2014 Health Insurance Premiums - Ouch!

[msop04]

And as you cast doubt and challenge others to provide their sources, please provide your sources that reference what programs "this administration" (the executive branch, really??) is using to give away cell phones.

ksinger, I was not casting doubt. If you took the time to read my post you would see that I was asking for more info -- "correct me if I'm wrong" -- which I was not wrong about cell phones, as others have stated it started with land lines. Land line, cell phones... both phones. Another reason why I was asking...

And cell phones are not a basic necessity, to be compared to the likes of electricity or running water. Neither my dad nor my grandparents have ever had one, and they aren't living by subpar standards. They'er all still doing just fine.

How does one call 911 without a phone? Scream "911!" out the window?

They have land lines.

 

[ruby59]

Propaganda is very effective. And the internet is a new vehicle by which to distribute it to the masses.

True dat. And this discussion is saturated with truthiness

Any chance we can start sharing ideas on what a decent health care system would look like and how it would be funded? I can't imagine a scenario that would not include some very difficult choices that we may not be prepared to make as a nation and that wouldn't call for an erosion of some things we believe are our right. Got to head out for an appointment. Don't want to share my perspective until I can be here to respond.

I think it starts with creating a panel to study what is being done successfully in other countries. Then deconstruct the whole damn thing and build it back up, mirroring what others have done. It's quite simple, really.

And that was my point way up there somewhere. I am not against the concept of a health care system, but just do not feel the one that is being implemented now is the way to go. Waiting a year will not hurt us as much as the Government shutdown will. Think of all the people who cannot not only afford healthcare but food and shelter because they are not getting paid.

Just curious, Erica, but do you know of a country where health care seems to be working well? I would like to read up on it.

The concept of a phone did have me thinking of how did people manage in the old days without so called necessities. When my parents got married, they did not have a car, phone, TV, a washer and dryer inside the home. How did they do it?

 

[msop04]

ksinger, I was not casting doubt. If you took the time to read my post you would see that I was asking for more info -- "correct me if I'm wrong" -- which I was not wrong about cell phones, as others have stated it started with land lines. Land line, cell phones... both phones. Another reason why I was asking...

And cell phones are not a basic necessity, to be compared to the likes of electricity or running water. Neither my dad nor my grandparents have ever had one, and they aren't living by subpar standards. They'er all still doing just fine.

Your glibness and shallow approach to cogent challenges of your ideas are overshadowing your intelligence. Your response to ksinger is childish.

I'm sorry you see this as glib... but I can't control how you perceive anything. Cell phones were said to be a basic necessity, and compared to running water and electricity. I don't agree with that. I posted about cell phones being given away, and was under the impression that this was a "new" thing. I even added "correct me if I'm wrong," so that I might be if I was incorrect -- which I was. I don't see cell phones as a necessity like that of electricity and running water. Sorry. <shrugs> I even gave an example of two generations of middle class folks that I know well (my family) who don't use them. Does this mean they don't use a phone? No, my grandma is one of the chattiest little ladies I know, and that phone is attached to her ear!!

They are not a necessity until people feel entitled to have them. This sense of entitlement is exactly what I feel the government has done. And this makes me childish? Really?

 

[ksinger]

Propaganda is very effective. And the internet is a new vehicle by which to distribute it to the masses.

True dat. And this discussion is saturated with truthiness

Any chance we can start sharing ideas on what a decent health care system would look like and how it would be funded? I can't imagine a scenario that would not include some very difficult choices that we may not be prepared to make as a nation and that wouldn't call for an erosion of some things we believe are our right. Got to head out for an appointment. Don't want to share my perspective until I can be here to respond.

I think it starts with creating a panel to study what is being done successfully in other countries. Then deconstruct the whole damn thing and build it back up, mirroring what others have done. It's quite simple, really.

And that was my point way up there somewhere. I am not against the concept of a health care system, but just do not feel the one that is being implemented now is the way to go. Waiting a year will not hurt us as much as the Government shutdown will. Think of all the people who cannot not only afford healthcare but food and shelter because they are not getting paid.

Just curious, Erica, but do you know of a country where health care seems to be working well? I would like to read up on it.

In all seriousness, what would you call working well? Because there is a dizzying array of sites and statistics and scholarly papers (that I and my husband have dug out at one time, may still even have links and saved stuff) that show that the US does comparatively poorly in the ranks of industrialized countries, on almost every kind of healthcare measure you could think of - cost, obesity, infant mortality, overuse of tests, etc. I guess the point is, I'm not sure what everyone is clinging to so hard, because we've got almost nowhere to go but UP on many of those measures.

I would start with a search on "healthcare rankings by country" and go on from there. Many of the results are hotly debated of course, as are what factors are weighted more or less, but at the end of any of them, you will find that the US is not ever even close to top of the heap, no matter how you slice it.

Here's a quickie to start...
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/health-outcomes-report-cards-by-country/

 

[Dancing Fire]

My grandparents fled Poland and the Nazis. They came here with nothing, not even their correct last name. Somehow, on Ellis Island it got shortened, and they accepted it. They could not read or write in their native language, never mind English. They worked hard, lived extremely frugal, (lived in a 3rd floor walk up cold water apartment) but saved every penny they could. My grandfather eventually saved enough to start a small business. My grandmother helped on the weekends and eventually so did the children. Education was a must. Their children studied hard while their parents went to evening classes and eventually became citizens of the US. It has been easier for each generation in our family, but we were all taught to improve upon it as we all made our own way. The hardwork has to start somewhere. And that is the problem. Many people today do not have that same work ethic or are willing to sacrifice cable TV or expensive cellphones. I do not mind helping people, but when are people going to start taking personal responsibility?

