Discussion topic time

[cherry_vanilla]

I''ve been AFK (actually, AFP - away from PS - would probably be better!) for a while due to starting my internship. I''ve been skimming some of the entries that I missed - congrats to everyone who got engaged in the meantime!

Anyway, in the time since I''ve been on two of my friends ended their engagements. Not surprisingly, both girls got engaged before the 2 year mark (one of them before the one year mark!) and both ended in way less time than my boyfriend and I have been together. Granted both of my friends were on the young side (20 and 22) so coupled with a quick race to the engagement line and the fact that neither relationship had any more "marriage planning" to it than a pretty ring and calling him fiance instead of boyfriend... it''s not completely shocking that the relationships eventually ended. I''m not uber-close to either of them, but it was pretty clear to a number of our mutual friends that they both rushed into it as some sort of "relationship insurance," either to justify moving in together or a band-aid to not so good LDR communication. Not that we''d hope they''d break up or anything, just slow the heck down before it backfired!

And even though I rationally know that both my friends were not in stable enough relationships to honestly consider marriage beyond the Barbie Dream Wedding, it still kind of shook me up. Not in the "OMG if they broke up we have no chance!!1" way or anything, but it''s strange, unsettling almost to see people taking back that serious step that I''m (mostly) ready for but waiting on. I''d probably be more unsettled had they been in stable, healthy relationships that were ready for marriage in the not too distant future since that could be me in a year or two moreso than this particular situation, but I''d be lying if it didn''t make me think.

I tried explaining it to my boyfriend (who I already have to hold back from leaping into full-on planning mode and telling everyone when we''re getting married before we''re engaged, but that''s another topic entirely!) and he just saw it as crappy doomed for failure relationships ending where they now have to give back the ring or wind up on Judge Judy big deal.

We all know what it''s like when your friends/family gets engaged before you, so how do you all feel when those very engagements break up before yours starts?

 

[Independent Gal]

Cherry V: this makes me wonder even more about something I''ve been wondering about lately. A few people have posted about being ''the last one'' to get engaged in their circle of friends. I wonder what it is EXACTLY that makes this matter? It obviously DOES matter because so many people bring it up. I remember having this feeling once or twice too, when most of my friends had found great partners (even if they weren''t planning on marriage). At those times, my step-dad pointed out to me that, while of course I wouldn''t WISH this on anyone, relationships ebb and flow, people get together, people split up. People marry. People divorce. It''s only from the perspective of the very beginnings of adult life that it looks like a line pointing forward in one direction. From further along, the paths get all jumbled up. Sure enough, one of the ''best'' couples in my circle, who are married, are having serious trouble now.

So why do we find ourselves wanting not to be ''the last one''? That means we''re comparing ourselves to others and considering others'' perceptions of our relationships. What is it that having the ring on our finger does for us ''publicly'', rather than the private commitment between ourselves and our FI''s? Why does it feel bad when people say ''When are you two going to tie the knot already?'' (although since FF and I have been together less than a year, no one is saying that to us, for sure!)

In a nutshell, I''m asking: What''s the ''public'' value of the engagement to you? There certainly IS one for all of us, maybe more for some than for others. What does it affirm in public terms?

Just something I''m thinking over lately which seems to fit in to your post. I have some thoughts, but would love to hear yours.

 

[cherry_vanilla]

IG - I've wondered that too. Since I'm on the young side, I'm far from the "last one left" and probably won't ever be in that position so my thoughts will be very different from say, the LIWs who's been done with school for years and years and coming close to a decade of "just dating" and literally ARE the last in their social circle to not be engaged.

