Gem Hunting

[Edward Bristol]

Individually searched stones (gem-hunting) have, in 2011, overtaken the value of our direct online sales.

I think this is an interesting development and I have collected some experiences:

What does not work for a hunt?
1. Demanding an exact weight like 2.26 carat or a very precise dimension like 6.40x4.55mm is not realistic. You may be lucky in the end but it is better to leave some wiggle room to start with.
2. Unless he has nothing else to do, and no family to feed, a professional trader will not want to hunt for a low value stone, even if it is rare and special. It just doesn’t pay the bills. Budgets may start somewhere around $1k, depending on how exotic your search is.
3. Finding a stone immediately. Nothing will happen in under a week. A month or two is realistic. If a hunt takes longer than twelve months, there might be a problem. (I searched for an unheated blue zircon for 2 years and canceled the hunt)

Why do people decide to go for a hunt?
Buying gemstones should be fun so it usually is not laziness but lack of availability that frustrates the do-it-yourself search.

What kind of people start hunts?
Usually they are well informed buyers searching a gem for a special occasion but not long-term collectors or investors. The latter acquire what they like and when they can find it, but they are not fixated on a certain quality and timeline.

Is it more expensive?
Yes, a hunted gem will generally be more expensive than a chance-find on the web. This is a natural effect of supply and demand. Once word is out that a specific color/size/shape combination is wanted, sellers will try to make extra margin. A professional hunter will have several searches open at any time so he can conceal the exact specs wanted. However, the more specific your demand, the more likely it is to push up prices. E.g. if want nothing but a 5 carat trillion untreated padparadscha you will find the one guy who has a 5ct trillion is asking the highest price. It will be cheaper to search for a 4-6 carat oval/round/cushion and see what comes along.

Do I have to commit to one trader?
Yes, one or two is better. It may be tempting to send out mass-emails, but that is not useful. It is unlikely that somebody hides a trillion 5 carat padparadscha and is just waiting for your email. In any case you will drive up prices because several traders will be asking around for the same specifications without knowing from each other.

All-in-all, this is a very demanding part of the business, great fun at times but also very stressful: Usually negotiating are done over various times-zones and cultural settings (e.g. I had this case where a Chinese seller raised the price twice after we had already agreed on a deal and my American customers were going nuts on the other end).

Highest expectations on the buyer side and a strong position on the seller side at the same time spell rough water.

 

[Upgradable]

Great post, Edward! Very eye opening. We at Pricescope, especially, can make use of this info. I know we over-inflate our importance in the gem world, but we have seen significant "trends" in the specific types (and locals) of stones we like. Since we seem to have a rather limited group of gem hunters we use, in your opinion, are we shooting ourselves in the foot by the way we go about finding a stone? Also, I'd love to know if there is any eye rolling when the PSers come a callin?

 

[T L]

Individually searched stones (gem-hunting) have, in 2011, overtaken the value of our direct online sales.

I think this is an interesting development and I have collected some experiences:

What does not work for a hunt?
1. Demanding an exact weight like 2.26 carat or a very precise dimension like 6.40x4.55mm is not realistic. You may be lucky in the end but it is better to leave some wiggle room to start with.
2. Unless he has nothing else to do, and no family to feed, a professional trader will not want to hunt for a low value stone, even if it is rare and special. It just doesn’t pay the bills. Budgets may start somewhere around $1k, depending on how exotic your search is.
3. Finding a stone immediately. Nothing will happen in under a week. A month or two is realistic. If a hunt takes longer than twelve months, there might be a problem. (I searched for an unheated blue zircon for 2 years and canceled the hunt)

Why do people decide to go for a hunt?
Buying gemstones should be fun so it usually is not laziness but lack of availability that frustrates the do-it-yourself search.

What kind of people start hunts?
Usually they are well informed buyers searching a gem for a special occasion but not long-term collectors or investors. The latter acquire what they like and when they can find it, but they are not fixated on a certain quality and timeline.

