Can't vote. Can't drink. But here's an Uzi...

[missy]

I have a 9 year old daughter. A few weeks ago she asked if she could test out some wings she made by jumping out the window. I said no. So then she asked if she could try from the upstairs stair bannister, because you know, it's not THAT high. No. No you may not. She was super into trying to figure out how to fly, but now she's into survivalism. Mom, can I borrow a lighter and a machete so that I can recreate Naked and Afraid out in the woods? No. The answer is no. Next week she'll be into knife throwing or rolla-bolla or trapeze - who the heck knows? No. The answer is NO!

Kids want to do stuff. My kid is smart and mature but sometimes wants to do stupid $hit and it's my job to protect her, often times from herself.

The owner of B&G put it on the kid - oh she's super mature and wanted to do it. Who gives a crap?! What the kid wanted is irrelevant! I mean Jesus, this is freaking INSANITY. And I do feel really sorry for the child, and think the parents AND range should be brought up on reckless endangerment charges. She is way too young and has been traumatized and forever damaged by her indulgent MORONIC parents and a greedy business owner for what? A photo opp to post on Facebook to show off how trendy you are?

Lunacy. She's a victim here. The adults who were tasked with keeping her safe failed miserably. And the range will continue putting uzis in the hands of children as they worship the almighty dollar. And sales will probably skyrocket to boot.

Great post Erica. I completely agree. The child is the victim here and the adults 100% culpable. My heart goes out to the family of the man who died and to that little girl. The parents and the gun range owners are responsible and it is mind boggling to me that a little child is allowed to shoot an automatic weapon. There is absolutely no good reason for that here IMO and it is a travesty that they will be allowed to continue offering this "recreational" activity to children. I will even go so far as to say (and I am not anti gun if used responsibly) no civilian should be allowed to use automatic weapons. I agree with what Yssie wrote:

Civilians in the USA in 2014 DO NOT need automatic weapons. Civilians in the USA in 2014 DO NOT need weapons capable of discharging 500 rounds per minute. In any context. Not at home, not on a shooting range, never. And if not having weapons capable of discharging 500 rounds per minute "infringes on your rights", well, that's just too bloody bad. The vast majority of my responsibly owning friends/family agrees, vehemently.

+1 to infinity

 

[AGBF]

No matter how stupid/uninformed/unaware the participants in this tragedy were, the event has caused much suffering. It is hard for me to understand people who don't have compassion for human suffering. I commend you for standing your ground, momhappy. You have a good heart.

Well yes, she does. She is a sweetheart about children. But let's not get crazy here. Monnie has a good heart, too! If Monnie has "no sympathy" for someone it isn't harming anyone!! Our emotions do not harm people, folks, only our actions do. Let's not get carried away!

Hugs all around,
Deb/AGBF

 

[momhappy]

^Well, apparently some of us here care, which is why the thread was started and why some of us have responded. Some of us care because this wasn't just about an accidental shooting, it was a shooting that occurred under extraordinary circumstances, which makes it discussion-worthy. I agree that certain activities carry certain risk, but it doesn't mean that I don't care when people die. What about driving a car? Drive a car and you or someone you love may get hurt or die too, but most of us are sympathetic when someone dies in a car accident...

No matter how stupid/uninformed/unaware the participants in this tragedy were, the event has caused much suffering. It is hard for me to understand people who don't have compassion for human suffering. I commend you for standing your ground, momhappy. You have a good heart.

Thanks for this Jimmianne. I think that I sometimes offer thoughts/opinions that might not be the most popular, and I don't always speak (post) as eloquently as I'd like, so the result is not often well-received.
For what it's worth, I think that it's okay for someone to say that they don't sympathize (so I agree with AGBF too ) - I can sort of relate with the logic because of the sheer idiocy displayed by the parents and/or instructor. I feel bad though - such a senseless tragedy.

 

[momhappy]

If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...

Well then you should be afraid. If Bullets and Burgers has been in business for 30 years (which I doubt), that's a minimum of 50 kids shooting a year, or about one a week. Hardly extraordinary.

