War in the Middle East

[miraclesrule]

If this topic is against forum rules, feel free to delete it.

I have been collecting data on the trauma of this war vs. the Vietnam war. No matter how I try to marshal evidence, it appears that no agency tracks the true data. For instance, the government will tell us how many American soldiers commit suicide but those numbers only reflect those who are actively deployed. The number of personnel who commit suicide after they return home are not counted.

But I was surprised to read this article today...which is so brief it barely makes a blip on the radar...and of course, they are no hard numbers. Although if a person where good at evading a 2nd, 3rd and 4th tour of duty, hopefuly they wouldn''t be caught.

Actually, before I post this link to the Newsweek article, I think it''s important for most people to know that they do site the high suicide rate, but it''s what they don''t tell you that frustrates me. Because so many more of our soldiers are coming back with severe injuries (back in Vietnam days the medical response wasn''t as proficient, so most severely injured soldiers died). I digress...

Because the military won''t institute a draft (that would put the war on the front page and the public would stage a nationwide revolt), they have had to call up all reservists. Well, it''s one thing to be an active military personnel and another to be a reservist. The latter are usualy older, have started families and have decent paying jobs. Once they have to go over to Iraq or Afganistan, the income is gone and the family falls apart for many reasons, most of which are financial and emotional. Most of the reservists only practiced military skills 2 weekends a year. That hardly prepares them for war.

Anyway, I don''t want to rant, because it''s too frustrating for me to type the casualties of war that nobody even begins to think about unless it affects them, but this is what our men will go through to avoid it...

http://www.newsweek.com/id/140478

 

[MoonWater]

Thanks for posting. This kind of stuff makes me cry. I have three younger brothers, each of them had to (and will have to for the youngest) sign up for selective service before receiving aid for college. When my oldest brother did it I was annoyed due to the sexism of the system and of course, I never wanted my brothers to go to war. But I also thought, what are the chances it would ever get to the point that we'd need them. Well, with the way things are going, I'm actually scared that day could come. This of course makes me even more angry because what type of people typically need financial help from the government in order to pay for school? What group is this system biased against?

ETA: All men from 18-25 are required, but it's very easy to buck the system unless you need aid for school. Just wanted to put that out there before someone commented.

 

[coatimundi_org]

The Winter Soldier Hearings
posted this on the Obama Speech thread.

This did not get a blip in the mainstream media. And none of the candidates attended, well, except Dennis Kucinich.
So sad.

 

[strmrdr]

I have several friends over in the sandbox or that have been there.
Everything from privates to officers.
The suicide rate overall isn''t up according to them.
The biggest cause is still relationship breakups just like it always has been.
A soldier both male and female comes back and find their so sleeping with someone else and kills themselves.
That happens after deployments but it also happens after weekend FX and when a unit is moved from one base to another.
For example peace time deployments to Germany have seen many soldiers commit suicide on their return.
They are on the look out for it and always have been but some people are really good at hiding it and sadly don''t get help in time.
The military takes it seriously and the patient information is confidential and is left off the record(sealed) except under specific conditions so the troops will try and get help without worrying about destroying their career.

 

[movie zombie]

storm, the experience of those you know in iraq and/or afganistan is not the opinon of all that are there and/or have come home: http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php. i in no way mean to belittle the experience or opinion of those you know that are serving in iraq.....but they do not speak for all vets and these vets have paid the price to be heard as well.

i think it is an over simplification to say that the suicides are the result of problems with so''s being ............ and thus far i don''t think this administration has even come close to providing the medical care it should have known would be needed and after all these years, there should have been some improvement in services. however, i also blame congress....republican at time....that with the help of elected democrats reduced benefits/services for vets not more than two days after iraq was invaded. and i still don''t see this congress....now with a dem majority.....doing enough for vets.

its a mess and i''m not sure that anyone is ever going to make it ok.

movie zombie

 

[FrekeChild]

Did anyone see the newest TIME cover? It''s about how soldiers are being put on Prozac to deal with battlefield stress...haven''t read it yet...

