$100 Referral

[AGBF]

Date: 2/5/2005 5:38:27 PM
Author: strmrdr

On the issue of paying past customers for referrals.

I think its a good idea in the local market but a bad idea on a board like this.

I agree totally. And Leonid has said it is against Pricescope policy *TO* do it on a board like this, namely this board. That's good enough for me.


Deborah

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 2/5/2005 5:46:36 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 2/5/2005 5:38:27 PM
Author: strmrdr

On the issue of paying past customers for referrals.

I think its a good idea in the local market but a bad idea on a board like this.

I agree totally. And Leonid has said it is against Pricescope policy *TO* do it on a board like this, namely this board. That''s good enough for me.


Deborah

Yes, and I would take it one step further - it should be in the rules. If one receives a cash payment, one must resign their PS tenure.

I maintain that I am stunned by this. Preferential treatment, yes - as a past consumer. A payoff - no. Money is an powerful incentive.

 

[perry]

I am surprised by some of this:

1) I did not take Brian''s comment as a badmouth of Pricescope, but I did take it as an honest question. If a person can be banned just by posting a question.... That is not a good thing.

Leonid, it makes me think. I understand the hurt in Brian''s second post.

I''ll miss you Brian.

2) It seems that Whiteflash is the one company offering such payments. What are the implications of that. I previously said that if things were done right as a reward that it is an acceptable practive. But I think that people should know more about it up front so that they can judge the advice they are getting.

Perry

 

[fire&ice]

Nope, I was serious. I''m not faulting the reward program offered by vendors. I am finding fault with posters receiving monetary rewards for posting stones from a website where there may be financial gain. Money is always where the line is drawn. The professional vs the amateur.

It''s one thing to recommend AOL to a friend and then receive a month''s service free. It''s another to go on a web support site & plug AOL to receive monetary rewards in a vaccum. It''s kind of trolling.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Date: 2/5/2005 6:32

6 PM
Author: perry
I am surprised by some of this:

1) I did not take Brian's comment as a badmouth of Pricescope, but I did take it as an honest question. If a person can be banned just by posting a question.... That is not a good thing.

Leonid, it makes me think. I understand the hurt in Brian's second post.

I'll miss you Brian.

2) It seems that Whiteflash is the one company offering such payments. What are the implications of that. I previously said that if things were done right as a reward that it is an acceptable practive. But I think that people should know more about it up front so that they can judge the advice they are getting.

Perry

To Feydakin: Concerning this response: Even Leonid offers his little Diamond in the Web pin to those that have gone above and beyond for "pricescope"

This pin has nothing to do with the exchange of any monies for merchandise and is strictly a gift of gratitude based on participation from consumers on the PS forum who volunteer their time without charge.

Perry: Read Johns statement again..

QOUTE:
However, unless the $100 figure is coincidence, there may be confusion regarding an established Whiteflash customer loyalty policy that has nothing to do with Pricescope.
When a new customer makes a purchase and specifically mentions referral by a prior customer (typically a relative, friend or associate) we award a $100 referral fee after the 10-day return period expires.
It has to do with discounting return customers or customers who are referred to them by other members who have purchased from them.

Perry:Alot of assumptions are being made here nowhere does it mention PS members making referrals for monetary gain, which is the original intent of Brians misleading post.

I truly believe in voicing our rational opinions, but let's do so regarding the original issue of what Brian posted, not assumptions being made on what he meant or rationalizing what he did.Brian is a business man and he knows this statement is mis-leading. Let's stick to the facts..

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

I don''t get much business from posting here. My web site gets hits out of pricescope but it is a gallery and not a e-commerce site - most of my hits are from the US, so I don''t meet the people who view my site. I am here to learn and I like to contribute where I can to pay back for what I have taken.

The grey area is too huge to comprehend. Anyone who says the he/is is not self interested in who they promote is wrong. What is at issue here is shill operators. It is not something that can be contended against easily. Outright lies is one issue as expressed already, another issue is payment for recommendations by consumers - that it not wrong. Payment by vendors is wrong, but that is where the greay line is. If I make a ring for x and x says it was great and other people send their business my way, of course I look at x as a very good customer. What I do then can put me in or out of the loop.

How many retailers here have said to their customer if you like the ring etc, feel free to post it on PS or DT? (moreso, the later) What is your take on that Leonid? I started my life on PS posting something I had made. Other jewellers occassionally post something they have made and I have done it again, but only where it was relevant to the post. I don''t see where a consumers post is all that much different in cases where they are promoting someone for whatever reason, but I don''t feel they are doing something wrong. It doesn''t happen here much but it could if retailers were pushing their customers to post here. It happens elsewhere and there are provisions for that sort of thing. I don''t like it because it limits the consumer to only a few jewellers techniques but I can see some value in it for a consumer who likes to see how jewellery is made.

