Are there people here who deny climate change (global warming)?

[Tekate]

We can get off fossil fuels asap, look at the air in places where cars are not in use right now. California is burning down, Australia is turning into a heatzone and the great barrier reef is almost dead, WE CAN do things to stop this or slow it down, Why instead of adapting and what moving? everyone on coasts all over the world and island being underwater, yeah change happens but slowly, we as humans are making this much worse.

Even you would agree that if humans can do some simple things to slow the melting of the ice caps, that we should.

my old state Maine will be in real trouble, right now the lobsters are moving to Canadian waters and all the lobstermen/women are going to be outta jobs.

Did you see Venice water? I saw so many gorgeous pix of Venice, which I really have only been to once and I was not impressed at all, tooooo much water everywhere. But the architecture was so beautiful... We should work to stave off the water if we can.

Effects of Sea-Level Rise on Maine

The Natural Resources Council of Maine (NRCM) released one of the most complete depictions ever done of the potential impacts on Maine's coastline from rising sea levels due to global warming. Using the latest available science,

www.nrcm.org

Climate has been and will continue to change as long as the earth exists.
Humans have been adapting and will continue to adapt to it.
Anyone who thinks anything on earth stays the same is not very smart.
Everything changes.

 

[Tekate]

i cannot find any information on the site as to who funds this site and who the people behind it are, do you have pointers to where I can read about the people who started it?

I remain sceptical of the anthropogenic global warming / CO2 science.


There appears to be evidence that the historical temperature records are being 'adjusted' to make sure that warming looks like it is happening:

Highest U.S. Temperatures on Record by State - Electroverse

The raw data speaks for itself -- the United States was hotter in the past. "They" can fudge the charts, but they can't alter the record books.

electroverse.net

And we seem to be experiencing much greater extremes of weather, both hot and cold, which would tie in with the meridional jetstream theory put forward by those advocating the sun is driving any changes to climate:
https://electroverse.net/the-changing-jet-stream-and-global-cooling/

(I will await accusations of electroverse being a 'crank' site )


There is so much riding on CO2 / global warming (taxation, government policy, apparently-desired societal change, etc.) that an open, unbiased discussion seems impossible.


Whatever the truth, it would seem accurate to say that we humans are consuming energy and materials faster than the rate at which they are being captured / laid down, and there's only so long you can use a battery for (which the earth basically is) before it runs out.

The fact is that massive global depopulation is the only real solution to the current material and energy consumption issues - and, strangely, people pushing the green agenda seem reluctant to discuss that...



EDIT: If you'll excuse the Daily Star link :

July could be coldest in 32 years as Britain suffers 'payback summer'

This summer could be a "reality check" after years of unusually scorching weather, forecasters claim, with temperatures struggling to reach even average July highs of 24C in Britain

www.dailystar.co.uk

July could be one of the coldest on record as rainy weather returns

After a record-breaking spring, June and July have not lived up to expectations.

metro.co.uk

2020 = coolest July since 1988 / 1888 (haven't seen an update on the story to confirm)
2019 = record highs of 38+ degrees, but wettest June for 89 years
2018 = hottest summer on record

Extremes in either direction suggest that 'global warming' (a constant, inescapable increase in temperature) is not the case.

 

[OoohShiny]

i cannot find any information on the site as to who funds this site and who the people behind it are, do you have pointers to where I can read about the people who started it?

I'm not sure who runs electroverse, but they do link to third parties' information and reports in their articles so it's not all baseless in-house assertions or tin foil hat ranting, lol.

I'm sure they are indeed run by people some would call 'AGW deniers', but the other side of the coin is the BBC et al who only ever seem to positively promote AGW in their articles and never report low(er than average) temperatures - yet surely both should be reported by media outlets so that the full picture is known?!

 

[kenny]

Billions believe stuff for which there is no evidence.
So why not refuse to believe stuff for which there IS evidence.

Turning off brains.

 

[Matata]

Climate Change Evidence: How Do We Know?

The rate of change since the mid-20th century is unprecedented over millennia.

climate.nasa.gov

 

[Matata]

Here's More Proof Earth Is in Its 6th Mass Extinction

Animals worldwide are going extinct at an average rate that is 114 times higher than it would be without human interference, a new study finds.

www.livescience.com

"Over the last century, species of vertebrates are dying out up to 114 times faster than they would have without human activity, said the researchers, who used the most conservative estimates to assess extinction rates. That means the number of species that went extinct in the past 100 years would have taken 11,400 years to go extinct under natural extinction rates, the researchers said.

