Do we have the right to judge others’ behavior in this pandemic?

[violet3]

I mentioned in another thread that I live in a hotspot for COVID, because it's a resort town and everyone is just behaving as if it's life as normal around here. Very few masks, and lots of idiotic behavior.

I judge. But I just do it in my head, because it would be worthless around here to try and talk to anyone around here about any of this. For now, I keep to myself, and I don't even go to the beach (which is a block from my home and my happy place) because there's no way to get away from the people. I wear a mask often, but not if I'm walking my dogs in the heat - I have one around my neck, and always stay more than 6 feet away from others.

The pickle I get into, is when someone wants to pet my dogs at night when they are drunk. I just tell them they bite . I literally watched a young woman drop her mask into a mud puddle and then put it back on her face, right before she said "I just realized I'm wearing one of Rachel's shoes, and one of my shoes." These people have no idea if they are even following the rules or not, because they likely don't remember the night before at all.

I do express my concern and judgement to my family members, who I think might not be behaving as strictly as I do. My dad has come around a little bit - at least he uses hand sanitizer or washes his hands more frequently than before. He resists things like this pretty hard. But.....I do also try to remember that I have OCD, so most people aren't likely to be as paranoid as I am, and that I am only responsible for my own actions.

One of my friends was not wearing a mask, but far away from anyone else and outside, when a man screamed at him and called him a selfish ******* for not wearing his mask. I'm not sure how that helps anyone at all. It sure didn't make him put the mask on.

This was a great question - I appreciated thinking about it!

 

[missy]

As you describe, your judgement here is that it is not safe to speak close up without a mask. That is an certainly appropriate and you acted accordingly. This could even have led to a further discussion...making an opportunity for dialogue and understanding between the two parties beyond the topic of your bike but thanking him for putting on a mask...emphasizing the importance to you and making an actual point without being pushy.

What you didn't do was to judge the person to be a stupid grandma killer who only ever thinks of himself and probable supports Trump (because who else could be that stupid?). You didn't say something like....if someone he loves dies of Covid maybe he will understand that masks are important. This kind of judgement only serves to make one feel self important and better than others. It is used to justify mistreatment and shaming of others. One thinks that the other so wrong that they actually deserve the mistreatment dolled out to them. This type of judgement serves no greater purpose whatsoever and is mostly what is seen in these threads.

Agreed. That’s not constructive and most likely wouldn’t be accurate either. He obliged my request and we were polite and civil and even enjoyed a short conversation. I think most (rational and civil) people when approached politely respond in kind.

We are all in this (mess) together and the best way through it is working together. IMO.

 

[joelly]

We have the right to judge other's behavior. This pandemic has nothing to do with it.

Judging other's behavior is the only sure way of learning from it and from ourselves. That is why there are so many people in this world, we are in constant learning from each other. From one to ninety two, learning is a must. Otherwise, we can't be the human we are meant to be, just people.

 

[Calliecake]

@1ofakind , For the record, I have not made comments to anyone not wearing a masks. I have not come into contact with them. My life has not gone on as normal since the virus hit. If I’m walking outside and I see someone headed in my direction not wearing a mask we immediately walk to the other side of the street. I am considerate of other people and do what I can to protect others. In my opinion, wearing a mask outside my home protects others and myself. That is why I wear a mask outside our home.

Please stop with the passive aggressive comments directed at me. If you feel shame, that is on you, not me. Never have I said anyone deserves to get and die from this virus. I did state that I felt there are risks people are taking that they probably would feel very differently about if the risks resulted in them losing a loved one.

I myself am taking this virus as you say “ @kenny serious “. @kenny I meant this as a compliment to you. People that are taking this virus seriously are helping people like my elderly parents and brother stay alive. Thank you.

 

[Arcadian]

if you (general you) do what you can to keep yourself and other's safe. If you (general you) are not out there partying your face off, taking jello shots off the ass of a stripper at the club, then no its not really my business. I won't lie about that. If you are hosting family and small circle of friends at your house within guidelines, its NOMMFB unless you wanna tell it, and even then I'm not gonna care.


Now, by the same token, if you (general you) are doing your thing, you've visited family at large gatherings, you eat inside restaurants often, You do shopping often and its not essential (gucci is not essential folks), and even clubbing (gasp!) or going to really big parties. Even worse making it rain at the strip club, and went on vacation even when you're state was on lockdown to a totally different location, but want to get mad at the government not doing more + you put that stupid crap all over social media....FTYIWJY

 

[1ofakind]

@Calliecake
I was not directing any comments to you. I didn’t say anything about you.
Nor do I feel shame for anything related to this subject. Why should I?

