Til death do you part.

[Upgradable]

Is this concept almost passe''?

Hubby and I have been married almost 22 years, my folks 47 yrs, his 53. A member of church passed away this week and his wife talked about making sure to value every day with your spouse (they were married 45 years). My daughter and I were talking and she was mentioning several of her friends parents who have split. I later was discussing the funeral with a friend of mine who is on her third marriage, and it got me thinking about how people, or do people think about this when planning marriage.

I know people don''t go into a marriage assuming divorce, but it is true that second marriages have a higher rate of divorce than first marriages. Is there different mindsets toward marriage out there. I really hope I''m not offending anyone, because that is not my intention, but I''m just wondering what other''s thoughts are.

 

[AGBF]

I don''t think it is passé, but I know that I opted to leave it out of my wedding vows. Our minister asked us to write our own wedding service. Instead of using, "until death do you part", I used, "throughout your married lives", leaving open the possibility that our marriage might end and our vows terminate before the death of one of us. I felt that that was realistic.


Deborah

 

[iheartscience]

Well my parents have been married for forty years, so I certainly believe marriage is "until death do you part." With that said, if something changed in my relationship and I was miserable, counseling didn''t help, etc., of course I would get a divorce. I don''t think anyone really likes divorce, but it happens. I think most people would rather be divorced than be miserable.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/13/2008 8:01:32 PM
Author:Upgradable

I know people don''t go into a marriage assuming divorce, but it is true that second marriages have a higher rate of divorce than first marriages. Is there different mindsets toward marriage out there. I really hope I''m not offending anyone, because that is not my intention, but I''m just wondering what other''s thoughts are.

they say....the first time a woman marry for love

the second time she marry for money.

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 7/13/2008 9:07:41 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady
I certainly didn''t expect to be divorced 17 1/2 years after I said my vows. However, domestic abuse certainly wasn''t something I''d considered either.. enough was certainly enough.


Honestly, I don''t believe ''til death you part'' was in our vows almost two years ago. I certainly don''t plan on divorce.. I abhor it.

Hello San Diego Lady! More power to you!
The fact is, many people are not ''highly evolved'' enough in their character to actually cope with ''death to us part''. And the poor schmucks that marry them must therefore tolerate the intolerable, or make the best decision and leave.

In other cases, many (other) people do divorce for fairly trivial reasons...

Our current society does not place a high value on family, or meaningful sex. Therefore, the divorce rate will be much, much higher.

I guess one benefit of that is that people who [/b]do[/b] have a legitimate reason to divorce will have much less stigma attached to them, going forward.

Dancing Fire, I feel kind of bad about that old saying..it is obviously unfair in the case of people who have legitimate abuse issues behind their reason to divorce.

I also think this statement is out of date, because many people have in-depth relationships before getting married...so who''s to say a woman''s not still in love with her first boyfriend? lol

 

[Linda W]

I divorced my first husband after 5 years, for the same reason San Diego Lady did. Domestic Violence. He was a Police Officer, who was also a bully. He thought it was OK to smack me anytime he felt like it.

I have been married to my second husband for going on 28 years. He is the love of my life and I know we will be together until "death do us part". My parents were married for 60 years, until my wonderful father passed away almost 4 years ago.

Linda

 

[Linda W]

Upgradable: Where in the world did you hear that second marriages have a higher rate of divorce????

Most of our friends are on their second marriages and couldn''t be happier. Like DH and I, they have been married for 27+ years and this is their second marriage.


Linda

 

[Upgradable]

Thanks for posting. I hit ''submit'' and then broke into a cold sweat worrying that I''d offend.

I NEVER think abuse is okay! I cannot even imagine what a horror it would be to live through that. I have a wonderfully supportive husband who is truly the best man I can ever imagine being married to! Due to that I may be a little naive, but I see people that bad mouth their spouses, or aren''t truthful with them, or are so incredibly focused on keeping "score" with their spouses that they''re continually talking divorce. I just don''t know why they decided to get married (sometimes repeatedly) with this mindset?