Much of the extinction is due to human activities that lead to pollution, habitat loss, the introduction of invasive species and increased carbon emissions that drive climate change and ocean acidification, the researchers said. [7 Iconic Animals Humans Are Driving to Extinction]"

What are mass extinctions, and what causes them?

In the last 500 million years, life has had to recover from five catastrophic blows. Are humans dealing the planet a sixth?

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[Karl_K]

California fires are a result of multiple local issues not global.

1: allowing people to live where they have no business living.
2: messed with the burn\growth balance until it is out of sync resulting in massive fires.
3: refusal to properly groom the forests and control dead fall.

 

[Matata]

California fires are a result of multiple local issues not global.

Right. However, it is a global issue because humans inhabit most of the globe. That's one state and one issue; multiply that by multiple states and countries where those particular behaviors exist and it becomes a global issue. The smoke from those fires has a global effect. Our combined behaviors are complex and create complex problems that contribute to global climate change. The Butterfly Effect.

 

[Karl_K]

Right. However, it is a global issue because humans inhabit most of the globe. That's one state and one issue; multiply that by multiple states and countries where those particular behaviors exist and it becomes a global issue. The smoke from those fires has a global effect. Our combined behaviors are complex and create complex problems that contribute to global climate change. The Butterfly Effect.

The only ones that can improve the fire problem in CA are the people of CA.
Its a local problem that is going to have to be answered locally.

 

[kenny]

California fires are a result of multiple local issues not global.

1: allowing people to live where they have no business living.
2: messed with the burn\growth balance until it is out of sync resulting in massive fires.
3: refusal to properly groom the forests and control dead fall.

I agree with Karl ... but a warmer planet and climate change doesn't help.

 

[House Cat]

The soot from the wildfires travels until it lands on the glaciers. That soot attracts the sun and causes them to melt at an alarming rate. This causes the ocean to warm.

Wildfires are more than a local issue.

I’m in the forest all of the time. They have a massive effort going on to clean up all of the dead trees that have been attacked by bark beetles and drought. All of the trees that have survived look like they are dead on the bottom half. This was caused by severe drought. The forest is dry.

 

[Tekate]

yes they do, but I could only find a posting on of all places REDDIT.

https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/agbl4a

https://www.reddit.com/r/environment/comments/brx0ik

Most interestingly, every “article” is written by the same person, Cap Allon. I did a quick Google search of Cap Allon, and according to Facebook he’s an aspiring screenwriter who graduated from University of Florida in 2010. https://www.facebook.com/cap.allon Currently he lives in Braunton, England. He’s British.

i personally think man incurred climate change has caused most of the problems we are having today, I take note of @qubitasaurus's remarks, which seem true to me, even if we can stop and slow down the crap we are doing, we will not go back to the way we were, it takes thousands of years for climate change to really change the climate unless we have a HUGE BIG meteor hit the planet as what happened in the Gulf of
Mexico.

One moment, please...

www.psi.edu

if we can do something to alleviate the loss of reefs, animals (polar bears as an example) we should do it, for the future generations.

It won't matter to you and I because we won't be here.

I'm not sure who runs electroverse, but they do link to third parties' information and reports in their articles so it's not all baseless in-house assertions or tin foil hat ranting, lol.

I'm sure they are indeed run by people some would call 'AGW deniers', but the other side of the coin is the BBC et al who only ever seem to positively promote AGW in their articles and never report low(er than average) temperatures - yet surely both should be reported by media outlets so that the full picture is known?!

 

[Tekate]

California fires are a result of multiple local issues not global.

1: allowing people to live where they have no business living.
2: messed with the burn\growth balance until it is out of sync resulting in massive fires.
3: refusal to properly groom the forests and control dead fall.

Why Are There So Many Fires in California?

Where do we start?

www.popularmechanics.com

.

They can be caused by humans, lightning strikes but what makes them brutal is climate change.

 

[mrs-b]

My best friend works for NASA and his job some years ago was measuring polar ice caps to extrapolate changes that had occurred over time (long time - think - thousands of years). I have another friend - since high school - who was on the climate change group who wrote the report that won the Nobel Peace Prize some years back.

These people are lifelong scientists. They're both government funded. The American friend is Republican. The Australian friend is a lifelong conservative. Neither of them want to believe in climate change. Both of them do.

Why do some people think everything they don't want to believe is a conspiracy theory? Sometimes it's just bad news. Sometimes it IS our fault. Sometimes we DO have to change.

As a Christian myself, I have never understood why Christians would admit to sin in every conceivable area...EXCEPT environmental responsibility. (I'll include gluttony and sexism there - topics on which you NEVER hear sermons - but that's a whole other topic). Christians should be the FIRST people to admit when we're not doing well - and we are FOR SURE not doing well at taking care of this planet.