I just replied to a consumer about a ring from Whiteflash which is safer then the photo makes it look. This is a proffessional oppinion from making a huge amount of the same ring, both hand forged and cast, so I know what I am saying. Can I get paid? (open question) I''d be happy if the situation arose in reverse and Whiteflash volunteered a true account for what I made, but it is not what I am about.

I did that for a reason. I did not do it for nothing. I like to let people know that I know what I am talking about and I like to debate about how things are done because that is how I learn. It gives another dimension to my life behind the bench, paid or unpaid. I like posting to consumers because I know they appreciate the help and I post questions on other forums and as I have been helped I like to help in return. I am more then happy to do my bit for pricescope because I like the people here and I do my little bit to earn the masses of usefull information I have been able to take away.

Many people here offer unbiased oppinions over questions they have masses of experience with. They offer it time and time again and they do not self promote except to promote the fact they are honest and unbiased. A lot are actually nerds who just like talking about jewellery

And don''t we luv ya''s

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

How many retailers here have said to their customer if you like the ring etc, feel free to post it on PS or DT? (moreso, the later)

There is nothing wrong with this Phillip.

The real issue is receiving monies cash rewards or incentives for referring customers to retailers without prior experience dealing with the retailer who is giving the incentives.(Which is what is being addressed after what Brian posted)

If you build your business on the premis of providing reliable, quality services along with unbiased advice on the forum it is self serving, but ok and you will be rewarded by other consumers reading the testomonial regarding your services. I believe there is nothing wrong with this type of promotion because its earned and I as a consumer reward those vendors by posting my experience "good" or "bad" wether they are PS vendors or not.

What is the main concern of the Moderator is that open-ended leading statements are being made without factual information or taking bits of information out of context to tarnish the "theme" of what PS is meant to convey.

It does not serve the community to make statements like this and violators are handled accordingly by the moderator. Leonid will make this distinction, but make no mistake the distinction is not being made flagrantly or without merit.

There are other issues surrounding this forum that Leonid has to deal with and being that he acts in the best interest of the forum and capacity of a professional we are not privied to some of those issues which he has knowledge of.

Keep this in mind also

 

[pricescope]

IBTL (thanks for the new term RA

)

As I wrote in my first reply, If there will be any evidence about arranging payments for the referrals on the forum regarding any vendor, such vendor will be gone and all the recommendations will be erased.

Otherwise, such insinuations are poisonous for the community.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

First of all, appologies to Whiteflash if you go looking for that post. I am still posting about a very nice ring but it is from DirtCheapDiamonds.

I wasn''t saying that consumers who post their thanks and recommendations here are wrong, but I thank you for clarifying the PS stance. Nothing here, on that issue bothers me. Sorry if it appeared otherwise. I have a slightly guilty conscience where I would not hesitate to discount a customers future jewels who recommends me on this or other forums, just as a thanks for their effort. In that way I am a retailer who offers incentives for recommendations, and I worry about that. I had better be careful. My business is new and I think I am more guilty about not being as established as a lot of retailers here. It is a moot point.

I made no mention of the matter you are talking about because I don''t have the facts. At a glance it looks like he was posing some questions and showing surprise at a posibility. I can also see the PS point of view that it is inflamitary and in context of things I don''t really know about it was a sign of ill feeling.

I am keeping well clear of that one. Leonid runs a good show and I am happy to let him do his thing.

 

[pricescope]

"We can''t go on together, with Suspicious Minds;
and we can''t build our dreams, on Suspicious Minds."

Suspicious Minds [By Mark James; Sung by Elvis Presley]

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

Go on with ya

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 2/5/2005 3:43:11 PM
Author: Brian Knox

I have just been informed that I can no longer post my website link or make mention of my business name.

Apparently, because of my post on this thread:

I have been quoted (unethically and possibly illegally) in and out of context from private (ha-ha) threads on Polygon (a jeweler’s only forum)

It is very common to use less than complimentary names or nicknames or references for the competition. Sure, I’m guilty of that, but so is everybody from every business in the world that has discussed competition, etc. in ‘private’ meetings like this.

Regardless of what I have said in private, in my public persona, I have always been very respectful of all venues represented here on PS and have tried to help consumers here on PS where possible.

So what you are saying is: you should be welcomed onto this arena just because you "act" nicely when you''re here, and it shouldn''t matter if you trash PS and/or Leonid as long as it''s not to his face?

