Autism and Vaccinations... need info

[mia1181]

Okay please don''t make this a heated debate.

My sister read Jenny McCarthy''s book about her son with autism which sparked an interest in the subject. She wanted to know my take on the issue, but unfortunately I haven''t read much about it. As a nanny, it would be helpful if I was more informed on the subject, but I am having trouble finding a place to start.

Are there any resources you could recommend to start looking for more information on the subject?

 

[KimberlyH]

http://www.autism-society.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_whatcauses

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/autism/DS00348/DSECTION=causes

Autism Spectrum Disorders by Chantal Sicile-Kira

Overcoming Autism by Lynn Kern Koegel, Ph.D. and Claire LaZebnik

 

[Stephanie]

Are you wanting to know more about the vaccination''s effct with autism or just autism in general?

 

[mia1181]

Thanks for the info KimberlyH, I''ll go check it out now.

Stephanie I''m looking for info on whether or not the vaccinations (MMR, I guess) can actually cause autism.

 

[DivaDiamond007]

My MD/PHD BIL says that there is no actual link between autism and vaccinations. My sister, a preschool teacher, says that autism is one of the most over-diagnosed diseases these days - - right along with ADD and ADHD.

Personally, I don''t know much of the science behind it and my DH and I have chosen to have our son vaccinated. He''s almost 6 months old and doing great. Where we live you must have your child vaccinated to attend public schools unless you can plea a religious exemption.

Good luck in you search for information!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 12/26/2008 9:40:49 PM
Author: mia1181
Stephanie I'm looking for info on whether or not the vaccinations (MMR, I guess) can actually cause autism.

According to a plethora of scientific research out there right now, there has been no established link between the two at all. I'd tell your sister to take anything Jenny McCarthy says with a grain of salt, she also did come out recently and said she "cured" her son's autism too with a diet...she's a bit off her rocker IMO.

And just so your sister knows, the effects of the diseases that we vaccinate against are far worse than any potential "link" to autism. The only reason that we don't see these diseases in our society today is because everyone is vaccinated. But the diseases certainly exist around the world and if many people continue to not get their children vaccinated it will just be a question of WHEN not IF that we have a breakout of these horrible diseases. And they really are horrible.

JMO though...

 

[KimberlyH]

Mia, I wasn''t sure what you were looking for so skipped commenting and sent you to resources. I have worked with children with autism for approximately two years in multiple settings (school, social skills program, and respite care) and done much reading on the subject. The prevailing belief amongst the medical community (and the parents of many children with autism whom I''ve encountered) is that there is no direct link between autism and thimerosal. Many factors could play into the reason behind the belief, including the possibility that lack of typical development in the areas which are considered the three major indications of ASD spectrum disorders -- social impairment, speech impairment, lack of imaginative thought -- should come about coincides closely with the majority of the recommended series of vaccines (I''ve reread/rewritten that sentence 10+ times and I''m still not sure I''ve made my point clear). My line of work has opened my eyes to a world I never could have imagined, and based upon the time I''ve spent researching and the hands-on work I''ve done/do in the ASD community, I would choose to vaccinate my child.

 

[honey22]

I recently read an article published in a Aussie magazine regarding Jenny''s story, and as a scientist, I have to worry about some of the comments she made. One was along the lines of, well we had him vaccinated when he was a baby, and then only weeks later, he was diagnosed with autism. (please don''t quote me here). I would argue that these are separate events. Babies get vaccinated when they are young, and the child''s symptoms probably became apparent when he was young, that''s not rocket science. Maybe this was the first chance they had to diagnose his disorder. There is no established link between the two at all.

I think it''s incredibly dangerous for parents not to vaccine due to ill-informed, uneducated reasons. This is one of them. The benefits far outweight the risks IMO. There is an established link between not vaccinating and getting ill, for example, if your child is not vaccinated for measles and that child comes into contact with the disease, it''s highly likely that child will become sick, yet so many parents ignore this fact, because somewhere, in some magazine, a parent is telling them rubbish about vaccination and autism. It''s just crazy. Why put your child at risk of horrible childhood diseases and the associated complications?

