Are there people here who deny climate change (global warming)?

[voce]

Climate Change Lesson From California's Blackouts: Prepare For Extremes

Extreme heat waves are on the rise, but California regulators didn't plan for what that would do the state's electricity grid.

www.npr.org

This issue hits close to home for me. Yet a family friend who's a hardcore Trump supporter believes only the minority opinion scientists who claim that global warming is a natural phenomenon.

My opinion is that it doesn't matter whether it's a natural phenomenon, a phenomenon caused by a mix of natural and human factors, or a phenomenon caused by human factors such as higher carbon emissions. If A) the thermometer readings are creeping up year after year, and B) humans are suffering as a result of higher temperatures, then we should do something about it.

What say you?

The issue is the issue, and I wish this discussion to take place without recommending any specific political candidates. There's enough threads that have turned into elect Biden / don't elect Biden arguments.

 

[lyra]

We were very concerned about ecology back in the 70's. So some of us here are experiencing not deja vu, but just more confirmation that nothing has changed, no one did anything much about it except banning some things, and that it's all gotten much worse. Generations have seen it, and not many have cared, or pushed for change until recently. It's disappointing to me.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

I find the probable causes of climate change to be a distinction without a difference. To me the logical course would be that immediate sweeping global action should be taken to ensure the continued health of the planet and everything on it.
We can argue about the why or how later.

 

[scouty]

Climate change is an existential crisis facing our planet. When in Delhi I could barely breath without coughing and instantly feeling sick due to the poor air quality. Then during the lockdown there were images of clear blue skies. To me this was a visual example of a climate wakeup call. I believe humanity will be forced to colonize space if this risk to human civilization on Earth is not dealt with.

 

[doberman]

I'll tell you something else: the bird population is way, way down and I'm sure global warming (and our love of pesticides) is responsible.

 

[Bron357]

Destruction / exhaustion of Planet Earth is real and ongoing.
Unfortunately the obvious impacts take longer than the “life” of any particular political or Industry figure / group and consequently the issue is ignored or handled with a token effort.
No company “to save the planet” wants/ can spend shareholders money and provide LESS profit or return on investment and remain viable.
No individual willingly wants to pay more taxes, more money for electricity, oil or gas and face or accept restrictions or lack of access to the foods, items and technology and certainly no Political party would be elected based on such ideology.
Would you pay 3 times more for “carbon neutral” electricity, gas, food or electronics?
Would you accept restrictions on the use of your car, your ability to travel? Restrictions on the quantity and acquisition of clothes you wear, limitations on the type and origin of food you eat ?
While we enjoy the modern luxuries of life there is a cost.
While you enjoy your processed foods ie ice cream, cereal, chocolate, elsewhere in the world vast quantity of natural forest are being converted to Palm oil production.
When you buy half a dozen new cotton t shits in this years fashion colours, elsewhere in the world cotton plants are guzzling huge quantities of water to grow.
Humans are rabid consumers of resources and if we have money our ability to consume knows no bounds.
We will buy the latest model iPhone because “look it comes in rose gold” even though last years phone works perfectly.
We will buy a new TV, the new one is bigger, has more pixels, is new.
We will remodel our kitchen, the marble bench tops are looking dated, the stainless steel appliances aren’t so shiny and polished concrete is in and “look, we can get a new stove in Matt black to match the new Fridge, microwave, kettle and toaster”.
We will have 2 or 3 or more cars and drive them where we want when we want, sometimes for little or no reason, often with just one occupant.
We eat fruits and vegetables “out of season” and “imported” and we eat seafood even though we live 200kms away from the ocean.
Most food we buy comes packaged be it in plastic, foam, cardboard creating huge waste. Recycle you say?
Fine theory, the problem is humans are slack arses, they put non recyclable items in the recycling bin. So while it’s a “feel good” attempt by the local Waste Authority the reality is it doesn’t get recycled. It gets dumped. Dumped to the tune of millions of tonnes every year.
A local coffee shop introduced $1 off takeaway coffee if you bring your own cup. Save money and save on waste. It was widely accepted the first week, after a month less than half the customers we’re still bringing in their own cup and six months later theres only a handful of customers still bothering to bring their own cup.
We only have ourselves to blame.

 

[Dancing Fire]

IMO, Anybody who believes they can change the course of mother nature is full of bull!. Mother nature will do what she's gonna do.

First it was ( Al Gore) Mr. global warming himself, then about 10 yrs ago in the midwest people froze to death, so let's call it climate change to be safe. Yes I believe in climate change. The temp. changes around the globe everyday.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

The poor polar bears.

