Do You think Student Loans Should be Forgiven?

[smitcompton]

Hi,

People that did not take loans out for their education made sacrifices to get their degrees. They aren't saying "woe is me", , but recognize they had hardships along the way. And I think it is denigrating to those who did sacrifice to now call them out for being selfish, mean, and not caring about those who followed. in their footsteps. Those people who want total loan forgiveness don't want to make any sacrifices.

This situation is not like juniors and seniors now pick on the Freshman. The monetary costs here are enormous for the country to bear. And yes, I do think that as much as it is understandable that you would like forgiveness of your loans you do make it sound as if your entitled. In some ways you took the easy way out.

Education costs too much in this country. Free community colleges are a most, and trade schools. . This was like Field of Dreams. If you build it, they will come. Make low cost loans available, and they stampeded the schools and the banks..

I am for some forgiveness. But for those that denigrate others for finding a way to get through school, I would hope you would say Thanks, and not grumble and find others wanting. I think the mirror is a place to look.

Annette

 

[Lookinagain]

save your pearl clutching and whataboutisms for someone else. God I can't wait until this generation isn't voting anymore.

It really doesn't seem that "boomers" are the only ones against total loan forgiveness as some of the posts from the younger members show. But really, a comment like yours seems pretty distasteful to me, because as far as I know, only death terminates the right to vote. And although you think they are all "clutching their pearls" you seem to be choosing to forget that these baby boomers who you have such disdain for helped move women in the U.S. forward on many fronts such as the right to purchase birth control; the right to equal access to job listings; the right to get a credit card in their own name; the right to keep their own name after marriage; the right to a legal abortion, etc. So give them some credit please. And just remember that many of them are still voting for the same things that you are.

 

[Dancing Fire]

This situation is not like juniors and seniors now pick on the Freshman. The monetary costs here are enormous for the country to bear. And yes, I do think that as much as it is understandable that you would like forgiveness of your loans you do make it sound as if your entitled. In some ways you took the easy way out.

Entitlements are killing this country. Nowadays most kids don't wanna be responsible for anything. Very simple, You borrowed the $$$ you pay it back.

 

[nala]

If it is forgiven, it is completely NOT fair for people who paid the full tuition or spent years working hard to pay off their tuition.
It is the expense people incurred voluntarily but not necessarily to survive, not like a medical bill. This something you choose to take and you should be responsible for it.
It is the same logic that anyone think credit card debt should be forgiven? Do a lot of people justify that it is completely fine to just do spending spree on whatever you cannot afford and declare bankruptcy so you don’t pay for that?

If the education you received does not give you the ability to pay for the tuition or the education gives you the idea that I so it is okay that I don’t pay for it. I felt the education system is a complete failure.

I agree. It’s not fair. But neither is the child tax credit that parents are getting right now—3000 to 3600 per kid! And the threshold for phase-out is higher! Back in the day, my DD is only 23, my salary phased me out of the 1000 credit and I’m a teacher!
What else isn’t fair? Oh yeah. The stimulus that only certain people qualified for. The big raise in unemployment that people got from federal. Loan modification back when Obama was president. PPP loans that businesses got to the tune of millions and which won’t have to be paid back. I’m sure I’m forgetting other govt sponsored handouts that only benefit a few and that are not retroactive to the rest of us. So why stop at college loan forgiveness? Why marginalize hard working middle class students—bc let’s face it— the rich don’t need these loans and the poor get a lot of financial aid so their loans are minimal—why not give the middle class a chance to rise for once??? And I paid for my DD’s college outright and she owes zero—so I would be one of those whom it should be Unfair for but guess what? DD is successful and my paying off her college is not something I regret. I’m proud that I was able to do it and that I gave her the foundation to thrive financially and start off debt free. She saw me sacrifice and she learned the value of money. Loan forgiveness for others will never take that away from us.

 

[nala]

Entitlements are killing this country. Nowadays most kids don't wanna be responsible for anything. Very simple, You borrowed the $$$ you pay it back.

Unless you are a big corporation asking for a bailout. Or a business who got millions in PPP loans and owe zero back bc pandemic. Guess kids aren’t the only entitled ones.

 

[Lookinagain]

the rich don’t need these loans and the poor get a lot of financial aid so their loans are minimal—why not give the middle class a chance to rise for once???

That's a good point. People keep focusing on the poor, but I think it's the middle class that get caught in the squeeze for this. Maybe that is where the focus should be.