I mentioned my son in a previous post. Our state is not recovering as fast as the rest of the country. He did not sit by waiting for someone to hand him anything. He works in a neighboring state which adds an additional 3 hours to his day. So why should he have to subsidize someone who would rather sit back and do nothing?

Wow!! your family history sound exactly like ours expect that my grandfather came from China.

 

[ericad]

Honestly I don't what can be done with this system because there will always be those of us who believe that healthcare is a right for all and those who believe it is the responsibility of the individual.

I want to live in an America where people genuinely care about the well-being of others. Where helping others is not viewed as what's being taken away from my bottom line but as doing what is needed for the greater good because the situation impacts us all whether it comes in the form of more money in taxes or health care premiums being paid, sick employees missing work, or the spread of germs and disease.

When I was in France with my family in the spring, we spent a considerable amount of time with some Parisian friends. We were joking about how they can spot an American from a mile away and I assumed it was because we're so loud (we truly are, lol) and my husband's friend said no, that Americans have a look of fear in their eyes that is unique to us. There's a twitchy air about us that permeates the room, one of a complete and utter inability to be at peace.

This, of course, launched us into a discussion about politics and comparing countries, etc. Our friend works a 35 hour workweek. He gets 6 weeks of paid annual vacation. He has a union to protect his rights. He has universal healthcare and free high quality education, from pre-school through college, for his children. Despite all of this, and the high tax burden placed on France's citizens, he makes a livable wage and lives comfortably. His wife is in remission from breast cancer and received excellent care from start to finish, all for free under their government plan. She received 12 months of maternity leave with each child, and her job was protected. They don't live in constant fear that one stroke of bad luck will bankrupt their family, or that they will die because they can't pay for medical treatment. They don't live in constant fear worrying about the quality of their childrens' education, and they can choose to retire whenever they see fit without needing to work for health insurance. They cannot fathom life in the US, and would not trade what they have for anything in the world, not even for a chance at material wealth (aka, American Dream) because they know that what they have is worth more than any amount of money. Do they feel entitled to everything they have? Sure they do, proudly so, and they won't give up an inch of it. Would you?

Some people would be horrified by the above. It's socialism! It's entitlement! But our friends' happiness and quality of life is the benchmark against which I compare life in the US. It's a high bar, and I don't actually believe that this will ever be possible here unless we completely deconstruct the system and rebuild from scratch, but it's what I dream of nonetheless. I have lofty goals, lol.

 

[ksinger]

ksinger, I was not casting doubt. If you took the time to read my post you would see that I was asking for more info -- "correct me if I'm wrong" -- which I was not wrong about cell phones, as others have stated it started with land lines. Land line, cell phones... both phones. Another reason why I was asking...

And cell phones are not a basic necessity, to be compared to the likes of electricity or running water. Neither my dad nor my grandparents have ever had one, and they aren't living by subpar standards. They'er all still doing just fine.

Your glibness and shallow approach to cogent challenges of your ideas are overshadowing your intelligence. Your response to ksinger is childish.

I'm sorry you see this as glib... but I can't control how you perceive anything. Cell phones were said to be a basic necessity, and compared to running water and electricity. I don't agree with that. I posted about cell phones being given away, and was under the impression that this was a "new" thing. I even added "correct me if I'm wrong," so that I might be if I was incorrect -- which I was. I don't see cell phones as a necessity like that of electricity and running water. Sorry. <shrugs> I even gave an example of two generations of middle class folks that I know well (my family) who don't use them. Does this mean they don't use a phone? No, my grandma is one of the chattiest little ladies I know, and that phone is attached to her ear!!

They are not a necessity until people feel entitled to have them. This sense of entitlement is exactly what I feel the government has done. And this makes me childish? Really?

The point is YOU can verify your own musings with a magical tap of a key. You can actually support your stances when asked to or before having to be asked, with CORRECT and complete info, not with half-truths, because while you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to half-correct or made up facts. Or to ask everyone else to find them for you or "correct you if you're wrong". You can even determine that there is NOT a 28th amendment before you make this history teacher's wife wonder why he bothers every day.

If you are unprepared to back your own stances and do some of your own research, be prepared then, to get "corrected when you're wrong", because I and others on here - as you're finding - only have so much patience with intellectual laziness.

 

[makhro82]

Honestly I don't what can be done with this system because there will always be those of us who believe that healthcare is a right for all and those who believe it is the responsibility of the individual.

I want to live in an America where people genuinely care about the well-being of others. Where helping others is not viewed as what's being taken away from my bottom line but as doing what is needed for the greater good because the situation impacts us all whether it comes in the form of more money in taxes or health care premiums being paid, sick employees missing work, or the spread of germs and disease.

When I was in France with my family in the spring, we spent a considerable amount of time with some Parisian friends. We were joking about how they can spot an American from a mile away and I assumed it was because we're so loud (we truly are, lol) and my husband's friend said no, that Americans have a look of fear in their eyes that is unique to us. There's a twitchy air about us that permeates the room, one of a complete and utter inability to be at peace.

