They should have just forced the women to marry these men

[ruby59]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Yes, you are correct about the anti semetic comment. That was another poster and for that I apologize. But I do feel that you are bashing an entire group or people based on the actions of a few and making hasty judgments about traditions you are not familiar with.

Also, just because some people prefer to be modest or follow certain rites, or prefer to live a certain way, you make it sound like they are being forced into it. Why does it make their men mysogonists or them represeed? It might not be the way you want to live, but ....

 

[ruby59]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

You obviosuly just want to bash everything I say. Since it is 1:30 in the morning I will just say good-nite.

To add: If we are going to talk about reading comprehension, then I do need to point out that you took the "heart of the home" quote too literally. It does not mean that women should be in the home barefoot and pregnant, another stereotype of hasidic Jews. "Heart of the home" refers to how important women are to their husband, to their family and in the Jewish religion.

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Thank you for your apology.

I understand that you and probably many others reading feel like I'm tarring all Jews and Judaism with the same brush. I also understand that it is uncomfortable to say the least to have a person write negatively about their personal religion.
There is certainly a spectrum of misogyny from mild to extreme running through the tens of thousands of different denominations of the three Abrahamic religions. It all depends on which parts of which holy books are adhered to and who interprets them.
The fact remains that these dogmas, rules, and traditions come from Bronze Age cultures, and it shows. I find it contemptible that these books and their teachings are held to be beyond critique and criticism. No progress can be made without free inquiry.
The groups that keep to themselves, keep others out, control outside information, dissuade questioning, school their children in only their ways, shun those who leave, and generally cut themselves off from anyone who isn't them; do you think that this is not a way of forcing everyone to live this way? Do these people have a choice if it is between living a different way and being completely cut off from all you know and love, or staying?
The religion is the thing that is misogynistic. It teaches that the women are unclean. The men fear the niddah because their god told them to. The women believe they are unclean because their god told them they are. It's right there in the Talmud.

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

You obviosuly just want to bash everything I say. Since it is 1:30 in the morning I will just say good-nite.

To add: If we are going to talk about reading comprehension, then I do need to point out that you took the "heart of the home" quote too literally. It does not mean that women should be in the home barefoot and pregnant, another stereotype of hasidic Jews. "Heart of the home" refers to how important women are to their husband, to their family and in the Jewish religion.

I am quite aware that you did not mean barefoot and pregnant. I was meaning that it is an almost gas lighting tactic to make women be an important part of the family, to confer upon women the 'status' of being the heart of the home, because it removes women from all other arenas like business, or politics, or temple hierarchy.


If you are going to call replying to your points 'bashing', I don't know how to talk to you. It is not quite so late here, but I will still wish you a goodnight too.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

there are far right conservatives in every religion.
they demand, insist, etc. that others live the way they have chosen to live and believe.....and punish/hurt people they deem to not be in compliance with how they want to live life.

I don't begrudge them their beliefs no matter the religion.
but I do not think I should have to change my life and adhere to those beliefs.
public transport is PUBLIC TRANSPORT.
it is there for all.
they could have chartered a flight and insured that everyone was of the same mindset.

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Well said, MZ. I have no business judging anyone else's religion as long as they don't try to make me comply with it (or hurt anyone else, obviously). Orthodox Judaism is almost as ancient as civilization & I respect much about it enormously. But if an Orthodox man doesn't want to touch a woman in public, then he'd better not go where women will be present. It's foolish, to say the least, of these guys to expect an entire airplane full of people to rearrange itself to suit them. We have to travel as the rest of the world does, or stay home.

 

[telephone89]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I dont understand why they didn't just pay for reserved seating? Then they could have all sat together. This was mentioned on The Young Turks yesterday (great youtube channel btw), and they made alot of valid points.
-You can have whatever religion you want, just don't push it upon others. Asking someone else (or in some cases offering money, and then harrassing when they dont) to move because YOU can't sit next to them is pushing.
-If it were a group of Muslim extremists (because they are jewish extremists), it would have been a whole different story, and they probably would have been asked to leave.
-They did eventually sit down for takeoff, and then as soon as the seatbelt sign came off they stood in the aisles, blocking traffic. If a woman needs to goto the bathroom, and they aren't allowed to touch women, how'd they get by? (the female anchor on The Young Turks commented that she would be all up on those dudes as she slinked by haha)

I agree with the others though, if it's a common problem then implement the 'orthodox jew seats', charge extra and everyone's happy. I doubt the women really wanted to sit next to them either =\

For the record, I would not have moved if they asked, and stated the reason because I was a woman. However, once they started offering money I'd probably be fine Bump me up to first class and you can have any seat you want.

