A different sort of shooting...

[bebe]

Wow, surprising to find other shooters here on PS ! who knew!

TooPatient, thanks for telling me about this thread. Everything you wrote in your above post was exactly what I learned in my concealed handgun class this past weekend. (and more, thanks) Basically, do what you have to do. But something else our instructor warned the class about was even if you are cleared (if you shoot someone) many times the family or person you shot will file a civil suit against you.
Considering all this it makes you wonder if you really want to carry a weapon. But ya know, I'd rather be sued than hurt or worse.

I bought a .380 Ruger LCP, but honestly the kick is just too much. But if I only have to shoot it and make those 1 or 2 shots counts, then
I don't really care about the kick. But I want to practice with it, but it's just too much. I took my class with a 9mm and did well with that. But that's too large to carry, but not too large to keep in my car...

 

[kelpie]

I shoot a 9x18 parabellum makarov knockoff pistol that was $115 new. I shot a raccoon out of a tree at night that was attacking my chickens on the second shot. The funny thing is I work with a lot of active duty military guys and they said, "Girl, it's ONE shot ONE kill" like my feat was not impressive.

I have my eye on an 9mm hk p2000sk. It's the perfect fit for my small hands and a heck of a lot more comfortable to shoot than the makarov KO. Plus ammo is cheap and available which is something to consider when choosing a weapon. You want to be able to afford to practice on it.

 

[movie zombie]

everything Too Patient posted is what i've also read....repeatedly. Ayoob is "the man" re all things gunny.

MoZo

 

[TooPatient]

Wow, surprising to find other shooters here on PS ! who knew!

TooPatient, thanks for telling me about this thread. Everything you wrote in your above post was exactly what I learned in my concealed handgun class this past weekend. (and more, thanks) Basically, do what you have to do. But something else our instructor warned the class about was even if you are cleared (if you shoot someone) many times the family or person you shot will file a civil suit against you.
Considering all this it makes you wonder if you really want to carry a weapon. But ya know, I'd rather be sued than hurt or worse.

I bought a .380 Ruger LCP, but honestly the kick is just too much. But if I only have to shoot it and make those 1 or 2 shots counts, then
I don't really care about the kick. But I want to practice with it, but it's just too much. I took my class with a 9mm and did well with that. But that's too large to carry, but not too large to keep in my car...

Look at The Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network. This was started by Marty & Gila Hayes and Massad Ayoob is closely connected with it too. I'm not a member yet but will be joining shortly. They've got connections with attorney's who are experienced with self defense shootings and will even cover different legal expenses for you if something happens and they'll act as (Marty Hayes and I think even Ayoob) expert witnesses for you too.

I agree with you -- doesn't matter what legal mess happens after the fact, I'd rather deal with attorneys than be dead (or have dead SO, or be raped...)


Recoil is a challenge. Especially on stuff small enough to conceal.
Have you considered getting a 9mm to carry and using something like Corbon ammo? (I've talked with different guys at the range and gun shop and with the special order ammo you can get, the 9mm can still stop a person)

I've shot the Springfield XD9 (full size -- they make a nice conceal size too) and it shot really well. It was one of my top two picks for my concealed handgun.
If you don't mind buying without trying (or if you're close enough to come try mine), the CZ 2075 RAMI is a wonderful compromise -- the size is small enough to conceal easily but large enough to make recoil better than others of that size (especially if you don't mind the extra few ounces and select their steel frame instead of their polymer). (mine is 40 S&W but they make a 9mm)

 

[TooPatient]

I shoot a 9x18 parabellum makarov knockoff pistol that was $115 new. I shot a raccoon out of a tree at night that was attacking my chickens on the second shot. The funny thing is I work with a lot of active duty military guys and they said, "Girl, it's ONE shot ONE kill" like my feat was not impressive.

I have my eye on an 9mm hk p2000sk. It's the perfect fit for my small hands and a heck of a lot more comfortable to shoot than the makarov KO. Plus ammo is cheap and available which is something to consider when choosing a weapon. You want to be able to afford to practice on it.

Guys....
Well, I'm impressed anyway. A moving target at night in two shots is pretty impressive.