This, of course, launched us into a discussion about politics and comparing countries, etc. Our friend works a 35 hour workweek. He gets 6 weeks of paid annual vacation. He has a union to protect his rights. He has universal healthcare and free high quality education, from pre-school through college, for his children. Despite all of this, and the high tax burden placed on France's citizens, he makes a livable wage and lives comfortably. His wife is in remission from breast cancer and received excellent care from start to finish, all for free under their government plan. She received 12 months of maternity leave with each child, and her job was protected. They don't live in constant fear that one stroke of bad luck will bankrupt their family, or that they will die because they can't pay for medical treatment. They don't live in constant fear worrying about the quality of their childrens' education, and they can choose to retire whenever they see fit without needing to work for health insurance. They cannot fathom life in the US, and would not trade what they have for anything in the world, not even for a chance at material wealth (aka, American Dream) because they know that what they have is worth more than any amount of money. Do they feel entitled to everything they have? Sure they do, proudly so, and they won't give up an inch of it. Would you?

Some people would be horrified by the above. It's socialism! It's entitlement! But our friends' happiness and quality of life is the benchmark against which I compare life in the US. It's a high bar, and I don't actually believe that this will ever be possible here unless we completely deconstruct the system and rebuild from scratch, but it's what I dream of nonetheless. I have lofty goals, lol.

This sounds like heaven to me! Does that mean I'm a socialist? I should've married a Frenchman

 

[recordaras]

People don't understand that Obamacare will hurt many small business.

You know what else hurts many small businesses? Being a business owner who is not able to get insured because of preexisting conditions, among other things. You know what's also really, really bad for small businesses? Not offering health insurance for full-time employees and having them get gravely sick just because you didn't think that health insurance for them was a necessary expenditure.

This is a very interesting thread. The thing that amazes me is how many people are turning it into a "us" vs "them" problem, and not realizing that they are facing the very same threats. Do they really not realize that with the "old" system any of us could end up laid off tomorrow (or dropped from their current insurance plan), and unable to get coverage (or get quoted a ridiculous premium) because of preexisting conditions? It could happen to us, to our neighbors, to our adult children.

 

[ericad]

And as you cast doubt and challenge others to provide their sources, please provide your sources that reference what programs "this administration" (the executive branch, really??) is using to give away cell phones.

ksinger, I was not casting doubt. If you took the time to read my post you would see that I was asking for more info -- "correct me if I'm wrong" -- which I was not wrong about cell phones, as others have stated it started with land lines. Land line, cell phones... both phones. Another reason why I was asking...

And cell phones are not a basic necessity, to be compared to the likes of electricity or running water. Neither my dad nor my grandparents have ever had one, and they aren't living by subpar standards. They'er all still doing just fine.

How does one call 911 without a phone? Scream "911!" out the window?

They have land lines.

Ummmm, no. The phone program is to help subsidize the cost of a land line OR a cell phone.

So you agree that having a working phone is a necessity, then, in order to be able to call emergency services? Well that's exactly what the program provides - assistance with maintaining a working phone, which in this day and age will most often be a mobile phone. I don't know a single person who even keeps a landline, since cell phones are cheaper.

Cell phones are the new landlines.

 

[monarch64]

I'm curious as to whether anyone here on PS has tried to obtain insurance through the new marketplace?

We've been talking about moving to Spain for the past couple years. Their health care is ranked 7th in the world, according to some sources. In the end, I'll just exercise my human right to boycott what goes on in this country and move the hell away.

 

[ericad]

Honestly I don't what can be done with this system because there will always be those of us who believe that healthcare is a right for all and those who believe it is the responsibility of the individual.

I want to live in an America where people genuinely care about the well-being of others. Where helping others is not viewed as what's being taken away from my bottom line but as doing what is needed for the greater good because the situation impacts us all whether it comes in the form of more money in taxes or health care premiums being paid, sick employees missing work, or the spread of germs and disease.

When I was in France with my family in the spring, we spent a considerable amount of time with some Parisian friends. We were joking about how they can spot an American from a mile away and I assumed it was because we're so loud (we truly are, lol) and my husband's friend said no, that Americans have a look of fear in their eyes that is unique to us. There's a twitchy air about us that permeates the room, one of a complete and utter inability to be at peace.

This, of course, launched us into a discussion about politics and comparing countries, etc. Our friend works a 35 hour workweek. He gets 6 weeks of paid annual vacation. He has a union to protect his rights. He has universal healthcare and free high quality education, from pre-school through college, for his children. Despite all of this, and the high tax burden placed on France's citizens, he makes a livable wage and lives comfortably. His wife is in remission from breast cancer and received excellent care from start to finish, all for free under their government plan. She received 12 months of maternity leave with each child, and her job was protected. They don't live in constant fear that one stroke of bad luck will bankrupt their family, or that they will die because they can't pay for medical treatment. They don't live in constant fear worrying about the quality of their childrens' education, and they can choose to retire whenever they see fit without needing to work for health insurance. They cannot fathom life in the US, and would not trade what they have for anything in the world, not even for a chance at material wealth (aka, American Dream) because they know that what they have is worth more than any amount of money. Do they feel entitled to everything they have? Sure they do, proudly so, and they won't give up an inch of it. Would you?

Some people would be horrified by the above. It's socialism! It's entitlement! But our friends' happiness and quality of life is the benchmark against which I compare life in the US. It's a high bar, and I don't actually believe that this will ever be possible here unless we completely deconstruct the system and rebuild from scratch, but it's what I dream of nonetheless. I have lofty goals, lol.

This sounds like heaven to me! Does that mean I'm a socialist? I should've married a Frenchman

It's not too late, makhro! But I have to warn you, the French are a very argumentative people, so get some ear plugs. Know what? They just passed marriage equality in France too, so I'll become French, then I'll dump my hubby and you can marry me, and your hubby can marry my hubby, then we'll move to France and switch back.

Done!

 

[ericad]

I'm curious as to whether anyone here on PS has tried to obtain insurance through the new marketplace?