But there is a dilemma here. What I do think is that there are many young people who go to an expensive private college that they cannot afford, and borrow ridiculous sums of money to pay the tuition, when they had the option of going to a well regarded state school for much less. Then there are other young people who got into that same expensive private college, but chose to go to the well regarded state school instead for financial reasons, so they borrowed less, or no money. So are we going to reward the people who went somewhere they knew they couldn't afford when they had another option that would have served them well? That's where I get hung up on all of this. I don't buy a Ferrari if I can't afford it. I buy the Toyota that I can afford. Both can get me to the same place.

 

[nala]

That's a good point. People keep focusing on the poor, but I think it's the middle class that get caught in the squeeze for this. Maybe that is where the focus should be.

But there is a dilemma here. What I do think is that there are many young people who go to an expensive private college that they cannot afford, and borrow ridiculous sums of money to pay the tuition, when they had the option of going to a well regarded state school for much less. Then there are other young people who got into that same expensive private college, but chose to go to the well regarded state school instead for financial reasons, so they borrowed less, or no money. So are we going to reward the people who went somewhere they knew they couldn't afford when they had another option that would have served them well? That's where I get hung up on all of this. I don't buy a Ferrari if I can't afford it. I buy the Toyota that I can afford. Both can get me to the same place.

I think at present only a max of 50k is being considered with 10k being the most likely. Won’t even make a dent in a private college debt. My friend owes 250k and another friend owes 700 k for 3 kids. Nothing will help those bad choices.

 

[Lookinagain]

I think at present only a max of 50k is being considered with 10k being the most likely. Won’t even make a dent in a private college debt. My friend owes 250k and another friend owes 700 k for 3 kids. Nothing will help those bad choices.

Nope, but it sounds like those were choices made based upon the colleges they chose, assuming they had public college options. I think that was my point.

 

[nala]

I forgot to add paid maternity leave—what is up to these days? Back in the day it was 6 weeks. Oh and paternity leave! I can’t even imagine my hubby back then being able to take 15 weeks off to bond with baby. Yeah. Definitely not fair. Let’s revoke those new perks for the sake of fairness. After all, all of our kids turned out fine.

 

[nala]

Nope, but it sounds like those were choices made based upon the colleges they chose, assuming they had public college options. I think that was my point.

Exactly! Agree.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I am the father in this video. She didn't wanna to talk to me.

 

[Karl_K]

That's a good point. People keep focusing on the poor, but I think it's the middle class that get caught in the squeeze for this. Maybe that is where the focus should be.

It is, they are the ones paying for it.
Simple math if their was a 100% tax on the top 10% it would not even begin to pay for it and by definition the poor do not have the money to pay for it. So the money comes from debt which is just pushing the problem down the road or ultimately the middle class either today or down the road..

 

[MRBXXXFVVS1]

We could apply the same sunk cost thinking towards existing student loan debt. The money can be better invested in education for future generations than debt forgiveness.

I paid off my student loan debt. I don't want to pay off others' student loan debt too via taxes. I rather pay MORE taxes than the scenario for student loan forgiveness, if that money goes towards educating our FUTURE leaders. "Too bad, life is not fair" also applies for those who CHOSE to take out the debt. There were plenty of community and state college options...

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

SO has two kids from a prev. marriage that he put thru college, state universities. He started saving when they were tiny and none of the money was used for anything else, it went unraided thru the divorce. The kids worked thru school and got scholarships when available. He feels that if these loans are forgiven, he should get something back for having been responsible. Of course he's not entirely serious about that but the whole idea makes him mad. I don't blame him.

 

[yssie]

That's where I get hung up on all of this. I don't buy a Ferrari if I can't afford it. I buy the Toyota that I can afford. Both can get me to the same place.

I agree with this in theory. In practice, though, there is so much societal value attached to the name brand school that even the rich and famous, who could set their kids up for comfortable lives without any school whatsoever, were willing to pay thousands, tends of thousands to cheat those schools’ admissions systems.

In America at least, I don’t know if it’s different in other countries - whether you go into a trade after university or continue in academia - where you go does matter, and for some lines of work and study it continues to matter for a long time afterward. Much more than your actual classes or grades!!

And as you said - the middle class is now trying to pay to play in this tier of school… And it’s those people who are struggling to foot the bill.

I would love to one day see race-blind, gender-blind, and need-blind admissions criteria become the norm. I think most private colleges and universities have enough money to make this happen, if they choose to spend their endowments this way.

 

[Cerulean]

Hi,

People that did not take loans out for their education made sacrifices to get their degrees. They aren't saying "woe is me", , but recognize they had hardships along the way. And I think it is denigrating to those who did sacrifice to now call them out for being selfish, mean, and not caring about those who followed. in their footsteps. Those people who want total loan forgiveness don't want to make any sacrifices.

