Autism and Vaccinations... need info

[LaraOnline]

Am I confused, or is this 'study' simply a comparison between statistics of vaccinated children with diagnosed diseases, and unvaccinated children with diagnosed diseases?

That seems too simple...?

How can that be seen as scientific? Wouldn't children who were unvaccinated be much more likely to have any disease remain UNDIAGNOSED as well, because their parents avoid or have no access to mainstream medicine?

Or am I missing something really basic?

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 12/28/2008 3:02:51 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Am I confused, or is this ''study'' simply a comparison between statistics of vaccinated children with diagnosed diseases, and unvaccinated children with diagnosed diseases?


That seems too simple...?


How can that be seen as scientific? Wouldn''t children who were unvaccinated be much more likely to have any disease remain UNDIAGNOSED as well, because their parents avoid or have no access to mainstream medicine?


Or am I missing something really basic?

Just to note, while the website is super biased they claim the study was done by a reputable, unbiased organization... I''ve never heard of it so I have no idea whether it''s true, but I thought I would throw that out there.

Just off the top of my head: correlation =/= causation... do they have any particular reason to think the two are linked other than the data that shows kids having one or both of the variables they''re using?

Also, the part I bolded above was my first thought when I was reading through it. I also don''t see how they could control for mis/overdiagnosis in some cases or not being diagnosed in others. I am not sure that all the info from the study is on that page and I didn''t seek out the info so perhaps those things were included.

Since I didn''t weigh in yet I''ll give my thoughts on it: I think given that the initial study has been pretty thoroughly chipped away at and there is no further compelling or conclusive evidence that is generally cited by experts in the field that it''s safe to say that kids should be vaccinated. As has been pointed out, if a kid catches one of the viruses that the vaccines are supposed to prevent it could be really bad.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 12/27/2008 11:52:41 PM
Author: mia1181
Okay so here is my sister's rebuttal: http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html


It's from Jenny Mccarthy's site. Anyone see any holes in this study? Besides that it was conducted by a biased group...

Entire thing is a hole. This is not a scientific study at all.

-Generation rescue picked the counties, geez I wonder which ones they picked. A non-random sample already, thus generating biased results.

-They quote stuff from the CDC about methodology (which is how it is spelled also, they spelled it incorrectly) yet do NOT confirm how they conducted their study at all. We need details to make sure they did it in the same manner as the CDC, it isn't good enough to say that they did a phone survey. There are a LOT of places to influence or introduce bias here and they didn't discuss it at all.

-SurveyUSA indeed has a vested interest, they want to please their clients! And they are not the top unbiased survey firm. They are a company that does surveys for other companies, not a survey company that does surveys for reliable scientific research. There is a big difference here.

-Has she read the survey??? It really tells you nothing about the family or asks about any relevant demographic information that needs to be included as control variables in the study. Control variables are those that need to be included in order to truly isolate the effect of having the vaccine from other mitigating factors like family health history, finances, access to insurance, education, etc.

-Where are the statistics used to come up with their risk ratios? Did they control for other family characteristics that easily influence why a child might have these disorders? They didn't even use any regressions, they simply looked at raw data without controlling for ANYTHING. This is not a scientific study.

No offense to your sister, but this is pretty much the worst "study" ever done. I do this kind of work, and really, this study would be ripped apart by any half witted person in research if given 2 minutes. I'd be happy to add more if she wants.

And really, does she really think JENNY MCCARTHY is a reliable source for anything??? Was she not around in the 90's???

 

[vespergirl]

I was also hesitant to vaccinate my 2 yo with the MMR vaccine, but I finally did. The MMRs are given at 15 mos and then again at around 4 years (it''s a series of two). I decided to wait until my son turned 2 for the first shot for several reasons.

First, as a child, I had negative reactions to vaccines given simultaneously, so my mom would have the dr. give me one at one appt., and then I would come back a week later or so to have the next. I didn''t know this, though, and at my son''s first vaccination appt. when he was a few months old, they gave him 5 shots at once. It was so overwhelming to his system, he spiked high fevers, had bad rashes and was miserable for days. When I told my mom, she told me that I should stagger his, like she did for me, and I have done that since, and it has worked out well.

Admittedly, I was also worried about the possible link to autism. Since my child doesn''t go to day care, I spoke to my dr. about postponing the MMR vaccine until after the autism symptoms usually start, at 18 mos. I did this because I wanted to be sure that my child wasn''t exhibiting any autism signs, and was growing up healthy, before I wanted to expose him to a controversial vaccine.