As for the statistics on second+ marriages, I''m not sure about where I heard this (and I HATE when people quote statistics without the corresponding data), but I''ll take a look for it.

 

[LaurenThePartier]

Date: 7/13/2008 10:43:12 PM
Author: Linda W
Upgradable: Where in the world did you hear that second marriages have a higher rate of divorce????

Most of our friends are on their second marriages and couldn''t be happier. Like DH and I, they have been married for 27+ years and this is their second marriage.


Linda

It''s great to hear that you''ve found happiness in your second marriage, but there are various studies that increase your chance of divorce exponentially with each marriage.

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml

This is an interesting statistic about anniversaries. . . but I think speaks more to our more recent tendancy to marry later in life, a bit more than it does for the high rate of divorce.

Percentage of married people who reach their 5th, 10th, and 15th anniversaries:
5th: 82%
10th: 65%
15th: 52%

Percentage of married people who reach their 25th, 35th, and 50th anniversaries:
25th: 33%
35th: 20%
50th: 5%

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 7/13/2008 10:38:45 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady

OMG that is so untrue!! LOL Both of our exes took everything and then some. We each literally started all over again with a big ZERO.

I believe you are about as happily married as you determine you want to be. I also believe people can create their own drama unnecessarily..

I think (my opinion here) that marriage is taken VERY lightly anymore (not always, but so often) and that it is very easy to simply ''walk away''. In my case, my last hospital visit was the straw that broke the camel''s back AND it was the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life. Abuse is NEVER ok. Valid reasons are understandable.. but because you are bored in your routine with your hunny (dh''s friend did this) is just kind of not- to me.

I know many couples married who are in their oh, 60s-80s and one couple in particular I knew (her husband recently passed away) stayed married through thick and thin for 65 years. I know several who have been happily married for 40 plus years.. I applaud the couples I hear Paul Harvey salute who have been married 70 years or more.. and I love to read about the lives of similar people. They simply shrug off the small stuff because being together and growing old together was just more important.

I''d like to think longevity is not a thing of the past.

I soooo agree with your post Michelle!!

 

[Linda W]

I still don''t understand where they get this garbage from.

I married DH when I was almost 32. Same age as my friends too. All are happy. Maybe we are just the lucky ones.

 

[Elmorton]

DH's parents are divorced (mine are not), so divorce was something we discussed a lot prior to marriage. Both of us believe that our vows are sacred and finite, though we also see divorce as a final option in an extreme circumstance. We did have the "until we are parted by death" in our 2nd (religious) ceremony. I should note also that part of our vows together were to recognize that we would face difficulties and that we would communicate and support each other through them - in other words, we intend to prevent those extreme circumstances from happening.

On the same topic, our priest also counseled us to figure out what our "leave you in the ditch" factor is - DH and I had always said that abuse was something neither of us would tolerate (substance, physical, emotional) though we would both want to try to work through it, so both of us initially thought that's what our priest meant, but the example he gave was in how we treat each other - recognizing patterns that we'd experienced during childhood or adult that we wouldn't tolerate in our own marriage. The example that my priest gave was if, after arguments, if his partner emotionally shut him out, he could not continue in such a relationship. It actually took us awhile after we were married to figure out what these factors were for us, but we eventually found 'em through trial and error and communicated with each other and worked to stop the behaviors that were destructive. I think this is something that many newlyweds don't think about and what can ultimately lead to divorce. We do think about the extremes - infidelity, abuse, etc, but we don't think about the every day interaction and how we can affect our partner through seemingly minor behaviors.

---I also thought 2nd marriages tend to last longer (learning from mistakes)? DH's dad and step-mom have now been married longer than they were with their first marriages, though I do know quite a few people on #3...

 

[Miranda]

Date: 7/13/2008 11:09:16 PM
Author: Skippy123

Date: 7/13/2008 10:38:45 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady

OMG that is so untrue!! LOL Both of our exes took everything and then some. We each literally started all over again with a big ZERO.