This situation is not like juniors and seniors now pick on the Freshman. The monetary costs here are enormous for the country to bear. And yes, I do think that as much as it is understandable that you would like forgiveness of your loans you do make it sound as if your entitled. In some ways you took the easy way out.

Education costs too much in this country. Free community colleges are a most, and trade schools. . This was like Field of Dreams. If you build it, they will come. Make low cost loans available, and they stampeded the schools and the banks..

I am for some forgiveness. But for those that denigrate others for finding a way to get through school, I would hope you would say Thanks, and not grumble and find others wanting. I think the mirror is a place to look.

Annette

I personally had no intention of denigrating people who made hard choices and sacrifices to avoid taking out loans.

But I do intend to highlight that wishing suffering on someone else because it was your experience (I’m not saying YOU in particular) is wholly selfish.

There are also plenty of people who take out loans that are also still working their butts off, and can’t get their heads above water. Of course there will always be people who take advantage, but that doesn’t mean we shoudnt accommodate the majority of people who don’t.

Almost every single one of my friends had jobs throughout college, and they also had massive loans anyways. Minimum wage jobs barely even covered living expenses, let alone make a dent in college tuition.

College costs today also do not hold a candle to college costs from the 1980s and prior. Just looking at a quick chart they’ve gone up 1200%. What a ludicrous figure! I’m not sure when people here attended, but I wanted to call that out.

There is no possible way for most people today or from the 2000s onwards to pay their way through college working waitressing jobs, service jobs or other labor that doesn’t require a degree. It’s literally impossible. My mother and father both paid cash for their degrees and worked hard to do it. I worked hard in high school and got excellent grades, so I got massive scholarships. Fast forward to college, I worked 40 hours a week between two part time jobs, did work study to get an extra 5k tuition break, AND went to school full time (in a dual degree program) and could barely afford rent and college supplies. I lived off dollar slices of pizza and cup o noodles. It was grueling. I made other stupid mistakes that cost more money in tuition because of transferring schools…but that’s a separate story. And still, I have tens of thousands of debt that I am paying off. My husband paid off his loans already.

So I genuinely ask, where does this picture of lazy loan-seekers come from?

 

[AprilBaby]

But where does loan forgiveness leave future college students?

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

One point is coming up again and again: "useless" education.

Paying for "useless" classes to work in a different field afterwards.


I think one of the biggest cultural differences to Europe is that here education is seen as valuable in itself. It's also not just some abstract concept of a dreamy minority... It is well known that for the concept of democracy to work one needs an extremely well educated electorate.

I have read her on PS that certain elites in the US are quite happy to withhold education from "the masses" in order to be able to push their agenda more easily.

While I'm convinced that (continental in this case) European elites do see "the masses" as lesser educated than themselves, the goal of furthering education regardless of income is a common one. There is no mainstream political party (left or right) that's on board with this.

The disdain for education that's not bankable or , worse education itself is nonexistent or belongs to very marginal fringe groups. Hence the general consensus that all education must remain free.

 

[rocks]

There is another issue rarely discussed. Since the 1980’s, many schools have increased the size of their administrative staff to double or triple the staff with little to no increase in teaching staff or in student population. What are they all doing? How much of the increase in tuition is attributable to all these new deans and assistants? Do they enhance the college or university experience/education in any meaningful way?

 

[Lookinagain]

there is so much societal value attached to the name brand school that even the rich and famous, who could set their kids up for comfortable lives without any school whatsoever, were willing to pay thousands, tends of thousands to cheat those schools’ admissions systems.

Yes, that is true. I personally think this is about parental bragging rights or ego.

I would love to one day see race-blind, gender-blind, and need-blind admissions criteria become the norm. I think most private colleges and universities have enough money to make this happen, if they choose to spend their endowments this way

Maybe some progress is being made on this front. I just received an email today from the school I attended for graduate school that said the following:

. . .will make an unprecedented $1 billion investment in financial aid for students, according to Chancellor. . . . This funding will allow the university to achieve its goal of adopting a need-blind undergraduate admissions policy, effective immediately.

Hopefully more schools will adopt the same policy.

 

[PinkAndBlueBling]

Another eye-opening thread. I wish there was a "JFC" emoji for some of these responses, because "wow" doesn't cut it.

I went to a top private university and it was expensive back then. I was clueless and just chose the closest school where I had friends. My mom ended-up paying for it via a loan because my dad flaked. My masters came from a top UC school that was less than 5% of my undergrad. I paid for that, but now the cost for the same program would be prohibitive. DD's and DH's masters were paid for by their employers.

