Custom setting vendor needed for 1925 Tiffany Asscher ER

[john_john]

So I'm still waiting on a couple quotes. When I have them all, I wanted to ask for a final set of opinions.

One of the things I'm trying to be smart about this time is how the jeweler can have correct measurements of the setting before any metal work. I've had some jewelers suggest sending wax settings to us to review, others suggest CAD modeling, and others keep it simple with the sketches.

From your experiences, is sketching really useful for figuring out exact measurements of this setting? I assume CAD would provide more measurements, but would they be able to send CAD images comparable to the original images angles and scale? Should I be requesting a wax ring to be sent by whomever does the work, and do my comparison photo shoot as I did with my first reproduction?

If you've done a reproduction job like this, I'd love to hear your thoughts and suggestions.

 

[liaerfbv]

So I'm still waiting on a couple quotes. When I have them all, I wanted to ask for a final set of opinions.

One of the things I'm trying to be smart about this time is how the jeweler can have correct measurements of the setting before any metal work. I've had some jewelers suggest sending wax settings to us to review, others suggest CAD modeling, and others keep it simple with the sketches.

From your experiences, is sketching really useful for figuring out exact measurements of this setting? I assume CAD would provide more measurements, but would they be able to send CAD images comparable to the original images angles and scale? Should I be requesting a wax ring to be sent by whomever does the work, and do my comparison photo shoot as I did with my first reproduction?

If you've done a reproduction job like this, I'd love to hear your thoughts and suggestions.

I think one thing you need to keep in mind during this project is the setting will be made for YOUR stone. You can get a really great replica made that may have very minor deviations due to the dimensions of your stone vs. the stone in the model setting. I'm not sure you can get a perfect 100% spot on replica without the original setting in hand (as others have told you). For me, I would want to see CADs and a wax model before production. I wouldn't trust the proportions to a sketch. You can request certain CAD angles, but also be aware that CAD images show a variation from the final product as well due to the extra metal that's lost during polishing. You can look back through threads for the correct # but I want to say it's like 10% more refined from the CAD to the final product. I think there's a thread in SMTB that Niel started where people posted their CADs vs. the final ring for comparison just to give you an idea.

And FWIW (I'm not sure if you edited your post to remove this question), people don't usually post exact quotes here - mostly they give a range for each vendor. It's hard because the vendor quotes are specific to your stone and your setting, so if someone reads here that you got a quote from ERD for 2k, they contact ERD expecting their ring to be 2k and that's not always the case.

 

[mandasand]

Check out the "eye candy" section...that setting looks very similar to the one you're trying to recreate.

I almost bought the ring you are replicating but it was super expensive - I think $20k.

 

[john_john]

liaerfbv:

Thanks for the helpful information and advice. I didn't really mention this, but I'm only considering hand-forged quotes, so the CAD is only going to be used as a reference for dimensions or perhaps a prototype they'll use while doing the work. There won't be any casting involved.

mandasand:

I'll definitely show those photos to the jeweler I go with. Those photos show the cathedral at a much better angle.

 

[john_john]

Victor Canera turned down my request for his own reasons. I have quotes from the following vendors:

Juan Da Silva at Fourtane: Lowest cost
23rd Street Jewelers: $200 more
Engagement Rings Direct: $250 more
Steven Kirsch: $800 more
Leon Mege: $1000 more
Singlestone: $3000 more

I'm leaning towards 23rd Street as the price includes CAD and a mailed wax prototype before the hand fabrication metal work. They seem to be a favored vendor here as well. My only concern with them is that I don't know the master jeweler who is actually doing the work.

I'm also strongly considering Juan Da Silva, ERD, and SK. Juan will draw sketches in exact size and scale of the final ring. ERD will CAD may be open to sending a wax prototype for us to review like 23rd Street. Like 23rd Street, I also don't know who the master jeweler is for ERD's hand fab work. If I go with Juan, he will do the design and work. The question is, can he do hand fab well and would it be riskier to go with him. I still have to figure out how SK goes about modeling/sketching. It looks like he's opposed to CAD modeling, so he must only sketch.

 

[MollyMalone]

Given the concerns you've expressed about who might be doing the actual fabrication should you opt for ERD or 23rd Street, let me draw your attention to #28 on LM's FAQ page:
Can I request to have my ring to be made personally by Mr. Megé?
Yes. Right after Mr. Jobs assembles your iPhone with his own hands. We work as a team, Mr. Megé is personally involved in every aspect of production. He is the heart and brains of Leon Megé Inc. and he is responsible for every piece we make. When a finished piece leaves the shop, it is distinctly “Leon Megé,” just as if he were to have made it himself.
https://leonmege.com/index.php/policies/frequently-asked-questions

 

[john_john]

Quick correction on the vendor quotes. 23rd street ended up having the best quote:

23rd Street Jewelers: lowest cost
Juan Da Silva at Fourtane (he designs, other guy does the work): $300 more
Engagement Rings Direct: $550 more
Steven Kirsch: $1100 more
Leon Mege: $1300 more
Juan Da Silva at Fourtane (he designs and does the work): $2800 more
Singlestone: $3300 more

I decided to work with 23rd Street Jewelers. We're going to CAD, then machine-cut a wax ring prototype for final review, then they'll use that prototype as a reference (along with the CAD model) when doing the hand fabricated work. I've been assured multiple times that there will be no casting or use of cast parts or pre-fabricated parts.