I believe you are about as happily married as you determine you want to be. I also believe people can create their own drama unnecessarily..

I think (my opinion here) that marriage is taken VERY lightly anymore (not always, but so often) and that it is very easy to simply ''walk away''. In my case, my last hospital visit was the straw that broke the camel''s back AND it was the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life. Abuse is NEVER ok. Valid reasons are understandable.. but because you are bored in your routine with your hunny (dh''s friend did this) is just kind of not- to me.

I know many couples married who are in their oh, 60s-80s and one couple in particular I knew (her husband recently passed away) stayed married through thick and thin for 65 years. I know several who have been happily married for 40 plus years.. I applaud the couples I hear Paul Harvey salute who have been married 70 years or more.. and I love to read about the lives of similar people. They simply shrug off the small stuff because being together and growing old together was just more important.

I''d like to think longevity is not a thing of the past.

I soooo agree with your post Michelle!!

Me too!

Huge kudos to you brave women that stood up for yourselves and got out of abusive relationships!!!!

 

[Linda W]

Date: 7/13/2008 11:14:15 PM
Author: Elmorton
DH''s parents are divorced (mine are not), so divorce was something we discussed a lot prior to marriage. Both of us believe that our vows are sacred and finite, though we also see divorce as a final option in an extreme circumstance. We did have the ''until we are parted by death'' in our 2nd (religious) ceremony. I should note also that part of our vows together were to recognize that we would face difficulties and that we would communicate and support each other through them - in other words, we intend to prevent those extreme circumstances from happening.


On the same topic, our priest also counseled us to figure out what our ''leave you in the ditch'' factor is - DH and I had always said that abuse was something neither of us would tolerate (substance, physical, emotional) though we would both want to try to work through it, so both of us initially thought that''s what our priest meant, but the example he gave was in how we treat each other - recognizing patterns that we''d experienced during childhood or adult that we wouldn''t tolerate in our own marriage. The example that my priest gave was if, after arguments, if his partner emotionally shut him out, he could not continue in such a relationship. It actually took us awhile after we were married to figure out what these factors were for us, but we eventually found ''em through trial and error and communicated with each other and worked to stop the behaviors that were destructive. I think this is something that many newlyweds don''t think about and what can ultimately lead to divorce. We do think about the extremes - infidelity, abuse, etc, but we don''t think about the every day interaction and how we can affect our partner through seemingly minor behaviors.


---I also thought 2nd marriages tend to last longer (learning from mistakes)? DH''s dad and step-mom have now been married longer than they were with their first marriages, though I do know quite a few people on #3...

Elmorton: So do I. My ex is on number 4

I was wife number 1

 

[MonkeyPie]

I didn''t even know what divorce WAS until I was about 15 years old. My parents have been together for 30+ years and they never even fought in front of me or my brother. (Or much at all, for that matter.) DH''s parents got divorced when he was very small though, but his mom is remarried to a much better man (a pastor). In his mothers case, his dad was cheating while she was at the hospital GIVING BIRTH TO MY DH. So yeah...he deserved to be ditched

That still makes me angry just to think about.

We got married by a judge so we didn''t have the "til death do you part" bit in our vows, but I believe in them and so does DH.

 

[Linda W]

ha ha ha ha ha Michelle. Yes, I supposed if he had teeth, it would be helpful. You are so funnnnny.


Linda

 

[jewelerman]

I want to say how great it is that the ladies who were abused had the strenth to leave the men who abuse...so many women dont have the strenth to walk out of an abusive marriage.

In my religion we dont use the words "til dealth do you part" because we believe that if the spouses are true and faithful to each other then the marriage bond is eternal and not just until death.

 

[Upgradable]

Jewelerman, does your faith make room for remarriage for a widow/widower?

