The reason we can't have honest dialogue about education

[zoebartlett]

I'm an elementary teacher, and I would never post things like that on a blog. It's really inappropriate, and I'm surprised she made such a bold move and posted those comments. I guess I just think about how nothing you post on the Internet is truly anonymous. People can, and often will, find out things that someone thought he/she was posting privately or anonymously. Would this author have been okay with it if her students' parents knew that she was posting about their children? I'm guessing they'd be upset, and rightfully so, in my opinion.

Eta: Even if the author wasn't posting about specific children, I still don't think it's appropriate.

 

[HollyS]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

The world has spun the other way on its axis. It must have. I cannot remember the last time we disagreed. I cannot remember the last time I didn't want to 'ditto' you.

 

[TravelingGal]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

The world has spun the other way on its axis. It must have. I cannot remember the last time we disagreed. I cannot remember the last time I didn't want to 'ditto' you.

And this scares me. It's time to set all in the world right. Reinstate politics on ATW, I say! Let's go back to rolling eyes and wanting to poke those eyes out!

Who's with me? Smack your neighbor and say "Aye!"

 

[monarch64]

Aye! Hilarity!

 

[soocool]

I'm an elementary teacher, and I would never post things like that on a blog. It's really inappropriate, and I'm surprised she made such a bold move and posted those comments. I guess I just think about how nothing you post on the Internet is truly anonymous. People can, and often will, find out things that someone thought he/she was posting privately or anonymously. Would this author have been okay with it if her students' parents knew that she was posting about their children? I'm guessing they'd be upset, and rightfully so, in my opinion.

Eta: Even if the author wasn't posting about specific children, I still don't think it's appropriate.

I was just wondering, if you saw parents and students making comments about you on ratemyteachers, would you be upset that they could post anything anonymously whether the comments are good or bad?

 

[HollyS]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

The world has spun the other way on its axis. It must have. I cannot remember the last time we disagreed. I cannot remember the last time I didn't want to 'ditto' you.

And this scares me. It's time to set all in the world right. Reinstate politics on ATW, I say! Let's go back to rolling eyes and wanting to poke those eyes out!

Who's with me? Smack your neighbor and say "Aye!"

But, I'm enjoying the new detente between ksinger and myself. I feel so very Zen. Ommmmmmmmmmm.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Ok my thoughts -

I don't care if those comments reflect how she feels. I don't care if that's what she says over a margarita or two with her co-teachers or her friends or family. Heck, I've thought worse than that about co-workers or fellow students in the past, and I'm sure there will be bratty kids in my classes once I start teaching that I'll feel the same way about.

BUT - if you're going to think or say those kinds of things, don't be stupid and put it down in incriminating, easily findable and come back to bite ya in the ass ("Well look at what you wrote on Feb. x, 2011) form.

I'm no education expert and I don't claim to be, but if she's dumb enough to WRITE all that stuff down in a public domain (and hey, those aren't exactly unicorns and rainbows comments, are they?) then maybe she deserves to reap the consequences of her actions.

Freedom of speech - yes - BUT be smart enough not to hand ammunition to people who might take offense/want to fire you/have the authority to fire you.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

I'm an elementary teacher, and I would never post things like that on a blog. It's really inappropriate, and I'm surprised she made such a bold move and posted those comments. I guess I just think about how nothing you post on the Internet is truly anonymous. People can, and often will, find out things that someone thought he/she was posting privately or anonymously. Would this author have been okay with it if her students' parents knew that she was posting about their children? I'm guessing they'd be upset, and rightfully so, in my opinion.

Eta: Even if the author wasn't posting about specific children, I still don't think it's appropriate.

I was just wondering, if you saw parents and students making comments about you on ratemyteachers, would you be upset that they could post anything anonymously whether the comments are good or bad?

Students/parents aren't in charge of fostering the emotional and educational growth of their teachers. They don't have a job responsibility to their teachers. I think the situations are different.

 

[monarch64]

Ok my thoughts -

I don't care if those comments reflect how she feels. I don't care if that's what she says over a margarita or two with her co-teachers or her friends or family. Heck, I've thought worse than that about co-workers or fellow students in the past, and I'm sure there will be bratty kids in my classes once I start teaching that I'll feel the same way about.

BUT - if you're going to think or say those kinds of things, don't be stupid and put it down in incriminating, easily findable and come back to bite ya in the a$$ ("Well look at what you wrote on Feb. x, 2011) form.

I'm no education expert and I don't claim to be, but if she's dumb enough to WRITE all that stuff down in a public domain (and hey, those aren't exactly unicorns and rainbows comments, are they?) then maybe she deserves to reap the consequences of her actions.

Freedom of speech - yes - BUT be smart enough not to hand ammunition to people who might take offense/want to fire you/have the authority to fire you.

Great points and well-articulated, B.E.G. I couldn't agree with you more. Of course it's ok to vent, but doing so publicly doesn't create discussion in a positive and well-meaning way. It breeds negativity, period. As an English teacher, Ms. Munroe should've understood that the way you word things can impede how others receive your point. Sorry, but you really do catch more flies with honey. We like to talk about bad parenting and bad teaching and bad students...no side wants to listen because every side feels attacked and defensive. To bring about change, we need to start with the positives, yes?