 

[luvcarrots]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I don't understand if it is an ongoing issue why the airline doesn't have two segregated sections one in first class and one in economy. I mean its not that difficult to block out rows of seats. Y

Agreed. I don't think it is fair to judge or make fun of someone's religious beliefs but if this an issue creating segregated rows seems like a logical solution. For the record I have been asked to move to accommodate families. Not much different if you consider they did not pay for their lap child's seat and lucked out that it wasn't a full flight. I did not mind and I would not mind switching seats if the passenger had religious beliefs which forbid him to sit next to a female. I don't take that stuff personally.

How about segregated seats for blacks and whites? Still think that's kosher?

I think it is entirely fair to judge someone's religious beliefs. I respect a person's rights to believe what they want, they do not have the right to unfettered respect for their beliefs.

Really? Wow. so not the same thing.

it is in my mind's eye.........
people didn't want to use the same toilet seats a black person set on.
people didn't want to sit next to a black person at the lunch counter.
and, OMG, heaven forbid they sit next to each other on a bus.

Your statement made me wonder why would those people who don't want anything to do with a black person eat what's made by a black person then?

 

[ruby59]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

You obviosuly just want to bash everything I say. Since it is 1:30 in the morning I will just say good-nite.

To add: If we are going to talk about reading comprehension, then I do need to point out that you took the "heart of the home" quote too literally. It does not mean that women should be in the home barefoot and pregnant, another stereotype of hasidic Jews. "Heart of the home" refers to how important women are to their husband, to their family and in the Jewish religion.

I am quite aware that you did not mean barefoot and pregnant. I was meaning that it is an almost gas lighting tactic to make women be an important part of the family, to confer upon women the 'status' of being the heart of the home, because it removes women from all other arenas like business, or politics, or temple hierarchy.


If you are going to call replying to your points 'bashing', I don't know how to talk to you. It is not quite so late here, but I will still wish you a goodnight too.

Ni, I just got a little sensitive after you called my comprehension skills into question (K called the way I write "garbage" ) but I enjoyed our conversation and respect your point of view. There are parts of every religion that needs to come into the 21st century, and there are rites and traditions that may look odd to an outsider, until you learn more about them.

I can tell you that as a Jewish woman married to a Catholic 30 years ago, I was not immune to everyone in my own religion. I can still remember with my oldest taking him to a new pediatrician. My old one retired unsuspectingly, and I just had to grab anyone. As soon as he came into the room with his yamaka and tfillin, took a look at my Star of David and my last name, he started on me. His first question was not about my baby, but why would I as a Jewish woman lay down with a goy. It went on from there. Stunned, I grabbed my baby and left. My husband could not understand why the visit was so short so I had to tell him. He could have gotten a very ugly view of Judaism from that encounter. But he just chalked it up to there is someone in every group. He comes with me to temple as I go with him to church. We have both encountered the good and the ugly in each other's religion, like the woman who glared at my Star of David pendant throughout the Catholic mass. But neither of us judge by the actions of a few.

As far as what happened on the airline, it was El Al afterall, the flagship of Israel, not a US flight. And I believe I read a little blurb that they are now going to section off seats for these Hasadic jews.

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

You obviosuly just want to bash everything I say. Since it is 1:30 in the morning I will just say good-nite.

To add: If we are going to talk about reading comprehension, then I do need to point out that you took the "heart of the home" quote too literally. It does not mean that women should be in the home barefoot and pregnant, another stereotype of hasidic Jews. "Heart of the home" refers to how important women are to their husband, to their family and in the Jewish religion.

I am quite aware that you did not mean barefoot and pregnant. I was meaning that it is an almost gas lighting tactic to make women be an important part of the family, to confer upon women the 'status' of being the heart of the home, because it removes women from all other arenas like business, or politics, or temple hierarchy.


If you are going to call replying to your points 'bashing', I don't know how to talk to you. It is not quite so late here, but I will still wish you a goodnight too.