 

[mia1181]

Date: 12/26/2008 10:45:39 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 12/26/2008 9:40:49 PM
Author: mia1181
Stephanie I''m looking for info on whether or not the vaccinations (MMR, I guess) can actually cause autism.

According to a plethora of scientific research out there right now, there has been no established link between the two at all. I''d tell your sister to take anything Jenny McCarthy says with a grain of salt, she also did come out recently and said she ''cured'' her son''s autism too with a diet...she''s a bit off her rocker IMO.

And just so your sister knows, the effects of the diseases that we vaccinate against are far worse than any potential ''link'' to autism. The only reason that we don''t see these diseases in our society today is because everyone is vaccinated. But the diseases certainly exist around the world and if many people continue to not get their children vaccinated it will just be a question of WHEN not IF that we have a breakout of these horrible diseases. And they really are horrible.

JMO though...

Exactly what I told her at first! But then I realized I hadn''t actually read up on the subject, so who was I to disagree? I am a nanny to beautiful little special needs child and one thing I have learned about the parents in the special needs community is that some are desperately trying to "cure" their children. It''s really sad to have this happen to your child with no answers as to what caused it. But I am a fan of the scientific method so I look for proof!

Oh and I actually got into a discussion about this with my doctor a while back. She said that unfortunately many parents are not vaccinating their children and some of these diseases are making a comeback.

So yeah, I wrote my sister and told her based on what I have read today on the topic, I will certainly get my children vaccinated. I gave her a list of my reasons an a few links of information.

 

[mia1181]

Date: 12/26/2008 10:32:43 PM
Author: DivaDiamond007
My MD/PHD BIL says that there is no actual link between autism and vaccinations. My sister, a preschool teacher, says that autism is one of the most over-diagnosed diseases these days - - right along with ADD and ADHD.

Personally, I don't know much of the science behind it and my DH and I have chosen to have our son vaccinated. He's almost 6 months old and doing great. Where we live you must have your child vaccinated to attend public schools unless you can plea a religious exemption.

Good luck in you search for information!

I agree with this statement. I also have a teaching background and I definitely saw a lot of kids diagnosed with 1 of the 3 when really the only sign was behavior problems.

 

[KimberlyH]

Regarding the GFCF diet that has been referred to, while I do not believe it to be a cure, what I have seen is that it helps children on the spectrum who have gasrointestinal issues (a common trait of autism) which helps them sleep normally, which means that they are on a more typical schedule, which means that they function better on a day-to-day basis. Not the solution/cure for ASD, but a good place to start for parents of children with autism, because food/diet plays a role in so many other aspects of our lives, whether we are on the spectrum or not.

 

[mia1181]

Date: 12/27/2008 12:02:44 AM
Author: KimberlyH
Regarding the GFCF diet that has been referred to, while I do not believe it to be a cure, what I have seen is that it helps children on the spectrum who have gasrointestinal issues (a common trait of autism) which helps them sleep normally, which means that they are on a more typical schedule, which means that they function better on a day-to-day basis. Not the solution/cure for ASD, but a good place to start for parents of children with autism, because food/diet plays a role in so many other aspects of our lives, whether we are on the spectrum or not.

Okay that is my next thing to read up on...... My charge has brain damage. but she experiences sensory issues like some kids with autism have. She also has constipation issues and right now is not sleeping through the night. Definitely going to read up on this....

 

[mia1181]

Oh and if anyone is interested I liked this article about Jenny McCarthy:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/126287.php

Also I listened to 2 episodes of one of my Fave Podcasts "Pediacast." I like him (although he sounds like Ned Flanders) He''s a pediatrician and I really like the advice he gives/answers to questions. I might not always agree with his take on things but I like that he is so research-focused.

Here''s the main page: http://pediascribe.com/podcast/

And the two episodes where he talks about MMR and Autism:

http://www.pediascribe.com/podcast/20061023/pediacast-14-immunizations-mercury-autism-guillain-barre-347-404-5437/


http://www.pediascribe.com/podcast/20080208/pediacast-107-autism-autism-autism-347-404-5437/

 

[LuckyTexan]

I wish I could link you to an article, but I don''t think I read it, but rather HEARD it on a news broadcast...