Engagement really is nowadays as much a public status as a private declaration. In my case, we are waiting until we're closer to the wedding date to "go public" since to us, engagement = planning for wedding and being in a stable, longterm relationship that's not going anywhere is planning for the marriage (which is where we're at now)

I and probably a number of LIWs feel uncomfortable being public about wedding/marriage plans without the "official" engagement because in at least my case, I know I won't be taken seriously due to my age (see my post on how pre-pre-marital counseling completelt backfired) There are far too many "girls who cry wolf" so to speak. Going through that formal ritual (and that's really all it is, the public shebang) does act as proof of your intentions. Again, my feelings on this heavily tie into me being young and one year away from graduating so it could be entirely different.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 6/7/2007 10:46:00 AM
Author: Independent Gal
It''s only from the perspective of the very beginnings of adult life that it looks like a line pointing forward in one direction. From further along, the paths get all jumbled up.

Agree 10000% Very well put!

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 6/7/2007 10:34:38 AM
Author:cherry_vanilla
We all know what it''s like when your friends/family gets engaged before you, so how do you all feel when those very engagements break up before yours starts?

I can''t speak to this exact scenario ... but I''ve had a similar situation arise. We had approx 80 guests at our October wedding ... five couples that attended are either seperated or divorced just seven months later. Most of whom posed happily for gorgeous portraits they''ll never receive, because we couldn''t even get PRINTS to them before their relationships dissolved. These are 10+ year unions ... some family members, some close friends, some work associates. We hadn''t even taken our HONEYMOON before the best man finalized his divorce. You just never know.

 

[Haven]

Cherry--welcome back to PS! I have only known one serious couple that has broken up after getting engaged, but their circumstances were not normal: they dated for ten years, she finally put him on a "deadline", and it was clear that he really would have rather remained her boyfriend. Both were in their mid 30s, and to be honest, it wasn''t shocking when they parted.

I''m only 26, but I have a circle of extremely level-headed friends and, although some of the men have needed a bit of pushing along, none of them have rushed into an engagement. One pair only dated for two years before he popped the question, and then they had a year long engagement--that is the shortest timeline among my friends.

We''ve talked about the difference between people who live in big cities and people who don''t, and I''m curious--are you in a rural, suburban, or urban area? It sounds like urbanites take more time to get to the engagement stage than others.

IndependentGal--your question, "What''s the ''public'' value of the engagement to you? . . . What does it affirm in public terms?" is something I''ve also thought a lot about, mostly because I am an extremely private person. (In fact--I''ve shared more with the PS community about my relationship than I have with anyone else, other than my boyfriend and my closest friend, of course.)

In terms of public pressure to get married, I must say it seems like people throw everything they know about etiquette and decorum out the window when it comes to asking people questions about their relationships. I have coworkers who have grabbed my left hand and declared "Still no ring?!" in front of several other people. I cannot even tell you how many times mere acquaintances have asked me "SO, when is it going to happen?" These questions are all extremely rude, of course, but they also add up to pressure from the "public" to make a real commitment. So to answer your question, I think the public value of the engagement is that it seems to somehow confirm that you are in a real relationship, and yes, it is up to the standards that society expects (e.g. ring, engagement, commitment, et cetera.) It''s almost as if the general public (meaning your colleagues and peers, of course) doesn''t believe that you are in a truly serious relationship until you go through the traditional rite of passage which is a formal engagement.

Of course, each individual knows their own relationship better than anyone else, and no piece of jewelry or promise can truly represent how serious or "real" a relationship is. But we live in a society, and regardless of what we know to be true, it is difficult to escape the conventions and expectations of the cultural machine.

Wow, sorry for the babbling on--I have officially begun to use PS as an excuse to put off writing my masters thesis!

 

[FLgirl41]

Date: 6/7/2007 10:34:38 AM
Author:cherry_vanilla

And even though I rationally know that both my friends were not in stable enough relationships to honestly consider marriage beyond the Barbie Dream Wedding, it still kind of shook me up. Not in the ''OMG if they broke up we have no chance!!1'' way or anything, but it''s strange, unsettling almost to see people taking back that serious step that I''m (mostly) ready for but waiting on. I''d probably be more unsettled had they been in stable, healthy relationships that were ready for marriage in the not too distant future since that could be me in a year or two moreso than this particular situation, but I''d be lying if it didn''t make me think.