We've been talking about moving to Spain for the past couple years. Their health care is ranked 7th in the world, according to some sources. In the end, I'll just exercise my human right to boycott what goes on in this country and move the hell away.

I've been trying all week but the site couldn't handle the volume of traffic and kept crashing. I guess a lot of people really want insurance.

 

[makhro82]

People don't understand that Obamacare will hurt many small business.

You know what else hurts many small businesses? Being a business owner who is not able to get insured because of preexisting conditions, among other things. You know what's also really, really bad for small businesses? Not offering health insurance for full-time employees and having them get gravely sick just because you didn't think that health insurance for them was a necessary expenditure.

This is a very interesting thread. The thing that amazes me is how many people are turning it into a "us" vs "them" problem, and not realizing that they are facing the very same threats. Do they really not realize that with the "old" system any of us could end up laid off tomorrow (or dropped from their current insurance plan), and unable to get coverage (or get quoted a ridiculous premium) because of preexisting conditions? It could happen to us, to our neighbors, to our adult children.

This! Or get sick or injured because even with coverage the financial impact can be devastating. Unless you are literally a multi-millionaire you can lose it ALL just like that.

 

[makhro82]

Honestly I don't what can be done with this system because there will always be those of us who believe that healthcare is a right for all and those who believe it is the responsibility of the individual.

I want to live in an America where people genuinely care about the well-being of others. Where helping others is not viewed as what's being taken away from my bottom line but as doing what is needed for the greater good because the situation impacts us all whether it comes in the form of more money in taxes or health care premiums being paid, sick employees missing work, or the spread of germs and disease.

When I was in France with my family in the spring, we spent a considerable amount of time with some Parisian friends. We were joking about how they can spot an American from a mile away and I assumed it was because we're so loud (we truly are, lol) and my husband's friend said no, that Americans have a look of fear in their eyes that is unique to us. There's a twitchy air about us that permeates the room, one of a complete and utter inability to be at peace.

This, of course, launched us into a discussion about politics and comparing countries, etc. Our friend works a 35 hour workweek. He gets 6 weeks of paid annual vacation. He has a union to protect his rights. He has universal healthcare and free high quality education, from pre-school through college, for his children. Despite all of this, and the high tax burden placed on France's citizens, he makes a livable wage and lives comfortably. His wife is in remission from breast cancer and received excellent care from start to finish, all for free under their government plan. She received 12 months of maternity leave with each child, and her job was protected. They don't live in constant fear that one stroke of bad luck will bankrupt their family, or that they will die because they can't pay for medical treatment. They don't live in constant fear worrying about the quality of their childrens' education, and they can choose to retire whenever they see fit without needing to work for health insurance. They cannot fathom life in the US, and would not trade what they have for anything in the world, not even for a chance at material wealth (aka, American Dream) because they know that what they have is worth more than any amount of money. Do they feel entitled to everything they have? Sure they do, proudly so, and they won't give up an inch of it. Would you?

Some people would be horrified by the above. It's socialism! It's entitlement! But our friends' happiness and quality of life is the benchmark against which I compare life in the US. It's a high bar, and I don't actually believe that this will ever be possible here unless we completely deconstruct the system and rebuild from scratch, but it's what I dream of nonetheless. I have lofty goals, lol.

This sounds like heaven to me! Does that mean I'm a socialist? I should've married a Frenchman

It's not too late, makhro! But I have to warn you, the French are a very argumentative people, so get some ear plugs. Know what? They just passed marriage equality in France too, so I'll become French, then I'll dump my hubby and you can marry me, and your hubby can marry my hubby, then we'll move to France and switch back.

Done!

Does that proposal come with a gorgeous OEC? I mean I'd marry you either way and I don't mind a good debate

 

[monarch64]

I'm curious as to whether anyone here on PS has tried to obtain insurance through the new marketplace?

We've been talking about moving to Spain for the past couple years. Their health care is ranked 7th in the world, according to some sources. In the end, I'll just exercise my human right to boycott what goes on in this country and move the hell away.

I've been trying all week but the site couldn't handle the volume of traffic and kept crashing. I guess a lot of people really want insurance.

Same here. In my case, I want to find out if I (SAHM) would be eligible, even if I am eligible and already am covered by my husband's employer. I stated upthread that our premium for a family of three is $400 more than our mortgage payment each month, with my portion of the insurance being the bulk of the payment. I want to find out if we drop me from his policy, would I be eligible to buy insurance through the marketplace. There are SO MANY things I don't understand about the ACA, even after reading through the gov't website many times. I am college educated. I cannot imagine not having an education and being expected to navigate this process. And there is no live help. There is a lot of waiting, and then there is getting cut off, etc.

And of course a lot of people want insurance. They just want it to actually be affordable, like they were promised. I think it's probably hard for some people to wait and not get upset or antsy when their future is so uncertain. I'm talking about those of us whose income is over the federal poverty line and under the $94k cap, who are worried about not being able to bear the burden of higher premiums for any length of time. And I don't mean to be sarcastic towards you, Erica, I am just stressed out and worried over all of this. I want everyone to have health care. Including myself.

We were planning to continue building a health spending account, but any savings that would've gone into that account will now go towards premiums, or penalties. No more choice. And that is what really irks me.

 

[crown1]

Honestly I don't what can be done with this system because there will always be those of us who believe that healthcare is a right for all and those who believe it is the responsibility of the individual.

I want to live in an America where people genuinely care about the well-being of others. Where helping others is not viewed as what's being taken away from my bottom line but as doing what is needed for the greater good because the situation impacts us all whether it comes in the form of more money in taxes or health care premiums being paid, sick employees missing work, or the spread of germs and disease.