Something about how California banned the use of mercury (supposedly what''s wrong with vaccines) some time ago and the instance of autism has not gone down there...

I''ve also heard that the HUGE amounts of casien and gluten in our diets is FAR MORE to blame than any small doses of mercury!

 

[TravelingGal]

I read a lot on this issue even before I was pregnant. I was cautious where I could be (making sure I got the thimersol free flu shots while pregnant which is the law in California even though many doctors don''t know it) but what I ''ve been reading has convinced me to go along with the vaccination shots as scheduled.

Wiki Andrew Wakefield - he''s the fellow whose study sparked this controversy. His study was emulated recently by a team of scientists (I''m going by memory here) and found no definitive link between MMR and autism. Also, 10 out of the 13 people on Wakefield''s original study have since rescinded their original conclusion that there may be a link.

There was also a "landmark" case recently where the parents of a little girl won (against who, I don''t remember) that a pre-existing condition of hers may have been aggravated by thimersol containing vaccinations. What this really means for the debate, I don''t really know.

I think they may be a link between vaccinations and autism when there is a pre-existing condition, but there''s not enough proof to cause me to delay the vaccination schedule. With 1 in 150 children said to be diagnosed with someone on the spectrum, there is a lot more press on autism in the last few years. As a parent, you have to do what you believe is right for your family. We''ve made the decision on ours as I believe the risk that some of these diseases have is much higher than getting the MMR in one dose. Even Doctor Sears (who had recommended delaying MMR and separating the doses) said in an article that while he still offers separate MMR, he says if your ped does not, it would not be a great concern to get it in one dose after the current study on Wakefield''s theory.

Again, this is all from memory, so you may want to double check anything I''ve said!!

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 12/27/2008 12:05:34 AM
Author: mia1181

Date: 12/27/2008 12:02:44 AM
Author: KimberlyH
Regarding the GFCF diet that has been referred to, while I do not believe it to be a cure, what I have seen is that it helps children on the spectrum who have gasrointestinal issues (a common trait of autism) which helps them sleep normally, which means that they are on a more typical schedule, which means that they function better on a day-to-day basis. Not the solution/cure for ASD, but a good place to start for parents of children with autism, because food/diet plays a role in so many other aspects of our lives, whether we are on the spectrum or not.

Okay that is my next thing to read up on...... My charge has brain damage. but she experiences sensory issues like some kids with autism have. She also has constipation issues and right now is not sleeping through the night. Definitely going to read up on this....

I am a firm believer in trying (safe and reasonable) options for at least 3 months to determine if they are helpful to the child. I know people who swear by the diet (not that it cured their children, just made a significant difference) and others who think the idea is silly. My experiences have led me to conclude that things such as diet changes are worth trying if it is possible that it will help the child function better, even if only by a small margin (and when dealing with children with autism what may be thought of as small/marginal progress by typical standards are often huge leaps in their world, I''m sure you can relate to that).

 

[merrymunky]

Date: 12/27/2008 12:01:48 AM
Author: mia1181

Date: 12/26/2008 10:32:43 PM
Author: DivaDiamond007
My MD/PHD BIL says that there is no actual link between autism and vaccinations. My sister, a preschool teacher, says that autism is one of the most over-diagnosed diseases these days - - right along with ADD and ADHD.

Personally, I don''t know much of the science behind it and my DH and I have chosen to have our son vaccinated. He''s almost 6 months old and doing great. Where we live you must have your child vaccinated to attend public schools unless you can plea a religious exemption.

Good luck in you search for information!

I agree with this statement. I also have a teaching background and I definitely saw a lot of kids diagnosed with 1 of the 3 when really the only sign was behavior problems.

I agree with the statement in as far as over-diagnosis of ADHD and ADD. Not so much with the statement in relation to Autism though.

