When Families Go Bad

[aljdewey]

"there is a conversation about filet mignon that will live on in infamy in John's and my memory... not to mention the 'naked chair' debacle *shudder*. And I want to avoid all of that."

Gypsy, avoidance is why I think you've been putting this off for so long.

I think it might be realistic to adjust your expectations a tiny bit. I don't think you'll be able to completely avoid 'conflict' (i.e. difference of opinion). I think what you CAN control is minimizing the conflict by refusing to play. My dear, it takes two to tango.

When mom says "OH MY GOD, NAKED CHAIRS???!!! What will people say?", your response could be "Whatever they want, I guess. But, I've decided this is what I'm ok with, and I hope you'll respect my decision." If she comments on it further, let her run out of steam and then say "it's nice that you care, but I'm comfortable with my choice, and it stands." Rinse and repeat....LOL

I do think, in my heart of hearts, that before I can feel comfortable with the stonewalling, and the planning in silence, then sending her an invitation....."

Honestly, I agree with Cara that you don't need to run every last little detail by her. That said, I don't advise the "plan in silence and send her an invite" approach you're thinking of. I think it's the wrong approach because it's AVOIDING. It's not an affirmative action, so your mother interprets as "I will be able to bully her". Here's what I think would be more successful:

YOU: Mom, here's what I've chosen regarding the venue.
MOM: NAKED CHAIRS? OMG, what will people think? Rant of indeterminate length......
YOU: I appreciate your suggestions, but I'm more comfortable with what I've chosen and I'm going to stick with that:
MOM: Rant of indeterminate length two....guilt abounds, etc.
YOU: Thanks for caring and trying to help. Let me tell you about the meal (moving to another subject)...
MOM: Rant 3 about the chairs.
YOU: I'm telling you about these details because I want to share it with you. I'm not looking for approval or agreement with my choices; they are made and I'm happy with them. I love you, and I hope you'll respect my choices.

Notice how all of the above refuses to engage on the details of the disagreement?

When I DO talk to my mom and we discuss how different I am from her, and how different my expectations are for certain things, she does see reason usually--.....It just usually takes me forcing her to really see ME,......I still have a little hope that she'll come around.

Gypsy, the reason you can't force her to 'really see YOU' is because you aren't walking the walk. You can't tell her who you WANT her to see; you have to BE that person, and then she will see it.

You want her trust in your judgment, but you don't trust in it enough to follow it without her approval. You've LET command the show. You've let her run you around on a string; avoiding her, placating her, appealing to her to see it your way.......does that sound like someone who is confident in her choices? At the risk of sounding harsh, she can't be confident in you if YOU aren't confident in you.

I'm not suggesting you say it this exact way, but my dear, the underlying message you need to impress is this:

"This is what I'm doing. If you like it, that's good. If you don't like it, that's good, too. Either way, this is what will be...and how you (mom) handle that is your deal." THE END. Stop putting the "(pause)...........OK?" on the end of your declarations. Declare and follow through, and she WILL see who you are.

What I'm trying to tell you is this: Once she sees BY FACT....BY EXAMPLE that she's not going to be successful in badgering, it will stop. That doesn't mean she won't have opinions....it means she'll tire of endless badgering and lobbying when she realizes it's ineffective.

I think it's just the stupid sentimentality of the wedding, this fairytale idea I have that my mom and I will be happily pouring over color swatches and so forth that I have to ditch.

YES. It would be nice if it could be that way, but it won't. And my dear, it's not that way for a LOT of people. I'm sure you realize that "Leave it to Beaver" wasn't really reflective of most people's home life/childhood. Similarly, I think many gals have this idealized notion that everyone else has wonderful, touching mother-daughter moments during wedding planning and that most people get that "fairytale" experience. The reality is likely far from it....I'd wager most don't have that experience IRL.

Stop fighting about your choices and start doing. Make your plans, tell her what they are, and let HER find a way to come to terms with them. Be gentle but firm, and refuse to engage in debate. (I KNOW this is going to be going against type for you, but leave the debating for the legal side of life.)

Tell her about your plans, and for those times you absolutely can't get her off a tirade, look at your watch and say "I'm sorry, I have a ton of things to get done, so I can't stay. I just wanted to swing by and let you know what I've chosen." And GO. Breathe deeply all the way home, and before you walk in the door, muster up your resolve and let it go.

And accept that it's OK that your mom doesn't like your choice. Oh well....she'll get over. At the end of the day, she's GOING to attend, so let the rest of it go.

 

[decodelighted]

Your Mom is trying to stay enmeshed with you. It''s going to get worse before it gets better. The battle away from an enmeshment is a tough one but keep avoiding it and it will swallow you up Grey Gardens style.

