"Hearts on Fire"? Help me pick something just as nice!

[jonsey]

I have been looking for a 2ct+ RB, very well cut, as an upgrade for an anniversary. Today I went to the top jeweler in the state, they had a huge collection of "hearts on fire". I could barely believe how brilliant they were. Amazing. I though "this is it, just what I want". Unfortunately, the price was just as incredible. What really caught my eye was how white the K stone faced up: it looked as nearly as white as the H it was next to. Pretty amazing. Unfortunately, the price was the downside. $26,600 for a 1.8ct K/Si1.

If I purchase from a PS vendor, how do I know that I am getting a diamond of this light quality? There are a ton of diamonds here in the search function, most of all of which do not have pictures.

1) do I just look for an AGS Ideal and hope for the best?
2) How do I dig through the 250 diamonds that come up on search to find one that would be at the top of the cut heap?
3) can you help me find a few to consider?

I called a PS vendor, they said they do not provide idealscopes, I would have to buy the diamond and order a kit. Another vendor said "I can bring in anything, but you have to tell me what stock you want". Which is difficult, without pics. I don't have anything more than the grading, really.

Here is what I want:
Budget $15,000
Color J-K (as long as it faces up white, like the Hearts on Fire K I saw today)
Size: 2.1 or larger
Clarity: eye clean
Cut: top shelf, at least AGS Ideal

Cut is the most important thing here. I know that I can reliably get something from Whiteflash or Brian Gavin; but I don't need to pay for the big upgrade policy and whatnot. I just want a beautiful diamond, it doesn't have to be branded something special.

Please help me find some "ideal++++" diamonds to consider, if you possibly can, thank you!

 

[Niel]

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R210-3ZBQ4T

 

[jonsey]

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R210-3ZBQ4T

To get that level of brilliance, what I am I looking for in an idealscope or ASET? What makes the diamonds I saw today so incredibly brilliant?

 

[Gypsy]

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R210-3ZBQ4T

To get that level of brilliance, what I am I looking for in an idealscope or ASET? What makes the diamonds I saw today so incredibly brilliant?

Please read this for the answer to your question above: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/likelihood-of-finding-a-signature-super-ideal-diamond.174235/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/likelihood-of-finding-a-signature-super-ideal-diamond.174235/[/URL]

Super-ideals like Hearts on Fire demand a well earned premium. Your budget is going to make you chose between size and 'ideal' cut precision hearts and arrows faceting. You can't have both. You would need a larger budget to get both.

Options with cut perfection in budget (or very close to it):
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3225748.htm
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.812-k-vs2-round-diamond-395.00--104074992013
http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity-new&id=1259
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3189868.htm

Option with both size and cut perfection: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3265488.htm $17,436

Options with size and excellent light return in budget, but without hearts and arrows perfection (you would put these on hold and ask for an idealscope image, and then once you have them, you would post the idealscope images and we would help you chose):
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.18-carat-k-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-434690
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.20-carat-k-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-367511


You will need to decide what is most important to you. Because something is going to have to give.

 

[Gypsy]

Additional helpful information. Make sure you study the links as well, as they are imperative.
Here is what you need to know:
The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only. EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want? Well first you want to stick to stones that have a crown angle of 34 (33.5 okay for 60/60 style stones) and over, a pavilion angle of 41 and under, and no deeper than 62.5
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

 

[kb1gra]

Gypsy, why would you waste your time linking the OP to stones from a vendor they expressed a desire NOT to buy from?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

I might not normally comment, but the title of this thread states Hearts On Fire specifically. That production has specific requirements which are not arbitrary. Thus, please forgive me Gypsy, but I need to address a small part of your post. The rest is a fantastic summary, but on one end, you are slightly too optimistic.

For starters, the Idealscope is not a selection tool. It still is a rejection tool, just like any other assessment-tool existing. Granted, for some people, using that rejection-tool may lead to a level of them being content with the result, so it may be sufficient as a selection-tool for some, but not universally. The same goes for pictures and them being AGS-0. It may suffice for some (maybe even many), but it does not change the reality of them being rejection-tools. Especially when a specific production has been named, they are limited.

As an example we are constantly involved in re-cutting. This extends to diamonds from many respected brands, historic and new. Some, even, are already AGS-0 with photos seen as acceptable in the PS community. Even now we are engaged in such a project for a client. The diamond is AGS-0 with all the correct images from the original source. But re-cutting this stone, which passed all rejection-tools you mentioned with flying colors, to the cut-quality-level our client wishes, will lose a full 7% in carat weight. In such cases we are reminded how dramatic a difference can be, which cannot be spotted with all these tools.