This feels like a good strategy to do this reproduction well. I also provided the specs of the first reproduction attempt so they can have that as a reference when they make changes to the side stone sizes, etc.

Look for CAD renderings in the next week or so!

 

[Gypsy]

Hope it works out exactly as you wanted.

 

[john_john]

My luck couldn't get much worse. After sending my diamond and waiting for 1 1/2 weeks, 23rd Street's jeweler decided they weren't interested or confident in doing the reproduction. I provided all the info from the first reproduction attempt and I think they lost interest.

Tomorrow morning I'll pick my third jeweler (third times a charm), and I'm trying to decide between Engagement Rings Direct and Steven Kirsch.

I like ERDs approach. We're going to CAD, then ship a prototype, then the ring will be hand-fabricated with a CAD and prototype reference.

SK also sounds great to work with and he felt confident in being able to do an accurate reproduction. He'd provide photos during the fabrication process for review and to make sure the setting is shaping up the way I'd like. I asked what his methodology is for identifying the measurements needed to reproduce the ring and he gave an explanation that the dimensions are proportional with the center stone I provide. He feels that sketching on scale and modeling don't aid him. Perhaps he gets into the metal work and figures it out as he goes along?

If I go with ERD, I'll have the modeling/prototyping phase which I feel will reduce the risk of having an outcome like the first repro attempt. If I go with SK, I have to have faith that he knows how to figure out the dimensions.

My decision will be made tomorrow morning. If anyone has any words of wisdom or opinions on who to choose, I'd be happy to hear from you. Thanks! Will update later with my decision.

 

[glitterpants]

Are you in Northern California? If so, you may want to visit Alix & Co. http://alixandcompany.com/
When my friend was getting engaged, she went to their shop and had good things to say about their work. Also, according to the examples on their website, it looks like they do floral, vintage settings well.

 

[Niel]

Ugh that sucks john john.

I'm so sorry this experience isn't fun. I guess when you're very particular that can happen. At least you've got a good attitude about it. If I were you as particular as you are I'd was to work with ERD

once this is done it'll be worth it. Shell have the perfect ring for years and all you had to do was deal with making it for a few months

 

[distracts]

Quite honestly, my advice would be to either go with Singlestone, who has already made a good repro of this ring (with the noted differences, which it sounds like the owner wanted), or become less picky. If you're going with someone who hasn't proven they can do what you want, there's usually a pretty decent chance they can't provide it. I'd go with the proven vendor, even if it's more expensive.

 

[starrylight]

Honestly, vendors read these threads. I'm not surprised that that combined with your issues with the previous setting have caused multiple vendors to believe that they wouldn't be able to make a handforged (innately imperfect) setting to your high standards. I think you're too much of a perfectionist (not a bad trait when you're spending this much cash) to rule out CADs. Look at the David klaus settings in show me the bling.

 

[Travelgal]

After your troubles so far, I would also reconsider Singlestone. While their prices are higher and you might have to wait longer, their craftmanship is superb. Plus all they are experts in antique styles. I have been to their store many times and can attest that their quality is second to none. I have definitely suffered from sticker shock, but over the lifetime of the ring it might be worth it.

 

[john_john]

@Niel: Thanks for the kind words. I'm in agreement with you that ERD is the right choice.

@starrylight: I agree. CADs and prototyping feel like the no-brainer to me given my desire to get it right.

@distracts & @TravelGal: I hear ya, but honestly SingleStone is outside of my budget. I won't consider them for this project.

Going with ERD for round 3. I'll post CADs and photos of the prototype ring when it arrives. They have a 2 week break, so we'll get started designing/modeling around July 14th.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I absolutely think the ring needs to be made CAD/cast and not handforged. That is the only way for you to visually see exactly what you're going to get. Nothing at all is wrong with cast. I am sure most of Tiffany's rings are cast today.

I agree with SS being too high. It is a shame, but they really are too high.

 

[Travelgal]

They did a fabulous job with redroze's ring so I am sure you will be in good hands as well. I totally understand the budget constraints with SS as one of the settings I was looking at with them was about the same cost of the diamond and I just couldn't justify it... Now if I win the lottery, it will be a totally different story.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/modern-vintage-ring-from-erd.201518/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/modern-vintage-ring-from-erd.201518/[/URL]

 

[starrylight]

@starrylight: I agree. CADs and prototyping feel like the no-brainer to me given my desire to get it right.