When I was in France with my family in the spring, we spent a considerable amount of time with some Parisian friends. We were joking about how they can spot an American from a mile away and I assumed it was because we're so loud (we truly are, lol) and my husband's friend said no, that Americans have a look of fear in their eyes that is unique to us. There's a twitchy air about us that permeates the room, one of a complete and utter inability to be at peace.

This, of course, launched us into a discussion about politics and comparing countries, etc. Our friend works a 35 hour workweek. He gets 6 weeks of paid annual vacation. He has a union to protect his rights. He has universal healthcare and free high quality education, from pre-school through college, for his children. Despite all of this, and the high tax burden placed on France's citizens, he makes a livable wage and lives comfortably. His wife is in remission from breast cancer and received excellent care from start to finish, all for free under their government plan. She received 12 months of maternity leave with each child, and her job was protected. They don't live in constant fear that one stroke of bad luck will bankrupt their family, or that they will die because they can't pay for medical treatment. They don't live in constant fear worrying about the quality of their childrens' education, and they can choose to retire whenever they see fit without needing to work for health insurance. They cannot fathom life in the US, and would not trade what they have for anything in the world, not even for a chance at material wealth (aka, American Dream) because they know that what they have is worth more than any amount of money. Do they feel entitled to everything they have? Sure they do, proudly so, and they won't give up an inch of it. Would you?

Some people would be horrified by the above. It's socialism! It's entitlement! But our friends' happiness and quality of life is the benchmark against which I compare life in the US. It's a high bar, and I don't actually believe that this will ever be possible here unless we completely deconstruct the system and rebuild from scratch, but it's what I dream of nonetheless. I have lofty goals, lol.

This sounds like heaven to me! Does that mean I'm a socialist? I should've married a Frenchman

This is an honest question. I am not being a smart alec. Is there a reason you would not move to France to find these things that you would like to have?

 

[JewelFreak]

ksinger, I was not casting doubt. If you took the time to read my post you would see that I was asking for more info -- "correct me if I'm wrong" -- which I was not wrong about cell phones, as others have stated it started with land lines. Land line, cell phones... both phones. Another reason why I was asking...

And cell phones are not a basic necessity, to be compared to the likes of electricity or running water. Neither my dad nor my grandparents have ever had one, and they aren't living by subpar standards. They'er all still doing just fine.

Your glibness and shallow approach to cogent challenges of your ideas are overshadowing your intelligence. Your response to ksinger is childish.

I'm sorry you see this as glib... but I can't control how you perceive anything. Cell phones were said to be a basic necessity, and compared to running water and electricity. I don't agree with that. I posted about cell phones being given away, and was under the impression that this was a "new" thing. I even added "correct me if I'm wrong," so that I might be if I was incorrect -- which I was. I don't see cell phones as a necessity like that of electricity and running water. Sorry. <shrugs> I even gave an example of two generations of middle class folks that I know well (my family) who don't use them. Does this mean they don't use a phone? No, my grandma is one of the chattiest little ladies I know, and that phone is attached to her ear!!

They are not a necessity until people feel entitled to have them. This sense of entitlement is exactly what I feel the government has done. And this makes me childish? Really?

The point is YOU can verify your own musings with a magical tap of a key. You can actually support your stances when asked to or before having to be asked, with CORRECT and complete info, not with half-truths, because while you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to half-correct or made up facts. Or to ask everyone else to find them for you or "correct you if you're wrong". You can even determine that there is NOT a 28th amendment before you make this history teacher's wife wonder why he bothers every day.

If you are unprepared to back your own stances and do some of your own research, be prepared then, to get "corrected when you're wrong", because I and others on here - as you're finding - only have so much patience with intellectual laziness.

MSOP's general points are solid to me. Might be a surprise to you young'uns that everybody I know has a land line. A cell phone is very convenient but not a necessity. In fact, the world still turned on its axis before the last few years when they were invented! I only use mine when I'm traveling -- frankly, blabbing all day on the phone just doesn't excite me. I'd rather read. Whoever wants to is perfectly free to do so, but damned if I want to pay for theirs. Talk about feeling entitled!

No government, nothing on this earth, can make everything fair & nice & easy for everyone. It's part of what we're here for -- to gain strength, understanding, and tolerance through allowing ALL others the dignity we'd like to have afforded us. Even those with whom we don't see eye to eye.

So, as usual, I'm not looking at this thread again. The tone is getting awfully unpleasant, more like "I'm very tolerant-- of those who agree with me." What a disappointment. Go ahead & flame. I won't be reading it.

--- Laurie

 

[ksinger]

Honestly I don't what can be done with this system because there will always be those of us who believe that healthcare is a right for all and those who believe it is the responsibility of the individual.

I want to live in an America where people genuinely care about the well-being of others. Where helping others is not viewed as what's being taken away from my bottom line but as doing what is needed for the greater good because the situation impacts us all whether it comes in the form of more money in taxes or health care premiums being paid, sick employees missing work, or the spread of germs and disease.

When I was in France with my family in the spring, we spent a considerable amount of time with some Parisian friends. We were joking about how they can spot an American from a mile away and I assumed it was because we're so loud (we truly are, lol) and my husband's friend said no, that Americans have a look of fear in their eyes that is unique to us. There's a twitchy air about us that permeates the room, one of a complete and utter inability to be at peace.