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Southeast Asia Detects Mutated Virus Strain Sweeping the World

Southeast Asia is facing a strain of the new coronavirus that the Philippines, which faces the region’s largest outbreak, is studying to see whether the mutation makes it more infectious.

www.bloomberg.com

I think we'll see more arrests and sentences passed because of people refusing to quarantine. Especially when this is a result.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Today we visited a local toy shop to get some activities for the kids. Everyone had on a mask but my older son was trying to look at some Matchbox cars when this man came right in front of him and started sifting through them. He was not 6 ft away so we had to backup, my husband was really annoyed to the point that I thought he might say something. He is one of those that will same something within earshot in a very passive aggressive manner when he gets upset.

I observed this man for a while and then watched him walk up to an employee with a question, it was obvious he had some sort of impairment to the point I believe that he was probably unaware that we were too close.

Now, I could have easily judged and reacted but I'm glad that I took a moment because he was not doing this in any type of malicious manner. For myself and our children I try to have them consider before reacting. Of course I also try to encourage DH not to assume the worst of people all the time, it's a work in progress for sure!

To answer the question, it's human to judge and sometimes that is almost involuntary but we can choose how to react.

 

[1ofakind]

For myself and our children I try to have them consider before reacting.

As a parent of someone who is HFA...I really appreciate this and wish more people take time as well.
He struggled with the mask initially but has adapted very well to wearing one. He has had zero problems social distancing. It’s like he’s been practicing all his life and he’s finally in the game. He’s a social distance champ!!!

 

[YadaYadaYada]

@1ofakind, I have to say that I love "social distance champ" we need to put that on a mask!

 

[doberman]

As a parent of someone who is HFA...I really appreciate this and wish more people take time as well.
He struggled with the mask initially but has adapted very well to wearing one. He has had zero problems social distancing. It’s like he’s been practicing all his life and he’s finally in the game. He’s a social distance champ!!!

HFA? Highly functional autistic? Sorry if that's not what you meant, I was just wondering.

Everybody judges everybody else. Its a fact of life. If I'm going to be out where there are people I wear a mask. When I walk my dog in the woods I don't wear a mask, but I'm on my property the whole time. I do believe that people should be kicked off airplanes and buses for not wearing a mask, and that those who won't wear a mask are selfish idiots and I don't want to interact with them.

 

[voce]

I try not to judge those who are abiding by the rules but have a higher risk tolerance than me. If the government and its scientific advisors have deemed certain activities as an acceptable risk to society, who am I to know better? There are exceptions that drive me mad and make me extremely judgmental though!

I am rankled beyond belief by people who walk around with their nose hanging out of their masks; for illogical reasons it annoys me more than someone not wearing one in the first place. That one is outside of the government’s rules but I wouldn’t comment for fear of not knowing how the person might react.

I’m staggered by the number of people who’ve told me that they feel too worried to return to work but have jetted off on international holidays this summer - risk associated with work is more worth taking for me than that associated with a frivolous holiday, and I do feel judgmental about those who prioritise pleasure over work and safety.

I’m also intensely annoyed by all the idiots in the press who are criticising the U.K. government for “ruining their holidays” by imposing quarantine restrictions at short notice on people returning from countries with soaring infection rates. Their sense of entitlement to have an uninterrupted holiday in the middle of a pandemic beggars belief, but unfortunately they have the legal right to swan around the globe and so do. One man was even quoted as saying that the government should pay people to quarantine as they were unexpectedly missing work - seriously, if you leave the country during a pandemic, you have to expect legislation to change swiftly and that you might be caught out! We chose to stay at home this year because it seems both the sensible and moral thing to do in the current situation.

I was surprised in another thread by the number of people who said they wouldn’t immediately take up a vaccine if and when one becomes available, instead preferring to wait and see about side effects.

Full altruism, for me, is acting for the greater good even when there’s a neutral or potentially worse outcome for you as an individual. I think it’s fairly easy at the moment as isolating serves not only the greater good but also serves to reduce risk for the person isolating, so their own benefit and that of society are intertwined.

The true altruists, for me, will be the ones who immediately take up a vaccine once offered, rather than waiting to see if others have negative reactions to it. (That’s assuming that the vaccine is deemed clinically safe and that the person doesn’t have a history of dangerous reactions to vaccines.). Those are the people who have full right to judge in my book.

I used to be illogically more peeved by people walking around with noses hanging out of masks, too, until I came across a study (scientific microdroplet simulation) that showed that the viral load of someone breathing normally is 3-5 orders of magnitude less than the viral load of someone coughing. Combining that with the videos showing microdroplets from talking vs coughing, it convinces me that someone simply breathing with their nose outside the mask does not pose a great threat to my health and safety, as long as they keep their mouths behind masks. Talking produces microdroplets much more than simply breathing, probably by 2-3 orders of magnitude, and talking behind a mask only mitigates 50%-80% of the microdroplets, so talking face-to-face is what we should avoid more so than people who have noses out of masks.