We all know what it''s like when your friends/family gets engaged before you, so how do you all feel when those very engagements break up before yours starts?

Date: 6/7/2007 10:46:00 AM
Author: Independent Gal

"So why do we find ourselves wanting not to be ''the last one''? That means we''re comparing ourselves to others and considering others'' perceptions of our relationships. What is it that having the ring on our finger does for us ''publicly'', rather than the private commitment between ourselves and our FI''s? Why does it feel bad when people say ''When are you two going to tie the knot already?'' (although since FF and I have been together less than a year, no one is saying that to us, for sure!)

In a nutshell, I''m asking: What''s the ''public'' value of the engagement to you? There certainly IS one for all of us, maybe more for some than for others. What does it affirm in public terms?

Just something I''m thinking over lately which seems to fit in to your post. I have some thoughts, but would love to hear yours. "


I very much agree with what people are saying, but I tend to disagree within my situation. Now I don''t know if I am just bias because it is me, or if it is that my bf and i talk about things exactly like this topic.

To comment on the first highlighted area; my bf and I have a very open relationship, in the sense of communicating. Because of this open communication our relationship is extremely stable. We tend to observe relationships all around us, and i feel like you can tell the ones which are doomed from day one. I know, not really friends with, people who are either engaged or say they are getting engaged, who cheat, talk horribly, and treat horribly their significant others. It hurts to see this oh so often in people. Getting engaged is a commitment to your significant other. You are telling this person you are ready to spend the rest of your life with them. Yes you may be strongly in love with that person, but if you can''t make it work before you are engaged and make that commitment before you are doomed. Honesty and communication is such a strong part of a relationship. And I think some couples tend to think that they have been with this person so long and the love is there that they think that is what they are supposed to do, until later they realize the commitment is not there.

To comment on the second part; in our extended circle of friends we know one couple who is engaged, the rest have the mentality that as soon as you get engaged and married your life is so different that you can''t have fun. If I talk to them about getting engaged they tell me I am crazy and that they don''t even see it in the far furture. So to me my "need" to be engaged is not a public issue or an excuse to move in with him, we''ve been living together for over 2 years. To me being engaged is the first "technical step" of commiting the rest of my life to him. I quote technical step because he and i have made that committment quite some time ago. We communicate our feelings on a regular basis, we address issues as they arise and not let them build up; i feel this is why I know we differ from other couples. We are headed in the same direction and want the same things in our lives. I don''t have the worry of being the last one, it is the opposite for me I will probably be one of the first, but that is fine with me, no matter how crazy my friends think I am. I know that we are ready and the time is perfect! So for me i feel there is no public value in getting engaged and married. I can only see the inner relationship value.

 

[sumbride]

I saw three engagements fizzle out before ours began, and though I kept telling myself "whew, ok, so three is it", we were all actually relieved at every single one of the breakups. Why? Because we could clearly tell that these people weren''t meant to be together. It was obvious to us, outside of the relationship, and eventually it became obvious to them. Only one of them ended amicably. One involved a restraining order! But with all the drama, at least they didn''t get married.

One of my college friends, the one who was first to marry, is recently divorced and as happy as I''ve ever seen her. There were clear signs they shouldn''t have married too, but she ignored them. She learned a lot from that relationship and was able to establish her own business while they were married, so she wouldn''t have wished it away, but she''s doing better now.

The thing is... getting engaged is the EASY part. It doesn''t mean you''ve really accomplished anything. Building a marriage is the HARD part. That''s where the real work is. It helps when you know the person well enough to know you can work through things... a lot of people think they can figure that out later... and maybe you can, but for most people, it''s good to know ahead of time.

When we got engaged we got a round of "About time!" and "you two are so great together" and not a single "are you SURE?" We''ve also been together almost five years, in adult (not college) time, which does count for a lot. I think we''re ready. I''m not nervous about my friends that divorced and broke up... we''re not like them.