But then again, I don't know what your cut-off age is. Nine is apparently too young for you, maybe 11 is OK? The owner does say he does a lot of children's birthday parties. I only have one child and after about the age of 10 she and her friends stopped having "venue" birthday parties in favor of sleepovers.

I was referring to fully automatic weapons - in other words, I still don't think that it's the norm for kids under the age of 10, to be shooting fully automatic weapons. I don't have an issue with young people learning how to shoot certain types of weapons in controlled environments, but I don't condone kids shooting fully automatic weapons (and by kids, I mean under the age of 1. I don't really have a cut-off age is because to be honest, I've never given it much thought. My children are all currently elementary school-age and I would not consider any of them old enough to handle any sort of weapon. I know that my DH was taught how to shoot a handgun around age 10 and I currently know lots of teens who go hunting with their dads, etc.

Sorry momhappy, our conversation is going around in a ridiculous circle, don't you think? I said, to no one in particular, that I didn't feel sympathy for the instructor, girl or her parents. You responded specifically to me that some of you care because it wasn't just a regular gun accident, but one of extraordinary circumstances. I countered that it wasn't extraordinary, kids shoot all the time at this range according to the owner. First you nit-pick that we don't know if it's all the time because we have a total number, not a time-frame. Also, we don't know how many 9 year olds, just 8 - 18 year olds. When I do a little math to again show these weren't unusual circumstances at all, and mention those birthday parties must be for younger kids, you change the context to fully automatic weapons and widen the realm to everywhere, not just at this range.

Seriously? Look, THIS particular family entertainment venue in Vegas, which by the way is rated wildly high at places like trip advisor and yelp, routinely lets kids from 8-18 shoot fully automatic weapons. It's not unusual AT ALL. Their LOWEST PRICE PACKAGE includes 25 rounds with a machine gun. I know zilch about machine guns, so if they are not included in fully automatic weapons I guess you can nitpick again.

Feel all the sympathy you want - I'm not knocking you for it, your sympathy doesn't cost me anything. I merely said that I don't care about this accident anymore than when I read about all the drunk people that have drowned in Maine this summer. Whatever.

edited to add:
nbcnews.com isn't even calling it an accident - they are using the word "mis-hap."

Maria - I think you missed my point. I'm not here to change your opinions (or to encourage you to feel sympathetic when you don't). It's okay to agree to disagree I'm not nit-picking any more than you are and I haven't changed the context (I have always been referring to fully automatic weapons in my posts). You think that a 9 year-old shooting a fully automatic weapon is the norm and I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions and I didn't think that any of this was personal, so no harm done. I actually appreciate the dialogue, but if you don't, then I apologize for engaging you in the conversation.

No need to apologize, it's my choice to engage or not. FWIW, it's not what I think is the norm or not that is relevant here. At THIS VENUE, it is entirely normal for children between the ages of 8-18 to shoot a fully automatic weapon. This is not nit-picking, it is fact. The owner says so. You can choose to believe that this 9 year old shooting an Uzi at this venue was an extraordinary event if it works better for your paradigm, but the simple fact is that it wasn't an unusual occurrence at this venue.

Now I see where we went round and round I was referring to general terms and it sounds like you were referring to the gun range. Yes, I agree that a kid shooting a fully automatic weapon at this particular gun range is not unusual. My original point, however, was that it is unusual for a kid in the U.S. to shoot a fully automatic weapon. I don't believe that children under a certain age should be allowed to shoot fully automatic weapons - there is simply too much risk involved and I fail to see any benefit of teaching a child to use that particular weapon.

 

[monarch64]

Thank you, Deb. I appreciate your kindness.