They are the reason I walk everywhere, skip meals and sit around in 38 degrees Celsius Aussie heat in summer.

Hell yes there is climate change and it makes me feel so helpless.

 

[Karl_K]

Climate has been and will continue to change as long as the earth exists.
Humans have been adapting and will continue to adapt to it.
Anyone who thinks anything on earth stays the same is not very smart.
Everything changes.

 

[OboeGal]

I agree that climate change is a serious existential threat, and regardless of whether or not one believes that the origins are purely natural, man-made, or a combination, it's incumbent that we try to mitigate it's effects.

 

[SandyinAnaheim]

Destruction / exhaustion of Planet Earth is real and ongoing.
Unfortunately the obvious impacts take longer than the “life” of any particular political or Industry figure / group and consequently the issue is ignored or handled with a token effort.
No company “to save the planet” wants/ can spend shareholders money and provide LESS profit or return on investment and remain viable.

This is one of the best posts I've read on PS for a WHILE @Bron357! I agree with your assessment of humans as monstrous consumers. The only thing you left out is the disastrous impact on animals.

 

[Karl_K]

I agree that climate change is a serious existential threat, and regardless of whether or not one believes that the origins are purely natural, man-made, or a combination, it's incumbent that we try to mitigate it's effects.

better off adapting to the changes than wasting time screaming about them.

 

[SandyinAnaheim]

better off adopting to the changes than wasting time screaming about them.

@Karl_K I can't adapt to your use of the word adopt.

 

[Karl_K]

@Karl_K I can't adapt to your use of the word adopt.

2 poins 2 u feig better tan speeelchck

 

[SandyinAnaheim]

2 poins 2 u feig better tan speeelchck

Can you please translate from Klingon to English?

 

[Karl_K]

Can you please translate from Klingon to English?

its stormish
Two points to you being better than spell check.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

humams are not going to be around for ever
its just the way evolution works
i just hope the crocodiles and the alligators manage to outlive us

 

[OboeGal]

better off adapting to the changes than wasting time screaming about them.

Black-and-white thinking.

It's not either/or; we can, and should, do both. We likely cannot completely mitigate all the effects, so some adaptation will be necessary, but that doesn't mean we don't owe it to one another, and to all the other animal and plant species to whom this planet belongs as much as it does to us, to mitigate as best we can. I simply cannot, and will not, be so cavalier about the loss of millions of human lives, billions of lives of other animal species, and extinction of multiple species.

The only argument against the effort to mitigate some of the effects is based purely on utter selfishness - humans not wanting to delay the slightest bit of gratification or endure the tiniest bit of expense or inconvenience for the sake of millions of lives, as @Bron357 so eloquently described. That is a sociopathic world view that I will never, ever embrace. Not when it comes to the pandemic, not when it comes to climate change. If that's "tilting at windmills" - so be it.

 

[kenny]

Climate has been and will continue to change as long as the earth exists.
Humans have been adapting and will continue to adapt to it.
Anyone who thinks anything on earth stays the same is not very smart.
Everything changes.

Karl Karl Karl, I love you dearly, but please pull your head out of the sand.

No liberal, even this sinful homosexual atheist off the map liberal, thinks the ice age was caused by humans.
I don't mean this unkindly, but, uhm, like, Duh!

In addition to obvious ancient and continuing natural climate change, humans (since the industrial revolution) have been making life better for themselves, which unfortunately pumps more and more CO2 into the atmosphere - which is finally recognized (not by righties or rightie preachers, but by legitimate scientists) as NOT making life better for humans, nor for all the other unfortunate life forms on earth.

We're killing off are polar bears, coral reefs, humans on low-elevation Pacific islands because of rising sea levels from melting glaciers, etc. etc. etc.
All this is no fun to hear about, yet true.

 

[Karl_K]

Kenny Kenny Kenny I love you two but anyone saying they are fighting climate change is like fingers on a chalkboard it is not logical its its like divide by 0.

Now if you want to talk about working to clean up the environment then we have some common ground.
That includes investments in technology to help the co2 issue which while I think its blown out of proportion but could use some work in the long term.
Then you have the scammers like the cap and trade crowd, its just another tax on producers by the leaches who suck on the blood of the working class.

But saying fighting climate change is still not logical!

night night to all :} bad day today and meds are kicken in.
cya tomorrow.

 

[jordyonbass]

I don't deny it's happening, I've seen migratory paths for temperate and tropical species extend further to the south here in Australia. There's obviously a reason for this.