 

[miraclesrule]

I think if I was keeping the stats, those suicides would still be under a category for proximal cause.
After all, many women just can''t, and never expected to, especially with reservists, to have their life completely fall apart. Some women think they can handle it, but it turns out they can''t. Some women are cheaters, if their husband isn''t in the military...

Yet, I would bet money that a lot of these women did it for sheer survival for them and their children. I can''t imagine what it would be like, even though I was a single mother without financial support. I have always worked and earned my own money to care for us, but if I wasn''t me...and many people are grateful there is only one of me...I don''t know what I would do to ensure a roof over my child/childrens head.

I still say that if it were not for the war, many of those men who committed suicide "because their wife left them", would not have reacted that way. I, again, would bet money on the fact that their experience in combat and deployment made them much more depressed and susceptible to despair.

 

[miraclesrule]

Date: 6/8/2008 9:41:18 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Did anyone see the newest TIME cover? It''s about how soldiers are being put on Prozac to deal with battlefield stress...haven''t read it yet...

OMG!!!... and just when I was going to post in the depression thread that it is provocative to me that women overwhelming are prescribed anti-depressants vs. men.

Oh well, that will save me from a baseless post. I get profoundly sad to see that as a nation, we continue to treat the symptoms and not analyze the root cause and prevent it. My entire career has been spent in preventing losses and root cause analysis, so this kind of news just chaps my hide. In Vietnam, we gave them heroin, now we will just give them "happy pills".

Another thing that bothers me is that if I want to watch the congressional hearings on PSTD, or the many unbelievable problems the military has with recruitment and retention, I have to stay up until after midnight. They never show that in prime time. I really do need to set up my TIVO.

The recruitment hearings were shocking!! The prospective enlistees who could pass the entrance exam, couldn''t pass the physical one and vice versa. So they hired nutrionists, and tutors. Then they lowered the standards for entry (some of which needed changing anyway, like no tattoos)

But then reallllly lowered the bar and started allowing those with arrest records.

Here''s a thought....(sarcasm warning)---> Let''s just send over all our prisoners instead of having them make license plates.

The high ranking officer testifying on recruitment even said that ...I wrote it doen somewhere but I don''t want to look for the exact quote, but basically said that efforts to market the military as an honorable way to serve your country was no longer effective in attracting recruits. Therefore, they lowered the 4 year term to a 2 year term and used an incentive bonus consisting of education grants and 20K to "quick ship". Which means you basically sign up for 2 years, get a college scholarship and 20K if you get through boot camp, fly out, and make it back alive. I am sure there are many other conditions. But all I could sense was serious desperation on the part of the military and Congress.

Many people don''t even realize that it was the underground movement of Vietnam soldiers that eventually helped bring that war to an end. They just started refusing to fight on the ground. That is why we ended that war with a full scale aerial assault. Blech...

 

[ksinger]

The people fighting military recruitment the hardest right now, are parents. I do seem to recall that there have even been some lawsuits filed against the military for coming in and recruiting on highschool grounds. (I''d have to look that back up, it''s been several months since read that, as I recall). It shows the utter dearth of support for the war.

Yes, in general, the government''s response to this war''s aftermath and what will be the continuing cost, is just staggering.
They tap into the public''s collective guilt for Vietnam to keep the war going when they say "Support Our Troops", and yet at every turn the treatment that is reported is shameful. Remember, in the words of the immortal Rumsfeld, "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had". The troops should have fragged him right then... That statement right there still has the power to make my blood completely boil.
As for suicides being only from breakups back home, well that''s not correct, or at least a gross oversimplification. Several friends who''ve been there do not the whole picture make. I suspect most all of us now have "several friends who''ve been there", and as someone said, the idea that suicides have not gone up is not the assessment of every vet. If I''ve learned anything of the military in recent years, it''s that its members hardly march in lockstep once away from the service, neither in view nor experience.

