There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger Mom

[Smith1942]

I can barely believe this. Amy Chua, the "Tiger Mom" who apparently terrorises her daughters by threatening to sell their treasured possessions if they do not succeed (according to her first book), has now written a book claiming that eight religions and "cultural groups" are superior to all others.

It's official: We are going backwards as a species. I guess all the people who died in WW II did so in vain, then, and everyone who has fought for civil liberties or battled to stamp out this kind of thinking has wasted their time. Anyone who has experienced racism or xenophobia must surely deplore this book (although you don't have to have experienced either to deplore them, of course). And the book is published by someone respectable - Penguin! When did it become OK to say such things?

It's like the issue in the UK at the moment of borders being opened to people from Romania. You should hear the way people at home talk about them. It's a disgrace.

I am saddened that anyone in today's world can think that it's possible to sort human beings into a scale of superiority of any type at all, let alone a scale based on culture, religion, nationality, or race. Has history taught us nothing? Have we seriously not learned yet all the lessons that are imparted in kindergarten - i.e. help others, be kind, it is better to be healthy than wealthy, we are all equal, and so forth? Even more scary is that the author is an educated Yale law professor with a platform from her previous book.

I wish I was a student of hers or an editor at her publishing house so I could make an effective protest by leaving her class or refusing to work on her book.

http://nypost.com/2014/01/04/tiger-mom-some-groups-are-just-better-than-others/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2534257/Tiger-Mom-roars-time-book-naming-eight-superior-groups-people.html

 

[AGBF]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

This seems too bizarre to be an educated person's real position. It seems likely that that the author hit on a way to create a controversial book that would create scandal and, thus, sell. In other words, she was willing to sell her "good" name for filthy lucre.

Deb/AGBF

 

[arkieb1]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

The saddest thing about this is it was written by two people who work as academics. It makes you wonder what they teach people in the real world.

 

[monarch64]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

There have always been, and will always be, people like this person in the world. She is not unique to this time period. There also have always been, and will always be, people who are willing to buy into her scam because they are desperate for some message of hope to hold onto.

If a bigot speaks in the woods, and no one is around to hear, does the hate speech still exist???

 

[AGBF]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

If a bigot speaks in the woods, and no one is around to hear, does the hate speech still exist???

I can answer that. No. That is why my contention is that the authors are counting on having an audience for their hate speech. A paying audience. I think all they want out of this is money.

AGBF

 

[monarch64]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

If a bigot speaks in the woods, and no one is around to hear, does the hate speech still exist???

I can answer that. No. That is why my contention is that the authors are counting on having an audience for their hate speech. A paying audience. I think all they want out of this is money.

AGBF

Yup, total scam. Not a very noble way to make a living, and I feel sorry for their children. Maybe the kids will grow up to write their own tell-all books about life with Tiger Bigot Mom.

 

[SignedMe]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

Sadly, a book like this will do well for exactly the reason you're talking about it...hype, controversy, the lure of the taboo. These sorts of books are published every year and they don't need to be well-recieved or beloved books because the money is all the same. And, personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the book was published KNOWING that there would be backlash, actually, Penguin probably courts it to some degree. You have to remember that publishing houses aren't puritanical, they are businesses that benefit equally from the well received and, shall we say, less than well received, people WILL buy this book simply to know what hoopla is all about. Remember the launch of Tiger Mom? She was household name for a long while and now she'll become a best seller, either on the lists that matter or in her genre and she'll be handed another handsome book deal and someday we'll be looking with wide eyes at another one of her confounding world views. That's the business. I am, however, curious now...I'm going to dig and find out if the book went at auction or if it was lumped into the Battle Hymn deal and what sort of "deal" level was announced.

But the good news is, the revenue generated from this embarrassing book will fund a lot of mid-listers, so it's not all bad.

On a side note, I find the concept of this book to be disgusting.

 

[Karl_K]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

On a side note, I find the concept of this book to be disgusting.

As do I.
However if you take 300 random people and put them in a hotel and they have to stay there for a month they will quickly form groups and some of the groups will look down on others.
It is basic human nature.