That''s crazy. If you think it''s acceptable to refer to him or PS by an uncomplimentary nickname outside of this forum, then you seriously have no business participating.

I don''t tolerate that type of trash talk from my friends, and I don''t remain friends with people I catch doing it, and I CERTAINLY don''t invite them into my house to be two-faced to my face.

I don''t see why PS should either.

If you believe that firmly in painting PS with a nasty brush, then at least validate your position with the personal integrity to stay on your side of the fence.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 2/5/2005 4:19:21 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
Brian is attempting to make himself (and others) feel better about his anti-PS bias. If he were candid about his views while posting here at PS his views would be more welcome.

To badmouth THIS forum on others and then to have his business benefit from PS traffic is not ''straight shooting''. He happily plays both sides of the fence. He feigns disbelief when he''s not allowed to promote his business here, yet revels with the like minded souls at a forum which bans all non-conforming persons.

PLEASE.

A HEARTY, HEARTY "Amen" to that, RA. You''ve said it so perfectly there is nothing to add.

 

[Kaleigh]

Aljdewey,
My thoughts exactly!

 

[Superidealist]

Author: JohnQuixote

However, unless the $100 figure is coincidence, there may be confusion regarding an established Whiteflash customer loyalty policy that has nothing to do with Pricescope.

The vendor in question was Whiteflash so it must not have been clear to the customer who emailed me that the referral bonus was restricted to those who had previously bought from Whiteflash (as I have not).

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/5/2005 11:18:52 PM
Author: Superidealist

The vendor in question was Whiteflash so it must not have been clear to the customer who emailed me that the referral bonus was restricted to those who had previously bought from Whiteflash (as I have not).

D Riley,

Correct. That person did not understand.

1. If they had tried to refer you it would not have been honored, since you are not a former customer.
2. As a former customer, you would have known the need to contact us and give us the name of the person you were referring.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Let us be crystal clear.

We do not offer rewards for recommendations on the forum and we wholeheartedly support what Leonid says. We agree that anyone being paid as he indicates should be removed from PriceScope.

Our sales referral policy has been in place for 6 years (it started as $50). It predates PriceScope and was well known in the early days of the Diamond Talk forum. Such ballyhoo seems strange now. I suspect recent fabrications and accusations elsewhere have caused hypersensitivity and incidents of surprising pontification here.

Even so, here is elaboration on the policy:

Policy

The referral benefit is a gift to a previously established customer who alerts another party to our presence and it results in a sale. It is part of our purchase package, just like our free verification and Lifetime trade-up policy. Long ago we surveyed customers, asking whether they would like chocolates, flowers, gift-cards or cash. Cash was the overwhelming choice. People are people.

The policy is a practical and global business decision. Many companies (Blue Nile is one named in the thread) have such a policy. In the large-scale it is very positive, but is being spun for ill by some in this isolated venue. The fact is that almost all referrals we issue are family and friends of customers with no ties to anyone who traffics PS.

In case others would like to adopt such a policy, here is how it works:

1. Buy a product from Whiteflash (thank you).

Later, if you have occasion to point someone in our direction…

2. Contact us and tell us, by name, the person you are referring.
3. The person you referred identifies you by name when we ask “How did you find us?” We ask this of all new customers as part of our market survey.
4. If you named them and they named you the benefit is issued after the 10-day return period ends and the sale is completed.

That is all.

”Abuse”

Considering the safeguards, examine the difficulty of trying to abuse this on PS…Go gold-digging with Machiavellian intent, hounding newbies with referrals and PMs. If this escaped Leonid’s notice (unlikely) the consumer would need to make other consumers' and expert voices disappear. He would need sleight of hand to vanish other IdealScope images, Sarins, grading documents and even info WF do not endorse like BS, Isee, etc. At last, once he had pulled a "Magical Trevor" on the hundreds of regulars' voices, the tutorials, the past threads and gigabytes of data on other vendors' websites, he would need to "innocently" get the target’s name, “innocently” provide his real name to the target – all via PM or email - and then somehow "innocently" suggest that he be used as a referral.

Fact

Even without exaggeration, this type of abuse is simply not occurring. We had just over a hundred referral benefits go out in 2004. Less than 1/10 were associated with people who have any presence on PS. Of course, since we have dozens of past customers on PS it is logical that in the course of life some will have occasion to refer us to others (and we hope that they do!).

Fiction

We don’t believe in implied statements, or between-the-lines innuendo. If there is something to say here, say it. If there is an accusation make it clear and back it up with proof. There is definitely topical hypersensitivity, due to recent forum “warring,” and the accusations of lions, tigers & shills (oh my), but that is no reason to call a commonplace business practice nefarious.