Ni, I just got a little sensitive after you called my comprehension skills into question (K called the way I write "garbage" ) but I enjoyed our conversation and respect your point of view. There are parts of every religion that needs to come into the 21st century, and there are rites and traditions that may look odd to an outsider, until you learn more about them.

I can tell you that as a Jewish woman married to a Catholic 30 years ago, I was not immune to everyone in my own religion. I can still remember with my oldest taking him to a new pediatrician. My old one retired unsuspectingly, and I just had to grab anyone. As soon as he came into the room with his yamaka and tfillin, took a look at my Star of David and my last name, he started on me. His first question was not about my baby, but why would I as a Jewish woman lay down with a goy. It went on from there. Stunned, I grabbed my baby and left. My husband could not understand why the visit was so short so I had to tell him. He could have gotten a very ugly view of Judaism from that encounter. But he just chalked it up to there is someone in every group. He comes with me to temple as I go with him to church. We have both encountered the good and the ugly in each other's religion, like the woman who glared at my Star of David pendant throughout the Catholic mass. But neither of us judge by the actions of a few.

As far as what happened on the airline, it was El Al afterall, the flagship of Israel, not a US flight. And I believe I read a little blurb that they are now going to section off seats for these Hasadic jews.

Aww! 30 years!
Sometimes, love really does conquer all.


I still abhor segregation. No matter how old and cherished the tradition. I also understand that it is far from an easy fix.

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I doubt any of the Hasidic people consider it segregation. They see it as right, according to God's word -- both men & women. If you do not follow their religion & are forced to sit separately where you don't want to be, that's different. But separate seats in temple, say, for Hasidic or Orthodox men & women is a very ancient part of their tradition. It's as immoral to compel people to be what we feel is equal as it is to force them apart.

--- Laurie

 

[movie zombie]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

their temple, their rules.

 

[kenny]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

their temple, their rules.

That argument taken to the extreme means even this was okay.
After all, their mosque, their rules.



NO!
Religious people need to get that their beliefs, views, expectations do not apply to non-members.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

see my prior posts, Kenny....
and realize I was responding to a post above me.

their temple their rules = their building they can have whatever segregation they want.

public means they don't get to make the rules for everyone and force it down our throats.
if they want to be in public they follow the public rules.
therefore, your picture and conclusion are erroneous on a lot of levels: not a temple, wrong religion, etc.

if they want to immigrate to this country they need to follow our rules.
I don't care what religion it is.

 

[kenny]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

see my prior posts, Kenny....
and realize I was responding to a post above me.

their temple their rules = their building they can have whatever segregation they want.

public means they don't get to make the rules for everyone and force it down our throats.
if they want to be in public they follow the public rules.
therefore, your picture and conclusion are erroneous on a lot of levels: not a temple, wrong religion, etc.

if they want to immigrate to this country they need to follow our rules.
I don't care what religion it is.

MZ, I apologize for just responding to your post and not reading previous posts, if previous posts changed the meaning of your post.

Quoting previous posts would have helped.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

yes, quoting the post immediately before mine would have helped.....

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Tolerance in a secular society seems to be the only way we humans have to somewhat peacefully coexist. Tolerance does not mean turning a blind eye to gross misogyny no matter how much religion it is wrapped up in. Discussion and critique is necessary.
Slavery and segregation of black people was entirely condoned by the slavery in the Christian bible. Would you be so willing to say 'their church, their rules' if some church was still supporting racial segregation?

Where I have a real problem with Haredi community is their constant and flagrant misogyny. Hasidic women are required by theology and custom to be submissive. They have few legal rights. Women’s testimony is seen as inferior to men’s in a rabbinical court. They cannot divorce their husbands, but if their husbands divorce them, they still require his permission to remarry. They are educated separately from men, and their education focuses on making them good, obediant wives and mothers, not academic achievers. They do not study Torah or Talmud as the men do and cannot serve as clergy. Some women do work outside the home, especially in family businesses, but most do not, especially as the average Haredi wife will have at least six children and is entirely responsible for the home. They must adhere to strict modesty laws requiring long sleeves, high necks and long skirts at all times. Most married women either cover their hair or wear sheitls, a wig usually cut in straight, chin-length bob. You see some of the same traits in modern Orthodox communities, but the Hasidic community is a closed one that demands complete conformity. If you aspire to higher education or a more secular life, if you don’t want to have children or are gay or if you in any way fall outside the traditional feminine heteronorms, your life will be hard, if not downright miserable. Socially, there is almost no interaction between men and women except in carefully controlled circumstances (which is very unlike modern Orthodoxy). Some ultra-Orthodox communities take this separation to such an extreme that they will actually disappear women entirely from their local press, deleting them from photos and altering gender pronouns in news stories so as not to discuss women at all…even when the news stories are about women.