 

[Smith1942]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

Tonight I've just finished proofing a new book for work about an African American poet of the late nineteenth/early twentieth century, and it reminded me how hard life was for people of colour back then. I guess that's why I posted, as it's odd that I stumbled across the publicity while working on a project like that. I simply don't know how this awful woman can publish this stuff. Sure, we'd all like to court a bit of controversy and make a bit of money, like perhaps that book "He's Just Not That Into You", but like this? Selling every ounce of your self-respect and making everyone in your world and a whole bunch of strangers hate you for very good reasons? How can she sleep at night?

What really makes me sick is that she won't even care about her sales - because she'll already have a nice fat advance. After Tiger Mom was published she became a bestselling author with a great platform, so I'm sure her advance is substantial. 500k wouldn't surprise me. I was disappointed in the Wall Street Journal that they published an entire page of her abusive parenting methods to publicise Tiger Mom. That's a page of the Journal, I mean, not just of her book, so many thousands of words. As a society, why do we even give airtime to these people?

If it's all a wind-up, it's a dangerous one. Stirring up racial tensions shouldn't be allowed, in my opinion. There are other things that Penguin wouldn't publish - for example, I'm quite sure that no major publisher would publish other tasteless and potentially dangerous books such as - let's say - an in-depth "How To" guide for the best way to commit suicide, how to prepare, how to make the decision, methods, etc etc. But this kind of propaganda could be just as bad in its way. There are plenty of neo-Nazi groups in the world today, and the British National Party is a seriously scary bunch. I bet they'll fall on this book like a pack of hungry wolves, and it will help feed their dangerous ideas.

Britain has a number of laws against hate speech, so I'm not sure how this book could be published over there, but I bet it will, anyway.
The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 says, "A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred." This law implies that the written materials are illegal. But I suppose you have to prove intention.

I hear what others have said about publishing being a business, but this stuff is truly nasty. I wonder if other companies turned it away.

 

[Smith1942]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

On a side note, I find the concept of this book to be disgusting.

As do I.
However if you take 300 random people and put them in a hotel and they have to stay there for a month they will quickly form groups and some of the groups will look down on others.
It is basic human nature.

But they might look down on them for reasons of character or behaviour - reasons that pertain to individuals and to things that are within their control. Maybe one group told lies to get better food, for example, in which case a more honest group would be justified in looking down on them. "Maybe we're hungry but at least we wouldn't stoop to that kind of behaviour" sort of thing. Looking down on someone for a characteristic that they can't help - like their skin colour or country of origin - that's a specific kind of "looking down."

 

[SignedMe]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

Selling every ounce of your self-respect and making everyone in your world and a whole bunch of strangers hate you for very good reasons? How can she sleep at night?

I hear what others have said about publishing being a business, but this stuff is truly nasty. I wonder if other companies turned it away.

In her eyes she didn't sell out. To her, this book, as well as the one that proceeds it, are her truths. These are the things she believes in. This book is her gospel. It doesn't matter what you think, or what I think, or what anyone else thinks of her theories, she owns them in black and white. But, you're right, people are going to bristle because her claims go against years and years of progress...but she will find her audience, and to those people this will make perfect sense.

I am going to dig into the details of her deal. My guess? And considering her notoriety? It would depend on who the acquisition editors were and how the book was pitched. I'm guessing at least a few probably snubbed her, but if Penguin/Random House bought the book, and her agent is worth her 15%, then the offer was probably leveraged at some point and there were probably multiple offers, because you are talking about the Big Five and big books with hot-button topics are like blood in the water. PRH is never ones last ditch effort.

 

[smitcompton]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

Hi,

Well, not to cause too much anxiety in this group, I think she makes some valid points, IMO. When you first posted i stopped to think of which groups I would think of as superior. I kinda laughed at myself as i choose the Jews.(I am not Jewish) Then i read the rest. Recently, I have had reason to explore differences in Asian culture vs our own modern culture. And I concluded that they(Asian, more specifically Chinese) had different values than average Americans do. And while I can see where they are coming from, they cannot see where I, as a modern American is coming from. Their values are built in to their culture, just as our modern society has some of the built in values you all have expressed.

