Royal Jewels

[prince.of.preslav]

And here is HRH The Duchess of Gloucester wearing the parure with the first necklace. It is also intriguing that the late Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester wasn't seen with either necklaces.

Assuming that both Gloucester necklaces and the one one from QEQM/Princess Margaret's parure came from Queen Mary, that would mean that the latter (Mary) had three turquoise & diamond necklaces...

Bobby

 

[alexander1917]

may Mary got 4 or 5 necklaces.. don''t know. I just think of the very large gifts which Victoria, Alexandra and also Mary received during their reins from f.e. India.

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Alexander, thank you very much! I never knew that Queen Mary had so many turquois pieces.

Regards,

Bobby

 

[alexander1917]

oh she got sooo many jewels. I think she knew exactly what she had and where to find it.

Mary did not only catalogued the RC but also arrange rearrenge the rooms in the palaces. also the state rooms, which took George V sometimes furious. and may you have heard of the handwritten notes on every item. but of course with system. so she discoverd a sitting group which was spreat of 4 residences.

she also wrote a book of daily events and the clothes, jewels she wore. (now in the Royal Archive)

Her memory was unbelievible.
In the time of her evacuation at Badminton she wrote to the keeper of Windsor Castle to "go to a hallway, look at a chest second drawer, aren't there the cloth from Queen Adelaide."
He went, looked and discoverd the item in question.

There are so many "storerooms" in the palaces. and the vaults where the jewels were keept must be like Ali Babas cave.

 

[prince.of.preslav]

You''re right. Queen Mary did quite a lot for the Royal Collection - not only she catalogued the items, but also added a lot of Fabergé and others works of art.
I know that there was a handwritten note in every box with jewels with the year when it was acquired/gieven to her, the name of presenter and the occasion.

Today I read that the late Queen Elizabeth also had her jewels carefuly sorted and labelled. This was probably something she learned from her mother-in-law. Hopefully the present Queen also has such nothes in her jewellery boxes

I think Princess Matrgaret also labelled her jewels. In the box of her riviere there were three handwritten notes - ''The first reads ''Row of Diamonds from Lady Mount Stephen. 34 inc. snap.''; the second ''Special Bequest H.M. The Queen (Later Queen Mary) Diamond Collet Necklace''; and the third ''Lady Mount Stephen'' 34 stones in all The Princess Margaret''.'' (from Christe''s).

PS: Thanks for sharing the story about the evacuation at Badminton. Wonder if that historical cloth is still around...

Bobby

 

[alexander1917]

thats so true..

Oh I think it is still most of the items on the place were it belonged. Somewhere I read that Queen Mary went into EVERY room in the palaces, and she noted EVERY thing! may the first time that the King knew what items he ownd.
if she wore her pearls when inspecting the basements????

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Haha, maybe you're right that Queen Mary's cataloguing the items in that palaces was probably the first time George V knew what he actually owned/held in trust.
Alexander, am I right that when Mary visited people/friends's homes and saw something she really liked, when she was leaving she usually said something like - "Ohh, I can't really leave without this beauty" (or sth similar)? Of course the owner couldn't say No and had to part with the beauty in question. I've seen a photo of her in front a showcase and looking at many objets d'art and I think these were all such 'gifts'.

PS: I doubt women go at their basements without their diamond rings, so why not wearing pearls down there? Especially when you're Queen Mary...

Bobby

 

[neil31uk]

Hi Guys,

Been a while since my last post, but I have been following all of yours!

Last night I found this photo of HM Queen Alexandra of the UK. She is wearing the Regal Circlet that I am a great fan of and I would like to see reset with gems for use by future royals.

I noticed something rising above the circlet, it''s seemingly on HMs head. I think it maybe the small crown of Queen Victoria. Does anyone agree? What a combination!

Neil

 

[prince.of.preslav]

That's correct, neil31uk! Queen Alexandra wore both Queen Victoria's Regal circlet and small crown. Check tomorrow for a back-view picture of Her Majesty.

Ragards,
Bobby

 

[neil31uk]

Thanks Bobby,

Looking forward to that pic.

I also found this pic of HM George VI and HM Queen Elizabeth from their coronation in 1937. I have never seen a picture of a Queen Consort holding a sceptre, although I knew that they have them - I have seen them a few times at the Tower of London. They are the equivalent of the Sovereigns'' Sceptre witht eh Cross and the Sceptre with the Dove - in the QC''s case, the Ivory Rod. This pic also reminds us that a QC never uses an orb, hence here Queen Elizabeth brought both sceptres back from the abbey.