The Washington Post special report (part of it anyway) linked below has the much more nuanced assessment of:

"Suicides among active-duty soldiers in 2007 reached their highest level since the Army began keeping such records in 1980, according to a draft internal study obtained by The Washington Post. Last year, 121 soldiers took their own lives, nearly 20 percent more than in 2006.

At the same time, the number of attempted suicides or self-inflicted injuries in the Army has jumped sixfold since the Iraq war began. Last year, about 2,100 soldiers injured themselves or attempted suicide, compared with about 350 in 2002, according to the U.S. Army Medical Command Suicide Prevention Action Plan."

and...

"...the common factors in suicides and attempted suicides include failed personal relationships; legal, financial or occupational problems; and the frequency and length of overseas deployments."
This is part of the "Beyond Walter Reed" series by the Washington Post, exposing the conditions at Walter Reed, and also basically exposing the reality of the war and how the soldiers are faring in the system. It won the 2008 Seldon Ring award for investigative reporting. It''s huge and has more than most people can stomach. I know I have read some but not all. A resource for those who want a good picture of reality.


Soldier Suicides at Record Level

Combating a Surge in Suicides

 

[miraclesrule]

And remember, those numbers don''t include those not on active-duty, so the ones that come home and kill themselves, apparently are even allowed to be a statistic.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/8/2008 9:32:13 PM
Author: movie zombie
storm, the experience of those you know in iraq and/or afganistan is not the opinon of all that are there and/or have come home: http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php. i in no way mean to belittle the experience or opinion of those you know that are serving in iraq.....but they do not speak for all vets and these vets have paid the price to be heard as well.


i think it is an over simplification to say that the suicides are the result of problems with so''s being <unfaithful>............ and thus far i don''t think this administration has even come close to providing the medical care it should have known would be needed and after all these years, there should have been some improvement in services. however, i also blame congress....republican at time....that with the help of elected democrats reduced benefits/services for vets not more than two days after iraq was invaded. and i still don''t see this congress....now with a dem majority.....doing enough for vets.


its a mess and i''m not sure that anyone is ever going to make it ok.


movie zombie

just to be clear they said biggest cause not only which is what I said.
I''m as ticked off as anyone about cutting benefits and the condition of the va hospitals there is no excuse.
If it where up to me I would double military pay and fix the VA hospitals.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/8/2008 11:30:37 PM
Author: miraclesrule
And remember, those numbers don''t include those not on active-duty, so the ones that come home and kill themselves, apparently are even allowed to be a statistic.

The people that I talked to included those in there comparisons.
The raw numbers are up but compared to deployment and away time its about the same as it always has been.
A lot of them were in Desert Storm 1 and they say it was worse than now after it.

 

[movie zombie]

vietnam not also saw the troops on the ground refusing to fight, it saw the troops killing their own US officers...........

movie zombie

 

[stryeyes102]

As far as wives cheating on their SO''s.. That isn''t always the case. Heck, Sometimes these men even come home with std''s and thats why their wives or girlfriends leave.

Tons of them are dealing with ptsd and major depression which cause their suicide... Simply because they are not getting the help that they so desperately need! The highest problem with incoming vets from the Iraq war is PTSD.. There are simply not enough psychiatrist''s to help them all. Those who are helping them are coming down with a form of survivors guilt and need therapy themselves. Its a horrible cycle.

Also, as far as reservist go, they are paid for their service. When these men and women are called up they become active duty, with a base pay. So in all technical sense the women are not really living off no income, but perhaps a reduced income. Because reservist aren''t being paid base pay when on non active status their wives most likely would have jobs themselves. So income shouldn''t be a problem. Especially because the military does pay out for dependents; wives and kids earn the active member more money each month.


I am sorry if any of this sounds pissy.. It was not meant to be that way. Simply trying to get my thoughts down. Just remember that not all military wives or girlfriends are the same. Some of us have back bones and are tough to the core. We are not always the root of the problem, nor the cause. So please dont lump us all together.