Regarding vaccines, I think people's skepticism towards them are justified based on instances of vaccines failing in the past. My own father was 2 years old in 1960 China when his father, a Director of a major hospital, gave him a dose of the polio vaccine the Soviets gifted China. My dad contracted polio from the polio vaccine itself. My father's contracting polio from the vaccine led to repressed guilt in my grandfather, which caused him to abuse my father and profoundly impacted my father's life in a turn for the worse. I think had he been administered a later version of the polio vaccine, after the Sabin vaccine became the standard in 1962, he might not have contracted polio from the vaccine. I think it's fair to ascertain that a vaccine does not have serious unintended side effects before you take it. If there's multiple COVID-19 vaccines in the pipeline, the third or fourth to be FDA approved might be better than the first one to be FDA approved.

Yes, true altruists would be the ones who immediately take up a vaccine once offered, as volunteer human experiment subjects. There's even people who have volunteered to be injected with the virus itself in China in order to produce experimental results for the scientists developing vaccines. Does altruism itself warrant people to have more "right" to judge others? Someone connect the dots for me, please; I don't see why an act of altruism should in and of itself confer more power or authority.

 

[seaurchin]

Regarding vaccines, I think people's skepticism towards them are justified based on instances of vaccines failing in the past. My own father was 2 years old in 1960 China when his father, a Director of a major hospital, gave him a dose of the polio vaccine the Soviets gifted China. My dad contracted polio from the polio vaccine itself. My father's contracting polio from the vaccine led to repressed guilt in my grandfather, which caused him to abuse my father and profoundly impacted my father's life in a turn for the worse. I think had he been administered a later version of the polio vaccine, after the Sabin vaccine became the standard in 1962, he might not have contracted polio from the vaccine. I think it's fair to ascertain that a vaccine does not have serious unintended side effects before you take it. If there's multiple COVID-19 vaccines in the pipeline, the third or fourth to be FDA approved might be better than the first one to be FDA approved.

I am all for vaccines but have also thought that I might wait a bit once a Covid-19 vaccine becomes available. Due to it being a pandemic, I could definitely seeing corners being cut to get it out as quickly as possible. Since I'm able to stay at home for the most part, I think I'll hang back to be sure it goes well.

 

[voce]

I am all for vaccines but have also thought that I might wait a bit once a Covid-19 vaccine becomes available. Due to it being a pandemic, I could definitely seeing corners being cut to get it out as quickly as possible. Since I'm able to stay at home for the most part, I think I'll hang back to be sure it goes well.

Yeah, that's my concern as well. There may be quality issues that render the vaccine less than ideal if they are too hasty in rushing to produce the vaccine.

 

[lissyflo]

Does altruism itself warrant people to have more "right" to judge others? Someone connect the dots for me, please; I don't see why an act of altruism should in and of itself confer more power or authority.

Altruism doesn’t confer power or authority - I said that altruism, in my view, gives someone more right to make a judgement on how others behave in this pandemic; given that the judgement referred to in this conversation is about behaviour in a pandemic and whether we should act to consider the best interests of others (by wearing masks, distancing, isolating as much as possible, etc), altruism is the furthest possible end of a sliding scale.

‘Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones’ is a common proverb for a reason. Don’t judge others when to do so is hypocritical. It’s the same reason that convicted criminals aren’t generally allowed to sit on juries to judge others’ behaviour. Society accepts that you shouldn’t sit in judgement of others if your own behaviour isn’t consistent with whatever morality is relevant. The flipside is that your judgment or commentary is more likely to be respected and taken on board if your behaviour is exemplary; in the context of a pandemic, exemplary behaviour is altruistic behaviour because the virus infects society. Hence my belief re: a greater right to judgement in that context.

Wearing cloth masks is largely altruistic - they do little to protect the wearer and significantly more to protect others - but involves no or little risk to the individual wearing the mask. Taking an early vaccine, to me, is more altruistic as it involves the potential for risk to yourself (unexpected side effects etc) but would enable the immune-compromised etc to return to normal society once we hit herd immunity from vaccination. I would be more receptive of criticism or comment on my actions from someone who made all their decisions in the best interests of society. If we all use others as guinea pigs and wait to see if a better/safer/more effective vaccine option comes along later, then no-one will ever take the vaccine and so no improvements to it will ever materialise for anyone to benefit from.

That’s what interested me in the other thread: trying to work out where the judgement changes for most people, from doing what’s right for others as a.whole (masks, distancing, isolating, closing schools, avoiding restaurants) to doing what’s arguably right for themselves as an individual (waiting to take a later, improved vaccine).

(I have no idea what I’d do re: getting a vaccine btw, so no judgement from me, just interest in where the psychological dividing line is!)

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

@voce your poor father.

That's really messed up.