Have you tried the HK? I've read good things about them.

 

[Arcadian]

S&W 1911. .45 caliber.
Khar .40
S&W M&P .40 compact & 9 fullsized

Both of us shoot on a regular basis. He's typically all 1911 all the time. (he's not allowed to use mine)

He also has an AR-15. We do IDPA, he more than me since I travel so much. I do have a carry license in a few states as does he.


-A

 

[kelpie]

Guys....
Well, I'm impressed anyway. A moving target at night in two shots is pretty impressive.

Have you tried the HK? I've read good things about them.

Thanks! I handled and rented a few other subcompacts before I stumbled on that one and had a Goldilocks moment. We're fortunate to have a ton of good ranges in my area so I was so happy to find one to rent in 9mm. I love everything except I want the mag release to stick out a bit more, I'd probably have that adjusted by a gunsmith. My fiance insisted to really operate a gun well I needed to be able to everything with one hand and it's the only one that fits that bill, just need a little more leverage for a one handed mag release (not that I actually use one hand IRL).

 

[movie zombie]

another pricescope get together i envision: all at the range with our pistols and bling

MoZo

 

[ksinger]

Hey, did anyone read this article? I'm not sure how I feel about Arizona's laws BUT it was more interesting from the standpoint of the divide between east and west, or more properly I think, extreme urban, versus rural-esque mindsets when it comes to guns.

How many of you guys live in, or are originally from, a western state? I'm curious.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/17/AR2010081705427.html?hpid=topnews

I haven't shot anything in donkeys' years. But I have in the past, since the hubs was in the gun biz for 15 years. He really needs to take us to the range....

Gotta fly guys!

 

[TooPatient]

another pricescope get together i envision: all at the range with our pistols and bling

MoZo

That would be THE BEST!

Shooting and diamonds.... what could be better?

 

[TooPatient]

Hey, did anyone read this article? I'm not sure how I feel about Arizona's laws BUT it was more interesting from the standpoint of the divide between east and west, or more properly I think, extreme urban, versus rural-esque mindsets when it comes to guns.

How many of you guys live in, or are originally from, a western state? I'm curious.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/17/AR2010081705427.html?hpid=topnews

I haven't shot anything in donkeys' years. But I have in the past, since the hubs was in the gun biz for 15 years. He really needs to take us to the range....

Gotta fly guys!

Hadn't seen it. Thanks for posting. It is interesting how different the different sections of the country are.

I'm in Washington state. Born here and never lived anywhere else. I started out up in Snohomish county and am now living in King County. My grandfather has guns (and has as long as I can remember) but the first time I ever shot a gun was earlier this year. My mother is VERY uncomfortable with guns so I didn't get the chance when I was younger.

It is interesting how the different arewa within Washington state have different views too. Some counties are very gun friendly and most people have guns and many carry. Others (like King County) are a lot less friendly to the idea.

 

[bebe]

PS bling and shooting.....

I remove all rings, bracelets and watches when shooting
and earrings since my hoops interfere with ear protection

Question - anyone use a laser ?? Wondering if I put a laser on my little Ruger
if that might make it a little more user friendly (and accurate)

 

[movie zombie]

i admit to only wearing my spess and wedding band when at the range.........the right hand rings interfer with my grip.

no laser but had at one point thought of putting one on my s&w model 60 snubbie..... i've read pros and cons regarding having one....a con is that in a self-defense situation the attacker can track back to you via that laser light. however, i think that at that point one has more problems than a mere one-on-one self-defense situation.

MoZo

 

[perry]

To answer ksinger's question.

I grew up on Wisconsin - in a small city. I grew up with guns in the house for hunting and target practice (not to mention potential self defense). Our high school had a hunters safety class every year. Local shooting teams existed.

I could take a 22 rifle (or a pistol) on my bicycle and head out of town to one of the shooting ranges - and the cops would wave "hi" at me.

As far as a shooting get-together: That'd be great. I fear that we may be too spread out. How many are in the reasonable driving distance of Wisconsin? Or are any other locations possible (I know we could always do a trip to one of the shooting spots out west - there are several near Las Vegas - but that would be a much more expensive trip than just a get-together).