I don't think this is hate at all.(I know you mean the authors) These are immigrant cultures and success is very important to them. They are insecure when they come and they push their offspring to succeed. As parents they instill guilt and put pressure on children.
This is good. We are failing in our schools and failing our children because we have changed our thinking to everyone should be happy and fulfilled and have everything that every other person has. As parents it takes a whole lot of work to guide children to take their place in the world.

As an anecdotal story: As a young woman in my early 20's, I worked at night on Wall Street. WE were saving for a house with my salary. I had to come home late (midnight) on the subway and change trains . I was afraid, and was cautious. One night a black man approached me, and I stepped away from him not wanting to talk to him. He wanted to ask directions and I wanted to keep away from him. He sort of cornered me, and then i heard his plea to me. Please, I am not an American black(those terms were not used then) I am from jamica and i will not hurt you. I need directions. I was embarrassed, and gave the man directions, but he clearly felt he was superior, and I was less afraid. Feeling superior doesn't mean you want to take over a country or kill memebers of a group. It means you believe something and in these cases, it is how to be successful in American life.


We are too worried about offending others. We ought to look more closely at what some groups do do. If the schools are failing, these parents are not.


Annette

 

[partgypsy]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

the groups she lists just seem so arbitrary. Maybe she could just make a more general comment that immigrants coming into the US have a greater drive to succeed than 2nd, 3rd, etc generations? I guess I could imagine if you came from a country experiencing privation and lack of freedom, maybe you would appreciate it more and need to live on less while devoting more time to bettering one's situation. But I think she did it specifically, well I guess she looks down at Americans in general (lazy, entitled, etc) and it's OK to paint us all with a broad brush with a few exceptions. I'm not going to read her book, but I don't see how this is helpful.

And how can a) a sense of superiority, and b) a sense of insecurity both be considered hallmarks? I mean this is pop psychology at its worst.

 

[SignedMe]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

the groups she lists just seem so arbitrary. Maybe she could just make a more general comment that immigrants coming into the US have a greater drive to succeed than 2nd, 3rd, etc generations? I guess I could imagine if you came from a country experiencing privation and lack of freedom, maybe you would appreciate it more and need to live on less while devoting more time to bettering one's situation. But I think she did it specifically, well I guess she looks down at Americans in general (lazy, entitled, etc) and it's OK to paint us all with a broad brush with a few exceptions. I'm not going to read her book, but I don't see how this is helpful.

And how can a) a sense of superiority, and b) a sense of insecurity both be considered hallmarks? I mean this is pop psychology at its worst.

Well, flat out, there is a sense of entitlement to today's youth -- American youth, particularly. Maybe it's the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality, maybe it's "new age" parenting style where Johnny is never, ever wrong because he's a precious, little snowflake, or maybe its a backlash of the "keeping up with Jones." Who knows. Whatever it is, it does exist. There was recently a thread spreading across FB where real tweets from real teens were posted showing their "disappointment" over their Christmas gifts. Most of them pouted about not getting iPhones or iPads because they DESERVED one because EVERYONE ELSE GOT ONE, going so far as to say that they "hate Santa" and "their parents." Others were griping over the lack of a car -- because they'd have to get it "tomorrow" so so much for the big bow fantasy. One girl flipped her $*!T over getting diamond earrings instead of a MacBook Pro. Boo freakin' hoo. Yes, in that right, the humbleness of other cultures is greatly superior to that of "our" (generalizing here) own.

But, that doesn't mean I support a book like this. I don't. As you said, she broad-brushed us all, which isn't fair and isn't right.

 

[partgypsy]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

I do agree in general there is a sense of entitlement, and our popular culture is crap, but I don't see this kind of attitude represented in my kids or my friends and neighbor's kids, with a few exceptions. So I just hate this generalizing. But maybe she would generalize me anyways, that I am a child of an immigrant and raised differently when I was a kid (almost no tv but instead kept busy with other activities). The difference was that the activities weren't done to make us some uberhuman but because we enjoyed them and made us well rounded individuals, and our parents wanted us to experience lessons and other activities that they weren't allowed or had the money to do.