*quick ship* is actually something some people do find attractive. Many guys do not want to wait around for months before they leave for boot, so this is what they do. (not saying its right) It also gives them more money for college because they are leaving right away instead of waiting. For those without families, sometimes they just want a new start and this gives them that.

 

[miraclesrule]

First, I hear you on the fact that reservists aren''t being forced to active deployment without any renumeration. I know they get paid. My point was that they don''t get paid nearly the amount that they were receiving in the private sector. Not even close. And once a family has a certain standard of living, a sudden loss of income can pull the rug right out from under them. With the families that I interviewed that was the case.

I didn''t meet one reservist who made more money once actived into duty. Not one.

I''m sure there are some out there...perhaps even some that were unemployed at the time and wanted to be activated so they could earn a wage, but I would bet that they were mostly comprised of single men and not those with families and financial responsibilities.

PTSD is not preventable. It can be denied...and most often is...by the system and the ones who suffer from it. It is not considered masculine to admit that you have been traumatized by the war. Denial often times results in the worst case scenario...a suicide.

But you are right about it being a huge problem. War is a huge problem. It''s time that we learn how to evolve and progress by using our intelligence to resolve conflict in a more civilized manner. It''s almost as if Americans are stuck in the same old past as the members of Al-Qeida....lost in a time and era not suited to the evolution of our species.

 

[ladypirate]

Suicide isn't even always the worst part of PTSD...this isn't from the current war, but my grandfather suffered such awful PTSD from WWII that he would wake up screaming in the middle of the night until he passed away in 1990. He started drinking to dull the memories, stopped working, drank his way through any inheritance his kids might have had (he owned houses all over Los Angeles and sold them all to feed his drinking habits), ruined his marriage and caused his kids, especially the youngest, my dad's sister, immeasurable trauma.

How can you even measure something like that? And that was when the returning veterans were the heroes of the day, not a subject to be avoided.

ETA: Has anyone read this article from the nation: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070409/kors ? There's a follow up as well. It talks about how the army is basically forcing people to say that they had a preexisting personality disorder after they are injured so they don't have to give them any benefits. It's so screwed up.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 6/12/2008 11:53:47 PM
Author: miraclesrule
It''s almost as if Americans are stuck in the same old past as the members of Al-Qeida....lost in a time and era not suited to the evolution of our species.

may i have your permission to use that as a quote?

it is so well stated.

movie zombie

 

[miraclesrule]

Date: 6/17/2008 4:10:13 PM
Author: movie zombie

Date: 6/12/2008 11:53:47 PM
Author: miraclesrule
It''s almost as if Americans are stuck in the same old past as the members of Al-Qeida....lost in a time and era not suited to the evolution of our species.

may i have your permission to use that as a quote?

it is so well stated.

movie zombie

Sure you can use it!! But you might want to spell Al-Qeida correctly. I don''t think I did.

Sometimes I do rattle off something useful.

 

[LaraOnline]

This is an interesting topic. I am not a US citizen, but surely the horrors of war are universal

My grandfather was a pilot on naval landing ships in WW2. One night his boat was torn apart and all the loaded infantrymen sank directly to the bottom. He was the only one who survived the attack, with terrible injuries.
He woke screaming from nightmares until his death.

One of my closest male friends from school joined the infantry, and was mad keen on it. He served through peace time and loved the life style, working his way up the ranks and training other servicemen.

He was so excited to go into active service for the first time...and bitterly disappointed when he missed out in the first round...
(East Timor peace keeping force)

He came back an entirely changed man, and has required close personal psychiatric / psychological counselling ever since.

Active service is literally anti-human, and must knock the humans around, non?

 

[miraclesrule]

Gosh Laura, I''m so sorry about your Grandfather and your close friend.