For what it's worth, I said that I don't sympathize with any of the parties involved. I think the situation is sad, and the reality of what the child will face going forward is going to be tough. I'm not a heartless monster. I'm just a human being who doesn't like to see other humans getting killed or being made to suffer senselessly. I'm not BLAMING a 9 year old. I'm saying I do not feel sympathy. In order to feel sincere sympathy for a person (a PERSON, not a SITUATION) I'm of the mind that one needs to at least have a face or a name or some kind of connection to that person. I have no connections to any of them, not faces, not names, nor values in common. If those of you who are saying it's "harsh" or "rough" that I don't have sympathy can't understand that, and it makes you feel better to let me know how wrong you think I am, that's fine, I can certainly take it. If I didn't care, or think the story wasn't discussion-worthy, I would have felt ambivalent and not even posted. The fact that it angers me that these people did something that was just DUMB at least means I care enough that I hope others learn from their foolishness.

 

[ericad]

Based on the classic definition of sympathy, I definitely feel for the the child involved. I even feel sympathy for the man who was killed - we don't know if he agreed with the range's policy of allowing kids to shoot uzi's, or if he had been properly trained, etc. He may have done something dumb, but certainly didn't deserve to die and his family is now suffering as a result. I feel sorry for all of them with the exception of the owner, who doesn't seem to give a crap about anyone at all.

I don't think one has to personally connect with and know someone in order to feel compassion or sympathy towards them. I feel sympathy for people suffering from disease, tragedy, heartbreak, etc. all the time, whether I know them or not.

sym·pa·thy
1. feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
synonyms: compassion, caring, concern, solicitude, empathy; More
commiseration, pity, condolence, comfort, solace, support, encouragement;
consideration, kindness
"he shows sympathy for the poor"
antonyms: indifference

 

[monarch64]

sym·pa·thy
1. feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
synonyms: compassion, caring, concern, solicitude, empathy; More
commiseration, pity, condolence, comfort, solace, support, encouragement;
consideration, kindness
"he shows sympathy for the poor"
antonyms: indifference

Awesome. Thanks for helping me understand the English language! :wavey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathy

It's lovely that you have feelings of sympathy for these people. I do not, and I'm not sure why it is somehow imperative that I do, or why anyone cares.

I feel anger about the situation, and sadness. I have sent sympathy cards before on behalf of my husband to families I've never met, know nothing about, etc. I've signed the card "thinking of you." Am I a horrible person because I don't feel sympathy for people I don't know at all, who died? I'm sorry you're not able to understand my point and that you feel you have to educate me on what sympathy is. If that makes you feel better about yourself, that's great. I'm sure you deserve it.

 

[ericad]

sym·pa·thy
1. feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
synonyms: compassion, caring, concern, solicitude, empathy; More
commiseration, pity, condolence, comfort, solace, support, encouragement;
consideration, kindness
"he shows sympathy for the poor"
antonyms: indifference

Awesome. Thanks for helping me understand the English language! :wavey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathy

Sorry you took offense, monarch - just discussing sympathy in general. You're certainly entitled to feel or not feel whatever you wish. But your comment regarding needing a personal connection in order to feel sympathy made me curious, so I looked it up as a means of analyzing my own feelings about how tragic happenings in the world affect me personally, and to see if "sympathy" is the right word for how I feel. I find the topic really interesting. I do disagree with you, about one needing a personal connection because I don't feel I require that in order to be sympathetic, but you do and that's cool.

 

[redwood66]

I have held off weighing in as long as I could.

I place the blame for this incident entirely on the the instructor in this situation. Many here do not agree with the parents letting the daughter shoot an uzi at a gun range. But this range has rented to children many many times and this time was no different. People rent automatic weapons for the experience because 99% of Americans will never have the chance to shoot a full auto in their lifetime. The parents likely trusted this range to provide a safe environment for their daughter as it has thousands of times before to other patrons. The instructor should not have been standing on the left side first off as the gun will rise up and to the left when fired. He should have known this. He also should have been in control of the weapon since the girl was so small. Three round bursts would have been sufficient for her.

I feel sad for his family and especially the little girl who will have to live with this for the rest of her life. But I do not blame her parents for taking her there. My sons, when teenagers, fired a rented fully automatic MP5 at a range and it came with a fully qualified instructor who is in control of the weapon at all times until he or she is sure the patron can handle it.