http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/20/the-ultra-orthodox-old-world-misogyny-in-the-new-world/

 

[movie zombie]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

jane, I said, their temple, their rules.
if I don't like their rules I don't go in.
what I expect in the public arena is another thing.
if a church insisted on segregating races i'd not like it and i'd not attend....and i'd join the protestors.
my choice.

unfortunately, the Hasidic jews have much in common with right wing conservative islamists.
they have a long tradition of separating women from men.
I am not going to change their ways but I am not going to participate with them either.

i do appreciate your point.

personally, again, i think the airline should have given them their $ back and kicked them off the plane. as i said before they could have chartered a flight.

however, i'm not going to take it on myself to try and change their religious values and practices within their own temple.....but i don't want them trying to change my ability to live and move freely in public just 'cause they left their temple.

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

jane, I said, their temple, their rules.
if I don't like their rules I don't go in.
what I expect in the public arena is another thing.
if a church insisted on segregating races i'd not like it and i'd not attend....and i'd join the protestors.
my choice.

unfortunately, the Hasidic jews have much in common with right wing conservative islamists.
they have a long tradition of separating women from men.
I am not going to change their ways but I am not going to participate with them either.

i do appreciate your point.

personally, again, i think the airline should have given them their $ back and kicked them off the plane. as i said before they could have chartered a flight.

however, i'm not going to take it on myself to try and change their religious values and practices within their own temple.....but i don't want them trying to change my ability to live and move freely in public just 'cause they left their temple.

This is what I am doing.

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

OK, another thing with religion that burns me -- happened to me tonight. I really hate being solicited by proselytizers for their religions. It happens a lot here in the South. Tonight a teenager came to our door asking for directions to a nearby family's house. As I turned to go inside, she asked, "Are you a Christian?" My first impulse was to holler, "WHAAAT? FOR PETE'S SAKE, KID!" I simply said No firmly enough to cut off conversation. "But do you know the gospels?" she continued. Sheesh! I went inside & closed the door.

Go to lunch with acquaintances. Stop to say hello to a neighbor on the street. Anything can get you an uninvited solicitation to Be Saved. It is VERY annoying. Tomorrow I'll be less irritated. I only wish those who worship whatever way they please would DO it rather than telling everyone about it.

--- Laurie

 

[ksinger]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

OK, another thing with religion that burns me -- happened to me tonight. I really hate being solicited by proselytizers for their religions. It happens a lot here in the South. Tonight a teenager came to our door asking for directions to a nearby family's house. As I turned to go inside, she asked, "Are you a Christian?" My first impulse was to holler, "WHAAAT? FOR PETE'S SAKE, KID!" I simply said No firmly enough to cut off conversation. "But do you know the gospels?" she continued. Sheesh! I went inside & closed the door.

Go to lunch with acquaintances. Stop to say hello to a neighbor on the street. Anything can get you an uninvited solicitation to Be Saved. It is VERY annoying. Tomorrow I'll be less irritated. I only wish those who worship whatever way they please would DO it rather than telling everyone about it.

--- Laurie

Ah, the shape of my days from childhood, from having the bejeezus scared out of me at 6 years old by a wildly inappropriate-for-children-but-got-to-put-the-fear-of-hell-in-em-early rapture film viewed at my friend's church, to the inevitable door-to-door proselytizer to the acquaintances who just ASSUME you are the same as them and agree with them on all matters religious. I have self-censored my entire life to keep the religious OFF MY BACK. It's a bit better now, but saying you are an atheist or even agnostic around here can still result in you watching the other person's view of you shift before your very eyes, from "she's decent", to "she probably kills kittens while molesting children."

Yes, annoying indeed.

ETA - my husband used to tell the door-to-door proselytizers that he was a Satanist. He liked to watch them gulping and stammering. Hey, if you bother me in my home, you gotta be ready for whatever responses you get.....

