momhappy|1409322163|3741379 said:I do not believe that it's fair to label a 9 year-old an idiot - she was simply doing what she was told. Having absolutely no sympathy is pretty harsh IMO, but I suppose that's your prerogative
monarch64|1409322542|3741386 said:momhappy|1409322163|3741379 said:I do not believe that it's fair to label a 9 year-old an idiot - she was simply doing what she was told. Having absolutely no sympathy is pretty harsh IMO, but I suppose that's your prerogative
Yup, it IS my prerogative. What is the age we adults have deemed that children know the difference between right and wrong? 7? It is my opinion that a 9 year old who has decided she likes shooting guns could have known that an Uzi was too much for her to handle. I'm not going to waste my time debating my opinion with you. Thanks for your input on my input. Super productive conversation as usual.
purplesparklies|1409324677|3741413 said:As a teacher and mother, I can tell you that a nine year old child will put their trust in the parent & instructor. She was undoubtedly nervous and unsure but a child that young is often nervous and unsure about new things. They learn to put their faith in the responsible adults who teach and encourage them. If they didn't, they would never try new things. This child was wronged by the adults who were supposed to be caring for her. Period. To blame the child in this instance is ludicrous. She has been traumatized and I feel horrible for her. The adults, however, get no sympathy from me.
momhappy|1409325759|3741428 said:^Well, apparently some of us here care, which is why the thread was started and why some of us have responded. Some of us care because this wasn't just about an accidental shooting, it was a shooting that occurred under extraordinary circumstances, which makes it discussion-worthy. I agree that certain activities carry certain risk, but it doesn't mean that I don't care when people die. What about driving a car? Drive a car and you or someone you love may get hurt or die too, but most of us are sympathetic when someone dies in a car accident...
wow that's rough.monarch64|1409321559|3741369 said:I have no sympathy for any of the parties involved, including the 9 year old. There is no law, existing or enacted in the future, that will save people from their own idiocy.
Maria D|1409331391|3741490 said:These were NOT extraordinary circumstances. Here are some quotes from the owner of this entertainment establishment in an interview where he is defending the minimum age requirement.
-------
"This was a very mature young lady, and something she wanted to do and her parents her treating her," he said of the 9-year-old. "This was something that was high on her bucket list to do, and her parents took her out to do what she was going to do."
Hayes asked Scarmado how he would respond to critics who say young children shouldn't be allowed to fire automatic weapons.
"We've probably had a 100,000 people shoot on our two ranges combined," he said. "And we've had, of that, probably 1,500 to 2,000 of them have been kids. The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons, we do birthday parties for children here, we do bachelor, bachelorette parties at both facilities. We're part of the Las Vegas entertainment industry. ... If there wasn't a large demand for it, we wouldn't do it."
He added that he has no plans to close his business, but is considering imposing a minimum height for children.
"We're reviewing the policy, the age," he said. "Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."
----
Out of 1500 -2000 kids having fun shooting guns, one little accident happened. yawn, yawn, yawn
Maria D|1409331391|3741490 said:momhappy|1409325759|3741428 said:^Well, apparently some of us here care, which is why the thread was started and why some of us have responded. Some of us care because this wasn't just about an accidental shooting, it was a shooting that occurred under extraordinary circumstances, which makes it discussion-worthy. I agree that certain activities carry certain risk, but it doesn't mean that I don't care when people die. What about driving a car? Drive a car and you or someone you love may get hurt or die too, but most of us are sympathetic when someone dies in a car accident...
These were NOT extraordinary circumstances. Here are some quotes from the owner of this entertainment establishment in an interview where he is defending the minimum age requirement.
-------
"This was a very mature young lady, and something she wanted to do and her parents her treating her," he said of the 9-year-old. "This was something that was high on her bucket list to do, and her parents took her out to do what she was going to do."
Hayes asked Scarmado how he would respond to critics who say young children shouldn't be allowed to fire automatic weapons.
"We've probably had a 100,000 people shoot on our two ranges combined," he said. "And we've had, of that, probably 1,500 to 2,000 of them have been kids. The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons, we do birthday parties for children here, we do bachelor, bachelorette parties at both facilities. We're part of the Las Vegas entertainment industry. ... If there wasn't a large demand for it, we wouldn't do it."