 

[packrat]

My children's safety, first and foremost is on MY shoulders. And JD's shoulders. Nobody else's. First and foremost, we make all the decisions regarding our children. Just b/c something is legal or someone is there to instruct you doesn't mean it's right or it's not dangerous or that it's 100% safe in 100% of the situations and to tell yourself different is to invite trouble. I feel the owner of the place is an asshat. The instructor was doing his job and shit got out of his hands. Anyone who feels it's ok to provide an adult experience like that to children is an idiot. BB gun or pellet guns, THOSE are for kids. Not automatic weapons. And unless the kid is doing a Make A Wish type of deal, the kid can suck it up and deal w/the agony of not being able to shoot an automatic weapon until he or she is an adult.

Adults need to be adults and quit acting like children and quit being stupid.

 

[ericad]

sym·pa·thy
1. feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
synonyms: compassion, caring, concern, solicitude, empathy; More
commiseration, pity, condolence, comfort, solace, support, encouragement;
consideration, kindness
"he shows sympathy for the poor"
antonyms: indifference

Awesome. Thanks for helping me understand the English language! :wavey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathy

It's lovely that you have feelings of sympathy for these people. I do not, and I'm not sure why it is somehow imperative that I do, or why anyone cares.

I feel anger about the situation, and sadness. I have sent sympathy cards before on behalf of my husband to families I've never met, know nothing about, etc. I've signed the card "thinking of you." Am I a horrible person because I don't feel sympathy for people I don't know at all, who died? I'm sorry you're not able to understand my point and that you feel you have to educate me on what sympathy is. If that makes you feel better about yourself, that's great. I'm sure you deserve it.

Monarch, you're taking my post waaaaaay too personally and totally the wrong way. You say you feel sad that people got hurt, angry about the situation, you feel bad that it happened. Well that IS sympathy. That's why I posted the definition - what you describe is what most consider sympathy or compassion. But then you vehemently state that you feel no sympathy for them. Semantics, maybe? That's why Iooked it up.

I may have politely disagreed with you about the definition of sympathy, but the hostile, defensive and sarcastic replies were hardly warranted. I never once criticized you or your feelings, lack of feelings, whatever.

 

[monarch64]

sym·pa·thy
1. feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
synonyms: compassion, caring, concern, solicitude, empathy; More
commiseration, pity, condolence, comfort, solace, support, encouragement;
consideration, kindness
"he shows sympathy for the poor"
antonyms: indifference

Awesome. Thanks for helping me understand the English language! :wavey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathy

It's lovely that you have feelings of sympathy for these people. I do not, and I'm not sure why it is somehow imperative that I do, or why anyone cares.

I feel anger about the situation, and sadness. I have sent sympathy cards before on behalf of my husband to families I've never met, know nothing about, etc. I've signed the card "thinking of you." Am I a horrible person because I don't feel sympathy for people I don't know at all, who died? I'm sorry you're not able to understand my point and that you feel you have to educate me on what sympathy is. If that makes you feel better about yourself, that's great. I'm sure you deserve it.

Monarch, you're taking my post waaaaaay too personally and totally the wrong way. You say you feel sad that people got hurt, angry about the situation, you feel bad that it happened. Well that IS sympathy. That's why I posted the definition - what you describe is what most consider sympathy or compassion. But then you vehemently state that you feel no sympathy for them. Semantics, maybe? That's why Iooked it up.

I may have politely disagreed with you about the definition of sympathy, but the hostile, defensive and sarcastic replies were hardly warranted. I never once criticized you or your feelings, lack of feelings, whatever.

Hey, you're right. I'm sorry for being rude. I posted and quoted you before you edited to include your thoughts on the definition. All I saw was your initial post that only included the definition, and that came across to me as snarky and passive-aggressive.

I definitely overreacted. My mistake, and I hope you'll accept my sincere apology. Not sure I want to be involved in a discussion of the definition of sympathy at this point but I respect that you were trying to continue the dialogue. I think I'll step out now and think about what I can learn from this thread. No hard feelings here, and hopefully none on your part.

