What condition is reasonable to expect for melee stones?

[Kim N]

A couple weeks ago, I posted in the CS forum asking about damaged sapphire melee in a new custom piece from an online jeweler. I subsequently brought the piece to a local jeweler and saw through their loupe that most of the sapphires that did not have eye-visible damage still had facet abrasions.

My question now extends to diamond melee. These are primarily 1-2mm stones (a few were larger), so most of what I saw (small chips, divots on the tables) could only be seen under magnification. One was missing part of the crown.

I was unable to take any clear photos of what I was seeing. The online jeweler now has the piece back and says they aren't seeing what I'm seeing, other than on the most obvious stones. So what condition is reasonable to expect for either the sapphire or diamond melee?

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

I don't think the melee should be damaged like that. All of my pieces with melee (diamond or cs) look nice and clean under 10x, with the exception of one vintage piece. I hope they will make this right for you.

Edited to add that most of my pieces were inspected prior to me buying them. For the snake bracelet I had made, I requested high end melee.

 

[marymm]

Personally I don't think that loupe-clean is a reasonable expectation for melee stones -- unless a specific call-out in the listing or order of course.

I think that eye-clean and free-of-visible-chip melee is reasonable.

If you prefer loupe-clean, the jeweler will have to loupe each melee stone, and almost undoubtedly will have to loupe more stones than required by the project in order to yield the right number of loupe-clean melee -- I don't know what the cost mark-up would be, but depending on the number of melee that could be quite a bit of labor.

 

[Kim N]

@Diamond Girl 21 and @marymm thanks for your thoughts. The order states that the melee are VS, if that helps.

 

[Rfisher]

For brand new items
I hate to say it but I think it depends on what I paid for the item on how I’d feel with what you are describing.
Plus
What it also looks like from vendors macro photos compared to vendors previous products macro photos.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

@Diamond Girl 21 and @marymm thanks for your thoughts. The order states that the melee are VS, if that helps.

I hope some of the experts weigh in. What you described doesn't sound like VS quality to me.

@Rfisher makes a good point about comparing what you are seeing to the macro photos.

 

[Kim N]

Tagging a few other members who've done a lot of custom work and some vendors. @yssie @mrs-b @Cerulean @Karl_K @Rhino @Rockdiamond

 

[Kim N]

For brand new items
I hate to say it but I think it depends on what I paid for the item on how I’d feel with what you are describing.
Plus
What it also looks like from vendors macro photos compared to vendors previous products macro photos.

Yes, that's a good point about the vendor macro photos. However, I haven't seen any macro photos since before a bunch of changes were made. The vendor suspected that the worst of the damage was caused when heat was applied to multiple areas of the piece while making the changes.

 

[lovedogs]

I agree that loupe clean wouldn't be my expectation. But I would absolutely expect it to be eye clean (e.g. no visible chiips or huge issues)

 

[Kim N]

I agree that loupe clean wouldn't be my expectation. But I would absolutely expect it to be eye clean (e.g. no visible chiips or huge issues)

Thanks, lovedogs.

What I'm struggling with especially is the smaller stones that are 1-1.5mm. They're harder to see, period, but that doesn't mean I'm okay with them having chips.

 

[lovedogs]

Thanks, lovedogs.

What I'm struggling with especially is the smaller stones that are 1-1.5mm. They're harder to see, period, but that doesn't mean I'm okay with them having chips.

Totally understand that!

 

[Karl_K]

You would cringe if you saw how melee is treated.
Its scooped with a scoop put in bags with each other and otherwise abused.
This goes for both gemstones and diamonds.
The ones in the fancy boxes were probably scooped at some point too.

gemstone melee - Google Search

diamond melee - Google Search

 

[Karl_K]

So yes in any given lot of melee there are going to be damaged stones, maybe some not even totally cut in the lower priced stuff.
When making higher end stuff they reject the bad ones and use the good ones, low end stuff they use them all.
So it is not uncommon to find mass market goods with damaged stones some more than others.
If I was paying custom prices I would not be happy to get stones with chips or not finished.
Same goes for matching stones in size, make and color mass market it don't happen much..
Mass market if its eye pretty then I understand that is what I'm paying for, not high end.

 

[Karl_K]

Btw that and the chance of small stones breaking is why no one wants to mess with customer supplied stones.