 

[diamondfan]

I do not want to say it is passe, but with the rate of divorce being what it is it seems to be elastic for sure. I think, back in the day, divorce was a shocker, a scandal, and not at all taken lightly. Decades ago, when fewer women worked outside the home, leaving a man was a tough one, especially if children were involved. Women could not easily get jobs back then, and men sort of ruled the roost and the thought of picking up and leaving was almost unheard of.

I would not stay to the death with someone who beat me, abused me verbally, serially cheated on me, hurt my children, was a criminal, or did not provide for us in a reasonable manner (i.e. gambled his paycheck and spent it on alcohol etc). There are ebbs and flows in a marriage, good times, crap times, so I know that even in less wonderful times I am in it for the long haul barring any of the things I mentioned above. I could not stay with someone I did not trust or that I did not respect or that I was afraid of.

 

[jewelerman]

Upgradeable,
Yes re-marriage is allowed when there is the loss of a spouce and in the case of divorce.

 

[HollyS]

Marriage (or divorce) should not be taken lightly. In some Christian denominations, we believe that the marriage ceremony is a sacrament, and the marriage itself is a sacrament. It is to be nurtured, loved, and respected . . . along with the person you married. It is a covenant between the marriage partners. It is that very sacrificial and covenantial (binding) ceremony that many gay people are fighting so strongly to have the right to do. They understand how important the mere symbolism of that commitment is.

Marriage is not for people who want: a ring. A wedding. A roommate. A child. A provider. A sexual partner. Marriage is for people who want to ''become one'' with their partner.

Divorce will happen. To people who do not share mutual respect, love, or commitment. Divorce is never ''no fault''. One or both are guilty of breaking their covenant with the other.

 

[TravelingGal]

My father died two weeks ago, and my mother was by his side.

They had a marriage that most people would have said should be ended. My father was abusive in their early marriage...I''m sure there were all sorts of reasons. Even I wondered why she stayed with him.

She took care him him for many many years when he got sick, finally only putting him in a nursing home when one day they both collapsed when she was taking him to the hospital (he''s diabetic and no longer had use of his legs and she didn''t have the strength to get him out of the car).

She visited him every day, all day. Liquified food for him and spoon fed him when he could no longer eat solids. Changed his diaper.

In his last days, (when he was able to speak), they talked, and he was full of regrets about their life and their marriage. She told me how much she felt that he did love her...he wanted no other person more by his side. He hated to sleep because he just wanted to look at her since time was so short. The nursing staff often told me that she was the pillar of strength, faithfulness, and love...something they didn''t see very often as old people are often abandoned there to die.

He stopped speaking about 5 days before he died, and didn''t have the strength to open his eyes. We got a call in the morning to come, as he wouldn''t be with us much longer. I got to his bedside to find my mom holding his hand, whispering words of love into his ear, and singing hymns with all the strength her voice could muster so he wouldn''t be afraid to die. She never saw it because she was crying herself, but I saw that he strained to open his eyes for the last time and looked toward her before he took his final breaths and died.

I would never say that a woman should stay in an abusive relationship. But for whatever reason, my mother did and they went through many stages in their marriage. When my father died in her arms, knowing she was faithful and loving until the end, I can honestly say I was so proud of her. She made me realize marriage is a commitment, and that I truly want to be there until death do us part for TGuy...even through the tough times.

 

[Upgradable]

TG- Wow! I''m not sure of what words can even come close to responding in a meaningful way to what you shared. Thank you. I''m glad you were able to be a part of that and can carry it with you forever.

 

[Independent Gal]

My father changes wives like some people change their socks. His current wife has been through even more spouses than he has. She actually had the nerve to tell me right before I got married that I should just expect to end up divorced. Plus, she tried to talk me into marrying my ex-boyfriend because, hey, even if it didn't work out, at least I could have some kids and a comfy life financially. Uh, I don't think so!

On the other hand, my mom and step-dad have been happily married for 27 (28?) years and are definitely together forever. I take them as my role model.