I'm a bit of a pessimist on the topic to be honest; to me it's not whether or not we are causing climate change, as the end destination is what matters more and not the kind of train that's taking us there.
It's whether we can do anything about it as a species that won't cause mass civil unrest and suffering, I don't know if we could do that. I've become a much more optimistic person about life in general but there's still some areas where I just look at the situation and I'm like

 

[kenny]

The most effective thing we can do to slow down (and hopefully reduce climate change) is have no, or fewer, kids.

All of us.
From the poorest of us to the richest.
From the highest IQ of us to the lowest.
From the wealthiest countries to the poorest countries.

Every additional human consumes more of the planet.

Stop reproducing folks!
Your child is not special because you're so special.
I am, you are, and your kids are why global warming is accelerating.
Mass suicided and not reproducing is the only solution to prevent the death our planet.
Yeah, it's unpopular to say what is true.
But since early childhood I've not been a part of this ubiquitous popularity contest.
Why start now?

 

[GliderPoss]

This is an interesting topic in which I'm still constantly learning more about.

I do know my mum told me when she was a kid there was some genuine panic as reputable scientists assured everyone the "next ice age was about to happen!" so in their lifetime my parents have seen the pendulum swing both ways, they are perhaps understandably rather sceptical about it all now...

Personally I think there is climate change, however it's a combination of natural earth cycles PLUS human activity (since industrialisation). We are perhaps not solely to blame however we can choose to be the remedy. The problem as @Bron357 so eloquently described is essentially it's not inducement enough on a grand scale to change things, particularly in our capitalist society when coin is king. For example I think "carbon credits" scheme is an utter joke and simply lining someone else's pockets. As many have pointed out - it's almost matter of faith (ie. believing something not immediately apparent) so difficult to rationalise paying a heavy price for a future result.

I also think it is very difficult to expect developing countries/societies to simply care as much as we do. Let me explain - if you are missing the basics in life (clean water, shelter, food, sanitation etc) then you will do ANYTHING to survive, anything for your family. Do you care about your rubbish, your carbon emissions, your fossil fuel usage? Nope. Until we bring ALL countries up to our privileged level we will struggle to make a serious difference in the world. We would be better to invest our money into developing & improving technology to:

• assist those in poverty reach a higher standard of living
• new more economic modes of transport
• cleaner factories worldwide with higher standards
• better ways to store & transfer green energy such as solar
• improved recycling of all products

I feel sad that our public focus has drifted from keeping our oceans clean, reducing deforestation, less environmental pollution etc - these are still really important issues that make a tangible difference to our world!

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

The most effective thing we can do to slow down (and hopefully reduce climate change) is have no, or fewer, kids.

All of us.
From the poorest of us to the richest.
From the highest IQ of us to the lowest.
From the wealthiest countries to the poorest countries.

Every additional human consumes more of the planet.

Stop reproducing folks!
Your child is not special because you're so special.
I am, you are, and your kids are why global warming is accelerating.
Mass suicided and not reproducing is the only solution to prevent the death our planet.
Yeah, it's unpopular to say what is true.
But since early childhood I've not been a part of this ubiquitous popularity contest.
Why start now?

this Childless hardened (well a bit soft really) conservative agrees with you 100%
had a bit of a falling out with my sister when she was pregnent
everdently i was the only one who was negative

 

[voce]

The most effective thing we can do to slow down (and hopefully reduce climate change) is have no, or fewer, kids.

All of us.
From the poorest of us to the richest.
From the highest IQ of us to the lowest.
From the wealthiest countries to the poorest countries.

Every additional human consumes more of the planet.

Stop reproducing folks!
Your child is not special because you're so special.
I am, you are, and your kids are why global warming is accelerating.

OMG Kenny I'm so with you on this one! Overpopulation is the root cause. And who are the ones who are having the most children? Poor, uneducated people who don't get birth control and religious fanatics who procreate because God told them to "be fruitful and multiply". The human population situation has changed so drastically in the past 150-200 years that that message just seems unwise.

Well, reducing the human population by any means after they're already born is considered cruel. We have to try and prevent it before they're born.

This is not to say I'm not having babies of my own. However, I'm not planning for any more than 2 children to replace me and my SO. I know my parents would love grandkids, so one or two would suffice, no more than that. Besides, I need some person to pass my heirloom bling to. The only freaking way I'd have more than 2 is if I somehow accidentally have twins, on my second pregnancy.