He added that he has no plans to close his business, but is considering imposing a minimum height for children.
"We're reviewing the policy, the age," he said. "Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."
----
Out of 1500 -2000 kids having fun shooting guns, one little accident happened. yawn, yawn, yawn
Gypsy|1409337433|3741552 said:Maria D|1409331391|3741490 said:These were NOT extraordinary circumstances. Here are some quotes from the owner of this entertainment establishment in an interview where he is defending the minimum age requirement.
-------
"This was a very mature young lady, and something she wanted to do and her parents her treating her," he said of the 9-year-old. "This was something that was high on her bucket list to do, and her parents took her out to do what she was going to do."
Hayes asked Scarmado how he would respond to critics who say young children shouldn't be allowed to fire automatic weapons.
"We've probably had a 100,000 people shoot on our two ranges combined," he said. "And we've had, of that, probably 1,500 to 2,000 of them have been kids. The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons, we do birthday parties for children here, we do bachelor, bachelorette parties at both facilities. We're part of the Las Vegas entertainment industry. ... If there wasn't a large demand for it, we wouldn't do it."
He added that he has no plans to close his business, but is considering imposing a minimum height for children.
"We're reviewing the policy, the age," he said. "Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."
----
Out of 1500 -2000 kids having fun shooting guns, one little accident happened. yawn, yawn, yawn
And this is it for me. Not the exception. This is NOT responsible gun ownership. I never called all gun owners yahoos Momhappy so don't put words in my mouth. I called people who would put in an Uzi in an 8 year olds hands on a REGULAR basis YAHOOS. And they are. I also called them irresponsible morons. They are that too.
Yes there are responsible gun owners. But the irresponsible ones aren't a one off. Or RARE. In fact they are very prevalent and persistent. For every responsible gun owner I have met, I have met at least 2 irresponsible gun owners.
What one person's definition of responsible is, is very different than another. This YAHOO gun range owner CLEARLY feels that he is a responsible person.
He is not. The fact that they have had one accident is PURE CHANCE. Uzi's should not be given to 8 year olds. Or really anyone under the age of 18. If you can't vote, if you can't be charged as an adult for your crimes, and you can't DRIVE... you shouldn't be able to shoot an Uzi IMO.
There are actually people - non-institutionlised people living amongst the general public - who believe that regularly giving children control of automatic weapons is anything but COMPLETELY F*CKING NUTS!?Gypsy|1409337433|3741552 said:Maria D|1409331391|3741490 said:Hayes asked Scarmado how he would respond to critics who say young children shouldn't be allowed to fire automatic weapons.
"We've probably had a 100,000 people shoot on our two ranges combined," he said. "And we've had, of that, probably 1,500 to 2,000 of them have been kids. The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons, we do birthday parties for children here,
And this is it for me. Not the exception. This is NOT responsible gun ownership.
I called people who would put in an Uzi in an 8 year olds hands on a REGULAR basis YAHOOS. And they are. I also called them irresponsible morons. They are that too.
Yes there are responsible gun owners. But the irresponsible ones aren't a one off. Or RARE. In fact they are very prevalent and persistent.
What one person's definition of responsible is, is very different than another. This YAHOO gun range owner CLEARLY feels that he is a responsible person.
He is not.
This. I don't feel the least bit worried or unsafe around the many gun owners I know personally, but the fact that yahoos like this range owner and his staff can be licensed to legally operate in this way is indicative of a desperate need for gun control reform, and if some aspects of that reformation infringe on sane, responsible owners' rights... well, that's the price of public safety and I really can't understand taking objection to it.momhappy|1409339345|3741575 said:We share the same opinion of the incident and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, but most gun owners that I know are not yahoos. If your experience with gun owners has been that for every 1 responsible owner, there are 2 irresponsible ones, then that is very different from mine. You're right, though, everyone's definition of "responsible" is different, so it's tough to measure.
momhappy|1409338595|3741565 said:If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...