Is it more expensive?
Yes, a hunted gem will generally be more expensive than a chance-find on the web. This is a natural effect of supply and demand. Once word is out that a specific color/size/shape combination is wanted, sellers will try to make extra margin. A professional hunter will have several searches open at any time so he can conceal the exact specs wanted. However, the more specific your demand, the more likely it is to push up prices. E.g. if want nothing but a 5 carat trillion untreated padparadscha you will find the one guy who has a 5ct trillion is asking the highest price. It will be cheaper to search for a 4-6 carat oval/round/cushion and see what comes along.

Do I have to commit to one trader?
Yes, one or two is better. It may be tempting to send out mass-emails, but that is not useful. It is unlikely that somebody hides a trillion 5 carat padparadscha and is just waiting for your email. In any case you will drive up prices because several traders will be asking around for the same specifications without knowing from each other.

All-in-all, this is a very demanding part of the business, great fun at times but also very stressful: Usually negotiating are done over various times-zones and cultural settings (e.g. I had this case where a Chinese seller raised the price twice after we had already agreed on a deal and my American customers were going nuts on the other end).

Highest expectations on the buyer side and a strong position on the seller side at the same time spell rough water.

Some gems have values that are across the board, like chrysoberyl for example. I can find it for very little or for a very high price from someone like you. THAT is why buyers should do their own research and hunt for good values. It would be very lucky to get an unheated 5 carat padparadcha for $25, but I have seen someone get a 3.5 carat unheated padparadcha (AGL report findings), without really knowing it, for less than $1K. That is why the hunt is so fun, and why education is key. I would be broke in five seconds if I bought even two stones from you.

I understand that you like to self promote yourself on this site quite a bit, and hide it under these long winded threads, but I think the educated buyer on PS can handle themselves very well, and find a good deal when they want to.

 

[partgypsy]

ouch

 

[ddgdl]

In defense of Ed, I think he does provide a unique service to people. Some buyers may not have the time or patience to hunt down that perfect stone, and in those cases those buyers may not particularly care about paying a premium to have someone's assistance. I think that would pertain more to hunting down high-end, expensive stones, but I could be wrong. For example, I can see a busy doctor or lawyer who doesn't have the time to search inventories for even an hour per day to find that perfect stone for his or her significant other (or him or herself, for that matter).

Heck, if retail stores offer personal shoppers to clients, why not in the gem trade too? And if that comes with a premium, some people may find the time saved to be worth it...Just a thought.

 

[Kitten35]

TL,

I don't typically get too involved in discussions outside of those that ask for general information, or posting for general information, but, respectfully, your post was harsh.

I just bought from WildFish (not a hunt), and their customer service and business philosophy is great. I don't think Ed "self-promotes" or is "long winded." He is taking some time to be thorough and explain, and he is honest as well. Also, keep in mind his business model is fair trade which is going to be more expensive by nature of the beast. There is clearly a faction of people who find the gem hunting to be a good way to find gems--a busy lawyer or doctor is a great example, as given by another poster.

If you don't want to buy from him you don't have to, but you don't have to bash if you've never had a direct issue with a vendor. Clearly, many people DO buy from WildFish, and are happy with their purchases.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Before there is any misunderstanding: I do not hunt on websites! That everybody can do himself; or PS can do it very well. No competition.

I travel to hunt, take tons of risk and cost, and I know the right people.

TL, no need to be nasty.

 

[T L]

I totally respect that people have bought from Wildfish and are happy with their purchases. I stick by my opinion that I think he's been blatantly trying to promote himself on this site. No one has to agree with my opinion, but like the last padparadcha thread that was pulled (for more self promotion), it is really getting on my nerves. I think if he wants to advertise on here, he should pay for it like the rest of the vendors that have to. I'm sorry if people don't agree with me, and they don't have to. It's my opinion and I'm sticking by it. Ed can think I'm being nasty all he wants to. I've been on this forum for years, and after a long time, I'm just getting tired of it.

 

[VapidLapid]

I am not going to discuss the specifics of this instance. It does seem to me that any trade members presence on the forum can be construed as self promotion. I thought they were welcomed here for the unique perspectives they can bring. every trade member's post is in some way self promotion. Is blatant worse than discrete? I may be wrong but I thought they were welcomed as long as they disclose their trade status (blatant) rather than pose as consumers only to shill (discrete).

eta: for disclosure's sake, I have not bought from Wildfish. Coveted yes, but not bought.