 

[partgypsy]

I voted climate change is real, and we need to do something, yesterday about it. It's all well and good to say "adapt" but forone the change (both in lossof forestation ecosystems, and climate by latitude) is too rapid for many many animals to adapt to. They may not be able to go further north or highter latitude. Or in the case of coral reefs and all shell bearing animals the entire ocean is getting too warm and acidic for them to survive. Many places, possibly in evolutionary history animals have been able to migrate to mitigate. That's no longer possible because their living environments are getting smaller and more fragmented, and they themselves may be actively hunted/poached. For those who are against immigration, they should be the largest group working to combat climate change. The poor in many countries are going to be disproportionately affected by climate change. The DOD white papers stress that conflict over resources as well as disruptions and increased refugees are going to be increased by climate change. That's why Trump's cavelier changes to both increase greenhouse gasses (deregulation and stripping of EPA laws, as well as actively ignoring methane and other leaks, is completely irresponsible. What he is doing is like setting fire to people's homes and telling them they cant leave to save themselves. I feel very pessimistic that anything will be done. I feel terrible for my kids, because of what world they will be inheriting.

 

[PreRaphaelite]

 

[OoohShiny]

I remain sceptical of the anthropogenic global warming / CO2 science.


There appears to be evidence that the historical temperature records are being 'adjusted' to make sure that warming looks like it is happening:

Highest U.S. Temperatures on Record by State - Electroverse

The raw data speaks for itself -- the United States was hotter in the past. "They" can fudge the charts, but they can't alter the record books.

electroverse.net

And we seem to be experiencing much greater extremes of weather, both hot and cold, which would tie in with the meridional jetstream theory put forward by those advocating the sun is driving any changes to climate:
https://electroverse.net/the-changing-jet-stream-and-global-cooling/

(I will await accusations of electroverse being a 'crank' site )


There is so much riding on CO2 / global warming (taxation, government policy, apparently-desired societal change, etc.) that an open, unbiased discussion seems impossible.


Whatever the truth, it would seem accurate to say that we humans are consuming energy and materials faster than the rate at which they are being captured / laid down, and there's only so long you can use a battery for (which the earth basically is) before it runs out.

The fact is that massive global depopulation is the only real solution to the current material and energy consumption issues - and, strangely, people pushing the green agenda seem reluctant to discuss that...



EDIT: If you'll excuse the Daily Star link :

July could be coldest in 32 years as Britain suffers 'payback summer'

This summer could be a "reality check" after years of unusually scorching weather, forecasters claim, with temperatures struggling to reach even average July highs of 24C in Britain

www.dailystar.co.uk

July could be one of the coldest on record as rainy weather returns

After a record-breaking spring, June and July have not lived up to expectations.

metro.co.uk

2020 = coolest July since 1988 / 1888 (haven't seen an update on the story to confirm)
2019 = record highs of 38+ degrees, but wettest June for 89 years
2018 = hottest summer on record

Extremes in either direction suggest that 'global warming' (a constant, inescapable increase in temperature) is not the case.

 

[voce]

The fact is that massive global depopulation is the only real solution to the current material and energy consumption issues - and, strangely, people pushing the green agenda seem reluctant to discuss that...

I think that human reproduction NEEDS to be discussed along with the green agenda, but this seems to be a touchy subject for too many due to religion. The truth of the matter is that reducing reproductive rates has to happen by having people change their minds, AKA education. But with education costing so much in the developed world, and too many people having too many kids even in the USA, can we really solve this global problem?

I, too, am pessimistic about doing enough to slow down climate change. People are stubborn and set in their ways. I can only hope that the scientists will work on this and come up with some miracle to drastically reduce our carbon emissions. I'm not necessarily against the environmental engineering the Chinese are trying out in the Gobi desert to prevent soil erosion by wind. I don't know what the solution would be for the wildfires we have had in California and Australia.

 

[qubitasaurus]

The real problem is that it is one of those highly nonlinear dynamical systems. In these things when youre in a particular part of the phase space, you have a solution. You perturb the system and move yourself into a different part of the phase space. This new part of the phase space is associated with different solutions -- perhaps wirh radically different behaviour. However the way the dynamical system works you can not just reset your conditions and think you'll get your old solution back. It just does not work like that -- youre in a different part of the phase space now. You wont get your old climate back even if you were to stop doing all the things which caused the change.
Its just how highly nonlinear dynamical system work. Im too tired to make sense any more but it wont be possible to back track -- that is not how the mathematics of these systems works.