Neil

 

[loriken214]

Date: 2/18/2010 12:56:29 PM
Author: neil31uk
Thanks Bobby,

Looking forward to that pic.

I also found this pic of HM George VI and HM Queen Elizabeth from their coronation in 1937. I have never seen a picture of a Queen Consort holding a sceptre, although I knew that they have them - I have seen them a few times at the Tower of London. They are the equivalent of the Sovereigns'' Sceptre witht eh Cross and the Sceptre with the Dove - in the QC''s case, the Ivory Rod. This pic also reminds us that a QC never uses an orb, hence here Queen Elizabeth brought both sceptres back from the abbey.

Neil

AWESOME photo...thank you Neil!

Lori

 

[prince.of.preslav]

WoW! Thanks Neil for posting this picture! I''ve seen so many pictures from the 1937 Coronation, but never ones of Queen Elizabeth holding sceptres. Here is a link to a picture of UK''s Regalia - Link - Maybe the Queen Consort''s scepters are there too.

Here is the picture of Queen Alexandra, where the arches of the small crown are better visible. This photo als shows the diamond chain''s pendant:

 

[neil31uk]

Hi Bobby, thanks for that pic, its also great, so much clearer. Alexandra knew how to combine very different jewels didn''t she?

I had a look at the at pic, and the Ivory Rod is number 11, as the Sovereign''s sceptre has the dove with open wings. I read earlier today that the dove at the top of the Ivory Rod is carved from white onyx. I think the QC''s sceptre with the cross is number 10, it looks like the forms. Its very simple, mounted with diamonds and some enamel, not even a pearl!

I have to say the crown of QEQM is my joint favourite. I love the art deco, yet classic style of it. and of course it is platinum. That said, my other favourite is the Imperial Crown of India, as I love the colour from the other gems, the cabochon emeralds are especially beautiful.

Neil

 

[neil31uk]

Much as I like the regal circlet, but i would love to see the frame restored with some other gems too, and see it glisten!

 

[neil31uk]

I also ment to say that apart from the ivory, and the white onyx dove, the Ivory Rod only contains gold and enamel, no other gems. but in its day (the 1680s) I think the ivory was considered a gret status symbol in its own right.

 

[neil31uk]

Just thought I would upload a pic of the Imperial Crown of India - I think it is simply a magnificent work of art.

 

[neil31uk]

Yet another post from me today!

Thought I would upload a pic of the coronet of HRH the Duke of Edinburgh from the coronation of HN The Queen. I note two things with this picture. 1) Phillip was wearing the coronet of a Prince - with crosses and fleu-di-lyis where he was not a prince at the time of the coronation. Indeed, he should have worn the coronet of a Royal Duke with crosses and strawberry leaves. Was he granted a higher coronet as the husband of the Sovereign?

2) normally these coronets do not contain gems, rather engravings and mouldings to simulate them. However, this coronet looks to contain gems, what do people think?

Neil

 

[AGBF]

Date: 2/18/2010 5:00:16 PM
Author: neil31uk
Yet another post from me today!

Thought I would upload a pic of the coronet of HRH the Duke of Edinburgh from the coronation of HN The Queen. I note two things with this picture. 1) Phillip was wearing the coronet of a Prince - with crosses and fleu-di-lyis where he was not a prince at the time of the coronation. Indeed, he should have worn the coronet of a Royal Duke with crosses and strawberry leaves. Was he granted a higher coronet as the husband of the Sovereign?

2) normally these coronets do not contain gems, rather engravings and mouldings to simulate them. However, this coronet looks to contain gems, what do people think?

Neil

Neil, Phillip was born a prince. Only someone born a prince or a princess has his first name used in the title. He is entitled to be known as, "Prince Phillip" since he was born to that title. When Lady Diana Spencer became the Princess of Wales she was not, "Princess Diana" because she was not born a princess. The Princess Michael of Kent is known to chafe at being unable to use her first name after, "Princess". If prince Phillip uses the title, "The Duke of Edinburgh" it is because that title (of a royal duke) is a very high title. The Prince Andrew started to use, "The Duke of York" once he was given that title by the Queen on the occasion of his wedding.