Of course, if this policy did not exist for us, I suppose it would be politically advantageous for me to help pave the moral (countrified) high road in this thread with pious statements condemning the “impartiality” and therefore the integrity, of posters allegedly motivated by prurient interest. As our numbers demonstrate, this is just not happening with WF, and I would hope not to judge others so blithely without proof of wrongdoing.

I can stand toe to toe and cast motes spanning a devastating range of issues if the gauntlet is thrown, but would rather not be forced into the role of an ethics demagogue over what is simply a common business policy. Ideally, I would hope for a larger view from professionals, rather than fish-tank sized accusations or a seized opportunity for sanctimonious homily.

The world is larger than PriceScope. This policy was not enacted with PS in mind. It is a simple and genial business practice that is part of our chosen benefits package, and has been for 6 years.

PriceScope

Leonid risked much to build this site. It resulted in a wonderful forum in which we are proud to participate. He has assured that it will be consumer driven. The reason we love this place is the impartiality and the honesty of the many consumers, whether positive or negative. Everything posted here is truthful or easily smelled out as a charade by regulars. Leonid is ever-vigilant. Trolls are commonly smelled out. If posters were shills they would be smelled out. If someone was unduly warring to “earn” purchase benefit “gifts” they would be smelled out.

We are honoured by kind comments from past customers and the many others who are not yet customers but refer our goods and services anyway. Both types of enthusiast give generously of their time and effort. Unless evidence appears to the contrary I maintain that both types of enthusiast are motivated by the same passion for knowledge and helping others. To assert differently is tantamount to the witch-hunt mentality of “guilty until proven innocent.”

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have long argured with Leonid not to let non advertising paying businesses list links on their posts - except for appraisers who provide a lot of free advice.

Leonid has put up with heaps from some people who are frequent posters on private trade sites and other forums.

I am glad there is no shilling happening here - at first when I started reading this thread my heart sank.

 

[noobie]

John,

I don’t think there is a need for you to defend anything. There is nothing wrong or unusual with the policy. In my case the vendor was WF and indeed the customer was not aware of the details of the policy, nor was I. I didn’t know it existed until it was raised. Personally I wouldn’t accept such rewards. I would prefer you gave extra discount to the person I referred.

However I can see how a new browser can get the impression that certain vendors are favored. I must admit I got that impression when I first started reading here. Over time though, I realized those enthusiastic recommendations were just due to an appreciation of services provided as R&T point out.

I only intended to pass through and get some knowledge, make my purchases and move on. Can’t you tell by the screen name I chose in haste? However, I found this place so genuinely and unselfishly helpful and learned so much that I decided to stick around and maybe help some others as I was. Without PS, I would have bounced around a few places and purchased a nice, but not outstanding piece for an average retail cost. Instead, I got a few outstanding pieces for what I would have paid for one. I also continue to get great pieces through what I’ve learned here. Probably spend more money than planned, but what the hey. I also got to know a some great people that could only be painted as shrills by someone with ulterior motives.

It’s unfortunate that industry politics spills over from time to time. It’s inevitable when commerce and people’s livelihoods are involved. I’m glad it only happens rarely and that Leonid does such a good job of providing a fair and balanced place. I’m just thankful for what I’ve been able to personally learn and use (and money saved).

 

[icelady]

Am I the only one that questions the reasoning of the oringinal post here? First, the question posed would not have been necessary had SI (knowing who the vendor was) gone to the vendor in question to verify this practice prior to opening this discussion publicly. Another option would have been to alert Leonid so that he could handle it properly IF there was a problem, especially considering the recent climate.

Second, SI, in your "Would you or Wouldn't You?" thread you state that you "would not" buy from Whiteflash. I am wondering if there is another reason behind this thread since you knew there was a possibility of the vendor in question being revealed.

The opportunity for the subsequent "misleading statement" would not have existed if not for the original post.

 

[belle]

no icelady, you are not the only one. i hope this issue can finally be put to rest.

 

[icelady]

Me too, Belle.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/6/2005 2:17:20 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
I have long argured with Leonid not to let non advertising paying businesses list links on their posts - except for appraisers who provide a lot of free advice.

I think that would be a very bad idea.
Fresh faces, new ideas and new opinions keeps PS interesting.
If you close off an incentive for experts to help out here it becomes a much more closed minded place.
Sometimes it comes dangerously close to that the way it is now.

 

[fire&ice]

I am curious as well.

Edited to add: as to the intention of initializing this thread. Surely, the response was to be expected.