Of course not everyone seeks this quality-level. But, regardless of what the original poster decides, the context is relevant here given the title of the thread.

Gypsy, you also mentioned: "Super-ideals like Hearts on Fire demand a well earned premium." You surely know that a multi-millions dollar advertising campaign explains much of the HOF premium. Still, you are right. Producing a controlled production in such cut-quality has undeniable costs relative to quality standards and rejection levels. I trust this is the premium you are referring to.

Live long,

 

[Niel]

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R210-3ZBQ4T

To get that level of brilliance, what I am I looking for in an idealscope or ASET? What makes the diamonds I saw today so incredibly brilliant?

Cut and jewelry store lighting.
Have you shopped for stones other than HoF? Have you seen non branded ideal stones in person?
I feel like you want a branded stone but don't want to pay for it. Can't have your cake and eat it too, unfortunately.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Gypsy, why would you waste your time linking the OP to stones from a vendor they expressed a desire NOT to buy from?

For the record, I checked the total of 8 stones suggested in this thread. The only options which pass even the basic barrier of HOF objective criteria are limited to the "cut perfection in budget" category of Gypsy. And not even all of those pass.

With the OP saying "this is it, just what I want" specific to HOF appearance it may be necessary to consider avenues which can deliver this, specifically.

Live long,

 

[jonsey]

Thank you!

I should have been more clear in my post: the diamonds I saw yesterday: I want that level of brilliance. Whether I need the perfect (to the eye) alignment of faceting: I don't, unless it makes the diamond a better performer.

Therefore, where I was going, I suppose:

1) a diamond such as the ones you all linked should have that level of brilliance, just based on the specs? I don't need the beautiful perfect H&A structure to get the light reflection? Or do I?

2) the reason that the K faced up so well is the really high level cut, correct? Something a little less good will face up warm?

I did spend time reading through those long discussions last night. It was late, perhaps I missed the answer to my 2 questions.

I don't need a "branded" stone. I need something that looks like the diamonds I saw yesterday. Could care less if they are from a high end jeweler or Wal Mart. Just as long as they look that good. I figure there are stones out there without the marketing expense, that are just as good in the performance category. Can't any good cutter basically take a good crystal and create a diamond like that if they so desire? Angles aren't proprietary, are they?

 

[Jambalaya]

This diamond not only scores 0.9 on the HCA but the white cross is right in the middle of the white box, meaning it meets AGS standards. It's a GIA diamond, J, Si1, 2.06, and costs $13,524 before wire discount.

It looks good. You could buy an Idealscope, buy this diamond, and see whatcha got. Yes, it's more of a hassle than walking into a Hearts on Fire store and sweeping a diamond off the shelf, but you could end up with a lovely stone for a good price.

Just a thought! Blue Nile is easy to do returns, too. No questions asked, so if you don't like it, simply send it back.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD05442270

P.S. You can call Blue Nile and ask if it's eyeclean, and they will tell you.

 

[luvdajules]

Hi OP, I went through a similar process just last year. I purchased a 2.076 ct J color Si2 for under your specified budget from a ps vendor. I had also gone to HOF dealer and decided not to purchase a branded cut but do the work to find an ideal cut diamond with great ASET and IS images, hearts and arrows perfection not required, but top cut make diamond.

For my money, if I were still looking, I would investigate the Enchanted diamond option Neil suggested as it's a J color VS2 with 100% cut score determined by ED. I would not hesitate to get a K color though, but if you can get a J...

I know you will find a truly great diamond, so keep with the search, the work you put into it is well worth it. Keep posting your questions throughout your diamond journey. You'll get great advice here.

eta Just saw your recent post, you are correct in all your deductions.

 

[Jambalaya]

This one is a J VS2, 2.03, costing $15,076 with the wire discount. It scores a 1.6 on the HCA with the white cross right on the AGS line. http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD04966688

Could get it and check it out with the Idealscope....

 

[jonsey]

\

Here are 2 idealscopes that vendors were able to provide. Thoughts? Both 2.2 J diamonds.

Again, I want the brilliance. Not necessarily the branding.

 

[luvdajules]

between the two, I would go for the first one, I just prefer the overall make of that diamond and the IS indicates a brighter stone under the table (although both IS are acceptable). It looks by the IS that the first one is not VS2 clarity. You will want to investigate the clarity plot and remarks/comments, as these features can impact light performance. Link the cert if you can.