And BTW, attending a state college here in CA (ya know, the 'cheap" colleges) will still cost roughly $100k+ for four years including living costs for those not at home. That's IF the school has your major, and if it's an impacted one good freaking luck being accepted. These colleges were created to serve the local communities, but that isn't the case anymore.

I'm not even going to discuss loan forgiveness. One DD went private and it was expensive. Guess I'm just one of those rich folks paying for name brand recognition. If only... It's no one's business how we paid for it, but I'll just say there's still a balance due. I told her to be a stripper and pay for it that way, but she refused. Kids!

 

[yssie]

I told her to be a stripper and pay for it that way, but she refused. Kids!

 

[yssie]

I've talked about this on PS before, but... My parents were far from wealthy growing up. My mother - solidly lower-middle class (in India). My father... Poverty doesn't begin to cover it. Also in India. School for him was a village teacher under a banyan tree. They usually didn't have enough rice for everyone, so he went without so his sisters wouldn't starve.

But Indian culture values education in a way that I have never seen outside Asia. Not in NZ, Not in Australia, not in the UK, not in France, not in the US. Culturally, Indian parents will willingly sacrifice everything they've got to give their children the best education they possibly can.

And with my grandparents' literally bone-breaking sacrifices - my dad was able to go to the best university in India. He was able to leave India and eventually land in the US. He was able to provide a life for his family that his parents had only dreamed of doing. My parents paid my fancy private university education in full. My dad credits his parents for everything he's achieved - he says that without their sacrifices he'd never have had any opportunities to take in the first place; he did his job by taking opportunities when they were made available to him and making the best of them.

And me? Oh, yeah, sure, I was a really good student, I worked really hard. But here's the thing. My dad is one of THE two smartest people I know. My husband is the other. And my dad is one of THE most hard-working people I know. And the reality of this world is that no matter how high he pulled his bootstraps, he could never pull himself up far enough to be in the position that I'm in, at my age. I'm where I am because multiple generations sacrificed to get me here. It takes multiple generations to turn sacrifice into success.

I have zero problem with demanding that people pull themselves up by their bootstraps. But not when the barrier to entry is the choices their parents and their grandparents and their great-grandparents made.

Grants based on continued academic achievement - maintain a B average or you're on your own. Loan forgiveness for public service, go straight to private sector - or keep going to school for additional degrees - and you're on your own. I don't have answers but I definitely don't agree with blanket forgiveness.

But - and part of this is cultural, I'm sure - I deliberately chose not to have children until I was confident I'd be able to pay for as much school as they might need to succeed in their chosen career(s). I feel that's my obligation, as a responsible parent. And I will readily admit that I think poorly of people who have kids without acknowledging and planning for that responsiblity. It is... Very unfortunate that said obligation is such an undue burden, but it is what it is and best plan for it up-front than simply hope it changes by the time it becomes personal.

 

[nala]

I thought of another one. Who sets the interest rates for mortgages? Bc it’s not fair that they are so low now compared to when some of us first bought homes! Yeah. Never mind that home prices have skyrocketed like college has, it’s not fair to those of us who had to pay higher interest rates in the past.

 

[Lookinagain]

I thought of another one. Who sets the interest rates for mortgages? Bc it’s not fair that they are so low now compared to when some of us first bought homes! Yeah. Never mind that home prices have skyrocketed like college has, it’s not fair to those of us who had to pay higher interest rates in the past.

Your post just reminded me that when I was in graduate school, the mortgage interest rate was just about 18%. Needless to say, I wasn't buying a house after graduation or when starting to work. This isn't a woe as me post, just a reminder of how things have changed. Now housing prices are ridiculously high in certain parts of the country but interest rates are extremely low. Back then, houses cost much less, but the interest rate still kept most from buying a house. I don't think it was ever really easy.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I thought of another one. Who sets the interest rates for mortgages? Bc it’s not fair that they are so low now compared to when some of us first bought homes! Yeah. Never mind that home prices have skyrocketed like college has, it’s not fair to those of us who had to pay higher interest rates in the past.

But is it fair for me/you to purchased our home for such a low price 35 yrs ago?. Higher interest rates will always = lower prices for a home, and lower interest rates will always = higher prices for a home. IMO, keeping interest rates too low for the past 10 yrs is the reason why we have this latest housing boom.

 

[nala]

But is it fair for me/you to purchased our home for such a low price 35 yrs ago?. Higher interest rates will always = lower prices for a home, and lower interest rates will always = higher prices for a home. IMO, low interest rates had been kept too low for the past 10 yrs thus causing this latest housing boom.