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[perry]

Regarding lasers.

I considered them strongly for my pistols. But it turns out there are some reliability issues as well. When they work they are great - but if they don't work you may not have a great backup. I also don't like the concept of having to remember to turn them on/off - as if a person is really going to remember to do that in a real life event (and I've got some experience in how much you can forget when you think you are under deadly attack - and how quickly 6 months of twice a day training goes out the window - which is the key reason I have Glocks).

In the end I settled for "Big Dot" night sights - which work well at night even if I don't have my glasses on (the three dot systems are confusing without my glasses on). All something to keep in mind as we get older and our eyesight changes.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[ksinger]

Well, for the record, I'm in Oklahoma, and as one might expect, guns are no big deal here. I didn't strictly grow up around them, but I was shooting by the time I was 18, thanks to the DH (then the boyfriend). I'm not an aficionado by any stretch, but I'm not against, and I'm not afraid of them either. I know so many people act as if they will leap off a table and shoot themselves, or explode if you touch them. Like any tool, you need to know how to use them safely and respect what they're capable of.

Anyway, I thought it was a good article. DH and I talk about it (the attitudes about guns) from time to time, and that article kinda tied in with some we've had in the past.

 

[movie zombie]

born and raised in california. dad was a hunter and i accompanied him when quite young....duck hunting by day, frogging by night kind of trips. i was given a .22 bolt action rifle at age 8. really wasn't that into it and never shot a living thing.

i'm not too worried about night vision and the need for a lazer as we have night lights everywhere and many windows none of which are draped or covered so there is a lot of light in the house at night.

MoZo

 

[TooPatient]

i admit to only wearing my spess and wedding band when at the range.........the right hand rings interfer with my grip.

no laser but had at one point thought of putting one on my s&w model 60 snubbie..... i've read pros and cons regarding having one....a con is that in a self-defense situation the attacker can track back to you via that laser light. however, i think that at that point one has more problems than a mere one-on-one self-defense situation.

MoZo

This is one of the major reasons I don't use one. In a one-on-one you MAY be able to have the advantage if you can see clearly enough to aim at the intruder (or attacker) and then turn the laser on before they see you, but if you are looking for them with the laser on or if they shift out of the line of the laser (since it is a pretty good give away about where the bullet is going) then you're in trouble. Another issue is that a lot of home invasions (and attacks for that matter) are more than one person. Even if you're able to stop one by using the laser, the 2nd guy would know EXACTLY where you are and, again, you'd be in trouble.

And, as Perry pointed out, they have reliability issues. (I saw a couple at my training class and they didn't do too well with accuracy -- and the instructors suggested against them)


One of mine has tritium night sights (the little glow in the dark sort of 3 dot sight) and the other has something similar.
I know that these are going to be accurate (as I train with them at the range) and reliable (no dead battery, no out-of-adjustment, etc).

 

[bebe]

thanks for the laser info
I know there are pros and cons for sure.

 

[movie zombie]

any one besides me see the thread titled TMJ and think total metal jacket?! geez, i'm over due to go to the range!

MoZo

 

[perry]

i'm not too worried about night vision and the need for a lazer as we have night lights everywhere and many windows none of which are draped or covered so there is a lot of light in the house at night.

MoZo

I think you will find that normal sights do not work well during dim light situations; also what are you going to do if power is out in the area - and an intruder enters the house (assume some moonlight so you can at least see that they are there)

Tritium night sights work wonders.

I like the Big Dot system for two key reasons: 1) Its a 2 dot system (actually a bar and a dot). A number of people have made mistakes when not totally alert with 3 dot systems (and if you get woken at night you may not be instantly fully mentally alert due to overtired, illness, drugs and alcohol, etc). They have aimed well to the side as they put the front sight dot outside of the back two dots. Its not possible to make that mistake with the Big Dot system. 2) The front sight was designed and tested to work in low light (but not dark) situations; where most normal sights fail badly.

A 3rd reason is that people who need glasses or contacts do much better with a 2 dot system than a 3 dot system if they are not wearing their glasses and contacts.