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

watching the other person's view of you shift before your very eyes, from "she's decent", to "she probably kills kittens while molesting children."

Exactly! I mentioned to a group of about 5 women at lunch once that DH is an atheist. Oh dear, a moment of stunned silence; then someone whispered, "How do you stand it?" When people come to the door I usually smile & say firmly, "Not interested, sorry," and close the door. If pressed, I say we're Jewish. That shuts them up too. I am not an atheist, but my paltry personal beliefs are between me & whoever it is up there, not me and a doorbell-ringer.

--- Laurie

 

[OreoRosies86]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

watching the other person's view of you shift before your very eyes, from "she's decent", to "she probably kills kittens while molesting children."

Exactly! I mentioned to a group of about 5 women at lunch once that DH is an atheist. Oh dear, a moment of stunned silence; then someone whispered, "How do you stand it?" When people come to the door I usually smile & say firmly, "Not interested, sorry," and close the door. If pressed, I say we're Jewish. That shuts them up too. I am not an atheist, but my paltry personal beliefs are between me & whoever it is up there, not me and a doorbell-ringer.

--- Laurie

I use the "Thanks but we're Jewish" line every time! They know there is no chance of conversion to be had. We got one of these taped to our front door once and we both thought at first glance that it was a Handbook for the Recently Deceased a la Beetlejuice.

 

[Ella]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

A reminder, we don't allow discussions of specific religions. Please keep the discussion to the incident in general and do not tell stories about particular religions or your posts will be removed.

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Apologies, Ella. I didn't mean to denigrate any religion, but only those who knock on doors selling them. I'll go to my room & be quiet now.

--- Laurie

 

[kenny]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I can think of few things more arrogant, insulting, self righteous, and disrespectful of diversity than door to door proselytizing.

 

[crown1]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I can think of few things more arrogant, insulting, self righteous, and disrespectful of diversity than door to door proselytizing.

Kenny and others, the hurt and insult works on both sides. When folks come to my door I never go until I have checked to see who it is. When it is someone from a group that is not to my liking or belief system I either do not answer or politely say I have my own belief and bid them goodbye. I have never had one to put his or her foot in the door as I politely let them know I am not interested. I did not bait them or insult their beliefs. That is my way of respecting diversity. Allowing others to have their beliefs and standing by my own. I know that you have strong feelings based on your life experiences but so do the rest of us. Most have felt the sting of hurt from someone in their lifetime. One should not let that cause them to hurt others who had nothing to do with it. Your way is not the only way or necessarily the right way. For someone who claims to want diversity I think it would be wise to allow others their difference from you. Most have feelings whether they want to admit them or not. I can tell from reading your posts over the years that you are intelligent but some of the things you say on here make me shake my head. Just my opinion and something I hope you will think about.

 

[msop04]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I can think of few things more arrogant, insulting, self righteous, and disrespectful of diversity than door to door proselytizing.

Kenny and others, the hurt and insult works on both sides. When folks come to my door I never go until I have checked to see who it is. When it is someone from a group that is not to my liking or belief system I either do not answer or politely say I have my own belief and bid them goodbye. I have never had one to put his or her foot in the door as I politely let them know I am not interested. I did not bait them or insult their beliefs. That is my way of respecting diversity. Allowing others to have their beliefs and standing by my own. I know that you have strong feelings based on your life experiences but so do the rest of us. Most have felt the sting of hurt from someone in their lifetime. One should not let that cause them to hurt others who had nothing to do with it. Your way is not the only way or necessarily the right way. For someone who claims to want diversity I think it would be wise to allow others their difference from you. Most have feelings whether they want to admit them or not. I can tell from reading your posts over the years that you are intelligent but some of the things you say on here make me shake my head. Just my opinion and something I hope you will think about.

Well stated, crown1...

 

[kenny]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

I tolerate diversity.
I will not tolerate intolerance of diversity, which is what proselytizing is.

I don't care what people believe but the moment they attempt to enact legislation that denies civil rights to the inferior people not in their club, or knock on my door to convince me to abandon reason for their unprovable superstitions I'll call out their intolerance.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

Re: They should have just forced the women to marry these me

Throw on some horns and answer the door...

They won't come back!