I also work in a special needs, in a special school for varying needs, the majority of which are either severely Autistic or ASD. I have also worked in special schools for specific social, emotional and behavioural difficulties. There were children there that I would say were mis-diagnosed with ADHD. There is a vast difference between a badly behaved child and one with ADHD. To the trained eye it is a lot easier to detect a child who definitely does have ADHD or a related condition. At those schools there were some children who were just uncontrollable and they knew it and used it to their advantage. The real cases just could not see how their behaviour affected those around them. The chemical inbalance in their brians leads them to believe that their behaviour is normal and acceptable.

So in saying that I have to say that Autism is hard to mis/over-diagnose. Those children believe their behaviour and actions are normal. It''s just how their brains are wired. They would see us as "abnormal" when compared to themselves. We have children in the class who are diagnosed as Global Delay. Occasionaly they mimick actions of the Autistic children and it is obvious to us that they definitely are not Autistic. But the Autistic children? They are very obviously Autistic.

In response to the statement about over-diagnosis - I think that there is a much higher frequency of diagnosis these days because we know more about Autism than we did even 15-20 years ago. Previously many people with Autism were just diagnised/thought of as "slow" or mentally deficient. Recent years hae seen big changes in attitude and practise with Autism.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I believe thimerosol has been banned in children's vaccinations in the US. I do not think it is a direct cause of autism, but I am not sure they have ruled out that there could be an indirect connection in association with some kind of predisposition. But since they have taken out the thimerosol, I don't see that vaccinations are an issue. I might still space them out a bit, though.

When I had the flu shot, I chose to have a thimerosol free shot since mercury also has a connection to Alzheimers. My dad died with Alzheimers, so I'd just prefer not to take unnecessary chances. Thimerosol is apparently contained in multi-dose vials whereas the single dose syringes do not have it (or just a trace).

Incidentally, I recently had the opportunity to go hear one of the most prominent experts on ADHD speak (Russell Barkley), and he said that ADHD is underdiagnosed. Yes, there are regular doctors diagnosing without doing a thorough workup, but there are also many, many children who are never diagnosed.

 

[merrymunky]

Date: 12/27/2008 11:13:15 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I believe thimerosol has been banned in children''s vaccinations in the US. I do not think it is a direct cause of autism, but I am not sure they have ruled out that there could be an indirect connection in association with some kind of predisposition. But since they have taken out the thimerosol, I don''t see that vaccinations are an issue. I might still space them out a bit, though.

When I had the flu shot, I chose to have a thimerosol free shot since mercury also has a connection to Alzheimers. My dad died with Alzheimers, so I''d just prefer not to take unnecessary chances. Thimerosol is apparently contained in multi-dose vials whereas the single dose syringes do not have it (or just a trace).

Incidentally, I recently had the opportunity to go hear one of the most prominent experts on ADHD speak (Russell Barkley), and he said that ADHD is underdiagnosed. Yes, there are regular doctors diagnosing without doing a thorough workup, but there are also many, many children who are never diagnosed.

I know I said I thought it was over-diagnosed, but if he is saying that then I would assume it would be because it is more difficult to detect the difference from a badly behaved child and one with a genuine case of ADHD, as I said in my earlier post. I hope doctors are exercising caution with their diagnosis in this case.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 12/27/2008 11:33:41 AM
Author: merrymunky

Date: 12/27/2008 11:13:15 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I believe thimerosol has been banned in children''s vaccinations in the US. I do not think it is a direct cause of autism, but I am not sure they have ruled out that there could be an indirect connection in association with some kind of predisposition. But since they have taken out the thimerosol, I don''t see that vaccinations are an issue. I might still space them out a bit, though.

When I had the flu shot, I chose to have a thimerosol free shot since mercury also has a connection to Alzheimers. My dad died with Alzheimers, so I''d just prefer not to take unnecessary chances. Thimerosol is apparently contained in multi-dose vials whereas the single dose syringes do not have it (or just a trace).

Incidentally, I recently had the opportunity to go hear one of the most prominent experts on ADHD speak (Russell Barkley), and he said that ADHD is underdiagnosed. Yes, there are regular doctors diagnosing without doing a thorough workup, but there are also many, many children who are never diagnosed.