I guess I disagree with her premise that her (tiger mother) way of raising children is healthy. I have no problems with having or expecting certain standards. What I disagree with is her belittling and bullying of her children. I have a graduate degree from a prestigious university and witnessed many young kids pushed hard and dictated by their parents what they should major in, whether they liked it or not. Some kids were OK with it but others were under a lot of inner conflict about this and had self-esteem, anxiety, eating disorders, or even dropping out and made to feel like a failure if they didn't spend their college tuition on what their parents wanted them to do. I don't see how that is healthy or loving.

 

[PintoBean]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

Maybe she needs to pay attention to the trends in Chinese culture. With the advent of the one child policy, you see 3 generations of a family doting on 1 or 2 kids - the little prince/ss. Then these little prince/ss grow up spoiled, entitled...

I thought it was funny when we were in China that our regional tour guide chuckled that these pampered prince/sses were a new type of problem they are facing as a nation.

 

[Smith1942]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

I just don't like any groupings that box people together for things they can't help like nationality or skin colour or original culture, because those groupings ignore the role of the individual and the exercise of free will. For example, to take a ridiculous stereotype, to think of all Scots as tight-fisted means we ignore a) all the Scots who are incredibly generous and b) takes no account of the fact that an individual has free will over what they spend and therefore should not be boxed into a group labelled "tight-fisted".

 

[ksinger]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

I just don't like any groupings that box people together for things they can't help like nationality or skin colour or original culture, because those groupings ignore the role of the individual and the exercise of free will. For example, to take a ridiculous stereotype, to think of all Scots as tight-fisted means we ignore a) all the Scots who are incredibly generous and b) takes no account of the fact that an individual has free will over what they spend and therefore should not be boxed into a group labelled "tight-fisted".

And yet, cultural groups, at least here in America, demand that their cultural distinctiveness be respected and celebrated by outsiders, while at the same time decrying any characteristic that outsiders might point to as distinctive, because THAT would be stereotyping. Makes a person wonder what exactly it is that even makes one belong to a group in the first place, when no one is allowed to openly discuss characteristics of that group without a zillion exceptions instantly being trotted out. I would LIKE to say for instance, that I found the Irish to match the stereotype of being conspicuously friendly people. But hey, I'm sure someone will get their knickers in a twist even at that.

A complete no-win situation. And it makes truly honest discussions of group characteristics - if there is even such a thing as a group - pretty tough.

No matter how ugly as we moderns may find it, grouping people according to SOME criteria, no matter how flawed, is hard-wired into our DNA.

 

[House Cat]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

On a side note, I find the concept of this book to be disgusting.

As do I.
However if you take 300 random people and put them in a hotel and they have to stay there for a month they will quickly form groups and some of the groups will look down on others.
It is basic human nature.

The most notable place I ever saw this phenomenon was in the mental hospital. People literally paired up and made fun of others who appeared to be more mentally ill. I mean seriously, we were all in the freakin mental hospital!!!! But, they did it anyway and made fun of the psychotic. Sigh. I guess they were superior because they were "only suicidal."


People can be so elitist sometimes, elitist and stupid.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

I don't think this is hate at all.(I know you mean the authors) These are immigrant cultures and success is very important to them. They are insecure when they come and they push their offspring to succeed. As parents they instill guilt and put pressure on children.
This is good. We are failing in our schools and failing our children because we have changed our thinking to everyone should be happy and fulfilled and have everything that every other person has. As parents it takes a whole lot of work to guide children to take their place in the world.

Annette

It is true that Asian immigrants push their kids to study hard in school so that they can get into a higher paying career job (not that my parents have had succeeded ) notice that there are many Asians in the medical field nowadays? You don't hear many Asian kids being raised by a single parent. IMO...the best education in life starts at home.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

the groups she lists just seem so arbitrary. Maybe she could just make a more general comment that immigrants coming into the US have a greater drive to succeed than 2nd, 3rd, etc generations? I guess I could imagine if you came from a country experiencing privation and lack of freedom, maybe you would appreciate it more and need to live on less while devoting more time to bettering one's situation. But I think she did it specifically, well I guess she looks down at Americans in general (lazy, entitled, etc) and it's OK to paint us all with a broad brush with a few exceptions. I'm not going to read her book, but I don't see how this is helpful.

