Canadian diamonds

[WinkHPD]

RE: No-one pays a premium for canadian rough, and if they do its exactly the same as one would for a DTC box, or any of the Russian allocations.

Premiums on rough are based on the demand only and not the origin!!! now correct me if i am wrong!!!
========================
Perhaps Paul can chime in here since he cuts so much Canadian rough. I do not know if he pays a premium for the rough, but he does pay a premium if he wishes to use the Canada Mark program. It is fairly stiff I believe, but I will let him answer that.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/28/2006 3:18:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

Good so we solved the problem, there are no blood diamonds....

The qualifier of ‘legal’ is important. Unfortunately, I think you’re incorrect that it’s solved the problem. Pity.

RE: Branding.
Branding is key and it’s what the GNWT offers. They are adding value to make their diamonds worth more than superficially similar stones that don’t come with their stamp of approval. The fact that it it’s a value characteristic added by GNWT and not inherently part of the rough is exactly the point. The added value isn’t part of the stone. It''s not a gemological property. Listen to what the customers are saying! They want credible provenance, they’re willing to pay extra to get it and they don’t want to patronize suppliers who won’t provide it. Businesses that ignore their customers wishes do so at their own peril but perhaps the interest in global responsibility is just a passing fad. Personally I hope not. The only ones who can provide what is wanted are the manufacturers and the payoff is in premium prices both for themselves and their resellers.

In this you are convincing me. Losing market to the Canadians by poor marketing on the part of the Africans and those who sell their products may actually be doing some good. Forcing the various governments & companies to compete on the basis of who can provide the best paper trail may be helpful indeed. Perception becomes reality. If the people selling diamonds can’t convince their clients that the stones are conflict free then should lose the business to others who can.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/28/2006 5:26:56 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 5/28/2006 3:18:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

Good so we solved the problem, there are no blood diamonds....

The qualifier of ‘legal’ is important. Unfortunately, I think you’re incorrect that it’s solved the problem. Pity.
no kidding?

RE: Branding.
Branding is key and it’s what the GNWT offers. They are adding value to make their diamonds worth more than superficially similar stones that don’t come with their stamp of approval. The fact that it it’s a value characteristic added by GNWT and not inherently part of the rough is exactly the point. The added value isn’t part of the stone. It''s not a gemological property. Listen to what the customers are saying! They want credible provenance, they’re willing to pay extra to get it and they don’t want to patronize suppliers who won’t provide it. Businesses that ignore their customers wishes do so at their own peril but perhaps the interest in global responsibility is just a passing fad. Personally I hope not. The only ones who can provide what is wanted are the manufacturers and the payoff is in premium prices both for themselves and their resellers.

In this you are convincing me. Losing market to the Canadians by poor marketing on the part of the Africans and those who sell their products may actually be doing some good. Forcing the various governments & companies to compete on the basis of who can provide the best paper trail may be helpful indeed. Perception becomes reality. If the people selling diamonds can’t convince their clients that the stones are conflict free then should lose the business to others who can.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

since you are in this business i hope you will agree with me on the following:
There are plenty of DTC sightholders who flew to London each month to aquire their boxes during the past couple of years..., brought the goods back..., sold the at a premium of around 8%-25% (due to demand)...., bought rough material on the open market..., manufactured those open market goods...., and marketed these polished diamonds as DTC mark!!!

Do you honestly believe the manufacturers that get the Canadian rough dont do the same and still get the "stamp of approval"??

Its being done everywhere..., no-one has control on the polished production once it comes out of the manufacturing centers...

 

[denverappraiser]

Yes, I agree. Surely you also agree that this is not the end of the story. The stones in those boxes come with KP certification. This means that they are certified by KP, and the respective customs authorities to contain NO conflict stones. The siteholder returns home with the KP certification intact and their customers can be given the same assurances. This CAN be carried through to the consumer if they and their resellers choose to do it.

I disagree with the claim that it is impossible for the manufacturers to track each and every stone through their systems or that they can’t know exactly which box or parcel it came from, when they bought it, and from whom. On the contrary, I think an increasing number of manufacturers already do this for other reasons.