I know I said I thought it was over-diagnosed, but if he is saying that then I would assume it would be because it is more difficult to detect the difference from a badly behaved child and one with a genuine case of ADHD, as I said in my earlier post. I hope doctors are exercising caution with their diagnosis in this case.

I agree. People should see a neurologist or psychiatrist who specialize in ADHD rather than getting a diagnosis from a family doctor who just has the parents fill out a behavior checklist. However, as a teacher of kids with learning disabilities, I can pretty accurately tell you if a child has ADHD after working with them for an hour.

 

[mia1181]

Date: 12/27/2008 6:14:26 AM
Author: TravelingGal
I read a lot on this issue even before I was pregnant. I was cautious where I could be (making sure I got the thimersol free flu shots while pregnant which is the law in California even though many doctors don''t know it) but what I ''ve been reading has convinced me to go along with the vaccination shots as scheduled.

Wiki Andrew Wakefield - he''s the fellow whose study sparked this controversy. His study was emulated recently by a team of scientists (I''m going by memory here) and found no definitive link between MMR and autism. Also, 10 out of the 13 people on Wakefield''s original study have since rescinded their original conclusion that there may be a link.

There was also a ''landmark'' case recently where the parents of a little girl won (against who, I don''t remember) that a pre-existing condition of hers may have been aggravated by thimersol containing vaccinations. What this really means for the debate, I don''t really know.

I think they may be a link between vaccinations and autism when there is a pre-existing condition, but there''s not enough proof to cause me to delay the vaccination schedule. With 1 in 150 children said to be diagnosed with someone on the spectrum, there is a lot more press on autism in the last few years. As a parent, you have to do what you believe is right for your family. We''ve made the decision on ours as I believe the risk that some of these diseases have is much higher than getting the MMR in one dose. Even Doctor Sears (who had recommended delaying MMR and separating the doses) said in an article that while he still offers separate MMR, he says if your ped does not, it would not be a great concern to get it in one dose after the current study on Wakefield''s theory.

Again, this is all from memory, so you may want to double check anything I''ve said!!

Tgal your memory is pretty good! The study also only studied 12 children! That''s not a big enough sample size to really indicate anything to me!

 

[mia1181]

Date: 12/27/2008 11:13:15 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I believe thimerosol has been banned in children''s vaccinations in the US. I do not think it is a direct cause of autism, but I am not sure they have ruled out that there could be an indirect connection in association with some kind of predisposition. But since they have taken out the thimerosol, I don''t see that vaccinations are an issue. I might still space them out a bit, though.

When I had the flu shot, I chose to have a thimerosol free shot since mercury also has a connection to Alzheimers. My dad died with Alzheimers, so I''d just prefer not to take unnecessary chances. Thimerosol is apparently contained in multi-dose vials whereas the single dose syringes do not have it (or just a trace).

Incidentally, I recently had the opportunity to go hear one of the most prominent experts on ADHD speak (Russell Barkley), and he said that ADHD is underdiagnosed. Yes, there are regular doctors diagnosing without doing a thorough workup, but there are also many, many children who are never diagnosed.

I can agree with this. I think ADD/ADHD can definitely be overdiagnosed and underdiagnosed at the same time. There are a lot of kids out there whose parents say "I just don''t know what to do with them" and look for a diagnosis. It is interesting how a child will be disruptive in school and parents get a call from the school. The parents get defensive and react with "Well I don''t know what I''m supposed to do about it, he does the same thing at home." It is almost as if they feel like they are being blamed and want to push the blame on the child. Something must be wrong with the child for acting up. Now I don''t doubt that some of these kids really do have ADHD/ADD and their parents really aren''t equiped to deal. But just because a child has behavior issues doesn''t mean they have ADHD.

At the same time, there are probably a lot of kids out there who are just labeled as "behavior problems" but their parents/teachers don''t realize that it might be ADD/ADHD.