AGBF

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Thnaks for the new pictures!

The Imperial Crown of India has always been my favourite crown ever! Pity that it isn't worn these days!
Regarding Queen Consorts' crowns, I prefer Queen Elizabeth's (because of the Art Deco and the platinum), but in the same time I think Queen Mary's crown is far more feminin and elegant.

And here is my answer of your question - No, there aren't any gems in The Duke of Edinburgh's coronet.
Is there such thing as a Prince's coronet? Looking at pictures of the late Duke of Kent from 1937 and comparing them to the DoE's photo from 1953 I think that both princes wore the same type of coronets - that of a Royal Duke.
Do you have a picture of a male royal wearing a coronet with crosses and strawberry leafs?

Here is a larger photo of Prince Philip:

 

[neil31uk]

Hi AGBF,

I have to disagree with you on a point there - Phillip had to renounce his title of Prince of Greece and Denmark in order to marry Princess Elizabeth as he was required to become naturalised British citizen. He was only created HRH the Duke of Edinburgh upon his marriage and not then created a Prince (again) until 1958 (after much argument apparently), so although a Royal Duke is still a high title, the coronet is awarded on the basis of rank as a prince or princess and also in terms of are you the child/grandchild of the sovereign.

Of course we may BOTH be right: he was no longer a prince, but given the coronet of a prince because of his ancestry.

Best wishes,

Neil

 

[AGBF]

Date: 2/18/2010 5:38:24 PM
Author: neil31uk


I have to disagree with you on a point there - Phillip had to renounce his title of Prince of Greece and Denmark in order to marry Princess Elizabeth as he was required to become naturalised British citizen. He was only created HRH the Duke of Edinburgh upon his marriage and not then created a Prince (again) until 1958 (after much argument apparently), so although a Royal Duke is still a high title, the coronet is awarded on the basis of rank as a prince or princess and also in terms of are you the child/grandchild of the sovereign.

Of course we may BOTH be right: he was no longer a prince, but given the coronet of a prince because of his ancestry.

Thank you for the additional information, Neil!!! I see I had better stay on my toes! The possibility that he was given the coronet of the prince based on his ancestry reminds me of decision to keep the Duke of Windsor royal from when he was king through when he became the Duke of Windsor. I believe that the argument was that if he was royal he would remain royal?

Deb/AGBF

 

[neil31uk]

Hi Bobby,

THANK YOU for that much larger picture, you have answered my question, re is it gem set, from this picture it is moulded and engraved to simulate gems.

The Duke of Gloucester''s coronet is the same as the DoE''s as the DoG was the son of a sovereign and so entitled to the Coronet of a prince. There is a range of coronets int he UK allocated based partly on title and partly on your relation to a sovereign:

1) Coronet with crosses and fleu-de-lys and an arch for the PoW.

2) coronet with crosses and fleu-de-lys for children of the Sovereign.

3) coronet with four fleu-de-lys, two strawberry leaves and two crosses for the grandchildren of the sovereign who are the children of the PoW.

4) coronet with four strawberry leaves and four crosses for other grandchildren of the sovereign.

This last coronet is the pattern used by Royal Dukes by virtue of them being the grandchildren of the sovereign and has been in the past allocated to those becoming a Royal Duke but not a prince by blood. At least I think its been used before, I will look for more evidence to support this.

And your right, its a shame the Imperial Crown of India is no longer used. Maybe HM could be persuaded to take it on tour to a country like Canada where she is also Queen and use it to open parliament there.

Best wishes,

Neil

 

[neil31uk]

Hi, yeah I read that too, and I also read that they wanted to make sure he could not speak or vote in the House of Lords (which apparently being an HRH stopped) because of his right wing political views adn all the sensitive government papers he got to read a king. I read that he was:

"HRH The Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor" - I note that he was not given a subsidiary title. What would have happened if he and Wallis had had children? Do you think such a child would be styled HRH and made a Prince as is the right of a grandchild of a sovereign?

Neil

 

[prince.of.preslav]

I just realised that coronets with crosses and strawberry leafs would be worn bu TRH The Dukes of Gloucester and Kent, since they''re the grand children of a British sovereign.