Maria D|1409339906|3741585 said:momhappy|1409338595|3741565 said:If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...
Well then you should be afraid. If Bullets and Burgers has been in business for 30 years (which I doubt), that's a minimum of 50 kids shooting a year, or about one a week. Hardly extraordinary.
But then again, I don't know what your cut-off age is. Nine is apparently too young for you, maybe 11 is OK? The owner does say he does a lot of children's birthday parties. I only have one child and after about the age of 10 she and her friends stopped having "venue" birthday parties in favor of sleepovers.
momhappy|1409342722|3741621 said:Maria D|1409339906|3741585 said:momhappy|1409338595|3741565 said:If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...
Well then you should be afraid. If Bullets and Burgers has been in business for 30 years (which I doubt), that's a minimum of 50 kids shooting a year, or about one a week. Hardly extraordinary.
But then again, I don't know what your cut-off age is. Nine is apparently too young for you, maybe 11 is OK? The owner does say he does a lot of children's birthday parties. I only have one child and after about the age of 10 she and her friends stopped having "venue" birthday parties in favor of sleepovers.
I was referring to fully automatic weapons - in other words, I still don't think that it's the norm for kids under the age of 10, to be shooting fully automatic weapons. I don't have an issue with young people learning how to shoot certain types of weapons in controlled environments, but I don't condone kids shooting fully automatic weapons (and by kids, I mean under the age of 1. I don't really have a cut-off age is because to be honest, I've never given it much thought. My children are all currently elementary school-age and I would not consider any of them old enough to handle any sort of weapon. I know that my DH was taught how to shoot a handgun around age 10 and I currently know lots of teens who go hunting with their dads, etc.
Maria D|1409343904|3741645 said:momhappy|1409342722|3741621 said:Maria D|1409339906|3741585 said:momhappy|1409338595|3741565 said:If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...
Well then you should be afraid. If Bullets and Burgers has been in business for 30 years (which I doubt), that's a minimum of 50 kids shooting a year, or about one a week. Hardly extraordinary.
But then again, I don't know what your cut-off age is. Nine is apparently too young for you, maybe 11 is OK? The owner does say he does a lot of children's birthday parties. I only have one child and after about the age of 10 she and her friends stopped having "venue" birthday parties in favor of sleepovers.
I was referring to fully automatic weapons - in other words, I still don't think that it's the norm for kids under the age of 10, to be shooting fully automatic weapons. I don't have an issue with young people learning how to shoot certain types of weapons in controlled environments, but I don't condone kids shooting fully automatic weapons (and by kids, I mean under the age of 1. I don't really have a cut-off age is because to be honest, I've never given it much thought. My children are all currently elementary school-age and I would not consider any of them old enough to handle any sort of weapon. I know that my DH was taught how to shoot a handgun around age 10 and I currently know lots of teens who go hunting with their dads, etc.
Sorry momhappy, our conversation is going around in a ridiculous circle, don't you think? I said, to no one in particular, that I didn't feel sympathy for the instructor, girl or her parents. You responded specifically to me that some of you care because it wasn't just a regular gun accident, but one of extraordinary circumstances. I countered that it wasn't extraordinary, kids shoot all the time at this range according to the owner. First you nit-pick that we don't know if it's all the time because we have a total number, not a time-frame. Also, we don't know how many 9 year olds, just 8 - 18 year olds. When I do a little math to again show these weren't unusual circumstances at all, and mention those birthday parties must be for younger kids, you change the context to fully automatic weapons and widen the realm to everywhere, not just at this range.
Seriously? Look, THIS particular family entertainment venue in Vegas, which by the way is rated wildly high at places like trip advisor and yelp, routinely lets kids from 8-18 shoot fully automatic weapons. It's not unusual AT ALL. Their LOWEST PRICE PACKAGE includes 25 rounds with a machine gun. I know zilch about machine guns, so if they are not included in fully automatic weapons I guess you can nitpick again.