 

[redwood66]

My children's safety, first and foremost is on MY shoulders. And JD's shoulders. Nobody else's. First and foremost, we make all the decisions regarding our children. Just b/c something is legal or someone is there to instruct you doesn't mean it's right or it's not dangerous or that it's 100% safe in 100% of the situations and to tell yourself different is to invite trouble. I feel the owner of the place is an asshat. The instructor was doing his job and shit got out of his hands. Anyone who feels it's ok to provide an adult experience like that to children is an idiot. BB gun or pellet guns, THOSE are for kids. Not automatic weapons. And unless the kid is doing a Make A Wish type of deal, the kid can suck it up and deal w/the agony of not being able to shoot an automatic weapon until he or she is an adult.

Adults need to be adults and quit acting like children and quit being stupid.

On the bolded we will agree to disagree. By the video and the facts he was absolutely not doing his job correctly, whether that be by lack of training or complacency. Everyone's ideas of safe is different. Guns are dangerous if not handled safely and correctly. You and JD know this. Was I acting like a child or being stupid to allow my children to do the same thing at 13? Maybe don't answer that if you think so and if you do I don't care anyway. Bad shit happens even to good people who try their best to protect themselves and their families.

Glad we can all express our own views here.

 

[ericad]

sym·pa·thy
1. feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
synonyms: compassion, caring, concern, solicitude, empathy; More
commiseration, pity, condolence, comfort, solace, support, encouragement;
consideration, kindness
"he shows sympathy for the poor"
antonyms: indifference

Awesome. Thanks for helping me understand the English language! :wavey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathy

It's lovely that you have feelings of sympathy for these people. I do not, and I'm not sure why it is somehow imperative that I do, or why anyone cares.

I feel anger about the situation, and sadness. I have sent sympathy cards before on behalf of my husband to families I've never met, know nothing about, etc. I've signed the card "thinking of you." Am I a horrible person because I don't feel sympathy for people I don't know at all, who died? I'm sorry you're not able to understand my point and that you feel you have to educate me on what sympathy is. If that makes you feel better about yourself, that's great. I'm sure you deserve it.

Monarch, you're taking my post waaaaaay too personally and totally the wrong way. You say you feel sad that people got hurt, angry about the situation, you feel bad that it happened. Well that IS sympathy. That's why I posted the definition - what you describe is what most consider sympathy or compassion. But then you vehemently state that you feel no sympathy for them. Semantics, maybe? That's why Iooked it up.

I may have politely disagreed with you about the definition of sympathy, but the hostile, defensive and sarcastic replies were hardly warranted. I never once criticized you or your feelings, lack of feelings, whatever.

Hey, you're right. I'm sorry for being rude. I posted and quoted you before you edited to include your thoughts on the definition. All I saw was your initial post that only included the definition, and that came across to me as snarky and passive-aggressive.

I definitely overreacted. My mistake, and I hope you'll accept my sincere apology. Not sure I want to be involved in a discussion of the definition of sympathy at this point but I respect that you were trying to continue the dialogue. I think I'll step out now and think about what I can learn from this thread. No hard feelings here, and hopefully none on your part.

None here either! Sorry that I came across differently than I intended. We're all good!!!

 

[GliderPoss]

Karl_K wrote:

"The instructor is 100% to blame.
He was out of position and gave someone a gun they were not ready to handle and paid for it with his life.
If he had been in the proper position it would not have happened.
He is the person who could have 100% prevented this from happening.
I feel really bad for the girl, her parents, and his family."


I agree with this statement, although I think the parents are idiots too.