You missed my point about branding entirely. The certification by GNWT is valuable in and of itself. It’s not the stones that command the premium. A certification by anybody could, theoretically, be every bit as useful. It’s a matter of convincing the consumers of the credibility and usefulness of the source. Would a certified Australian stone be as good? It wouldn’t be to Galeteia, but it might be better for some of Garry’s clients. How about a certified Infinity where Infinity promises that their sources are clean? What if Elmyr or Imagem certifies it as a 3rd party? What about a GCAL brand certification of a GIA brand graded, BN signature brand stone from Blue Nile (which you can bet will command a premium over similar stones without all that paper)?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/28/2006 6:40:32 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Yes, I agree. Surely you also agree that this is not the end of the story. The stones in those boxes come with KP certification. This means that they are certified by KP, and the respective customs authorities to contain NO conflict stones. The siteholder returns home with the KP certification intact and their customers can be given the same assurances. This CAN be carried through to the consumer if they and their resellers choose to do it.

I disagree with the claim that it is impossible for the manufacturers to track each and every stone through their systems or that they can’t know exactly which box or parcel it came from, when they bought it, and from whom. On the contrary, I think an increasing number of manufacturers already do this for other reasons.

You missed my point about branding entirely. The certification by GNWT is valuable in and of itself. It’s not the stones that command the premium. A certification by anybody could, theoretically, be every bit as useful. It’s a matter of convincing the consumers of the credibility and usefulness of the source. Would a certified Australian stone be as good? It wouldn’t be to Galeteia, but it might be better for some of Garry’s clients. How about a certified Infinity where Infinity promises that their sources are clean? What if Elmyr or Imagem certifies it as a 3rd party? What about a GCAL brand certification of a GIA brand graded, BN signature brand stone from Blue Nile?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Neil, i got the point..., you seem a bit off, you are looking at this KP as somekind of guarantee....

I am looking at KP as if i travel in the US, i get to a US airport and security tears me to shred, making sure i am not bringing a lighter or a letterman on the plane.

That was the system to bring Americans to fly again after 9-11..., purely business!!!

On the other hand if i chose to walk into Penn station in NY and get on that train that will take me to the same destination i was planning my flight (for example), there is no security whatsoever..., i can get on the train with my lighter and my letterman...., RIGHT????

Now, do you get what i am talking about....

 

[diagem]

But please dont get me wrong...

KP is a good system, it is inly still in its beginning...

Both the Patriot act plus the KP, are bringing this industry to new heights as far as "officiality"
A word that was stranger to this industry untill a few years back...

These two combined are putting strain so that the conflict issue is slowly evaporating...

But you well know that there will allways be a buyer for diamonds that come from un-official sources...

 

[denverappraiser]

KP certification, when presented as part of a sale, is a guarantee, as is the GNWT certification. Airport and train security are not. Knowingly selling an altered or fictitious KP certification is illegal and can subject the offending dealer to both civil and criminal penalties depending on the details of the sale.

The fact that consumers are willing to pay a premium for the GNWT certification because it’s perceived as more reliable is evidence that customers find value in these things. I certainly agree that the fact that they are generally perceived as the only credible document does not speak well of the other sources.

I also agree that KP is the beginning, not the end.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[mia15]

Hi,

I just wanted to say how much I''ve enjoyed reading this thread, and the amazing information from people who have dealt far more with this issue than the average consumer can undertake to learn about.

As a consumer, I am considering Canadian diamonds and would like to know if the other posters who are consumers are thinking along these lines: Canadian diamonds = fairly comfortable reassurance of legitimate provenance.

Aside from benefiting Canadian workers, my goal is to demonstrate how important provenance is to me by buying from the most reputable source. And as just a consumer, it is amazingly difficult to do the math on the economics of diamond purchasing and sound business ethics, as we buy clothes, cars, and a little of everything on the market.

I suppose my hope is that by joining the group of consumers who make these purchases will affect the enforcement of the KP, etc., by making provenance a bigger issue. In the same way, I try to buy other goods from socially responsible companies, in the hope this will send a message to other companies about consumer expectations.