DH and I talked about divorce a lot before we got married because of my father's "example". We agreed that divorce is simply not an option except if there is:

1) abuse
2) addiction or alcoholism that, after many years of helping, encouragin, and supporting, the spouse simply shows no interest in even trying to kick
3) infidelity

Barring those things, come hell or high water, we will work it out. We read several books together about making a marriage work, and we plan to consciously recognize danger signs, work on the relationship, and also recognize that love will ebb and flow and change, and that things won't always be fun & exciting.

Yeah, OK, so we've only been married for 3.5 months! But hey! It's a good start! And going into it with realistic expectations, knowing that it won't always be easy, I think that helps.


Elmorton, what your pastor said about little things is pretty interesting. I'm going to think more about that.

TGal, thanks for sharing that story. It's very moving.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 7/13/2008 11:14:15 PM

Author: Elmorton

---I also thought 2nd marriages tend to last longer (learning from mistakes)?

Although there is a certain logic to this, it isn't true. More second marriages fail than first marriages.

If one looks at it another way, one can see that the first pool of people marrying has never failed at a marriage; the second pool of people marrying has already failed once.

I have read every response and I completely understand that many Pricescopers were married the first time to people they should never have married (perhaps because those people had not yet showed their true colors); learned to be more careful; and were lucky to marry wonderful people the second time around.


Deborah

 

[purrfectpear]

My parents are still married and if it takes "till death do you part" to end it, then a merciful God would have taken one of them. I can honestly say I don''t think I''ve ever seen a more dysfunctional, sad, destructive, marriage. There is no physical abuse, but the verbal abuse is beyond belief

It''s their lives, but it''s been a total waste of some 56 years.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 7/14/2008 8:44:38 AM
Author: purrfectpear
My parents are still married and if it takes ''till death do you part'' to end it, then a merciful God would have taken one of them. I can honestly say I don''t think I''ve ever seen a more dysfunctional, sad, destructive, marriage. There is no physical abuse, but the verbal abuse is beyond belief

It''s their lives, but it''s been a total waste of some 56 years.

This is exactly the type of situation I was thinking about when I responded. I would not be miserable like this for my entire married life-I would just get a divorce.

I don''t want to put words in your mouth, purrfectpear, but I''m sure your parents made their children''s lives miserable to some extent also because you had to witness their verbal abuse and dysfunctional relationship.

 

[Dancing Fire]

back 15-20 yrs ago it was very rare to hear a Chinese couple getting a divorce but now very common.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/14/2008 7:07:29 AM
Author: Independent Gal
My father changes wives like some people change their socks. His current wife has been through even more spouses than he has. She actually had the nerve to tell me right before I got married that I should just expect to end up divorced. Plus, she tried to talk me into marrying my ex-boyfriend because, hey, even if it didn''t work out, at least I could have some kids and a comfy life financially. Uh, I don''t think so!

lucky guy! is he upgrading each time?

 

[krispi]

T-Gal, your story brought tears to my eyes - very inspiring.

I do very much believe that marriage is permanent. (I prefer to say "as long as we both shall live" just because it sounds a little less morbid.) I mentioned my example of my grandparents in the love stories thread. I've always wanted to find a relationship just like theirs.

While I don't believe anyone should stay in an abusive or unfaithful marriage, I have to say that I don't belive in divorce. That might be a little surprising, considering the fact that I am divorced. I've even told people that I thought my ex took the easy way out in filing (and he now agrees - he was trying to run away from his problems). To me, being married means that you do whatever it takes to fight for your relationship and to make it work - counseling, trying different tactics - keep working on it. Despite the fact that my ex was facing mental illness and had cheated on me in the process, I was willing to try and make it work because in the end, I just couldn't turn my back on the promises I had made. He thought it would be easier to run away and start over. Everyone has different circumstances, and you can't make anyone else do something they don't want to do, but to me those vows mean that you try whatever you can try to work it out rather than leaving at the first sign of unhappiness.

I fully intend 110% that my next marriage will be forever.