 

[packrat]

13 is still different/older than 9. As I said before, London is 10 and still thinks if she tries hard enough she'll find the right spell to turn her into a mermaid. That's not really a mind set of someone mentally prepared to fire an automatic weapon. Same as when you pull a gun in "real life" you have to accept in your head what you're doing-if you're pulling your gun you better be prepared for what happens after, and what *could* potentially happen, even under the best and most safest conditions possible, shit still happens. I believe that a child should be able to under stand the consequences of what they're doing, if as a parent you are allowing them to do something that is potentially dangerous. There is *always* the potential for something bad to happen, no matter how controlled a situation is. Weigh the good and the bad, these parents weighed it in their own minds and this is what happened. And I fully believe that we as parents *have* to be able and willing to tell our sweet darling bucket list having fantastically mature in the mind cherubs..No. N-O. Nope, sorry, nah gah duh as Dana Carvey said back in the day. Ain't happenin. Over my dead body. Sorry 'bout your luck. And if 9 (and think about it--potty trained for what, 6-7 years?)...then why not 8? Or 7? Well golly, my baby cakes is starting preschool next week and yanno her bucket list is cage diving with great white sharks, and there will be an instructor, so that means it will be safe b/c that's what an instructor does. Says so right in the dictionary. "Instructor: Person who will make everything ok. Always have an instructor assist you with everything as nothing bad will happen." He is magically all powerful and able to foresee every possible problem before it happens and deflect any and all bad situations that may arise...ooooorrrr it might happen that the instructor is in fact, human and does not actually have the powers of the gods.

 

[redwood66]

Yep. I am the mother of all NOs. My kids were "no you can't do that" to death. Which in hindsight I should have let them fail a bit in the things that would not be a detriment to their health. Thank God the military has allowed them to learn it in a somewhat real life situation but still controlled. Best decision they have made so far.

 

[yssie]

13 is still different/older than 9. As I said before, London is 10 and still thinks if she tries hard enough she'll find the right spell to turn her into a mermaid. That's not really a mind set of someone mentally prepared to fire an automatic weapon. Same as when you pull a gun in "real life" you have to accept in your head what you're doing-if you're pulling your gun you better be prepared for what happens after, and what *could* potentially happen, even under the best and most safest conditions possible, shit still happens. I believe that a child should be able to under stand the consequences of what they're doing, if as a parent you are allowing them to do something that is potentially dangerous. There is *always* the potential for something bad to happen, no matter how controlled a situation is. Weigh the good and the bad, these parents weighed it in their own minds and this is what happened. And I fully believe that we as parents *have* to be able and willing to tell our sweet darling bucket list having fantastically mature in the mind cherubs..No. N-O. Nope, sorry, nah gah duh as Dana Carvey said back in the day. Ain't happenin. Over my dead body. Sorry 'bout your luck. And if 9 (and think about it--potty trained for what, 6-7 years?)...then why not 8? Or 7? Well golly, my baby cakes is starting preschool next week and yanno her bucket list is cage diving with great white sharks, and there will be an instructor, so that means it will be safe b/c that's what an instructor does. Says so right in the dictionary. "Instructor: Person who will make everything ok. Always have an instructor assist you with everything as nothing bad will happen." He is magically all powerful and able to foresee every possible problem before it happens and deflect any and all bad situations that may arise...ooooorrrr it might happen that the instructor is in fact, human and does not actually have the powers of the gods.

Oh, but really now, you're just determined to ignore the fact that the instructors are trained... what could possibly go wrong with having a kid play with a toy that actually, y'know, kills things? It's obvious the training was incomplete. Poorly completed. Y'know.

I'd make the same argument for civilian concealed carry but... well that would be outrageous. I mean, they're trained too, and people who are trained don't ever have off days or exhibit questionable judgment...

 

[packrat]

yeah, my kids hear a lot of No's too...and they don't think I'm funny when I do a dramatic fling of myself around the room, back of hand to the forehead and proclaim loudly about what a horrible mother I have not letting me do everything I want.

Anyone who wants to conceal carry should be required to take a course, loading, unloading, cleaning, checking-the whole look touch feel thing, aiming, firing, everything, full stop and you should be required to show proficiency. It's not required and that's stupid. People can't meet in the middle b/c the ends have to push their own agendas over everyone else. So, it's up to us to be responsible. However...we've made it, in all our arrogance and superiority and stubbornness, that nobody *has* to be responsible. Ever.