Is this naive? And if so, could you weigh in specifically?

 

[portoar]

Date: 5/28/2006 2:35:40 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/28/2006 9:49:16 AM
Author: portoar
Neil wrote: How about this as an alternative: Develop a system for identifying diamonds that originate from socially responsible sources and use consumer pressure on merchants and governments to make it difficult or impossible to traffic in stones from sources that don’t comply.

But Neil, this is just what julieinthecity and others are trying to do!!! Canadian diamonds (correct me if I''m wrong) are the only diamonds originating from a ''socially responsible source'' with country of origin marked on the girdle . . . if other diamonds from ''socially responsible sources'' were thus identified by country of origin, this issue would go away! This is the whole reason some people want to buy the Canadian diamonds!

Instead of ''4 Cs'' we consumers want 5 -- cut, color, clarity, carat weight, and country of origin . . .

No portoar, Canadian diamonds are NOT the only diamonds originating from responsible sources!!!!!
I can mark whatever you want on a diamond...., mark it off, and re-mark it again... (sorry, but no cigar...)

No, I think you are deliberately misquoting. I said I thought that Canadian diamonds are the only diamonds coming from a socially responsible source THAT ARE SO MARKED. Of course I realize there are other socially responsible sources.

Please be more careful how you read and quote -- you are twisting words now, which doesn''t do a thing to promote your position.

 

[portoar]

Date: 5/29/2006 11:41:12 PM
Author: emeraldlover
Hi,

I just wanted to say how much I''ve enjoyed reading this thread, and the amazing information from people who have dealt far more with this issue than the average consumer can undertake to learn about.

As a consumer, I am considering Canadian diamonds and would like to know if the other posters who are consumers are thinking along these lines: Canadian diamonds = fairly comfortable reassurance of legitimate provenance.

Aside from benefiting Canadian workers, my goal is to demonstrate how important provenance is to me by buying from the most reputable source. And as just a consumer, it is amazingly difficult to do the math on the economics of diamond purchasing and sound business ethics, as we buy clothes, cars, and a little of everything on the market.

I suppose my hope is that by joining the group of consumers who make these purchases will affect the enforcement of the KP, etc., by making provenance a bigger issue. In the same way, I try to buy other goods from socially responsible companies, in the hope this will send a message to other companies about consumer expectations.

Is this naive? And if so, could you weigh in specifically?

Emeraldlover -- no, I recently bought diamond studs, and though I looked at diamonds with Canadian provenance, I bought mine from Whiteflash -- no provenance on country of origin.

I actually do feel reasonably comfortable that reputable vendors are not out there hawking what we are calling "blood diamonds."
The thing that''s really bothering me is the diamond vendors have not bothered to educate us about this aspect of our diamond purchase, and then ridicule our concerns every time someone says "I''m thinking of buying a Canadian diamond because I''m worried about getting a blood diamond."

Of all the people who are "in the business," Neil is the only one who understands customer concerns and recognizes that the diamond industry should pay attention -- he writes:

"The added value isn’t part of the stone. It''s not a gemological property. Listen to what the customers are saying! They want credible provenance, they’re willing to pay extra to get it and they don’t want to patronize suppliers who won’t provide it. Businesses that ignore their customers wishes do so at their own peril . . . "

While this thread (well, just the parts that contain Neils thoughtful, intelligent, and educational posts) has given me a better understanding that my chances of buying a blood diamond are quite slim, it''s also solidified my opinion that as a consumer, I want to speak with my wallet and take my business to a vendor who will certify provenance.

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/30/2006 1:50:06 AM
Author: portoar

Date: 5/28/2006 2:35:40 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/28/2006 9:49:16 AM
Author: portoar
Neil wrote: How about this as an alternative: Develop a system for identifying diamonds that originate from socially responsible sources and use consumer pressure on merchants and governments to make it difficult or impossible to traffic in stones from sources that don’t comply.

But Neil, this is just what julieinthecity and others are trying to do!!! Canadian diamonds (correct me if I''m wrong) are the only diamonds originating from a ''socially responsible source'' with country of origin marked on the girdle . . . if other diamonds from ''socially responsible sources'' were thus identified by country of origin, this issue would go away! This is the whole reason some people want to buy the Canadian diamonds!