But - religion or no religion - just look at the shrinking Amazon. Anyone who thinks that problem isn't man-made, or who thinks that won't come back to bite us on the behind, just has their head in the sand. The shrinking Amazon, the warming oceans, the shrinking polar ice caps - these situations terrify me. I know people who look at these things and think - "Well - the world's gotta end some time..." To which I respond - sure, maybe it does. But I'd rather it DIDN'T END ON MY WATCH.

And as for the flagrant loss of health and beauty - that's just heartbreaking. Yes, we can adapt. We can adapt to uglier, sadder, sicker. We can adapt to less. We can adapt to poor. But - here's a thought - why should we? Why not change our behavior and NOT adapt to those things? How about we preserve some trees, save some animals, conserve some water, clean the air, and keep the shit out of the oceans and waterways? How about we all settle for being just a little bit less rich and cushy, and a tad more responsible?

Until we value health and beauty more than our own fat, comfy asses, we're not gonna change a damn thing. I go with 'health and beauty' because 'responsibility' seems to be just too far beyond some people.

We have got to be the only species on earth that looks at something gorgeous, like a wild, beautiful, giraffe in Africa - and thinks - "Oooo! I know! Let's kill it!!"

Do not start me on the hunting culture....

 

[MMtwo]

I'm an "other". I do not deny climate change, but I smell profit tied to panic. Ugh, follow the money and you will find Bannons building walls.

Years ago, I remember my father (who was a scientist) tell us we were headed into an ice-age. I remember 2009, and watched the panic-y apocalyptic ABC special. Some of the predictions of the 1990's were over-shot. I think to try to get people to pay attention and get behind "it".

However, here is where I struggle. The "it" people push for, believe in and fervently support tend to be words. Your hearts are in the right place! But what we believe in is not really what we do. A pet has a large footprint of resources. Recycling that yogurt tub is not saving me. It just makes me feel better. The most dangerous Trump supporter and the devoted green hearted liberal both drive cars, drink water and heat their houses. We use curling irons and blow driers.

I've mentioned before, I'm moderately conservative. We installed a solar power system last year. I like that the energy is clean. Even better, I love how the electricity is free. So, I want to underscore because I am conservative, it does not correlate with a love of dirty air and wasteful living. However...I'll wait and watch.

 

[qubitasaurus]

yes they do, but I could only find a posting on of all places REDDIT.

https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/agbl4a

https://www.reddit.com/r/environment/comments/brx0ik

Most interestingly, every “article” is written by the same person, Cap Allon. I did a quick Google search of Cap Allon, and according to Facebook he’s an aspiring screenwriter who graduated from University of Florida in 2010. https://www.facebook.com/cap.allon Currently he lives in Braunton, England. He’s British.

i personally think man incurred climate change has caused most of the problems we are having today, I take note of @qubitasaurus's remarks, which seem true to me, even if we can stop and slow down the crap we are doing, we will not go back to the way we were, it takes thousands of years for climate change to really change the climate unless we have a HUGE BIG meteor hit the planet as what happened in the Gulf of
Mexico.

One moment, please...

www.psi.edu

if we can do something to alleviate the loss of reefs, animals (polar bears as an example) we should do it, for the future generations.

It won't matter to you and I because we won't be here.

Oh yes, and we are already crossing the wetbulb tempetature. The wetbulb temperature demarks the humidity and temperature conditions where the climate becomes lethal. Irrespective of how much water you drink you will die. I seem to remmeber it doesnt take that long to die either (basically you die within a couple of hours no matter what you do. So for instance if the city's electiricity grid failed you might trigger enmass death of the inhabitants.). The crossing of the wetbulb temperature threshhold in certain places was projected to occur later this century, but it now seems to have possibly happened already ahead of schedule.

I dont really get climate change deniers. Some parts of california already have quite high wetbulb temperatures -- if it climbs it could become deadly. Same goes for many parts of my home country Australia. Unfortunately theyre generally predicted to climb in many places. By the end kof the 21st century a bunch of locations will just no longer be habitable (at least not by mamals).

AAAS

advances.sciencemag.org

 

[Karl_K]

I dont really get climate change deniers.

The climate always has changed and always will.
Saying fighting client change is the stupidest saying ever.
The climate never has nor will it ever stay the same.

 

[MMtwo]

The climate always has changed and always will.
Saying fighting client change is the stupidest saying ever.