 

[movie zombie]

thank you for the informative post, ed! it certainly highlights how buyers can end up increasing the price they pay for a particular stone.

TL, you certainly are entitled to your opinion. in my reading of ed's postings i find education. if there is one thing pricescope has always advocated is more education for buyers. when vendors do offer that educational opportunity and then greeted with great rudeness, well, is it no wonder that many vendors no longer participate here or have reduced their participation?

i agree that ed's stones are high priced. but he's also running an "ethical" business and for those that care about that, well, they are willing to pay for that premium. and those not wanting to spend as many years and as much time as you learning about stones will also pay that premium. get over it.

eta: also in the coveted but not bought from ed category.

 

[chrono]

I think it is preferable that a trade member's self promotion posting be discrete. If I am not mistaken, everyone in the trade cannot tout their own business or inventory, per the PS forum rules. They may post example stones in order to discuss a particular point, and even then most will ask for the moderator's okay first. They are definitely not allowed to share their opinion on another vendor's stone. They walk a fine line between self promotion and education.

 

[T L]

thank you for the informative post, ed! it certainly highlights how buyers can end up increasing the price they pay for a particular stone.

TL, you certainly are entitled to your opinion. in my reading of ed's postings i find education. if there is one thing pricescope has always advocated is more education for buyers. when vendors do offer that educational opportunity and then greeted with great rudeness, well, is it no wonder that many vendors no longer participate here or have reduced their participation?

i agree that ed's stones are high priced. but he's also running an "ethical" business and for those that care about that, well, they are willing to pay for that premium. and those not wanting to spend as many years and as much time as you learning about stones will also pay that premium. get over it.

eta: also in the coveted but not bought from ed category.

MZ,
I have absolutely no problem with vendors educating people, but they should not be bringing up their own material, and their own photos of the items THEY sold, to do so. I do appreciate the education that all the wonderful vendors bring to this site, including Gene, Lisa, etc. . . They are wonderful to share their time with us. I do appreciate them, but continual self patting on the back is not something I subscribe to. Again, if people want to share their wonderful experiences with Ed, I don't have a problem with that. The ethical business thing is nice, but again, he brought that up here to promote himself. Why bring that up in colored stones? Do it in Hangout.

Also, while I think ethical business practices are important, no one can really prove they are 100% ethical to any consumer. If people care about ethical business practices, then they should research vendors that do so. Marc of Africagems.com gives 10% of his sales to poor Zambian children, can I prove that? No I can't, but he doesn't come on this site saying, "look at me, I give to charity." Glad he brought it up, but again, it was in regards to him, and his sales. I just think it's distasteful to do what he's doing here, when so many vendors have to pay to advertise, and he's hiding behind "education" to do so. Again, this is MY opinion, and I'm sticking by it, as I have seen this over and over and over again, and I have said nothing. I think the last padparadscha thread, which backfired, because no one loved it as much as he anticipated, really was the last straw for me. I'm a vendor advocate, and a consumer advocate, and I don't like what I see here. It's not fair to other vendors either.

 

[VapidLapid]

Indeed the line is thin; some would say imaginary. Does that then leave style as the criterion that determines a post as blatant or discrete? Certainly there are good rules constraining what trade members may comment on, and barring solicitations etc. It would be blatant, and covertly solicitous for a vendor to say something like, " I have a solid lead on a vein of extraordinary quality ruby and I am trekking off into the secret ruby mountains to mine the stones myself. I have attached a webcam to my pick so that you can follow me and experience the brutality of mining and crushing stone and even choose your stone in real time as it comes out of the earth!"
Is it different when trade members initiate a thread that tells us about something they are observing currently in the industry or that they recently learned themselves than when they only bring that information when it is pertinent in an existing thread?

eta: I have never bought a stone from TL, coveted yes, but not bought.