 

[strmrdr]

After a long talk with John yesterday Im convinced that the policy isnt being abused.
While im less than thrilled about the policy it isnt doing any harm that I can see.
I trust the folks at WF to keep an eye out for problems with it.
The simple fact is that if it was being abused they would be the first to know.
They can not afford to let it be abused and would take action.
An official policy of a cap on how many times it can be used might be a good idea.

In my opinion there is nothing to see here we can safely move on.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 2/6/2005 10:34:28 AM
Author: icelady
Am I the only one that questions the reasoning of the oringinal post here? First, the question posed would not have been necessary had SI (knowing who the vendor was) gone to the vendor in question to verify this practice prior to opening this discussion publicly

No, I don''t question the motive of the original post at all.....I''m certain it was purely to be a troublemaker.

You''re right......this *wouldn''t* have been necessary IF the true intention was to clarify the issue. However, this is an ongoing pattern of behavior with SI.....he has a proclivity toward asking questions he KNOWS will start a s*itstorm and doing it just to cause strife and unrest.

Some people don''t have enough to do.

 

[perry]

Josh (AKA: Collored Jemstone Nut):

You accuse me of making assumptions, yet you state a huge assumption about the intent of Brian''s post.

Looking back at it I can see how it could be interpredted as you imply, but I can also see it being interpreted more as a question.

So what was the intent? One of the struggle of commmunication soley by writing - is the problems of writing to avoid misinterpretation of intent. Very tough to do at time.

Combined with that we all have good days and bad days. Do I wish I could go back and rewrite something later after I see how people interpret it. Yes. I am sure that applies to everyone here.

Unless there is a pattern I prefer to give people the benifit of the doubt for occasional lapses. Up to now Brian has been a straight shooter. So why jump to the worst possible interpretation?

Further reading in this thread indicates that Brian may have posted elsewhere in a fashion that negatively affected Pricescope. If true and if in a general pattern, then I can understand Leonids response better. If it was only an occasional thing on a specific item, I would tend to try to deal with that privately via e-mail first.

I understand that this is Leonids forum, and it is not a democracy. I have previously defended Leonids handling of some issues here. However, In this case I don''t have all the facts, and I doubt that most of the posters really know more than I do about what the real facts are.

In the end the situation is what it is at this time; and none of us can change it.

I thank John for his fuller explaination; that was all I was asking for.

I ask Leonid to consider contacting people via e-mail for occasional strays accross the line. No one knows what our health is and mental distractions when we post, and how well we communicate our intent. Perhaps all this situation needed was a clarification on original intent, perhaps not.

Have a nice day folks, I tend to check in and post a lot less than before as I am busy with other things and it does not look like I will be buying an engagement ring anytime soon. But at least I have a nice pair of matched 1/4 carat diamonds to play with...

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 2/6/2005 11:25:35 AM
Author: strmrdr

While im less than thrilled about the policy it isnt doing any harm that I can see.

In my opinion there is nothing to see here we can safely move on.

There never WAS anything to see here about this in the first place!

Where has everyone been? Referral gifts are a fairly common business practice (as someone pointed out -- I think it was Fedy?) and it occurs in several industries. Word of mouth is the single most powerful advertising opportunity.

My local gym has a rewards program, so if I were to refer friends to that gym and they said I referred them when they joined, I''d get a break on one of my month''s fees.

I just bought a house; I selected a broker that one of my friends had worked with and was quite happy with. The broker thanked my friend for recommending us by sending a small goody basket.

The company I work for offers a referral bonus if I were to refer anyone to work for the company as a way to help them find good people.

In all of these instances, it requires FIRST that you earn a happy customer. Without that, referral programs don''t work.

I''d also point out them NONE of the rewards are substantial enough that folks would quit their day jobs to become a full-time reference. People with any sane level of common sense must surely recognize that no one in their right mind would spend thousands of hours posting here on the whim of possibly getting $100 here and there.

No, there never was anything to see.......except by those who see what they *want* to see and not what is.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Perry:

Congrats on your diamonds and good luck picking out an engagement ring when the time comes. I still hope to see you posting on PS.

 

[TLS]

I am glad John came on to explain the policy, I feel much better about it now after hearing more of the details and the person giving the referral has to be a previous customer and it can't just be just any pricescope "identity" but a real person who has used the vendor in the past. I do think though as Storm mentioned a cap might make some sense.

The original posting really made it sound like some kind of shady practice, and I am glad that John came on to explain how the policy works.

edited to add: In my opinon a company with a good reputation speaks for itself because customers normally give referrals to places they have had good experiences with, and in most cases without any expectation of a gift. I think if a hundred dollars is given as just a thank you then I think it should be a one time gift only.