Anyway, he just had his MMR shot about a month ago, when he turned 2, and he''s totally normal and fine. I know that recently they released another study debunking the link between MMR shots and autism, so I felt more comfortable waiting a few months for "peace of mind."

Other than MMR, my son had all of his other vaccinations on schedule, and he is healthy and thriving.

 

[mia1181]

Aww thanks guys for taking the time to give me your opinion!

LaraOnline- That was also my initial reaction. They try to rebuff criticism on the site though:












We think the data disproves this, because we found no meaningful difference in prevalence for NDs between vaccinated and unvaccinated girls. If this was simply an issue of parent behavior, the girls would have shown wide discrepancies in prevalence, too, and they did not.

It''s also interesting to consider a study completed by the CDC and published in Pediatrics, Children Who Have Received No Vaccines: Who Are They and Where Do They Live? The study noted:

"Unvaccinated children tended to be white, to have a mother who was married and had a college degree, to live in a household with an annual income exceeding $75,000, and to have parents who expressed concerns regarding the safety of vaccines and indicated that medical doctors have little influence over vaccination decisions for their children."

And, it continues:

"Why do some parents avoid vaccinating their children? Our results indicate that parents of unvaccinated children are much more concerned about vaccine safety than are parents whose children receive 1 vaccine dose. In a survey of parent''s beliefs and practices regarding vaccinations and autism, siblings in families in which there was an autistic child were 3 times more likely to be unvaccinated, compared with siblings in families in which there was a child with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. In response to concerns about the perceived risk of autism resulting from vaccinations, parents might have avoided having their sons vaccinated at a higher rate than their daughters, as a result of knowing that they have risk factors for autism and knowing that the rate of autism is 4 times greater for boys than for girls."

could KILL your baby!" And I would tune in to find out that there was a study that "proves" a link between a mundane occurance and a rise in baby deaths. But now I am informed enough to know not to blindly believe that stuff without looking it up myself and asking how good of a study it was. Anyway, I usually don''t discuss these things with my sister but she brought it up now that she will be TTC soon and I will follow in a few years.

 

[mia1181]

HUH? Wow maybe my post was too long..... it came out all messed up!

 

[IluvEmeralds]

Date: 12/27/2008 9:03:25 AM
Author: merrymunky

Date: 12/27/2008 12:01:48 AM
Author: mia1181

Date: 12/26/2008 10:32:43 PM
Author: DivaDiamond007
My MD/PHD BIL says that there is no actual link between autism and vaccinations. My sister, a preschool teacher, says that autism is one of the most over-diagnosed diseases these days - - right along with ADD and ADHD.

Personally, I don''t know much of the science behind it and my DH and I have chosen to have our son vaccinated. He''s almost 6 months old and doing great. Where we live you must have your child vaccinated to attend public schools unless you can plea a religious exemption.

Good luck in you search for information!

I agree with this statement. I also have a teaching background and I definitely saw a lot of kids diagnosed with 1 of the 3 when really the only sign was behavior problems.

I agree with the statement in as far as over-diagnosis of ADHD and ADD. Not so much with the statement in relation to Autism though.

I also work in a special needs, in a special school for varying needs, the majority of which are either severely Autistic or ASD. I have also worked in special schools for specific social, emotional and behavioural difficulties. There were children there that I would say were mis-diagnosed with ADHD. There is a vast difference between a badly behaved child and one with ADHD. To the trained eye it is a lot easier to detect a child who definitely does have ADHD or a related condition. At those schools there were some children who were just uncontrollable and they knew it and used it to their advantage. The real cases just could not see how their behaviour affected those around them. The chemical inbalance in their brians leads them to believe that their behaviour is normal and acceptable.

So in saying that I have to say that Autism is hard to mis/over-diagnose. Those children believe their behaviour and actions are normal. It''s just how their brains are wired. They would see us as ''abnormal'' when compared to themselves. We have children in the class who are diagnosed as Global Delay. Occasionaly they mimick actions of the Autistic children and it is obvious to us that they definitely are not Autistic. But the Autistic children? They are very obviously Autistic.

In response to the statement about over-diagnosis - I think that there is a much higher frequency of diagnosis these days because we know more about Autism than we did even 15-20 years ago. Previously many people with Autism were just diagnised/thought of as ''slow'' or mentally deficient. Recent years hae seen big changes in attitude and practise with Autism.