 

[Jambalaya]

This one is J, VVS2, 1.80, $12,283 before wire discount, scores HCA 1.3 and the white cross is within the AGS box.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD05353910

 

[Jambalaya]

This is I, Si1, 1.80, $13,079 before wire discount, and is 1.3 on the HCA again with the cross inside the AGS box.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD04661054

 

[Dancing Fire]

I think jonsey is looking for a unbranded H&A stone... in that case I'd advise him to call GOG.

 

[tyty333]

I think jonsey is looking for a unbranded H&A stone... in that case I'd advise him to call GOG.

Hey DF, did you find your Octavia at Walmart? I'm sure the price would have been a lot cheaper!

 

[tyty333]

This stone that Neil picked out is gorgeous!
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R210-3ZBQ4T

 

[cflutist]

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

I might not normally comment, but the title of this thread states Hearts On Fire specifically. That production has specific requirements which are not arbitrary. Thus, please forgive me Gypsy, but I need to address a small part of your post. The rest is a fantastic summary, but on one end, you are slightly too optimistic.

For starters, the Idealscope is not a selection tool. It still is a rejection tool, just like any other assessment-tool existing. Granted, for some people, using that rejection-tool may lead to a level of them being content with the result, so it may be sufficient as a selection-tool for some, but not universally. The same goes for pictures and them being AGS-0. It may suffice for some (maybe even many), but it does not change the reality of them being rejection-tools. Especially when a specific production has been named, they are limited.

As an example we are constantly involved in re-cutting. This extends to diamonds from many respected brands, historic and new. Some, even, are already AGS-0 with photos seen as acceptable in the PS community. Even now we are engaged in such a project for a client. The diamond is AGS-0 with all the correct images from the original source. But re-cutting this stone, which passed all rejection-tools you mentioned with flying colors, to the cut-quality-level our client wishes, will lose a full 7% in carat weight. In such cases we are reminded how dramatic a difference can be, which cannot be spotted with all these tools.

Of course not everyone seeks this quality-level. But, regardless of what the original poster decides, the context is relevant here given the title of the thread.

Gypsy, you also mentioned: "Super-ideals like Hearts on Fire demand a well earned premium." You surely know that a multi-millions dollar advertising campaign explains much of the HOF premium. Still, you are right. Producing a controlled production in such cut-quality has undeniable costs relative to quality standards and rejection levels. I trust this is the premium you are referring to.

Live long,

Thank you Paul for your post. For me, it basically sums up what Crafted By Infinity diamonds are all about and why they plan, cut and polish the world's strictest, most consistent brand of high-performance diamonds. All CBI diamonds are flawlessly crafted with three-dimensional precision, their visual results exceed every known performance metric, achieving levels yet unmeasured and ungraded by diamond laboratories. This is why I commissioned a Cut-to-Order CBI diamond for myself.

As far as OPs comment about facing up whiter, I can confirm that myself. With color sensitive eyes all four of my diamonds are E or F in color. The pear in a my avatar is GIA graded F-SI1. My CBI diamond is AGS0 F-SI1 so they are the same color/clarity grade. While walking around our hillside on overcast days and comparing my rings side by side, I can confirm that my CBI diamond DOES in fact face up whiter due to its precision cut.

I've seen many diamonds in my days and this might seem like marketing hype, but I really do believe that one needs to see a CBI diamond in person, live and in living color, to appreciate its beauty. I saw some at a Meet the Cutter Event and knew instantly that I wanted one for myself. Should also mention that Wink at High Performance Diamonds has a See It to Believe It program at no cost to you and I encourage you to use it. At least look at a CBI diamond and then decide if their quality level is for you.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="cflutist|


Thank you Paul for your post. For me, it basically sums up what Crafted By Infinity diamonds are all about and why they plan, cut and polish the world's strictest, most consistent brand of high-performance diamonds. All CBI diamonds are flawlessly crafted with three-dimensional precision, their visual results exceed every known performance metric, achieving levels yet unmeasured and ungraded by diamond laboratories. This is why I commissioned a Cut-to-Order CBI diamond for myself.

[/quote]
Exactly, but most people don't understand why a precision cut diamond will carry a premium. No such thing as a filet mignon for hamburger price.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

If you want HoF quality or close to it (ïdeal ++++), then you are looking at WhiteFlash ACA's, Good Old Gold Superior Hearts and Arrows, Infinity, Victor Canera H&A, and Brian Gavin Signature. You are wasting your time at other vendors. Thankfully the price premium on these stones is FAR less than HoF. They almost feel like a bargain in comparison.

You are going to see tint in a K. As someone already said, jewelry store lighting is designed to make diamonds look sparkly, brilliant, and make you unable to see color differences. I actually went to see a HoF diamond, also, before I ended up buying H&A diamonds from Good Old Gold and WhiteFlash.