The one negative is that it is not a precision target sight. But you can easily place within an inch or two a shot within 20 - 25 ft quickly (plus whatever jerk you add by poor training or stress reactions). That's plenty good for 99% of self defense situations.

I can personally verify that 2 of those advantages clearly exist, and that it is not a precision target sight.

any one besides me see the thread titled TMJ and think total metal jacket?! geez, i'm over due to go to the range!

MoZo

Nope.... as its FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) not Total anything...

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[Karl_K]

any one besides me see the thread titled TMJ and think total metal jacket?! geez, i'm over due to go to the range!

MoZo

lol yes!

Perry:
http://www.federalpremium.com/hunters_education/handgun_bullet_details.aspx
Scroll down, they have been on the market for a long time.
It has became somewhat generic in use on other bullets as some ranges are requiring "tmj" to help keep lead in the air down.
Some are even requiring lead free primers and bullets but that raises the cost a lot so not all do.

 

[movie zombie]

i'm so glad it wasn't just me, Karl!!!!

Perry, re the light at night. someone will have to disable the commercial grade generator for us to be w/o night lights. and when i say we have windows.....i'm talking walls of windows....so, yes, 9 out of 10 times light would not be an issue.

living in California means that self-defense is the only acceptable reason for firing a gun during a break-in, robbery, etc....and self-defense is hard to claim at more than 7 yards in California. additionally, in California one has the obligation to try and leave the scene of the crime in progress. it is equally important to have an exit route and use it rather than to fire one's gun. now if i was in Texas, well, partner, it would be a whole 'nother shootin' scenario. every gun owner needs to know the ins and outs of the laws concerning self-defense for his/her own state!

there is always "more" that one can do to be prepared for a self-defense situation....or SHTF situation, for that matter.

MoZo

 

[monarch64]

Gosh. I'm shaking my head over how much you all are willing to reveal about your marksmanship skills as well as the firearms in your homes. Really???

I don't give this sort of thing away, myself, whether it's in the pseudo-safety of an online forum or amongst friends in real life. No one will ever know anything involving my marksmanship skills, lack thereof, or weapons. My apologies if this seems condescending, I'm sure it does, but really? Y'all seem to be revealing some of your vulnerable bits? Maybe I'm wrong--please feel free to correct me.

 

[Tuckins1]

another pricescope get together i envision: all at the range with our pistols and bling

MoZo

I second the motion!!

 

[Tuckins1]

Gosh. I'm shaking my head over how much you all are willing to reveal about your marksmanship skills as well as the firearms in your homes. Really???

I don't give this sort of thing away, myself, whether it's in the pseudo-safety of an online forum or amongst friends in real life. No one will ever know anything involving my marksmanship skills, lack thereof, or weapons. My apologies if this seems condescending, I'm sure it does, but really? Y'all seem to be revealing some of your vulnerable bits? Maybe I'm wrong--please feel free to correct me.

Vulnerable bits? I'm not sure I follow.... Is a complete stranger going to track me down from some random diamond forum and break into my house- when i've just said that we are avid shooters with loads of firearms on hand? He wouldn't make it 2 steps through the door....

 

[perry]

i'm so glad it wasn't just me, Karl!!!!

Perry, re the light at night. someone will have to disable the commercial grade generator for us to be w/o night lights.


there is always "more" that one can do to be prepared for a self-defense situation....or SHTF situation, for that matter.

MoZo

I tend to find that electrical/mechanical things break down at the worst time.... (and it seems that when there are power outages here and there it is fairly common for the emergency generators to not auto-start after a few years. Usually, in most cases it can be started - but only with personal intervention).

So in response to your second statement I quoted: I plan for there to be no electricity for when I may need to use a weapon in self defense. Its a bonus if there is electricity and everything works how we think it will.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[perry]

Gosh. I'm shaking my head over how much you all are willing to reveal about your marksmanship skills as well as the firearms in your homes. Really???

I don't give this sort of thing away, myself, whether it's in the pseudo-safety of an online forum or amongst friends in real life. No one will ever know anything involving my marksmanship skills, lack thereof, or weapons. My apologies if this seems condescending, I'm sure it does, but really? Y'all seem to be revealing some of your vulnerable bits? Maybe I'm wrong--please feel free to correct me.