Well said merrymunkey! I teach special ed as well and have for quite some time. I am amazed at how many more children we see these days with a diagnosis of ADHD or Autism or ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorders). I always wonder if it really is that these children display the true symptoms, or is it just the "fad" diagnosis. (Don''t take that the wrong way- I just see so many kids medicated for ADHD who don''t trully have it...and it makes me heart sick). Then again there are many children who trully HAVE these disorders, and need help. However...there are some lost in the mix I think.

That said I am FIRMLY in the camp that vaccinations DO NOT cause Autism nor do I believe that Autism can be cured. Everything I learned in my Master''s degree and my teaching leads me to this point. This to me is like saying I have diabetes and I can cure myself....no I can learn to MANAGE my disease with behavior modifications and medications...but I will never be CURED. Make sense? To me its the same with Autism, I''ve seen many children have roaring success with Behavior Modification therapy, and some medications (some prescribed, some natural).....it''s a disorder that has to be managed for each INDIVIDUAL...no two people with Autism are the same...just like no two people are the same.

It''s a very frustrating disorder and I certainly understand parent''s fear..however I do not think that denying vaccinations is the answer...that might only lead to further issues.

Just my 2 cents....

ILE

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 12/27/2008 12:02:46 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

People should see a neurologist or psychiatrist who specialize in ADHD rather than getting a diagnosis from a family doctor who just has the parents fill out a behavior checklist.

As someone with training in clinical psychology, I think this is the best advice for any parent on the issue of diagnosis!

Ten years ago the diagnosis du jour was ADD and ADHD, and most kids were labelled as such by a family doctor. Now, it is autism. Certainly, there are many children who display attentional deficits or who display autistic spectrum symptoms, and these children need proper intervention early to have the best long-term prognosis. But watching the "trends" in diagnosis over the last 10 years makes me very sad for all the children who are being labelled and medicated etc etc when they may or may not have either of these serious psychological disorders. Like most psychological issues, diagnosis is not simple, there is no blood test to determine if a child has ADHD or an autistic spectrum disorder. These are really syndromes with a lot of room for drastically different bundles of characteristics to warrant a diagnosis. Correctly identifying the best diagnosis for a child who is having social or developmental difficulties is a long and arduous process that should be handled by someone with specific training and expertise. In the end, the purpose of diagnosis is to allow the parents and educators and health care providors to design the best treatment and intervention programme to benefit the child.

As for the hypothesis that vaccinations cause autism, all I can say is this:

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I did not read all the replies so sorry if I am repeating something but what I always think is interesting about this is that I read Jenny''s first book. She has a VERY difficult labor where were son stopped breathing. I am not a doctor but I wonder why she doesn''t wonder if THAT could have caused some of his issues. Seems more logical to me than vaccinations. Also it is my understanding that you know pretty early on if your child has autistic tendencies (as early as 6 months). Still I have a friend who will only let her son get ONE vac at a time and really believes the whole diet cure (not that her son has autism). I will continue to follow the advice of my pedi, my father (who is a doc), my sister (who is a special ed teacher) and my own instincts and get my daughter vaccinated ON TIME.

 

[stepcutnut]

On the topic of vaccinations, since most comments seems to point out: that since your child is vaccinated, than they are 'safe' from these disease...Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on outbreaks amongst children who are fully vaccinated???

Only a few months ago, we had a Pertussis outbreak in our school system(4th and 5th) grade classes-then passed on to there entire families and teachers etc., the vast majority(98%) of the children were fully vaccinated. Any thoughts?

 

[packrat]

I would say that there isn''t a guarantee that a child would never in their entire life contract the diseases they''re vaccinated against. We had a meningitis outbreak here..2 years ago I think. A couple teenagers died and a couple ended up being life flighted to a bigger hospital, and as far as I know, they''d been vaccinated. One of our patients at the Dr''s office where I work was diagnosed with Pertussis, and even tho we''d all had the vaccine when we were younger, we all had to take medicine for it.

 

[~*Alexis*~]

Ok so here is MHO...

Jenny McCarthy is on crack. You CANNOT cure a child from Diet alone. You cannot cure a COGNITIVE disability from something like a diet.

Do I think that vaccines cause autism? NO. But I do think that the early vaccines which contained a lot of mercury could have attributed to the cause. But I do not think that it is the sole reason for a person having autism.

I have a step son who has autism and he was diagnosed at the age of 2. He also has Amblyopia and was 6 weeks premature. I do not think that just because he got vaccinated that its the reason to his learning disability.

If a child loses oxygen to the brain and stops breathing it can cause brain damage....so I don''t think that Jenny has really looked at all of her options....however I will give her props to voicing her concerns and putting Autism on the minds of people.