This, of course, launched us into a discussion about politics and comparing countries, etc. Our friend works a 35 hour workweek. He gets 6 weeks of paid annual vacation. He has a union to protect his rights. He has universal healthcare and free high quality education, from pre-school through college, for his children. Despite all of this, and the high tax burden placed on France's citizens, he makes a livable wage and lives comfortably. His wife is in remission from breast cancer and received excellent care from start to finish, all for free under their government plan. She received 12 months of maternity leave with each child, and her job was protected. They don't live in constant fear that one stroke of bad luck will bankrupt their family, or that they will die because they can't pay for medical treatment. They don't live in constant fear worrying about the quality of their childrens' education, and they can choose to retire whenever they see fit without needing to work for health insurance. They cannot fathom life in the US, and would not trade what they have for anything in the world, not even for a chance at material wealth (aka, American Dream) because they know that what they have is worth more than any amount of money. Do they feel entitled to everything they have? Sure they do, proudly so, and they won't give up an inch of it. Would you?

Some people would be horrified by the above. It's socialism! It's entitlement! But our friends' happiness and quality of life is the benchmark against which I compare life in the US. It's a high bar, and I don't actually believe that this will ever be possible here unless we completely deconstruct the system and rebuild from scratch, but it's what I dream of nonetheless. I have lofty goals, lol.

This sounds like heaven to me! Does that mean I'm a socialist? I should've married a Frenchman

It's not too late, makhro! But I have to warn you, the French are a very argumentative people, so get some ear plugs. Know what? They just passed marriage equality in France too, so I'll become French, then I'll dump my hubby and you can marry me, and your hubby can marry my hubby, then we'll move to France and switch back.

Done!

Does that proposal come with a gorgeous OEC? I mean I'd marry you either way and I don't mind a good debate

Whoa there! My husband and I need to come too! He's all hot to go to Paris, he's teaching himself French cooking (yes, of course I adore him) and we could be one big swinging socialist commune thing with great cooks and fabulous jewelry! What do ya think??

ETA: Boy knows how to argue too!! Really well.

 

[recordaras]

This! Or get sick or injured because even with coverage the financial impact can be devastating. Unless you are literally a multi-millionaire you can lose it ALL just like that.

Everyone's so focused on the "darn welfare abusers" that they seem to fail to notice the benefits they personally would get out of the change. Let me quote a little bit of wikipedia here:

- Guaranteed issue prohibits insurers from denying coverage to individuals due to pre-existing conditions, and a partial community rating requires insurers to offer the same premium price to all applicants of the same age and geographical location without regard to gender or most pre-existing conditions (excluding tobacco use)

- Minimum standards for health insurance policies are established. I.e.: The ACA includes regulations that set standards for insurance, some specified in the law, others subsequently established by the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Among these new standards are a ban on the ability to drop policyholders if they become sick, a ban on price discrimination on the basis of pre-existing conditions or sex through a partial community rating, and allowing children and dependents to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday.

 

[ericad]

Honestly I don't what can be done with this system because there will always be those of us who believe that healthcare is a right for all and those who believe it is the responsibility of the individual.

I want to live in an America where people genuinely care about the well-being of others. Where helping others is not viewed as what's being taken away from my bottom line but as doing what is needed for the greater good because the situation impacts us all whether it comes in the form of more money in taxes or health care premiums being paid, sick employees missing work, or the spread of germs and disease.

When I was in France with my family in the spring, we spent a considerable amount of time with some Parisian friends. We were joking about how they can spot an American from a mile away and I assumed it was because we're so loud (we truly are, lol) and my husband's friend said no, that Americans have a look of fear in their eyes that is unique to us. There's a twitchy air about us that permeates the room, one of a complete and utter inability to be at peace.

This, of course, launched us into a discussion about politics and comparing countries, etc. Our friend works a 35 hour workweek. He gets 6 weeks of paid annual vacation. He has a union to protect his rights. He has universal healthcare and free high quality education, from pre-school through college, for his children. Despite all of this, and the high tax burden placed on France's citizens, he makes a livable wage and lives comfortably. His wife is in remission from breast cancer and received excellent care from start to finish, all for free under their government plan. She received 12 months of maternity leave with each child, and her job was protected. They don't live in constant fear that one stroke of bad luck will bankrupt their family, or that they will die because they can't pay for medical treatment. They don't live in constant fear worrying about the quality of their childrens' education, and they can choose to retire whenever they see fit without needing to work for health insurance. They cannot fathom life in the US, and would not trade what they have for anything in the world, not even for a chance at material wealth (aka, American Dream) because they know that what they have is worth more than any amount of money. Do they feel entitled to everything they have? Sure they do, proudly so, and they won't give up an inch of it. Would you?

Some people would be horrified by the above. It's socialism! It's entitlement! But our friends' happiness and quality of life is the benchmark against which I compare life in the US. It's a high bar, and I don't actually believe that this will ever be possible here unless we completely deconstruct the system and rebuild from scratch, but it's what I dream of nonetheless. I have lofty goals, lol.

This sounds like heaven to me! Does that mean I'm a socialist? I should've married a Frenchman

This is an honest question. I am not being a smart alec. Is there a reason you would not move to France to find these things that you would like to have?

My parents. We would have moved there years ago but my family is here and I need to stay close to my parents as they age, so that I can help take care of them. I also want my daughter to have a close relationship with them. They've seen her almost every day since she was born - it would traumatize them and her if we moved so far away. Now isn't the right time for such a big change.

We will, however, look into our options for DD to attend college overseas when the time comes. And we most definitely plan to retire there, even if it means splitting our time between both places if our DD stays in the US when she's grown.

 

[chrono]

Almost everyone in my neighbourhood still uses their landlines.

 

[ericad]

Honestly I don't what can be done with this system because there will always be those of us who believe that healthcare is a right for all and those who believe it is the responsibility of the individual.