People get so angry...like spitting mad at "enemy" people who are agnostic or skeptical of climate change. What does someone at the consumer level do differently than a hardened skeptic that makes an appreciable difference?

 

[Karl_K]

People get so angry...l

My problem with it beyond the terms are just silly is people like Al Gore and others are using it to make a boatload of money while flying around the country on private planes laughing at everyone else.
Every study if you follow the money is paid for by one side or the other.
Then there is cap and trade aka carbon credits which is a tax on the producers and consumers paid to the rich they keep pushing is criminal.
Using corn as fuel for a gas additive should be classified as crimes against humanity. There are starving people in the world but you are burning food in your car!!!!
Does anyone care? Nope because its just slightly green until you take into account all the car repairs/junking it causes then its just another bad idea that kills people.
I get just as ticked off at the corporations who pollute on a mass scale.

The only real answer..
Invest in tech to move forward.
Punish polluters harshly and stop them from buying politicians to get out of it.

The problem with many plans is they want to cause severe damage to the economy and people are not going to go for it.

 

[Tekate]

What you have to be poor and dumb to make money?

We are all paid by somebody.. that is tangential.

Using fossil fuel today is a crime against humanity little own corn.

i'm getting an electric truck next year!

There are starving people all over the world and there will always be such.

I have always cared and will care and many many millions of people care and I don't know where you get your information BUT it may be Q because they are prone to conspiracy theories and making tons at it.

I get ticked off about pollution by anyone and any company.

My problem with it beyond the terms are just silly is people like Al Gore and others are using it to make a boatload of money while flying around the country on private planes laughing at everyone else.
Every study if you follow the money is paid for by one side or the other.
Then there is cap and trade aka carbon credits which is a tax on the producers and consumers paid to the rich they keep pushing is criminal.
Using corn as fuel for a gas additive should be classified as crimes against humanity. There are starving people in the world but you are burning food in your car!!!!
Does anyone care? Nope because its just slightly green until you take into account all the car repairs/junking it causes then its just another bad idea that kills people.
I get just as ticked off at the corporations who pollute on a mass scale.

The only real answer..
Invest in tech to move forward.
Punish polluters harshly and stop them from buying politicians to get out of it.

The problem with many plans is they want to cause severe damage to the economy and people are not going to go for it.

 

[Karl_K]

i'm getting an electric truck next year!

Well bless your heart. Your special.
They are not at the point where everyone can get one and the electrical system would not handle it.
Fossil fuels are going to be in use for a long time yet.

 

[Karl_K]

BUT it may be Q because they are prone to conspiracy theories and making tons at it.

Is that supposed to be an insult or something?
Q is just as insane as the average msnbc talking head and neither is worth 1 min of my time.

 

[OoohShiny]

What you have to be poor and dumb to make money?

We are all paid by somebody.. that is tangential.

Using fossil fuel today is a crime against humanity little own corn.

i'm getting an electric truck next year!

There are starving people all over the world and there will always be such.

I have always cared and will care and many many millions of people care and I don't know where you get your information BUT it may be Q because they are prone to conspiracy theories and making tons at it.

I get ticked off about pollution by anyone and any company.

Have you looked at the full impacts of an electric vehicle, from the volume of material required to be mined, the chemical and physical and human impacts of mining, the energy required to ship the materials round the world for processing, all the energy used to then process that material into a usable form, the energy used to shape it into a vehicle and its components, the oil used to create the plastics within the vehicle, the energy requirements of the companies in the supply chain (from direct energy during their work, to the energy required by their staff to man their business)... all the way through to the energy required to ship the finished articles around the world and then have them in showrooms?

And will you be charging them with 'green energy'? From solar panels and wind farms made of vast amounts of materials at a high energy cost?

I just cannot believe that the impacts of making a new vehicle are smaller than the impacts of just putting fuel and oil and tyres and the occasional replacement part on an existing vehicle.


The recent Michael Moore film 'Planet of the Humans is an interesting watch:

 

[seaurchin]

I'm no expert on climate change but I think there may not be one big fix but rather many changes people could make, large and small. So now I'm reading about it. It's amazing what topics become thrilling when I am supposed to be cleaning the house.

These Are the Things You Can Do to Slow Climate Change

Here are several things you can do every day to reduce your energy costs and your use of fossil fuels, which contribute to global warming.

www.thoughtco.com

ETA: One thing the Covid-19 disaster has shown is how much better we could do with the environment all around. All kinds of animals are making a comeback in places they were no longer seen, the skies are clean where they were smoggy and more.

