1001smiles
Thanks for all of your comments.

I''m a bit confused about one point in the last few replies. If the ''crispness'' of the stone is not due to clarity, that how do you know unless you look at it in person? And how can you guess this if you are ordering online just based on the certificate (and a photo, which doesn''t really mean much because you really need to see the stone perform in different kinds of lighting).

I thought the little exercise we did at the store was helpful, where we took 5 stones of almost identical certificate numbers and compared them. I was able to pick out one that was ''crisp''. If you can''t tell this from the numbers and it''s not due to clarity/color, and you can''t compare stones that you buy online side-by-side, then how do you really know what you are getting? Wouldn''t this be a reason to buy something local, even if you pay a premium for it, at least you know what you are getting?

OK... good questions, and I''m not sure I have any technical answers for you. Assuming all are "ideal cut" with great specs, I don''t know WHAT it is that makes one stone "crisper" looking than another. But I have seen it myself with my own two eyes and I know what you are talking about. But maybe we need to put it in perspective a little bit. My first stone was a gorgeous diamond. I never thought it was "blurry" or "hazy" looking... or whatever the "opposite" of "crisp" would be.

I was 100% thrilled with it. It was only when I upgraded, and could compare the two diamonds side-by-side that I noticed "Hmmmm... the new stone was somewhat "crisper"/"sharper" looking...", and I liked the look. But remember, in my case (and I''m guessing yours, too) it took close scrutinization between stones to *notice*. A casual observer, even looking at both of my stones, would never have said, "OH! That one looks fuzzy!"

So I don''t think that''s a good argument against buying online. Both diamonds I had were gorgeous. The slight nuances I noticed were just that -- "slight nuances", part of the "personality" of the diamonds, what makes each diamond unique and one-of-a-kind.

HTH.

 

[Lynn B]

BTW, here''s a photo of the two diamonds side-by-side.

 

[Rod]

Well there you go and that's a really really good question. Other's have commented the crispness you saw is not likely due to the clarity grade and I'm betting they are absolutely correct. It's the CUt CUT CUT that is giving that stone such clarity. There are several VERY reputable vendors on this site and chances are they have comparable, if not better stones, but you are correct in that you can't immediately see them. You can do one of two things though and that's either buy a stone and return it if it doesn't meet your expectations. Or, you can have a stone you select through these vendors sent to a local appraiser in your local area, and you can actually see the stone and have an assurance from a good appraiser that you are buying a quality stone that meet's your needs.

This isn't to say you shouldn't buy the stone you've seen in person. It could be the right stone for you. Only you can make that decision.

 

[belle]

Date: 1/27/2006 4:47:36 PM
Author: 1001smiles
Thanks for all of your comments.
I''m a bit confused about one point in the last few replies. If the ''crispness'' of the stone is not due to clarity, that how do you know unless you look at it in person? And how can you guess this if you are ordering online just based on the certificate (and a photo, which doesn''t really mean much because you really need to see the stone perform in different kinds of lighting).
I thought the little exercise we did at the store was helpful, where we took 5 stones of almost identical certificate numbers and compared them. I was able to pick out one that was ''crisp''. If you can''t tell this from the numbers and it''s not due to clarity/color, and you can''t compare stones that you buy online side-by-side, then how do you really know what you are getting? Wouldn''t this be a reason to buy something local, even if you pay a premium for it, at least you know what you are getting?

what are ''identical certificate numbers''?

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/27/2006 4:09:30 PM
Author: 1001smiles

I looked at two SI1 stones that were also AGS0, and the VS1 just looked much ''crisper'', it that makes sense. All stones were eye clean and you could barely find inclusions even under a microscope. So I''m just a little wary about getting an SI1 even it''s eye-clean.

If the stones were both eyeclean, then the reason the diamond looked "crisper" wasn''t likely due to clarity; it was likely due to cut proportions. As such, going to an SI1 with the same light performance would look identical.

What I''m trying to say: "crispness" isn''t a function of clarity (when both are eyeclean), it''s a function of cut.

 

[Lynn B]

what are 'identical certificate numbers'?

(*•.¸(`*•.¸¸.•*´)¸.•*)
¨`•.¸ *belle*¸.• ´¨
(¸.•*'(¸.•*´ `*•.¸)*•.¸)


Belle, I took that to mean all the diamonds had nearly identical specs. Wonder if I was right??!!