Instead of ''4 Cs'' we consumers want 5 -- cut, color, clarity, carat weight, and country of origin . . .

No portoar, Canadian diamonds are NOT the only diamonds originating from responsible sources!!!!!
I can mark whatever you want on a diamond...., mark it off, and re-mark it again... (sorry, but no cigar...)

You are the one who asked to be corrected!!!

No, I think you are deliberately misquoting. I said I thought that Canadian diamonds are the only diamonds coming from a socially responsible source THAT ARE SO MARKED. Of course I realize there are other socially responsible sources.

Please be more careful how you read and quote -- you are twisting words now, which doesn''t do a thing to promote your position.

What are you talking about!!! where does it say that you thought...???
Maybe thats what you thought, but yu asked to be corrected..., so i did.

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/30/2006 2:21:31 AM
Author: portoar

Date: 5/29/2006 11:41:12 PM
Author: emeraldlover
Hi,

I just wanted to say how much I''ve enjoyed reading this thread, and the amazing information from people who have dealt far more with this issue than the average consumer can undertake to learn about.

As a consumer, I am considering Canadian diamonds and would like to know if the other posters who are consumers are thinking along these lines: Canadian diamonds = fairly comfortable reassurance of legitimate provenance.

Aside from benefiting Canadian workers, my goal is to demonstrate how important provenance is to me by buying from the most reputable source. And as just a consumer, it is amazingly difficult to do the math on the economics of diamond purchasing and sound business ethics, as we buy clothes, cars, and a little of everything on the market.

I suppose my hope is that by joining the group of consumers who make these purchases will affect the enforcement of the KP, etc., by making provenance a bigger issue. In the same way, I try to buy other goods from socially responsible companies, in the hope this will send a message to other companies about consumer expectations.

Is this naive? And if so, could you weigh in specifically?

Emeraldlover -- no, I recently bought diamond studs, and though I looked at diamonds with Canadian provenance, I bought mine from Whiteflash -- no provenance on country of origin.

I actually do feel reasonably comfortable that reputable vendors are not out there hawking what we are calling ''blood diamonds.''
The thing that''s really bothering me is the diamond vendors have not bothered to educate us about this aspect of our diamond purchase, and then ridicule our concerns every time someone says ''I''m thinking of buying a Canadian diamond because I''m worried about getting a blood diamond.''

Of all the people who are ''in the business,'' Neil is the only one who understands customer concerns and recognizes that the diamond industry should pay attention -- he writes:

''The added value isn’t part of the stone. It''s not a gemological property. Listen to what the customers are saying! They want credible provenance, they’re willing to pay extra to get it and they don’t want to patronize suppliers who won’t provide it. Businesses that ignore their customers wishes do so at their own peril . . . ''

While this thread (well, just the parts that contain Neils thoughtful, intelligent, and educational posts) has given me a better understanding that my chances of buying a blood diamond are quite slim, it''s also solidified my opinion that as a consumer, I want to speak with my wallet and take my business to a vendor who will certify provenance.

You are out off line!!!

 

[glitterata]

I, too, would like to commend Neil for his clear, thoughtful, subtle, and humane posts. I work with a lot of professional writers, and I wish half of them were half as articulate as Neil. He''s even open to changing his mind when someone offers a persuasive argument.

Neil, two questions:

Do you have any thoughts about why most vendors DON''T make more of an effort to demonstrate that their diamonds are conflict-free?

And is it easier for smugglers to forge KP paperwork than the paperwork that assures buyers of Canadian diamonds that their diamonds really come from Canada?

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/30/2006 11:42:09 AM
Author: glitterata
I, too, would like to commend Neil for his clear, thoughtful, subtle, and humane posts. I work with a lot of professional writers, and I wish half of them were half as articulate as Neil. He's even open to changing his mind when someone offers a persuasive argument.

Neil, two questions:

Do you have any thoughts about why most vendors DON'T make more of an effort to demonstrate that their diamonds are conflict-free?