I want to live in an America where people genuinely care about the well-being of others. Where helping others is not viewed as what's being taken away from my bottom line but as doing what is needed for the greater good because the situation impacts us all whether it comes in the form of more money in taxes or health care premiums being paid, sick employees missing work, or the spread of germs and disease.

When I was in France with my family in the spring, we spent a considerable amount of time with some Parisian friends. We were joking about how they can spot an American from a mile away and I assumed it was because we're so loud (we truly are, lol) and my husband's friend said no, that Americans have a look of fear in their eyes that is unique to us. There's a twitchy air about us that permeates the room, one of a complete and utter inability to be at peace.

This, of course, launched us into a discussion about politics and comparing countries, etc. Our friend works a 35 hour workweek. He gets 6 weeks of paid annual vacation. He has a union to protect his rights. He has universal healthcare and free high quality education, from pre-school through college, for his children. Despite all of this, and the high tax burden placed on France's citizens, he makes a livable wage and lives comfortably. His wife is in remission from breast cancer and received excellent care from start to finish, all for free under their government plan. She received 12 months of maternity leave with each child, and her job was protected. They don't live in constant fear that one stroke of bad luck will bankrupt their family, or that they will die because they can't pay for medical treatment. They don't live in constant fear worrying about the quality of their childrens' education, and they can choose to retire whenever they see fit without needing to work for health insurance. They cannot fathom life in the US, and would not trade what they have for anything in the world, not even for a chance at material wealth (aka, American Dream) because they know that what they have is worth more than any amount of money. Do they feel entitled to everything they have? Sure they do, proudly so, and they won't give up an inch of it. Would you?

Some people would be horrified by the above. It's socialism! It's entitlement! But our friends' happiness and quality of life is the benchmark against which I compare life in the US. It's a high bar, and I don't actually believe that this will ever be possible here unless we completely deconstruct the system and rebuild from scratch, but it's what I dream of nonetheless. I have lofty goals, lol.

This sounds like heaven to me! Does that mean I'm a socialist? I should've married a Frenchman

It's not too late, makhro! But I have to warn you, the French are a very argumentative people, so get some ear plugs. Know what? They just passed marriage equality in France too, so I'll become French, then I'll dump my hubby and you can marry me, and your hubby can marry my hubby, then we'll move to France and switch back.

Done!

Does that proposal come with a gorgeous OEC? I mean I'd marry you either way and I don't mind a good debate

Whoa there! My husband and I need to come too! He's all hot to go to Paris, he's teaching himself French cooking (yes, of course I adore him) and we could be one big swinging socialist commune thing with great cooks and fabulous jewelry! What do ya think??

ETA: Boy knows how to argue too!! Really well.

Love it! I'm actually a hippie trapped in a diamond dealer's body - communes are totally the way to go.

 

[makhro82]

Honestly I don't what can be done with this system because there will always be those of us who believe that healthcare is a right for all and those who believe it is the responsibility of the individual.

I want to live in an America where people genuinely care about the soatundwell-being of others. Where helping others is not viewed as what's being taken away from my bottom line but as doing what is needesdood for the greater good because the situation impacts us all whether it comes in the form of more money in taxes or health care premiums being paid, sick employees missing work, or the spread of germs and disease.

When I was in France with my family in the spring, we spent a considerable amount of time with some Parisian friends. We were joking about how they can spot an American from a mile away and I assumed it was because we're so loud (we truly are, lol) and my husband's friend said no, that Americans have a look of fear in their eyes that is unique to us. There's a twitchy air about us that permeates the room, one of a complete and utter inability to be at peace.

This, of course, launched us into a discussion about politics and comparing countries, etc. Our friend works a 35 hour workweek. He gets 6 weeks of paid annual vacation. He has a union to protect his rights. He has universal healthcare and free high quality education, from pre-school through college, for his children. Despite all of this, and the high tax burden placed on France's citizens, he makes a livable wage and lives comfortably. His wife is in remission from breast cancer and received excellent care from start to finish, all for free under their government plan. She received 12 months of maternity leave with each child, and her job was protected. They don't live in constant fear that one stroke of bad luck will bankrupt their family, or that they will die because they can't pay for medical treatment. They don't live in constant fear worrying about the quality of their childrens' education, and they can choose to retire whenever they see fit without needing to work for health insurance. They cannot fathom life in the US, and would not trade what they have for anything in the world, not even for a chance at material wealth (aka, American Dream) because they know that what they have is worth more than any amount of money. Do they feel entitled to everything they have? Sure they do, proudly so, and they won't give up an inch of it. Would you?

Some people would be horrified by the above. It's socialism! It's entitlement! But our friends' happiness and quality of life is the benchmark against which I compare life in the US. It's a high bar, and I don't actually believe that this will ever be possible here unless we completely deconstruct the system and rebuild from scratch, but it's what I dream of nonetheless. I have lofty goals, lol.

This sounds like heaven to me! Does that mean I'm a socialist? I should've married a Frenchman

This is an honest question. I am not being a smart alec. Is there a reason you would not move to France to find these things that you would like to have?

Because it is incredibly hard. They know that they are highly desirable place to live so the process is very daunting.I've looked into France, England, and Costa Rica. My mom has MS a condition that will only continue to deteriorate over time and Medicare is not always the best. When she would get in "donut hole" one of her prescriptions would cost $500 per month, just one. She was receiving around $1100 per month in social security. So almost half of her income went to one prescription. People with MS are extremely sensitive to hot/cold conditions tthus her heating/cooling bills have always been astronomical, plus food cost, and that non-essential phone and other utilities. How could she afford actual housing like this? She couldn't and that is why she lives with me. So places that are either very affordable like Costs Rica or with socialized medical care have always been on my radar and I would go in a heartbeat if I could...