 

[movie zombie]

TL, ed did none of the things in this post that you describe.
i think your post was pent up anger and it came out unbecoming to you.

presenting the info that buyers inflate the price of a stone by insisting on particular sizes or weights is appropriate.
presenting that any vendor hunting for a stone with particular buyer requirement is going to command a premium.
and more importantly, its an important reminder for pricescopers and particularly useful info for newbies.
newbies have not taken the time to research vendors and/or stones as you have.
they have not devoted years to developing an eye and/or relationship with vendors.
your relationship with vendors allows you a door into the color stone world and the ability to obtain stones for prices that most would not be able to do. [yes, i believe you have an advantage with some vendors.]
newbies need to understand that they are not going to match your prowess and they cannot expect to get the same bargains w/o spending the time you have on color stones.
and they need to understand that while being educated is a good idea, it also means understanding that they may not able to afford what they want and/or its going to take time.

again, thanks ed for a reminder that the more particular we get the more $ we can expect to pay.

 

[T L]

Indeed the line is thin; some would say imaginary. Does that then leave style as the criterion that determines a post as blatant or discrete? Certainly there are good rules constraining what trade members may comment on, and barring solicitations etc. It would be blatant, and covertly solicitous for a vendor to say something like, " I have a solid lead on a vein of extraordinary quality ruby and I am trekking off into the secret ruby mountains to mine the stones myself. I have attached a webcam to my pick so that you can follow me and experience the brutality of mining and crushing stone and even choose your stone in real time as it comes out of the earth!"
Is it different when trade members initiate a thread that tells us about something they are observing currently in the industry or that they recently learned themselves than when they only bring that information when it is pertinent in an existing thread?

Sure there's a fine line, but I think Ed has crossed it way too many times. BTW, I have never ever seen any other vendor as blatant about it, in MY opinion, as Ed, except for one other vendor (who shall remain nameless in this thread, but someone called him out on it). I think all the other vendors that post here, and educate are doing a great job, and I really appreciate them. It took A LOT for me to bring this up, it really did. I stood silent for quite a long time.

I love all the vendors that post on here, even if I don't buy from them, and I really appreciate their time. Please do not think this is a witch hunt, because it isn't. I just have this problem with Ed, and again, people may not see what I'm seeing, but as a long time poster, I feel I have a right to my opinion as I have witnessed this behavior for eons. A little self promotion doesn't even bug me that much, but when it's so overt, and repetitive, ugh!

 

[T L]

TL, ed did none of the things in this post that you describe.
i think your post was pent up anger and it came out unbecoming to you.

presenting the info that buyers inflate the price of a stone by insisting on particular sizes or weights is appropriate.
presenting that any vendor hunting for a stone with particular buyer requirement is going to command a premium.
and more importantly, its an important reminder for pricescopers and particularly useful info for newbies.
newbies have not taken the time to research vendors and/or stones as you have.
they have not devoted years to developing an eye and/or relationship with vendors.
your relationship with vendors allows you a door into the color stone world and the ability to obtain stones for prices that most would not be able to do. [yes, i believe you have an advantage with some vendors.]
newbies need to understand that they are not going to match your prowess and they cannot expect to get the same bargains w/o spending the time you have on color stones.
and they need to understand that while being educated is a good idea, it also means understanding that they may not able to afford what they want and/or its going to take time.

again, thanks ed for a reminder that the more particular we get the more $ we can expect to pay.

Okay, I will admit that Ed brings up some interesting points, and whether people agree with them or not, is besides the point. He started this thread with.

"Individually searched stones (gem-hunting) have, in 2011, overtaken the value of our direct online sales."

If he had started this thread without directly referring to himself, but the overall direct online sales, which he would have to formulate some scientific research for, then it would be a different story. Then he goes on to specify all the negatives on the online hunt, which probably does hurt his business, or why would he have posted that top line. And how the heck does he know that online hunting, which I refer to as "researching prices," has anything to do with overall direct online sales. This is a consumer forum, which helps people make informed and well made purchases, and what he's doing is undermining that.

MZ,
I'm glad you enjoy his threads and see his points, but I don't, and I find them to be self promoting.