 

[Kim N]

You would cringe if you saw how melee is treated.
Its scooped with a scoop put in bags with each other and otherwise abused.
This goes for both gemstones and diamonds.
The ones in the fancy boxes were probably scooped at some point too.

gemstone melee - Google Search

diamond melee - Google Search

Oof, I did know that's how they're stored but it's still hard to look at.

So yes in any given lot of melee there are going to be damaged stones, maybe some not even totally cut in the lower priced stuff.
When making higher end stuff they reject the bad ones and use the good ones, low end stuff they use them all.
So it is not uncommon to find mass market goods with damaged stones some more than others.
If I was paying custom prices I would not be happy to get stones with chips or not finished.
Same goes for matching stones in size, make and color mass market it don't happen much..
Mass market if its eye pretty then I understand that is what I'm paying for, not high end.

Thanks, Karl, that gives me a bit of a baseline for expectation. Would you say expecting no chips would be true even for smaller 1-1.5mm stones which pretty much require a loupe to see clearly in the first place? I definitely paid custom pricing. The vendor provided all the stones.

The problem is that the vendor says they don't see the same issues I saw. If they were local to me, I could be there in person and point out what I saw (and tone and communication are so much easier in person), but they're remote and I wasn't able to take clear photos. They asked me to mark the problem stones with a pen, so I did. I'm feeling kind of foolish that I picked the wrong vendor for this project.

 

[Karl_K]

Thanks, Karl, that gives me a bit of a baseline for expectation. Would you say expecting no chips would be true even for smaller 1-1.5mm stones which pretty much require a loupe to see clearly in the first place? I definitely paid custom pricing. The vendor provided all the stones.

The problem is that the vendor says they don't see the same issues I saw.

I would not be happy with chips even at that size but lets see what some of the jewelers say.
@Wink @Garry H (Cut Nut) @Rockdiamond

More than likely they see it but consider it normal so they don't see an issue.

 

[yssie]

Oyyy.

Okay so I don’t have a ton of pave TBH…

My VCA, Cartier, and Tiffany diamond and sapphire melee is pristine. Loupe-clean in terms of both inclusions and external abrasions, etc.

My Leon Mege, CvB, and Erika Winters melee - again diamonds and sapphires - similarly pristine. I’ve louped my pieces from these vendors and actually posted macro pics here on PS for some of them!

I would be displeased to find chips on a brand new custom piece with melee. But I tell you what, I would be exceedingly unhappy if I brought the issue to my vendor’s attention and he or she “didn’t see the problem” after I expressed that it was a problem for me.

I’m sorry you're dealing with this!

 

[Kim N]

I would be displeased to find chips on a brand new custom piece with melee. But I tell you what, I would be exceedingly unhappy if I brought the issue to my vendor’s attention and he or she “didn’t see the problem” after I expressed that it was a problem for me.

Thanks, yssie. I completely agree with you on the above. They haven't told me how they'll proceed yet. This jeweler is not at the same price level as any of the jewelers you named. That brings up what Rfisher mentioned earlier. I don't expect loupe-clean finish like you've shown in your pieces, but I do want undamaged stones. That may be too much to ask, if Karl's right.

 

[luckygreen317]

I have been hesitant about purchasing melee for the concerns over either chipped or lower quality. I am looking for a reputable resource for well cut rounds brilliants and rose cut melee, earth mined or lab grown. Any suggestions from the PS forum most appreciated.

 

[Rfisher]

I am very curious to see if any trade folk chime in if it’s typical that designated VS melee at the sizes you’ve stated would be considered ok to have chips, nicks and divots visible with a loupe. It’s not like you are louping looking for a feather or crystal inclusion.
Whether it’s their in-house brand, or national brands they carry - if there’s a difference.

Out of more curiosity, @Kim N
Aside from the chips/nicks…..are the melee nicely performing/ nice clarity or are they all over more looking like they should be SI level melee?

I don’t have a ton of melee experience, like others.
SI level melee is what I have on a micro eternity band from Zina that’s in that size range. One of their listing photo shows the stone quality pretty accurately to what I received, more than another photo they show that seems pretty generous in all over quality. Mine has approx one out of every 10 has a Nick/chip/divot, and it came that way. The ring was $350 a few years ago - and I feel that price is fair. They aren’t absolutely horrible looking stones at all, as an overall product statement.
There’s a few national designer brands that aren’t exactly the same but carry a ring that’s similar in size - and they designate VS melee, and are around $1200. I wonder how many nicks/chips/divots are acceptable in those?
I don’t think I’d feel that was acceptable if that’s what was the reality, getting numerous nicks and chips - but jeez I just don’t know if that’s appropriate to feel that way or not?
Or would the price need to be closer to a 2.2k Leon to get VS with absolutely no chips and nicks?