And how can a) a sense of superiority, and b) a sense of insecurity both be considered hallmarks? I mean this is pop psychology at its worst.

Entitlements is killing this country... I have been living in the U.S. since 1966, back then everyone works hard for a living, but now too many people don't wanna work they just wanted everything for free. ..

 

[anne_h]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

If her assertions are backed up with empirical evidence, I'm fine with it. If not, well then it's just her own opinion.

I think the purpose of the book and the associated hoopla is to make money.

Anne

 

[pregcurious]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

Nuts.

 

[JulieN]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

The reason why these immigrant cultural groups do well in the US is because they either need a good education and smarts to get a work visa to come to the US, or they have money. Having both of those makes you a model minority. They are a small, non-random set of people who are not successful because of their culture.

Now, the Mormon one is interesting. They are not an immigrant group. They don't see themselves superior to others because of their race or culture, but their assuredness in salvation gives them a strong dose of confidence. In happiness, Mormons are topped only by Jews, who do have that "chosen people" thing going for them.

 

[JulieN]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

I have been living in the U.S. since 1966, back then everyone works hard for a living, but now too many people don't wanna work they just wanted everything for free. ..

Now, most everyone works hard to scratch out a living, while the rich reap the benefits of everyone else's hard work.

 

[Meezermom]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

Wow - just so totally sickening. I hope their children do not turn into adults with the same mindset - that they meet enough people throughout their growing up years to influence them just enough to set them on a different path. My siblings and I grew up in an isolated, strict and abusive family structure, and we all raised our children totally different than the way we were raised. It stopped with us.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

I have been living in the U.S. since 1966, back then everyone works hard for a living, but now too many people don't wanna work they just wanted everything for free. ..

Now, most everyone works hard to scratch out a living, while the rich reap the benefits of everyone else's hard work.

Why work for a living??..

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/09/02/on-labor-day-2013-welfare-pays-more-than-minimum-wage-work-in-35-states/

 

[Tekate]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

If it's better to get welfare than to work because minimum wage doesn't pay a living wage then we had better raise the minimum wage because welfare is next to impossible to get by on having seen this with people I worked with who were the working poor, they could barely make it in Austin.. (we are talking couple who combined made about 40K year with 2 kids, one car).. these people were always one day away from losing it.. car dies. .not money for a new car, rents in austin are about 1K a month... they tried.. something is wrong here.

I have been living in the U.S. since 1966, back then everyone works hard for a living, but now too many people don't wanna work they just wanted everything for free. ..

Now, most everyone works hard to scratch out a living, while the rich reap the benefits of everyone else's hard work.

Why work for a living??..

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/09/02/on-labor-day-2013-welfare-pays-more-than-minimum-wage-work-in-35-states/

 

[partgypsy]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

I do have to say that I would say that cultures or communities where family is very important and parents stay together, the children are going to do better. Raising children is so much work, to have that stability and support it does take a village or at least a stable family unit to do so.

And if welfare pays more than minimum wage, that's sad and says something about minimum wage (does not provide a livable wage). From what I understand it is hard to get on welfare and primary purpose is to keep children out of poverty. But it's not a ticket to a good life or anything.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: There Are 8 Superior Cultural Groups, According to Tiger

I do have to say that I would say that cultures or communities where family is very important and parents stay together, the children are going to do better. Raising children is so much work, to have that stability and support it does take a village or at least a stable family unit to do so.

And if welfare pays more than minimum wage, that's sad and says something about minimum wage (does not provide a livable wage). From what I understand it is hard to get on welfare and primary purpose is to keep children out of poverty. But it's not a ticket to a good life or anything.

I'd agree that we need to raise the minimum wage but to what point? .. IMO, $15 an hr for working at Mickey D's is ridiculous.