By the way, my brother was diagnosed with ADHD and medicated. I really believe to this day that he doesn''t have it. Sure, he was always a behavior problem as a child, but I can attribute that to our parent''s poor parenting skills. He had a rough childhood, so obviously he was going to act out. My mother is one of those moms who is constantly at battle with the schools

. For some reason she has this "us versus them" mentality. I don''t think she wanted to admit that she wasn''t doing a good enough job as a parent, so my brother was diagnosed and medicated. Interestingly, the drugs definitely mellowed him out in that he was in a total relaxed state when he was on them, but he still had behavior problems! So maybe my experiences with ADHD shape my opinion on the subject.

 

[snlee]

Here''s an article in TIME magazine about vaccines. I found it very informative.

 

[mia1181]

Good Article, thanks for sharing Snlee!

 

[Pandora II]

The area of London I live in has a very low take-up rate for the MMR vaccine and we have had 3 measles outbreaks so far this year and 2 children have died from it.

Doctors over here are very worried about a major epidemic in the UK as not enough kids have been vaccinated here to confer ''herd'' immunity.

Dr Wakefield has a lot to answer for!

Measles can be a very serious illness - I was at school with a boy who caught it when he was 13 and was left severely brain-damaged. It was so sad (he''d just won a major scholarship as well).

Our children will all be vaccinated with the triple-jab.

 

[Mediterranean]

So, in reading the responses on this thread, I''ve noticed references made to thimerosol and mercury containing vaccinations and how these ingredients have now been banned.

Which leads me to ask a question:

Does anyone know if there is a way to get a list of all ingredients in common vaccines, by vaccine name? Would the doctor who is administering them know for sure, or do we contact the companies who manufacture them, or...?

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 12/27/2008 5:29:05 PM
Author: Mediterranean
So, in reading the responses on this thread, I''ve noticed references made to thimerosol and mercury containing vaccinations and how these ingredients have now been banned.


Which leads me to ask a question:


Does anyone know if there is a way to get a list of all ingredients in common vaccines, by vaccine name? Would the doctor who is administering them know for sure, or do we contact the companies who manufacture them, or...?

The packaging of the vaccine should have a list of ingredients which you should be able to see when you bring your child in if you ask ahead of time. The manufacturer should also, as well as the FDA I believe. Make sure if you do research online though that the info you find is for the version of the vaccine you/your child is getting. Different versions have different ingredients sometimes.

 

[Kaleigh]

When it was time to get my son vaccinated with the MMR vaccine, I insisted they space it out over time. I wasn't going to take any chances since the vaccine at the time was egg based? My son was very allergic to eggs and just about everything else, so had to error on the side of caution. This was 18 years ago or so...

One organization I would check out is Autism Speaks, my son Caddies for the founders. Their grandson has Autism.

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 12/27/2008 5:19:21 PM
Author: Pandora II
The area of London I live in has a very low take-up rate for the MMR vaccine and we have had 3 measles outbreaks so far this year and 2 children have died from it.


Doctors over here are very worried about a major epidemic in the UK as not enough kids have been vaccinated here to confer ''herd'' immunity.


Dr Wakefield has a lot to answer for!


Measles can be a very serious illness - I was at school with a boy who caught it when he was 13 and was left severely brain-damaged. It was so sad (he''d just won a major scholarship as well).


Our children will all be vaccinated with the triple-jab.

The trend towards increasing numbers of older fathers is also being investigated as a possible link, is it not?

linky

Personally, I feel it is highly irresponsible for parents to ignore the realities of illness which can be vaccinated against. Vaccine development and provision to children has been a huge undertaking for modern medicine, and has changed our lives for the better - a huge leap forward in health.

And yet, some friends of mine, who appear to be otherwise intelligent people, decided to have their infant ''vaccinated'' via homeopathy.
Needless to say, the child had whooping cough within a few weeks. Although to this day I understand they are still supportive of homeopathy vaccines instead of actual vaccines.

 

[mia1181]

Okay so here is my sister''s rebuttal: http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html

It''s from Jenny Mccarthy''s site. Anyone see any holes in this study? Besides that it was conducted by a biased group...