Feel all the sympathy you want - I'm not knocking you for it, your sympathy doesn't cost me anything. I merely said that I don't care about this accident anymore than when I read about all the drunk people that have drowned in Maine this summer. Whatever.
edited to add:
nbcnews.com isn't even calling it an accident - they are using the word "mis-hap."
monarch64|1409321559|3741369 said:I have no sympathy for any of the parties involved, including the 9 year old. There is no law, existing or enacted in the future, that will save people from their own idiocy.
momhappy|1409344590|3741656 said:Maria D|1409343904|3741645 said:momhappy|1409342722|3741621 said:Maria D|1409339906|3741585 said:momhappy|1409338595|3741565 said:If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...
Well then you should be afraid. If Bullets and Burgers has been in business for 30 years (which I doubt), that's a minimum of 50 kids shooting a year, or about one a week. Hardly extraordinary.
But then again, I don't know what your cut-off age is. Nine is apparently too young for you, maybe 11 is OK? The owner does say he does a lot of children's birthday parties. I only have one child and after about the age of 10 she and her friends stopped having "venue" birthday parties in favor of sleepovers.
I was referring to fully automatic weapons - in other words, I still don't think that it's the norm for kids under the age of 10, to be shooting fully automatic weapons. I don't have an issue with young people learning how to shoot certain types of weapons in controlled environments, but I don't condone kids shooting fully automatic weapons (and by kids, I mean under the age of 1. I don't really have a cut-off age is because to be honest, I've never given it much thought. My children are all currently elementary school-age and I would not consider any of them old enough to handle any sort of weapon. I know that my DH was taught how to shoot a handgun around age 10 and I currently know lots of teens who go hunting with their dads, etc.
Sorry momhappy, our conversation is going around in a ridiculous circle, don't you think? I said, to no one in particular, that I didn't feel sympathy for the instructor, girl or her parents. You responded specifically to me that some of you care because it wasn't just a regular gun accident, but one of extraordinary circumstances. I countered that it wasn't extraordinary, kids shoot all the time at this range according to the owner. First you nit-pick that we don't know if it's all the time because we have a total number, not a time-frame. Also, we don't know how many 9 year olds, just 8 - 18 year olds. When I do a little math to again show these weren't unusual circumstances at all, and mention those birthday parties must be for younger kids, you change the context to fully automatic weapons and widen the realm to everywhere, not just at this range.
Seriously? Look, THIS particular family entertainment venue in Vegas, which by the way is rated wildly high at places like trip advisor and yelp, routinely lets kids from 8-18 shoot fully automatic weapons. It's not unusual AT ALL. Their LOWEST PRICE PACKAGE includes 25 rounds with a machine gun. I know zilch about machine guns, so if they are not included in fully automatic weapons I guess you can nitpick again.
Feel all the sympathy you want - I'm not knocking you for it, your sympathy doesn't cost me anything. I merely said that I don't care about this accident anymore than when I read about all the drunk people that have drowned in Maine this summer. Whatever.
edited to add:
nbcnews.com isn't even calling it an accident - they are using the word "mis-hap."
Maria - I think you missed my point. I'm not here to change your opinions (or to encourage you to feel sympathetic when you don't). It's okay to agree to disagree I'm not nit-picking any more than you are and I haven't changed the context (I have always been referring to fully automatic weapons in my posts). You think that a 9 year-old shooting a fully automatic weapon is the norm and I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions and I didn't think that any of this was personal, so no harm done. I actually appreciate the dialogue, but if you don't, then I apologize for engaging you in the conversation.
ericad|1409353752|3741733 said:I have a 9 year old daughter. A few weeks ago she asked if she could test out some wings she made by jumping out the window. I said no. So then she asked if she could try from the upstairs stair bannister, because you know, it's not THAT high. No. No you may not. She was super into trying to figure out how to fly, but now she's into survivalism. Mom, can I borrow a lighter and a machete so that I can recreate Naked and Afraid out in the woods? No. The answer is no. Next week she'll be into knife throwing or rolla-bolla or trapeze - who the heck knows? No. The answer is NO!
Kids want to do stuff. My kid is smart and mature but sometimes wants to do stupid $hit and it's my job to protect her, often times from herself.