 

[yssie]

Anyone who wants to conceal carry should be required to take a course, loading, unloading, cleaning, checking-the whole look touch feel thing, aiming, firing, everything, full stop and you should be required to show proficiency. It's not required and that's stupid. People can't meet in the middle b/c the ends have to push their own agendas over everyone else. So, it's up to us to be responsible. However...we've made it, in all our arrogance and superiority and stubbornness, that nobody *has* to be responsible. Ever.

Yup. In a nutshell.

 

[Calliecake]

13 is still different/older than 9. As I said before, London is 10 and still thinks if she tries hard enough she'll find the right spell to turn her into a mermaid. That's not really a mind set of someone mentally prepared to fire an automatic weapon. Same as when you pull a gun in "real life" you have to accept in your head what you're doing-if you're pulling your gun you better be prepared for what happens after, and what *could* potentially happen, even under the best and most safest conditions possible, shit still happens. I believe that a child should be able to under stand the consequences of what they're doing, if as a parent you are allowing them to do something that is potentially dangerous. There is *always* the potential for something bad to happen, no matter how controlled a situation is. Weigh the good and the bad, these parents weighed it in their own minds and this is what happened. And I fully believe that we as parents *have* to be able and willing to tell our sweet darling bucket list having fantastically mature in the mind cherubs..No. N-O. Nope, sorry, nah gah duh as Dana Carvey said back in the day. Ain't happenin. Over my dead body. Sorry 'bout your luck. And if 9 (and think about it--potty trained for what, 6-7 years?)...then why not 8? Or 7? Well golly, my baby cakes is starting preschool next week and yanno her bucket list is cage diving with great white sharks, and there will be an instructor, so that means it will be safe b/c that's what an instructor does. Says so right in the dictionary. "Instructor: Person who will make everything ok. Always have an instructor assist you with everything as nothing bad will happen." He is magically all powerful and able to foresee every possible problem before it happens and deflect any and all bad situations that may arise...ooooorrrr it might happen that the instructor is in fact, human and does not actually have the powers of the gods.

Oh, but really now, you're just determined to ignore the fact that the instructors are trained... what could possibly go wrong with having a kid play with a toy that actually, y'know, kills things? It's obvious the training was incomplete. Poorly completed. Y'know.

I'd make the same argument for civilian concealed carry but... well that would be outrageous. I mean, they're trained too, and people who are trained don't ever have off days or exhibit questionable judgment...

+10000. Great posts Packrat and Yssie. Conceal and carry just became legal in the state I live in. It scares the heck out of me.

 

[packrat]

And that's sad for everybody across the board. B/c shit like this happens. I get that you can't stop everything from happening, but shit like this, yes, that *should* have been preventable, and ultimately did *not* have to happen. But you've got parents that think it's ok, a guy willing to provide it, and laws that allow it. Not so much a good combination.

Sometimes I feel like our planet is the Jersey Shore (or insert any other train wreck reality show) for aliens. Maybe we're being tweeted about out there in the galaxy. #humansbedumb #donotcontactthisplanet

ETA oops sorry, forgot to quote you Yssie.

 

[redwood66]

yeah, my kids hear a lot of No's too...and they don't think I'm funny when I do a dramatic fling of myself around the room, back of hand to the forehead and proclaim loudly about what a horrible mother I have not letting me do everything I want.

Anyone who wants to conceal carry should be required to take a course, loading, unloading, cleaning, checking-the whole look touch feel thing, aiming, firing, everything, full stop and you should be required to show proficiency. It's not required and that's stupid. People can't meet in the middle b/c the ends have to push their own agendas over everyone else. So, it's up to us to be responsible. However...we've made it, in all our arrogance and superiority and stubbornness, that nobody *has* to be responsible. Ever.

Funny about the acting. My kids hated that too.

I totally agree with you on the course but too many bureaucrats listen to idiots.

I train and practice all the time. Taking defensive handgun courses is a blast and so helpful. Learning how to change magazines with one hand was an eye opener that's for sure. Moving and shooting is definitely something one has to experience first hand. I trust my instructor and this is key but not all instructors should be instructors. Which is obvious in this story.