I was being sarcastic! My point is nothing is fair! Yet that is the argument that you made in that video you posted—bc you are that man, lol

 

[Dancing Fire]

I was being sarcastic! My point is nothing is fair! Yet that is the argument that you made in that video you posted—bc you are that man, lol

I am entitled for a reimbursement after paying for our DD's college tuitions. Should I start looking for my 5 ct stone?

 

[Cerulean]

I've talked about this on PS before, but... My parents were far from wealthy growing up. My mother - solidly lower-middle class (in India). My father... Poverty doesn't begin to cover it. Also in India. School for him was a village teacher under a banyan tree. They usually didn't have enough rice for everyone, so he went without so his sisters wouldn't starve.

But Indian culture values education in a way that I have never seen outside Asia. Not in NZ, Not in Australia, not in the UK, not in France, not in the US. Culturally, Indian parents will willingly sacrifice everything they've got to give their children the best education they possibly can.

And with my grandparents' literally bone-breaking sacrifices - my dad was able to go to the best university in India. He was able to leave India and eventually land in the US. He was able to provide a life for his family that his parents had only dreamed of doing. My parents paid my fancy private university education in full. My dad credits his parents for everything he's achieved - he says that without their sacrifices he'd never have had any opportunities to take in the first place; he did his job by taking opportunities when they were made available to him and making the best of them.

And me? Oh, yeah, sure, I was a really good student, I worked really hard. But here's the thing. My dad is one of THE two smartest people I know. My husband is the other. And my dad is one of THE most hard-working people I know. And the reality of this world is that no matter how high he pulled his bootstraps, he could never pull himself up far enough to be in the position that I'm in, at my age. I'm where I am because multiple generations sacrificed to get me here. It takes multiple generations to turn sacrifice into success.

I have zero problem with demanding that people pull themselves up by their bootstraps. But not when the barrier to entry is the choices their parents and their grandparents and their great-grandparents made.

Grants based on continued academic achievement - maintain a B average or you're on your own. Loan forgiveness for public service, go straight to private sector - or keep going to school for additional degrees - and you're on your own. I don't have answers but I definitely don't agree with blanket forgiveness.

But - and part of this is cultural, I'm sure - I deliberately chose not to have children until I was confident I'd be able to pay for as much school as they might need to succeed in their chosen career(s). I feel that's my obligation, as a responsible parent. And I will readily admit that I think poorly of people who have kids without acknowledging and planning for that responsiblity. It is... Very unfortunate that said obligation is such an undue burden, but it is what it is and best plan for it up-front than simply hope it changes by the time it becomes personal.

This rings very true from what I’ve seen with my other Indian friends. Their parents did everything to give them what they did not have educationally. I hold an admiration for that kind of dedication and sacrifice in a very deep part of my heart.

I have vowed that I will never do what my parents did regarding college. I never want my children to hold six figures in debt for merely wanting an education (and yes, from a GOOD school, *gasp*)

I agree that blanket forgiveness is not the answer. There must be a balance. I don’t know what the criteria should be for forgiveness, some kind of proof of earnest repayment and contribution to society, but I’ve no idea how to measure that

Obviously no one does.

I also agree with your other post about the prestigiousness of a school. For the middle class, admission into a top school just *might* be your ticket up to greater financial security, even if it means taking on a risky investment in your education.

Not only do you have attend the right school, you have to be scrappy, naturally intelligent, and shamelessly network. You have to know how to secure the right internships, then the right jobs. You then have to model yourself after people who have more money and power than you do, hoping that no one notices your bluff. And in the end, you may never exceed middle management, but you might earn enough to pay your loans off.

It’s a complicated game and not everyone is dealt the same hand. My husband and I did choose excellent schools. And there’s no way I would’ve gotten to where I am without that experience.

 

[seaurchin]

It seems to me inequitable to only forgive student debt to those who owe it because that ignores those who are hurting because they already sacrificed to pay their or their kids' student debt off and also those who are in college now or haven't enrolled yet.

But if that benefit was spread around more than just focused on those who currently have student debt, I'd agree. The rift between the rich and poor continues to grow, going in the direction of third world countries who have a small group of filthy rich people with everyone else forced into bleak lives of subsistence.

They just love to get the middle and working class fighting amongst themselves over the crumbs when the money should come out of greedy corporate profits, the bloated military budget and of course, the billionaires who walk on the backs of all and don't pay their fair share of taxes. Roughly put there but that's my sentiment in general. I am for more for the people and less for the high level grifters, in other words. Cutting college costs/debt and healthcare costs, raising the minimum wage and etc. It's not a handout, it's our fair share.