Some definitions:

Enmeshment - In human relationships, this term means two or more people who don''t have clear identities ("This is who I am, as a person") and boundaries (limits) that separate one individual from the other. Thus an enmeshed person can''t distinguish the difference between my needs, feelings, opinions, and priorities and yours. This condition is clear evidence of false-self wounds. (i.e. - your shame is their shame, your physicality reflects on theirs etc)

Codependence -- is a form of enmeshment where the wounded person progressively loses awareness of her or his own needs, feelings, and goals, and focuses consciously on living from those attributes of another person. The roots of this condition (vs. "disease'') seem to be two common false-self wounds: excessive shame and obsessive fear of rejection and abandonment - i.e. terror of being alone. Whole households and families can be enmeshed, in that each person''s life and "business" is seen as being each other member''s business - e.g. everyone listens to each others'' phone calls, and reads other member''s personal mail. A member''s asserting for personal privacy evokes strong criticism, scorn, and resistance from other members - "Why do you feel you need to keep secrets from us?!"

 

[Gypsy]

Argh. So much to think about. Deco, that definition is correct... mom does confuse the two of us, I didn''t realize there was a word for it, and a definition. Hmmm.

Aljd-- Okay, I see your point and in my head know you are right. I am an ostrich when I can''t deal with something... I stick my head in the sand and hope people are too blind to see that my arse is hanging out. I''m going to have to take some time to work through this. It''s really REALLY not easy. Lots of perception shifts, and big girl pants, and confidence stuff. Big stuff. That apparently, can''t be avoided much longer (though you KNOW I''d avoid them if I could). Thank you for all your insight and your time (all of you, actually)... I''ll get it together, but I think it''s going to take a little time.

 

[diamondfan]

Gypsy, setting boundaries is very tough. Some people never master it at all. Then they are doomed into a dance with the people around them that is unpleasant for all concerned. She has a right to her views, as do you. YOU ARE NOT HER. You are a competent adult, living your life. While you can SHARE things with her, your choices and decisions are not about HER. She needs to know that. I am sad that you feel you are an odd duck...to each his own in this world, you do not have to like get togethers bi weekly nor do you have to be the life of the party. I would assume she loves you no matter what even if she would prefer that you do things a certain way. She can wish it all she wants, and you also do not have to comply. You can say no nicely and kindly, but you are doing no one any favors if you do not stand firm.

 

[rainydaze]

wow, gypsy, i just read through this thread and i feel for you! you''ve already been given fantastic advice that i myself am going to laminate!

i don''t think there is anything that hasn''t been said that i could add to, except that i can empathize and sometimes that is nice to have.

so much of your experience was similar to my own (and DH''s of course), though for me it was my MIL and FIL who made it difficult. they wanted the big catholic wedding with third cousins and friends of friends of friends of friends (in other words, 300 people just on their side) in attendance. they wanted to puff their feathers and show off, and prove something to the world with our wedding. we wanted an intimate wedding (100 tops) that was fun and joyful and true to our own beliefs and priorities. we were paying for it, though ''if we would do it right they would help pay (bribed us) for it.'' it was a year of bawling and stress and heartache and came down to a conversation where we asked them straight out ''will you support us and come to our wedding and enjoy the day with us regardless of how we decide to do it?'' their response was a cold ''we have to know the details''. that settled that, once and for all.

to save our sanity and our marriage, we had a private ceremony with just my sister, DH''s brother, and my parents. i had the dress and he had the tux, we had the harp music, and it was outside in a forrest setting, and it was lovely. no one knew about it until we sent out announcements afterward, so i guess you could call it a planned elopement. it still took me many years to get over not having the wedding i had dreamed of (and that my DH had been excited about too!) and not having those i loved most there, but it layed the groundwork for our marriage and our relationship with his parents thereafter. they are buttinski''s and it pretty much stopped there. they got the message: we are adults, we are starting OUR life together, we can make the choices that are right for us, and we will not tolerate your control. that became especially important when we had kids, as they know not to impose their parenting, which differs from ours, onto us or our kids, something they would have done had we bowed to their ''way'' with the wedding. (btw, they never considered my family in any of the wedding debacle, and that hurt many people as a result, something that to this day i think they are oblivious to).

it hurt immensely and caused such anger and stress for me. but putting my (our) foot down was the best thing we could have done, and it preserved the beauty and meaning for us of a very significant occasion. i imagine it was a bit easier (though nothing about these types of situations is every easy) for me since it was not my own parents. the tangle of emotions and history must make this so very hard for you and i am so glad that many here have been able to offer you such great advice on how to handle it. stay strong, and know in your heart that in the end what all parents want for their children (hopefully) is happiness - if she sees you truly have that, may her eyes be opened. and may you and your DH have the wedding you have waited so patiently for, with plenty of love and joy and sincerity.