 

[packrat]

Callie, luckily, most people who don't know their head from a hole in the ground won't be rushing out to get their conceal carry permit. There will be some ass hats, that's pretty much a given, but the vast majority will be people who understand responsibility and what can happen w/a weapon. I have my conceal carry permit-complete w/cheesy grin-but don't carry. I'm not trained and am not comfortable w/it. And I feel like by golly I oughta be able to go out and do the same qualifying that JD has to for the department before I carry. I want to be comfortable, like it's a part of me. Until then, I just conceal carry my permit.

 

[packrat]

yeah, my kids hear a lot of No's too...and they don't think I'm funny when I do a dramatic fling of myself around the room, back of hand to the forehead and proclaim loudly about what a horrible mother I have not letting me do everything I want.

Anyone who wants to conceal carry should be required to take a course, loading, unloading, cleaning, checking-the whole look touch feel thing, aiming, firing, everything, full stop and you should be required to show proficiency. It's not required and that's stupid. People can't meet in the middle b/c the ends have to push their own agendas over everyone else. So, it's up to us to be responsible. However...we've made it, in all our arrogance and superiority and stubbornness, that nobody *has* to be responsible. Ever.

Funny about the acting. My kids hated that too.

I totally agree with you on the course but too many bureaucrats listen to idiots.

I train and practice all the time. Taking defensive handgun courses is a blast and so helpful. Learning how to change magazines with one hand was an eye opener that's for sure. Moving and shooting is definitely something one has to experience first hand. I trust my instructor and this is key but not all instructors should be instructors. Which is obvious in this story.

See, now this is how it should be. I'm still working on getting my hands and stance right, and not asking JD "are you SURE there's nothing in here?"

 

[Rhea]

This is such a sad story. And so glossed over in the UK media as inter-American preventable gun violence that I had to point it out DH who reads and watches the new several times a day and missed it. It's sad and I blame the culture rather than any one individual. But sadly it's nothing new.

 

[AGBF]

Karl_K wrote:

"The instructor is 100% to blame.
He was out of position and gave someone a gun they were not ready to handle and paid for it with his life.
If he had been in the proper position it would not have happened.
He is the person who could have 100% prevented this from happening.
I feel really bad for the girl, her parents, and his family."


I agree with this statement, although I think the parents are idiots too.

OK...according to HotPozzum, Karl_K is right and the instructor is 100% to blame. However the the parents of the girl were idiots, too. Let me take one more moment of your time and remind you of an earlier exchange in this thread.


Post by AGBF » 29 Aug 2014 17:05

Written by monarch64 » 29 Aug 2014 10:12:

"I have no sympathy for any of the parties involved, including the 9 year old. There is no law, existing or enacted in the future, that will save people from their own idiocy."



I disagree. There are many laws that save people from their own idiocy. And I also do not know that the 9 year-old (for whom I do have sympathy) is an idiot yet. Further exposure to her parents is extremely likely to turn her into one if she is not one yet, however.

Deb


PS-An editorial in, "The New York Times" today states,"In a similar tragedy six years ago, an 8-year-old boy lost control of an Uzi when he aimed at pumpkins but killed himself at a Massachusetts gun range. His home state of Connecticut reacted by enacting a state restriction that no one under 16 years of age can have access to machine guns. But don’t count on swift action in Arizona, where the gun culture is deeply entrenched. (One Arizona gun club invites families to pose with Santa Claus while brandishing their firearms.)"



The posting from earlier in the thread shows that when, six years ago, an 8-year-old boy lost control of an Uzi on a gun range and killed himself that the state of Connecticut from which he hailed, passed a law to protect children from the cupidity of people who wanted to rent Uzis to 8-year-olds and their mentally deficient parents. Sometimes the state does have to step in. Just as it did to prevent people from using children for child labor when it was in the interest of society to have them educated. It is in the interest of society to see them grow up healthy and without having either killed themselves or mowed down others at a firing range. I am proud that my state recognized that and legislated toward that end when people seemed unable to reach it without state intervention.

Deb/AGBF