 

[ksinger]

Almost everyone in my neighbourhood still uses their landlines.

I do too. I don't trust cell phones as a primary, but I know many many people who do.

I guess the point is I don't see the objection. Help for having A phone has been going on for a long time. Pretty uncontroversial in most circles. Until of course, it's a CELL phone, perceived as being distributed like candy by a brown president, then the railing begins. Of course, when you read up on the program, you see that it's EITHER a landline or a cell, because in some markets, apparently, cell is actually cheaper.

 

[ericad]

I think people are missing the point of the phone program.

Let me 'splain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up:

1. The phone program began during Reagan's administration, to help the poor pay for land lines.
2. It was expanded to include cell phones (in lieu of a land line) during Bush's administration, so that now people can choose a mobile phone instead of a land line.

The poor aren't receiving a cell phone in addition to a land line. They are receiving it in lieu of a land line, and they typically have limits of 1 hour per month of usage time. Emergency use only.

The Obama administration had ZERO to do with this program. This is a fact. Not an opinion. A FACT.

The phones are not paid for using tax payer money. They're paid for by a non-profit third party company from donations made by telecom companies (which are tax deductible, of course, which is the only relationship they have to taxes whatsoever.)

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/the-obama-phone/

 

[crown1]

Almost everyone in my neighbourhood still uses their landlines.

I do too. I don't trust cell phones as a primary, but I know many many people who do.

I guess the point is I don't see the objection. Help for having A phone has been going on for a long time. Pretty uncontroversial in most circles. Until of course, it's a CELL phone, perceived as being distributed like candy by a brown president, then the railing begins. Of course, when you read up on the program, you see that it's EITHER a landline or a cell, because in some markets, apparently, cell is actually cheaper.

I have a land line. No cell phone. I do not consider either necessary but convenient. An elderly relative taught me about turning wants into needs. My parents taught their children to live on what they made. My husband and I lived by that code. We taught our child the same. That child has a doctorate degree and is not too proud to work any job if need be. I am thankful each day for what I have and try my best to share that with others. I get email from someone who has as a tagline: the government can not give you anything it does not take from someone else. That has given me something to think about.

eta: i understood your point that the government does not pay for the phones. the government referenced tagline does not refer to the government paying for phones. just another thought i had.

 

[ericad]

Almost everyone in my neighbourhood still uses their landlines.

I do too. I don't trust cell phones as a primary, but I know many many people who do.

I guess the point is I don't see the objection. Help for having A phone has been going on for a long time. Pretty uncontroversial in most circles. Until of course, it's a CELL phone, perceived as being distributed like candy by a brown president, then the railing begins. Of course, when you read up on the program, you see that it's EITHER a landline or a cell, because in some markets, apparently, cell is actually cheaper.

I have a land line. No cell phone. I do not consider either necessary but convenient. An elderly relative taught me about turning wants into needs. My parents taught their children to live on what they made. My husband and I lived by that code. We taught our child the same. That child has a doctorate degree and is not too proud to work any job if need be. I am thankful each day for what I have and try my best to share that with others. I get email from someone who has as a tagline: the government can not give you anything it does not take from someone else. That has given me something to think about.

eta: i understood your point that the government does not pay for the phones. the government referenced tagline does not refer to the government paying for phones. just another thought i had.

What if you have an emergency and need police or fire or ambulance? Is access to a phone really a want and not a need? I could care less what people did 50+ years ago when emergency services were very different, and technology was very different, so please don't tell me that your grandpappy lived without a phone, etc.

In present day, is a phone necessary for one's safety and health? What about children in the household, in the event of an emergency? Let the kid who is having a seizure just croak, because the family is poor and a phone is a want, and not a need?

I'm utterly sickened by the callousness I'm reading on this thread.

 

[justginger]

Why does everyone want to move to France with Erica, but no one wants to be in Australia with me?

We have socialized medicine
We have socialized education
We have the only economy in the world that sailed through the GFC without stalling
We have great relations with everyone
We have the most kickass flora and fauna
We have two seasons of weather: perfect and just a little less perfect
We have the most beautiful beaches in the world
Oh yeah, and we speak English so you don't even have to learn anything more than driving on the other side of the road.


Seriously, for whomever asked about other countries' successful healthcare programs, find the link I posted back around page 5/6. It is a direct MSN Money comparison of about 15 different countries - their percent of GDP spent on health, life expectancy, obesity rates, smoking rates, etc. It is clear to see which systems are working, in terms of cost and life expectancy (hint: it's socialized medicine).

 

[makhro82]

Why does everyone want to move to France with Erica, but no one wants to be in Australia with me?

We have socialized medicine
We have socialized education
We have the only economy in the world that sailed through the GFC without stalling
We have great relations with everyone
We have the most kickass flora and fauna
We have two seasons of weather: perfect and just a little less perfect
We have the most beautiful beaches in the world
Oh yeah, and we speak English so you don't even have to learn anything more than driving on the other side of the road.


Seriously, for whomever asked about other countries' successful healthcare programs, find the link I posted back around page 5/6. It is a direct MSN Money comparison of about 15 different countries - their percent of GDP spent on health, life expectancy, obesity rates, smoking rates, etc. It is clear to see which systems are working, in terms of cost and life expectancy (hint: it's socialized medicine).

How's your wine and cheese? Are employment rates pretty good? Can I afford a decent home? If all these things check out I'll add it to my list