 

[1001smiles]

Yep, I meant all specs on the certificates were very close. The runner up was AGS0, 1.24 ct, H SI1, depth 61.9, table 55.0. Also, eye clean. But didn''t make a perfect H&A pattern under a scope and just looked not as "crisp". You are right, probably because of the cut. The store asked $8600 for it, including warranty. But I just really like the way the other one looked, even though it costs more...

On a separate note, Lynn, I really liked your setting of the smaller stone (with the eternity-band type setting). Do you have any pictures of that ring? I am thinking of doing something similar for the band with a small halo around the stone... But that''s a separate issue, I just need to decide on the center stone for now...

Thanks again to all of you for your help!

 

[belle]

''very close'' only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

there really isn''t such a thing in diamonds, and you would have to have much much more information about them to even come a little close! the ''crispness'' that you are referring to could have been greatly impacted by differing minor facet lengths or even girdle treatments. i can tell you that it was not due to clarity...unless there were large clouds or something of that nature.
it sounds like you love this stone, so there''s really nothing more to say except BUY IT.

 

[Mara]

lol belle..

original poster...i only buy diamonds online now. why? because i did the offline thing and for me it wasn''t any better than it could be shopping online. i found a great vendor who i use consistently (Whiteflash) and i trust them to eyeball stones for me and tell me what they think. they also have a return policy so i can send it back if i don''t like it and it does not speak to me. but i have not been displeased with a stone from them so far and lets see, i have considered/bought/upgraded to about 5-6 of their diamonds so far.

so for me shopping offline isn''t better just because i can see a diamond in person. then again WF is just a $200 plane trip away from me, so if i was going to spend $8k, i''d probably go over and look at what they had in person and make a decision that way.

personally people keep telling you things that it sounds like you don''t want to hear. the numbers on this stone seem very good and if it has that crisp beautiful look to your eyes and you don''t mind overpaying a bit for it, then buy it. good luck!

 

[Lynn B]

Date: 1/27/2006 5:18:29 PM
Author: 1001smiles
...On a separate note, Lynn, I really liked your setting of the smaller stone (with the eternity-band type setting). Do you have any pictures of that ring? I am thinking of doing something similar for the band with a small halo around the stone... But that''s a separate issue, I just need to decide on the center stone for now...

Do I have pictures of that ring???!

Does a duck have webbed feet?!

I have pictures ALL OVER this place. I will give you a few links... but here''s a photo to get you started! (BTW, the new diamond is in the same setting, which was a custom job from Whiteflash.)

http://www.pricescope.com/forum/steam-room/ta-da-t31435.html

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/lets-show-off-our-2-3-carat-center-stones-here.31514/

 

[1001smiles]

Beautiful ring, Lynn. That''s funny, it''s exactly the band I picked out at the local store (trying to decide between 2-point and 3-point stones for the band). They will make a halo for the center stone that looks exactly like the band. Maybe some decades later I can upgrate to a 2-ct too

Thank you all for your help! Although I still can''t decide...

 

[dhog]

Date: 1/27/2006 7:46:51 PM
Author: 1001smiles

Thank you all for your help! Although I still can''t decide...

the best way for you to get the most value for your dollars is to locate a stone on the internet with a return policy. purchase it,take it to the local store and compare it. this is what I did with a dealer locally. you might be amazed at what you can get from the web.I was concerned about internet purchases but after dealing with white flash I know where to buy diamonds on the web now. as a consumer, and only a consumer I feel we need to be more informed. the diamond I purchased was put side by side with a HOF DIAMOND and I kept the one from white flash.below is a actual photo taken of this diamond before it was set to show you the hearts
I saved 13,800 plus tax on this purchase.Good luck with your venture as I know where your coming from

 

[valeria101]

'Ideal' proportions is a pretty tight standard, and H&A is a very, very strict one. Which IMO, means that once you have seen one... any other stone with similar qualifications will look pretty much alike cut-wise. There may be subtle differences apparent to the truly obsessed (you may guess I like that 'sport' too - just look at that embarrassing number of posts!

), but I strongly doubt you may find another AGS0 H&A cut round anything but surprisingly alike the one you have seen already.

These being said, it sounds like the new price (10.4k) is not much 'worse' than what comes online, except those stones would also come with at least some of the service the local jeweler voided in defense of his initial pricing.

To play a bit with cost & looks, at the very least I would seek VS2 or Si1 clarity, if there are matching listings of AGS0 H&A worth such options. At least VS2 should make no conceivable difference aside price (and even that not much - such stones are listed for about $9k). There is good to be said about eye clean SI1s too (about $8000).

My 2c