I think your question(s) are absolutely fair!

 

[Kim N]

I am very curious to see if any trade folk chime in if it’s typical that designated VS melee at the sizes you’ve stated would be considered ok to have chips, nicks and divots visible with a loupe. It’s not like you are louping looking for a feather or crystal inclusion.
Whether it’s their in-house brand, or national brands they carry - if there’s a difference.

Out of more curiosity, @Kim N
Aside from the chips/nicks…..are the melee nicely performing/ nice clarity or are they all over more looking like they should be SI level melee?

I don’t have a ton of melee experience, like others.
SI level melee is what I have on a micro eternity band from Zina that’s in that size range. One of their listing photo shows the stone quality pretty accurately to what I received, more than another photo they show that seems pretty generous in all over quality. Mine has approx one out of every 10 has a Nick/chip/divot, and it came that way. The ring was $350 a few years ago - and I feel that price is fair. They aren’t absolutely horrible looking stones at all, as an overall product statement.
There’s a few national designer brands that aren’t exactly the same but carry a ring that’s similar in size - and they designate VS melee, and are around $1200. I wonder how many nicks/chips/divots are acceptable in those?
I don’t think I’d feel that was acceptable if that’s what was the reality, getting numerous nicks and chips - but jeez I just don’t know if that’s appropriate to feel that way or not?
Or would the price need to be closer to a 2.2k Leon to get VS with absolutely no chips and nicks?

I think your question(s) are absolutely fair!

It looks like most of my melee started off as VS clarity and nicely cut, which is what I paid for. Your questions are exactly what I'm curious about. I agree if I had only paid several hundred dollars, I wouldn't mind flaws (external or internal) in a number of stones. This piece is well over any of the amounts you mentioned, but is very pave-intensive. I'm hoping some of the trade folk will join in as well.

 

[Kim N]

Tagging @Texas Leaguer @denverappraiser @oldminer

 

[Rfisher]

This piece is well over any of the amounts you mentioned, but is very pave-intensive.

I kept my example comparison as apples to apples as I could - but I did assume from some details your project was a bit more involved than a super simple eternity band.

If we are talking like a pave bombe /cobblestone or something like that -especially custom - yeah the lower floor levels of skilled work/materials is still going to be a over a few thousand dollars. Not chump change - but it ultimately may really be so compared to what a higher skilled bench outcome would achieve/charge for something similar.

ETA: especially since you are thinking the melee started off like they were nice VS…. And yes it’s an assumption but……

Hope whatever it is works out for you, hopefully keeping the details out if it here gives the trade members ability to chime in, and that can help you in some way.

 

[Kim N]

Bumping to see if any trade members have any comments.

Or if anyone has advice for when a vendor disagrees with what you see.

 

[catia]

The condition you should expect is the condition the vendor stated it was because THEIR PROFESSIONAL STATEMENT alone set your expectation for the finished product.
IMHO, if you ordered a brand spankin new custom ring & the vendor specified their finished product would include all VS melee to you, they bear the responsibility in putting their product where their mouth is & making sure they provided you with exactly what they stated it is.
VS would command more time in sorting, meaning a bit more in price. It is part of what you were paying for.
The vendor set the expectation. Saying they do not see them doesn't change the fact that chips/nicks are there. You saw them, another jeweler saw them.

GIA states:

What is a VS diamond?​

A VS diamond contains minor inclusions that range from difficult (VS1) to somewhat easy (VS2) to see at 10× magnification. Many different types of inclusions are possible, but they must be very small relative to the size of the diamond. Typical inclusions that might set the grade include some crystals, knots or distinct clouds, or minor surface-reaching features such as a feather, cavity or indented natural. In very rare cases, a large VS stone might contain an eye-visible inclusion.

VVS Diamond versus VS Diamond: What’s the Difference in Diamond Clarity?

Learn the difference between a VVS diamond (Very Very Slightly included) and a VS diamond (Very Slightly included) to recognize quality and good value.

4cs.gia.edu