And is it easier for smugglers to forge KP paperwork than the paperwork that assures buyers of Canadian diamonds that their diamonds really come from Canada?

Thanks for the kind words.

The problem is that there’s just too much grey area for them to get stung with. Any dealer who steps forward and advertises a stone as being conflict free because it’s KP compliant is asking to get whacked because of the weaknesses and potential weaknesses in KP over which they have no control and because most people, including most jewelry store employees have never heard of it. It's easier to just show them a Canadian stone and be done with it.

Forging KP is a piece of cake, especially at the retail end. It’s nothing more than a claim by the retailer that they bought the stone from a KP provider that they consider reliable. It’s power lies in the fact that it’s illegal and unethical to do so and that the vast majority of jewelers and their suppliers are responsible, legitimate businessmen and women. They would like to see this problem solved, they are no more interested in being party to the atrocities than you are and they are happy to do their part to help. Even the sleezy ones want to stay on the right side of the law because a knock on the door by the FBI and the 60 minutes news team is not likely to be welcomed. The teeth come from US customs and interstate commerce laws that make it illegal to conduct business based on a false claim. The BIG teeth come from the USA Patriot Act that regulates, among other things, ‘financial instruments’, including diamonds. Foreigners who upset these folks get threatened with an indefinite vacation to Guantanamo so the power extends well beyond the US borders.

Forging GNWT paperwork would be pretty difficult but other than an added copyright violation the fundamental crime is the same.

At the show in Las Vegas this week I’ve heard of no less than 2 third party certification schemes to provide customers with an official looking laminated document that is based entirely on KP. There will surely be more coming in the near future. Whether or not the consuming public considers this to be progress will be interesting to watch.

The Canadians spend a pile of money promoting their system. Kimberley spends nothing. Is it better for the people of Africa to spend their diamond proceeds on advertisements in the US than on schools and infrastructure in Angola? Unfortunately, it might be, but it sure seems crazy. That’s part of the weirdness of the interconnected modern world and it goes way beyond issues about diamonds.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Joane]

Date: 5/28/2006 5:26:56 PM
Author: denverappraiser

RE: Branding.

Branding is key and it’s what the GNWT offers. They are adding value to make their diamonds worth more than superficially similar stones that don’t come with their stamp of approval. The fact that it it’s a value characteristic added by GNWT and not inherently part of the rough is exactly the point. The added value isn’t part of the stone. It''s not a gemological property. Listen to what the customers are saying! They want credible provenance, they’re willing to pay extra to get it and they don’t want to patronize suppliers who won’t provide it. Businesses that ignore their customers wishes do so at their own peril but perhaps the interest in global responsibility is just a passing fad. Personally I hope not. The only ones who can provide what is wanted are the manufacturers and the payoff is in premium prices both for themselves and their resellers.


In this you are convincing me. Losing market to the Canadians by poor marketing on the part of the Africans and those who sell their products may actually be doing some good. Forcing the various governments & companies to compete on the basis of who can provide the best paper trail may be helpful indeed. Perception becomes reality. If the people selling diamonds can’t convince their clients that the stones are conflict free then should lose the business to others who can.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ISA NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Three months later and I just read through this whole interesting thread. I really feel from reading the posts especially of the professionals here that great solutions will emerge from the industry to showcase the value of diamonds from all legitimate sources. I believe Neil''s post above sets out one good model that other providers could follow to add (perceived) value and assurances to their products. I also appreciated the background on supporting the development of a skilled industry in the northern Canadian communities with good working conditions. I did get a small Canadian diamond from a reputable dealer and that little maple leaf engraved on the girdle does have some Canadian pride to it. It would be wonderful to see diamonds of other countries sporting their own insignia of pride and provenance authenticity.

I also ordered the book "The Heartless Stone." Thanks for the recommendation. If anyone has any other books to recommend about diamonds, please do so. I want to learn as much as possible.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 9/3/2006 7:24:12 PM
Author: Joane
I want to learn as much as possible.

Joane,

You might also be interested in this recent thread, and the associated Journal article.

 

[Joane]

Thanks, Ira! I''m off to read it!