 

[deorwine]

I personally found Ed's post very informative. Thank you Ed!

TL, I see where you are coming from (I agree that Ed's posts do have a promotional undercurrent, and I agree that most other vendors -- with at least one other exception I can think of, wonder if we're talking about the same person -- in this forum do not have nearly as much of an undercurrent, although as pointed out above being a vendor on a consumer board is always going to have a bit of an undercurrent, and rightly), but I don't see that having a promotional undercurrent is too bad IF he is educating the PS community and sticking to PS rules. Which he's doing.

(At the same time, TL, I do appreciate your willingness to call behavior as you see it, for those who might not have it occur to them.)

 

[VapidLapid]

Indeed the line is thin; some would say imaginary. Does that then leave style as the criterion that determines a post as blatant or discrete? Certainly there are good rules constraining what trade members may comment on, and barring solicitations etc. It would be blatant, and covertly solicitous for a vendor to say something like, " I have a solid lead on a vein of extraordinary quality ruby and I am trekking off into the secret ruby mountains to mine the stones myself. I have attached a webcam to my pick so that you can follow me and experience the brutality of mining and crushing stone and even choose your stone in real time as it comes out of the earth!"
Is it different when trade members initiate a thread that tells us about something they are observing currently in the industry or that they recently learned themselves than when they only bring that information when it is pertinent in an existing thread?

Sure there's a fine line, but I think Ed has crossed it way too many times. BTW, I have never ever seen any other vendor as blatant about it, in MY opinion, as Ed, except for one other vendor (who shall remain nameless in this thread, but someone called him out on it). I think all the other vendors that post here, and educate are doing a great job, and I really appreciate them. It took A LOT for me to bring this up, it really did. I stood silent for quite a long time.

I love all the vendors that post on here, even if I don't buy from them, and I really appreciate their time. Please do not think this is a witch hunt, because it isn't. I just have this problem with Ed, and again, people may not see what I'm seeing, but as a long time poster, I feel I have a right to my opinion as I have witnessed this behavior for eons. A little self promotion doesn't even bug me that much, but when it's so overt, and repetitive, ugh!

I do believe it took a lot for you to bring this up. One of the things I love is that you say what you believe regardless how how unpopular it may sound.

Ed, I do think the first line of this thread makes it read as a Press Release announcing a new service you are offering and focus of your business.

 

[T L]

I personally found Ed's post very informative. Thank you Ed!

TL, I see where you are coming from (I agree that Ed's posts do have a promotional undercurrent, and I agree that most other vendors -- with at least one other exception I can think of, wonder if we're talking about the same person -- in this forum do not have nearly as much of an undercurrent, although as pointed out above being a vendor on a consumer board is always going to have a bit of an undercurrent, and rightly), but I don't see that having a promotional undercurrent is too bad IF he is educating the PS community and sticking to PS rules. Which he's doing.

(At the same time, TL, I do appreciate your willingness to call behavior as you see it, for those who might not have it occur to them.)

Deor,
Thank you for the thoughtful post. I don't have a problem with a promotional undercurrent if education is the purpose, but when I see it on a repetitive basis, I don't think it's fair to other vendors. I also don't find this particular thread of his very educational either, but that's my opinion.

 

[deorwine]

Okay, I will admit that Ed brings up some interesting points, and whether people agree with them or not, is besides the point. He started this thread with.

"Individually searched stones (gem-hunting) have, in 2011, overtaken the value of our direct online sales."

If he had started this thread without directly referring to himself, but the overall direct online sales, which he would have to formulate some scientific research for, then it would be a different story. Then he goes on to specify all the negatives on the online hunt, which probably does hurt his business, or why would he have posted that top line.

I think I am parsing his first line (and potentially the whole OP) a little differently than you, TL. He's saying that his business has shifted from offering stones to the public to Ed's offering the service of gem-hunting. It sounds like you are thinking he is denigrating the PS-er custom of self-hunting for gems, whereas I think he is just making an observation about his own gem-hunting part of the business. I don't think it hurts his business; in fact, I think he'd probably say the increased gem-hunt sales are helping his business.