It doesn''t have to be this way. I know everyone says war is necessary, and there may times when that is true. But we have evolved as a species and we are collectively capable and intelligent enough to utilize evolving ways of non-violent conflict resolution before threats escalate into armed conflct.

Unfortunately, our economy and our governments have relied too much on war and built a regime around protecting that ideology. There is virutally no funding for prevention or dealing with the casualties of war, but boy o'' boy do we come up with the money to wage the wars.

So, today I will go to a bbq because we have the day off to celebrate our Independence Day. I hope I live to see the day that we can all celebrate our global interdependence.

 

[LaraOnline]

It''s funny that you mention that ''everyone says war is necessary'', Miracles Rule.
I know it''s a cultural thing, but it doesn''t seem a sentiment that has great public currency in Australia.

We seem to prefer to stick our heads in the sand, and pretend that war is NOT necessary.
Our press indulges in an awful lot of handwringing in relation to war...perhaps because our media tends to measure news according to how it violates principles of ''equality''...

Any form of perceived ''inequality'' is met with great media interest here. (eg racism, particularly against Aborigines and recent migrants, sometimes sexism, and also economic inequality, we love discussing welfare policy...)

Perhaps its a patriotism thing...Australians are not really educated to be patriotic, there''s not a lot of flags flying a lot of the time. Our dialogue in the press tends to revolve around how ''discriminatory'' various policies are...which leads to a different attitude about world events as well, I guess

 

[miraclesrule]

Lara: We spend a lot of time on discrimination too. A lot of time and money. I don''t think our news is news anymore. It''s sensationalism and scandal. It''s about getting everyone worked up one or the other...which causes further division. You won''t even find our news discussing the war or the soldiers anymore. Not at all. It just isn''t "sexy", so they don''t even bother.

For real news, I have to go to the internet for alternative sources.

Do you feel that there is a big problem in Australia with those issues?

I remember that when I first bought my house, I didn''t really have money for anything else because I had also just bought my first "brand new" car and was putting my daughter through college

Therefore, I spent a lot of time on the computer. I learned what lol, lmao and brb meant. Anyway, I stumbled upon a chat room full of funny, amazing women. Women Online Worldwide. I didn''t even know the defination of aborigine. I just pictured someone from a tribe on the pages of National Geographic, and through ignorance, I accidently insulted someone in Canada. We are good friends now, but she had to educate me. It made me realize just how igorant some of us are in good ''ole US of A.

 

[LaraOnline]

thank heavens you wrote back in this thread, Miracles!
I thought I''d killed it

One (extremely famous) US journalist once summed up the Australian media scene thus:
''too many journos, not enough stories'' ... well, in so many words, anyway!

I''m interested that you hear your news is processed through the ''equality'' filter as well... now I know that the US is more egalitarian in its cultural heritage than, say, Britain, but I considered that to be based in an unshakeable confidence in capitalism... as in, ''work hard and you''ll make it..''

Australians are generally much more suspicious of the capitalist, and are constantly calling for checks and balances (read: government taxes) on business and high income earners. That''s probably why I''m on a US - based jewellery forum!
Honestly, I''m ashamed to say that I use my internet connection to browse endlessly, and I am honestly astonished at the quality , and low cost, of merchandise from the US!

But yes, whenever I experience US-based media, I feel suffocated, there is a sense of the media''s total immersion within the ''universe'' of the United States! General media focus does seem extremely inward looking (to me)...

Perhaps it is a reflection of the growing number of women in the workforce, but we in Australia also tend to spend a lot of newspaper inches on ''work-life balance''. Journalists here are fond of using Norwegian welfare examples of what Australia should become...

As a former newspaper journalist myself, I can comfortably say that most Aussie journalists seem to be very highly idealistic, politically minded individuals whose idea of a ''perfect'' society is rather influenced by the ''no-experience idealism'' of a financially supported student life!

Since we became small business owners, my politics has changed incredibly, and is now much more of the ''self-help'' variety.

But I am sorry if this is OT!