Monarch:

33% of households have cats

39% of households have dogs

An estimated 50% of households have guns (while formal studies typically report 35 - 42%, a number of researchers believe that people are under-reporting their gun ownership in the studies - and there are even studies on why that is occurring).

So why would it be unusual for people to admit on a forum that they have guns?

As far as how vulnerable that makes us... Most criminal intentionally avoid people who are known to be ready to use weapons in self defense. There is a group of criminals who intentionally pick on people who are known to be unarmed.

Now I don't go around telling people specifically that I am looking to shoot someone in self defense - nor the details of what guns I have and where they are; but, anyone who knows me well knows that I survived a nasty situation which involved my ownership of at least one pistol for self defense, that I grew up with guns, and that I do believe that people have the right to defend themselves with guns. It is also known that I do target shooting (and I like to go with other people). I figure that makes me less of a target for someone planning a crime against me personally. It does not protect against the fairly random concept that some stranger will select you as their target on short notice without knowing anything about you.

If someone really wishes to burgle my house - I'd rather have them do it when I'm not here (my TV, Computer, etc are replaceable).

Also, as far as what we are revealing on this site - and how pertinent that is to ourselves and our personal safety. I am not going to claim that we are really that protected on these forums. I believe that if someone wishes to put forth the time and effort that they can in fact identify who we really are. But, I'd like anyone putting forth that much effort to have a clue what they might be facing... and review of my older post will show that that I've already dealt with one wacko in my life who was personally targeting me (and thus might be more ready than the average person to deal with another).

Of course, nothing can protect us from a well executed professional level plan - except a high level personal security force (which most of us cannot ever think of affording or needing). I figure being targeted by with that level of planning is so remote that I don't worry about it.

As a conclusion; Monarch, maybe by hiding what you have (or do not have) you are actually making yourself more likely to be targeted.

In the end there is an old truism: The best defense is having a good offense. In the realm of personal protection - its more of a projected attitude than anything else. Criminals (and non criminals) can read people quite easily - and they generally avoid people who have a confident demeanor about themselves.

Personal to you Monarch: I'm more than willing to hold a confidential discussion between us elsewhere.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[movie zombie]

well, i go out of my way to NOT reveal too much re just what i have or don't have. i'm willing to share bits and pieces. those bits and pieces do not add up to the whole picture. actually, i'm more surprised re the intimate details of peoples lives that get revealed here at pricescope. and while it is legal to shoot on our property, i don't. part of the reason is that i don't want to "advertise" what is at my disposal.

MoZo

ps i'd be more concerned about being tracked down as a target of theft for our diamonds and color stone gem collections.

 

[TooPatient]

Gosh. I'm shaking my head over how much you all are willing to reveal about your marksmanship skills as well as the firearms in your homes. Really???

I don't give this sort of thing away, myself, whether it's in the pseudo-safety of an online forum or amongst friends in real life. No one will ever know anything involving my marksmanship skills, lack thereof, or weapons. My apologies if this seems condescending, I'm sure it does, but really? Y'all seem to be revealing some of your vulnerable bits? Maybe I'm wrong--please feel free to correct me.

I'm rather careful to not give full details about anything. As for training classes I have taken (or will take), information I've gotten from speakers that I feel are well qualified, or my experiences with (liking, not liking, why) different handguns/rifles ---- well, I like the people here on PS and (at least in my area) there aren't enough people running around talking about this sort of thing. If I know any information that may be helpful to another PSer, I'm quite happy to share it. I hope none of us ever has to use this information for anything other than paper targets at a range, but I'd feel awful if something happened and a little piece of information I chose not to share could have made a difference for that PSer.


We had a person "collecting money donations" on Friday in our neighborhood. He spent 3+ hours wandering around, mostly looking in windows and yards of houses that appeared empty.....
I made sure that one of the neighbors who was gone knew what was happening. It could be nothing, but then again it might be something ---- and I'm pretty sure he didn't track me down through PS ---- this happens all over the place and we all need to work together to get the needed information around so we can know what to do if we are forced to act to protect ourselves.