The owner of B&G put it on the kid - oh she's super mature and wanted to do it. Who gives a crap?! What the kid wanted is irrelevant! I mean Jesus, this is freaking INSANITY. And I do feel really sorry for the child, and think the parents AND range should be brought up on reckless endangerment charges. She is way too young and has been traumatized and forever damaged by her indulgent MORONIC parents and a greedy business owner for what? A photo opp to post on Facebook to show off how trendy you are?
Lunacy. She's a victim here. The adults who were tasked with keeping her safe failed miserably. And the range will continue putting uzis in the hands of children as they worship the almighty dollar. And sales will probably skyrocket to boot.
ericad said:I have a 9 year old daughter. A few weeks ago she asked if she could test out some wings she made by jumping out the window. I said no. So then she asked if she could try from the upstairs stair bannister, because you know, it's not THAT high. No. No you may not. She was super into trying to figure out how to fly, but now she's into survivalism. Mom, can I borrow a lighter and a machete so that I can recreate Naked and Afraid out in the woods? No. The answer is no. Next week she'll be into knife throwing or rolla-bolla or trapeze - who the heck knows? No. The answer is NO!
Kids want to do stuff. My kid is smart and mature but sometimes wants to do stupid $hit and it's my job to protect her, often times from herself.
The owner of B&G put it on the kid - oh she's super mature and wanted to do it. Who gives a crap?! What the kid wanted is irrelevant! I mean Jesus, this is freaking INSANITY. And I do feel really sorry for the child, and think the parents AND range should be brought up on reckless endangerment charges. She is way too young and has been traumatized and forever damaged by her indulgent MORONIC parents and a greedy business owner for what? A photo opp to post on Facebook to show off how trendy you are?
Lunacy. She's a victim here. The adults who were tasked with keeping her safe failed miserably. And the range will continue putting uzis in the hands of children as they worship the almighty dollar. And sales will probably skyrocket to boot.
ericad|1409353752|3741733 said:I have a 9 year old daughter. A few weeks ago she asked if she could test out some wings she made by jumping out the window. I said no. So then she asked if she could try from the upstairs stair bannister, because you know, it's not THAT high. No. No you may not. She was super into trying to figure out how to fly, but now she's into survivalism. Mom, can I borrow a lighter and a machete so that I can recreate Naked and Afraid out in the woods? No. The answer is no. Next week she'll be into knife throwing or rolla-bolla or trapeze - who the heck knows? No. The answer is NO!
Kids want to do stuff. My kid is smart and mature but sometimes wants to do stupid $hit and it's my job to protect her, often times from herself.
The owner of B&G put it on the kid - oh she's super mature and wanted to do it. Who gives a crap?! What the kid wanted is irrelevant! I mean Jesus, this is freaking INSANITY. And I do feel really sorry for the child, and think the parents AND range should be brought up on reckless endangerment charges. She is way too young and has been traumatized and forever damaged by her indulgent MORONIC parents and a greedy business owner for what? A photo opp to post on Facebook to show off how trendy you are?
Lunacy. She's a victim here. The adults who were tasked with keeping her safe failed miserably. And the range will continue putting uzis in the hands of children as they worship the almighty dollar. And sales will probably skyrocket to boot.
I would disagree with him with proper training I bet I could get both of you firing one comfortably and safely in a small amount of time and I haven't fired one in 25+ years.moneymeister|1409362372|3741791 said:An aside, I asked my S/o tonight at dinner what he thought of the incident. This man is a very strong 2a advocate with many firearms, etc.
He said the gun range and family were idiots. He said that most women he knows (including me and dd) probably don't have the upper body strength needed to comfortably fire an Uzi. A child had no business anywhere around that firearm.
Erica, well said! Nine is a magical time enjoy her fancy flights.
momhappy|1409325759|3741428 said:^Well, apparently some of us here care, which is why the thread was started and why some of us have responded. Some of us care because this wasn't just about an accidental shooting, it was a shooting that occurred under extraordinary circumstances, which makes it discussion-worthy. I agree that certain activities carry certain risk, but it doesn't mean that I don't care when people die. What about driving a car? Drive a car and you or someone you love may get hurt or die too, but most of us are sympathetic when someone dies in a car accident...