The negatives on the online hunt he posts in the OP are actually negatives for the gem-hunting services he (or another vendor) provides, and as such he is making a somewhat fairly balanced case for why you might or might not want a vendor to perform gem-hunting for you.

If I have misrepresented your position, I apologize, but this post makes me suspect you are misreading the OP.

 

[T L]

Okay, I will admit that Ed brings up some interesting points, and whether people agree with them or not, is besides the point. He started this thread with.

"Individually searched stones (gem-hunting) have, in 2011, overtaken the value of our direct online sales."

If he had started this thread without directly referring to himself, but the overall direct online sales, which he would have to formulate some scientific research for, then it would be a different story. Then he goes on to specify all the negatives on the online hunt, which probably does hurt his business, or why would he have posted that top line.

I think I am parsing his first line (and potentially the whole OP) a little differently than you, TL. He's saying that his business has shifted from offering stones to the public to Ed's offering the service of gem-hunting. It sounds like you are thinking he is denigrating the PS-er custom of self-hunting for gems, whereas I think he is just making an observation about his own gem-hunting part of the business. I don't think it hurts his business; in fact, I think he'd probably say the increased gem-hunt sales are helping his business.

The negatives on the online hunt he posts in the OP are actually negatives for the gem-hunting services he (or another vendor) provides, and as such he is making a somewhat fairly balanced case for why you might or might not want a vendor to perform gem-hunting for you.

If I have misrepresented your position, I apologize, but this post makes me suspect you are misreading the OP.

I think he's self promoting his hunting business as well as his business in general, like a press release, as VL stated. I respect your opinion and interpretation of Ed's opening statement Deor. If he had not opened it with that first line, it wouldn't have been as inappropriate to me, and others. I guess when I see a certain pattern associated with a particular vendor, the red flags fly. It culminated in why I felt I had to speak up today.

 

[Edward Bristol]

TL, whatever I post you’re always ready to bash me. I don't know why. What have I done to you? If you so strongly dislike me why are you regularly the first to answer? Just ignore my posts!

That first line was simply to explain why I write about this topic. I meant zero promotion with it. Selling from a website is much easier than hunting, so I would not want to promote it.

 

[T L]

TL, whatever I post you’re always ready to bash me. I don't know why. What have I done to you? If you so strongly dislike me why are you regularly the first to answer? Just ignore my posts!

That first line was simply to explain why I write about this topic. I meant zero promotion with it. Selling from a website is much easier than hunting, so I would not want to promote it.

That is totally untrue, I never have ever bashed you personally. While I do find some of your posts distasteful and inappropriate, I have long kept silent. Please do not make this into "TL doesn't like me, so she's picking on me." We're not kids in grade school.

 

[Edward Bristol]

But you are so strangely emotional.

 

[Edward Bristol]

I would be broke in five seconds if I bought even two stones from you.

I think that is your real problem. Since some people here like my writings I will not stop just because of you.

 

[Edward Bristol]

I would be broke in five seconds if I bought even two stones from you.

I think that is your real problem. Since some people here like my writings I will not stop just because of you.

 

[T L]

I would be broke in five seconds if I bought even two stones from you.

I think that is your real problem. Since some people here like my writings I will not stop just because of you.

Don't then, and I will not stop continuing to provide my opinion on you, the moon, the sun, other vendors, and gems either.

I never ever said "Ed must stop posting here."

 

[minousbijoux]

like the last padparadcha thread that was pulled (for more self promotion),

Can someone remind me of this thread? I might've missed it and a quick search for it left me empty-handed, I assume because it was pulled?

Thx

 

[T L]

like the last padparadcha thread that was pulled (for more self promotion),

Can someone remind me of this thread? I might've missed it and a quick search for it left me empty-handed, I assume because it was pulled?

Thx

Ed showed a padparadscha ring, and he seemed obviously proud of it, but we weren't sure where it came from. After several comments from various posters, he eventually came back and said it was a ring he sold. It was then pulled, as vendors are not allowed to post photos of their own jewelry or gems without explicit permission from the moderators.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Again.