 

[partgypsy]

I do think the solution needs to be all of the above. If "climate change" doesn't move you, then how about being concerned about: increase in air, water, ground pollution. Worldwide decrease in biodiversity. Extinction rate 50 times higher than background extinction rate. Overall reductions of amazon (huge driver moderator of world weather patterns). Reduction of green forested land. The running out of water, arable land, etc. Even if you take climate change out of the picture there are extremely compelling reasons to stop doing business as usual. And I won't use Al gore flying a plane to excuse my own inaction. I think it's going to have to be all of the above: reduction of consumption. The whole reduce, reuse recycle that was common in people after the depression, and during the war (think victory gardens). Emphasis on family and relationships over things and consumption. Saving power, getting nuclear power plants online and making renewable energies more competitive. Weatherproofing and making houses more energy efficient. Yes, reducing population rates. There are powerful forces including multi billion dollar companies, and our comfort levels to not change the status quo, in fact a push to exploit any further remaining resources even faster... I think our ethos has to change of what we value. That we and embrace this world is not just for us but all the living creatures and ecosystems on this planet. That this world is not just for us but for also our responsibility to preserve it for future generations.

 

[voce]

My problem with it beyond the terms are just silly is people like Al Gore and others are using it to make a boatload of money while flying around the country on private planes laughing at everyone else.
Every study if you follow the money is paid for by one side or the other.
Then there is cap and trade aka carbon credits which is a tax on the producers and consumers paid to the rich they keep pushing is criminal.
Using corn as fuel for a gas additive should be classified as crimes against humanity. There are starving people in the world but you are burning food in your car!!!!
Does anyone care? Nope because its just slightly green until you take into account all the car repairs/junking it causes then its just another bad idea that kills people.
I get just as ticked off at the corporations who pollute on a mass scale.

The only real answer..
Invest in tech to move forward.
Punish polluters harshly and stop them from buying politicians to get out of it.

The problem with many plans is they want to cause severe damage to the economy and people are not going to go for it.

Tech won't solve overpopulation. It would be far more effective to tax people based on how many children they have, and force people to use contraceptives. But that's not gonna fly because of the thing called human rights. Humans think they have the right to have as many children as they want with impunity.

Some people like Octomom even did it to get government money.

The trouble with environmental action is there are no clear actions that work for everyone, and the people promoting it don't really have a clear understanding of their own substantial carbon footprint.

 

[OoohShiny]

re: loss of trees, it does seem as though the world is getting greener - whether by man planting more trees or by trees growing more due to more food (CO2) being available to them:

Global warming slowing down? - MarketForum

www.marketforum.com

 

[qubitasaurus]

The climate always has changed and always will.
Saying fighting client change is the stupidest saying ever.
The climate never has nor will it ever stay the same.

Yes it does. Yet you can still measure roughly what rate it is changing at and ask whether that rate is an annomally in the dataset. You can then safely conclude that you need a second mechanism to explain current rate of change.

Establishing causation is very difficult. Mostly statisticians and comouter scientists would tell to invoke Judeah Pearl's work on causal models. Unfortunately Pearl's stuff often requires you to be able to freeze out certain variables (i.e. you need to control for some of the varaibales by fixing their value) to determine whether a link between two things is causal. Here I dont think you'll be able to do that.

When this fails I imagine your best fall back is to look at what the mechanism is by which one variable effects the other.

I can see from the paper/figures that the wetbulb temperature in quite a few places has already gone above the temperature at which you can reasonably exercise outside. I imagine what is currently saving us is that these readings were irregular and only persisted for a short while. However if the climate keeps changing (from whatever effect is causing it) then this may not be true anymore. There was a prediction that the minimum possible rise in global temp is 4 degrees from emissions we'd released -- I atually think this minimum may have been based on total emissions from resources we had already unearthed and sold off the rights to mine to mncs (it was updated a few years ago from previous estimate of 2). While this doesnt mean temperature in one specific place will go up, let alone wetbulb temperature. It does indicate there will be further rapid anomalous changes over the next decades to century. And I really dont think we are ready for them -- this conversarion alone is convincing me of this.

 

[Tekate]

Well, as special as anyone I guess, but I do put my money where my mouth is sugar.

Well bless your heart. Your special.
They are not at the point where everyone can get one and the electrical system would not handle it.
Fossil fuels are going to be in use for a long time yet.

 

[kenny]

The climate always has changed and always will.
Saying fighting client change is the stupidest saying ever.
The climate never has nor will it ever stay the same.

As with diamonds, there are obviously two kinds of climate change, natural and man made.
Obviously Gore and the rest of us are concerned with the later.
You should be too, Karl.

Everyone, red and blue, who lives on this planet should take better care of it so it can have the best future possible.