AGBF, I can''t understand The Duke of Windsor''s role here. He never ceased being royal - he was a prince of The United Kingdom and a member of the royal family, even if he lived in France and hardly ever represented the royal family. Only his wife wasn''t offically recognized as a royal.
Bobby

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Date: 2/18/2010 5:58:50 PM
Author: neil31uk

''HRH The Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor'' - I note that he was not given a subsidiary title. What would have happened if he and Wallis had had children? Do you think such a child would be styled HRH and made a Prince as is the right of a grandchild of a sovereign?


Neil

I think that if Wallis and David had children, they would''ve been styled HRH Prince/ss X/Y of Windsor. Just like the children of The Duke of York. Wallis, however, was unable to bare a child, because of an abortion earlier in her life.

 

[neil31uk]

Hi Bobby,

There was a big issue when he abdicated as technically when he abdicated he forfeit all his titles, including all his titles as Knight of the Garter etc. Evidence for this is that he had to be readmitted into all these orders of chivalry after the abdication by his brother. The question was then, had he forfeit his status as a prince or did he retain it as once the son of a king, always the son of a king!

Attached a pic from HM QE II coronation, showing a marvellous array of coronets. The young (just 18 years old) Duke of Kent is in the top left hand corner, wearing a coronet of strawberry leaves and crosses as the grandson of MH KG V.

I''m really enjoying this guys, your a great source of information.

Neil

 

[neil31uk]

I think that if Wallis and David had children, they would''ve been styled HRH Prince/ss X/Y of Windsor. Just like the children of The Duke of York. Wallis, however, was unable to bare a child, because of an abortion earlier in her life.[/quote]



I think your right, it sounds right.

Did you know that the DoW took with him into exile the coronet of the Prince of Wales from 1911 - which required the making of the 1969 coronet for the PoW investiture.

 

[alexander1917]

It was also the first coronation in photography. for the last ones (King Georg V and Edward VII) exists wounderful paintings, showing also the Queens holden the seceptre.

the title "Duke of Windsor" was a created title, so a child could get also an title what I didn''t belive or a more Lady or Sir style or a Hon. This situation is very unclear, and fortunate not necessay.

 

[alexander1917]

Date: 2/18/2010 6:20:11 PM
Author: neil31uk



I think that if Wallis and David had children, they would''ve been styled HRH Prince/ss X/Y of Windsor. Just like the children of The Duke of York. Wallis, however, was unable to bare a child, because of an abortion earlier in her life.

I think your right, it sounds right.

Did you know that the DoW took with him into exile the coronet of the Prince of Wales from 1911 - which required the making of the 1969 coronet for the PoW investiture.[/quote]

When the former King Edward VIII of the United Kingdom went into exile as the Duke of Windsor in 1936, he took with him the Coronet of George, Prince of Wales, a highly controversial – and illegal – act. This coronet had, since 1902, been used by successive Princes of Wales at their investitures, including his own investiture of 1911.

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Date: 2/18/2010 5:54:48 PM
Author: neil31uk
Hi Bobby,


THANK YOU for that much larger picture, you have answered my question, re is it gem set, from this picture it is moulded and engraved to simulate gems.


The Duke of Gloucester's coronet is the same as the DoE's as the DoG was the son of a sovereign and so entitled to the Coronet of a prince. There is a range of coronets int he UK allocated based partly on title and partly on your relation to a sovereign:


1) Coronet with crosses and fleu-de-lys and an arch for the PoW.


2) coronet with crosses and fleu-de-lys for children of the Sovereign.


3) coronet with four fleu-de-lys, two strawberry leaves and two crosses for the grandchildren of the sovereign who are the children of the PoW.


4) coronet with four strawberry leaves and four crosses for other grandchildren of the sovereign.


This last coronet is the pattern used by Royal Dukes by virtue of them being the grandchildren of the sovereign and has been in the past allocated to those becoming a Royal Duke but not a prince by blood. At least I think its been used before, I will look for more evidence to support this.


And your right, its a shame the Imperial Crown of India is no longer used. Maybe HM could be persuaded to take it on tour to a country like Canada where she is also Queen and use it to open parliament there.


Best wishes,


Neil

Thanks for the explanation, Neil! I stand corrected!

PS: I doubt the ICoI will be used any more. It's part of Britain's past and is a kind of an artefact it's place is in the museum/Tower.
ETA - Why shoud The Dominion use a crown created for another, now ex, dominion. And has Elizabeth II ever opened a parliament there?

Bobby