Since I'd eliminate the K's, I would recommend this stone for size and price from the ones Gypsy listed:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3189868.htm

Will see if I see anything else.

 

[jonsey]

This stone that Neil picked out is gorgeous!
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R210-3ZBQ4T

Yes, I love it. Symmetry on the table looks a little off? Or is that just me?

General knowledge question: what am I looking for in those ASET and Idealscope pics to know if it going to be a 1% of the 1% cut? I have read the threads on idealscope and ASET and know the basics. But beyond that....what is going to distinguish the very best cuts from simply a nice diamond?

Also, the Si2 was one of the diamonds I posted an idealscope of. Gemologist confirmed eye clean, small twinning wisps and feathers. It was an AGS Ideal grade

 

[luvdajules]

well...small twinning wisps as clarity grade making inclusion and possibly coupled with more tw and clouds in comments might be eye clean, but IMPACT light performance (sleepy diamond). Ask more questions to the gemologist about this

 

[mns12]

If you want HoF quality or close to it (ïdeal ++++), then you are looking at WhiteFlash ACA's, Good Old Gold Superior Hearts and Arrows, Infinity, Victor Canera H&A, and Brian Gavin Signature. You are wasting your time at other vendors. Thankfully the price premium on these stones is FAR less than HoF. They almost feel like a bargain in comparison.

You are going to see tint in a K. As someone already said, jewelry store lighting is designed to make diamonds look sparkly, brilliant, and make you unable to see color differences. I actually went to see a HoF diamond, also, before I ended up buying H&A diamonds from Good Old Gold and WhiteFlash.

Since I'd eliminate the K's, I would recommend this stone for size and price from the ones Gypsy listed:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3189868.htm

Will see if I see anything else.

I completely agree on bolded statement above. I recently went to a HOF store to compare colors (mainly H and I). I couldn't notice too much of a difference b/w H and I but did notice some tint in J vs. H, but again a personal thing. I ended up buying an almost 2 ct Whiteflash ACA for literally half the price of the HOF I tried on( same ct but lower color). Approx. ~$20k difference which is INSANE to me. SO yes, while I am paying a premium for a branded cut I feel like I am getting a great deal compared to most of the B&M stores. And it sure did my husband good to see that mark up at HOF and then tell him what we were going to pay

I also agree with what others have been saying...you (and your FF) need to see for yourself what color tolerance YOU have.
Best of luck, I know it's not an easy journey!

 

[jonsey]

I know that it was said that the AGS Ideal will result in an amazing looking diamond, but this one shows a lot of light leakage....thoughts on the general worthiness of AGS Ideal?

 

[luvdajules]

I must not have 20/20 vision anymore cause I can't read the small print...however, I did notice the AGS 000 rating and the computerized ASET. Without knowing the actual values of the CA/PA and other values, why do you say it has light leakage? Do you have other images that show the leakage?

Also, a little leakage is not necessarily a bad thing. Mine has some and it's still a very nice stone diamond. Makes for a slightly contrasty look which really appeals to me.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I know that it was said that the AGS Ideal will result in an amazing looking diamond, but this one shows a lot of light leakage....thoughts on the general worthiness of AGS Ideal?

The AGS light performance grading system is based upon peer reviewed science and sophisticated ray tracing that mathematically calculates the behavior of 40,000 virtual light rays and factors in the contribution of every facet.

Even though the AGS Ideal grade is extremely strict, it does allow for a range of cut qualities, including "super ideals" with exceptional optical symmetry.

As a trade member, and especially one whose company has been mentioned in the thread, I cannot recommend or criticize another vendor's stone (even if that vendor has not been identified). But I think I can say that it does not appear to show much leakage. You may be referring to the green patch which is not leakage, but is light return from low angles which tends to be a little less bright. The ASET light map on the cert is computer generated from the same 3D scan that is used to run the ray tracing for the light performance grade.

Hope that helps a little. You are getting a good balance of perspectives in this thread. I expect that you are on the right track to finding the diamond that meets your particular needs.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

I know that it was said that the AGS Ideal will result in an amazing looking diamond, but this one shows a lot of light leakage....thoughts on the general worthiness of AGS Ideal?

AGS Ideal is also a rejection-tool. Objectively, this diamond does not fit HOF-parameters in many ways.

Is it AGS-Ideal? Yes.
Is it amazing? Highly depends upon whose definition of amazing.
Is it comparable to HOF? Well, it is a diamond and it has AGS-Ideal, so on that level, one could say it is comparable. But it ends there.

Keeping track of my tally, to date, the number of suggested stones complying to objective HOF-criteria has gone below 20%.

Live long,