You misunderstand. I think you should get a CAD ring as it would allow you to see what you are getting before you get it and potentially have a chance to change things before the ring is complete. Look at the engagement ring in the below link, that is CAD. Handforged is not inherently better than CAD.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/david-klass-engraved-platinum-wedding-band.203619/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/david-klass-engraved-platinum-wedding-band.203619/[/URL]

 

[OECsareforLovers]

I absolutely think the ring needs to be made CAD/cast and not handforged. That is the only way for you to visually see exactly what you're going to get. Nothing at all is wrong with cast. I am sure most of Tiffany's rings are cast today.

I agree with SS being too high. It is a shame, but they really are too high.

X2. I really think you need to do CADs and have the ring cast. If you go hand fab you need to be OKAY with some things not turning out exactly like the repo.

 

[distracts]

Ditto. CAD and CAST, not handforged. If you do it in CAD and then it is cast, you'll get what you saw in the CAD. If you do a CAD prototype and then it is handforged... there is still room for error, and quite frankly you are making the process unnecessarily difficult. I understand that you have certain desires, but imo it seems that what you want and what you are willing to pay for it aren't lining up, and so concessions may need to be made.

 

[oldcutclubmember]

I absolutely think the ring needs to be made CAD/cast and not handforged. That is the only way for you to visually see exactly what you're going to get. Nothing at all is wrong with cast. I am sure most of Tiffany's rings are cast today.

I agree with SS being too high. It is a shame, but they really are too high.

I think CAD/CAST the way to go as well. My handforged ring is not perfect and there are asymmetric elements here and there. For example, the two catheral shanks are not curved at the exact same angle and one is skinnier than the other. I think for what you are looking for, an exact replica, you shouldn't risk handforged. Even if you are 100% satisfied with the cad rendering, it doesn't guarantee that a bench will be able to duplicate the cad with every little detail while handforging the ring. The only way to guarantee that is to cast the ring from the cad

 

[john_john]

First draft CAD renderings are in from ERD. I prefer sharing these photos on imgur because you can see larger images compared to the PS photos. Here's the imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/Izmwj

For those who prefer to see the images on PS: here they are:


These are some of the measurements from the modeled ring:

1- Height from Diamond table to the bottom of the shank is 6.5-mm
2- Shank width is 1.3-mm from underneath marquise-shaped side stone area and tapers to 1.7-mm at the 6 o'clock position for strength and stability
3- Length of marquise-shaped side stone area is approx 7-mm
4- Side stone diameters are 1.3-mm, 1.8-mm, 1.3-mm


For reference, here are the specs I have of the first reproduction setting which didn't work out:

head height (base to tip of prong): 6.4mm
shank width (at thinnest): 1.1mm
shank width (at thickest point of marquise-shaped side stone area): 2.1mm or 2.2mm
length of marquise-shaped side stone area: 9.9mm
side stone details: single cut, J VS quality
side stone closest to center diamond: 1.2mm diameter
side stone second closest to center diamond (center side stone): 1.6mm diameter
side store third closest to center diamond: 1.4mm diameter

I'll have time this evening to carefully review, but a few things could use some refinement:

1. head filigree (has the same problems of the first reproduction. lines not merging into one, causing head height to be too tall)
2. prong shape
3. bottom of head being octagonal vs round
4. I'm worried about these carved-looking lines on the shank just before the marquise-shaped side stone area begins:

 

[john_john]

Comparison photos of the original vs first draft CADs: http://imgur.com/a/cOBKM

 

[john_john]

Second round of CADs are in. Here they are alongside the original ring photos: http://imgur.com/a/D1Ng3

 

[yasssss]

this is going to be a beauty! what a wonderful repro!

 

[Acinom]

Ah, you are creating such a beautiful ring. It's going to be stunning!

 

[john_john]

Third iteration of renderings tried to address my requirements to reduce the head size to match the original. I'm now 30 days into this modeling/design phase. The prongs and filigree in the head are way off and have been since the first iteration of renderings.

Waiting now to a final v4 version of renderings which are supposed to finally provide an accurate model of the prongs and head. Not sure if they're going to be able to pull it off though based on the last three versions. We'll see next week.

Both images are scaled appropriately based on the known ring sizes (original: 5, CAD: 8 1/

 

[Niel]

Can you maybe point out what's "way off" about it?

 

[john_john]

Can you maybe point out what's "way off" about it?

Prongs
Prongs aren't wide and wrapping like a page fold like the original. This photos best shows it:


Head
The filigree lines in the head are not merging into one another like the original. They lines are instead stacking when they intersect. Also, the rounder endpoints on the filigree curls are missing like the original. Also, the top rim of the head and how it connects and becomes part of the prong is very different compared to the original.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Great comparison photos. The differences are night and day to me. I much prefer the original setting - did they commit to making an exact replica? For this ring, I think I would have done CAD/CAST to get the exact feel.