 

[BoulderGal]

Interestingly I just had a conversation with my middle school daughter last night. It all started when a classmate said I was "scary" when I substituted in her class. Really? Then I asked her who it was. The girl had said some completely inappropriate and hurtful things to another student within my earshot. I held both kids after class for two minutes and told them that they are both RESPONSIBLE for what comes out of their mouths and should be held accountable for any fall out from their verbal fall out. I expect everybody to treat each other with respect, a la Thumper from Bambi. That's how it works in my house, and how it (eventually) will work in my classroom.

The teacher showed a lack of judgement. Someone already said it, but freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the responsibility of of your comments. As a parent of special needs kids, I thought her comments about a kid being "dim" as well as others stung, and are really insensitive. Should she be fired? ...haven't decided yet...

 

[KatyWI]

I think it's kinda hilarious that most people assume that the "bad" comments (which I personally think are very funny) are about THEIR kids, which is why they're so offended. Honestly, if anyone in the future could say that my (hypothetical) child was "frightfully dim" or that they dressed "like a streetwalker" I'd know for sure that I failed as a parent (by my own standards).

I agree that there's a certain amount of personal responsibility involved - were it me, I wouldn't have used my real name, nor would I have had any pictures to identify me. Had she taken those two incredibly minor steps, we wouldn't even be talking about this right now... but she made a mistake and is learning a hard lesson as a result.

ETA: Regarding education in general, I think ours (America in general, practically everywhere) sucks.

ETA again! In light of Boulder's comment, I'll say that if she's an Honors teacher, it's very unlikely that she would have been referencing a special needs student when she commented on those she considered "dim", nor does it seem that was the implication.

 

[HollyS]

Education 101:

A. Students have the responsibility to sit down, be quiet, and absorb. Pay attention and learn. Do the work.

B. Parents have the obligation to ensure that their children understand their responsibility as outlined in A.

C. Parents have the obligation to provide the best environment they can manage for their children's performance of A.

D. Teachers have the responsibility of many little and not so little minds.

They don't need mountains of bs paperwork from their administration, their state, or the federal government. They don't need unwilling and willful children parented by either 'hover' parents or uninvolved parents. They don't need to pat the school kids on their heads, tell them everybody's a winner, give everybody a trophy or gold star, grade on a serious curve, or generally molly-coddle the little tykes into a sense of entitlement. (And yes, it happens every day across our nation.)

They don't need someone in an ivory tower "reinventing the wheel" of curriculum or teaching methods every single year. And they don't need to attend seminars out their wazoo, full of 'new and innovative' ideas for teaching, just to get Continuing Ed credits. A brand new package doesn't change the fact the 2 + 2 = 4.

They don't need to be told to teach the kids to pass a standardized test that their state legislature deemed necessary for moving forward grade to grade, or for graduation. That won't educate a child.

But, most of all, teachers don't need the general public weighing in on what is wrong with the educators, when the real problems so often begin and end at home.

Whether this gal should have, or shouldn't have blogged about her experience is immaterial. SHE isn't the problem.

 

[KatyWI]

Brava, Holly. Exactly.

 

[slg47]

They don't need someone in an ivory tower "reinventing the wheel" of curriculum or teaching methods every single year. And they don't need to attend seminars out their wazoo, full of 'new and innovative' ideas for teaching, just to get Continuing Ed credits. A brand new package doesn't change the fact the 2 + 2 = 4.

OK, I agree with a lot of what you said, but as someone in educational research, this statement really concerns me. A lot of curriculum is, well, old, and has not changed in 20+ years, even though there have been advances in research into how we think and learn. Many of the seminars are BS, but there is good research being done, and hopefully it can have some impact on curriculum, especially for teachers who think that good teaching is just reading from the text and memorizing the bold faced words.

 

[HollyS]

They don't need someone in an ivory tower "reinventing the wheel" of curriculum or teaching methods every single year. And they don't need to attend seminars out their wazoo, full of 'new and innovative' ideas for teaching, just to get Continuing Ed credits. A brand new package doesn't change the fact the 2 + 2 = 4.

OK, I agree with a lot of what you said, but as someone in educational research, this statement really concerns me. A lot of curriculum is, well, old, and has not changed in 20+ years, even though there have been advances in research into how we think and learn. Many of the seminars are BS, but there is good research being done, and hopefully it can have some impact on curriculum, especially for teachers who think that good teaching is just reading from the text and memorizing the bold faced words.

I'm sure there are a number of new ideas that have merit. Just as I'm sure there are some lousy teachers. But it would be easier to recognize progress and problems if there wasn't quite so much BS. Don't you agree?

 

[slg47]

definitely agree there is too much BS.

 

[monarch64]

They don't need someone in an ivory tower "reinventing the wheel" of curriculum or teaching methods every single year. And they don't need to attend seminars out their wazoo, full of 'new and innovative' ideas for teaching, just to get Continuing Ed credits. A brand new package doesn't change the fact the 2 + 2 = 4.

OK, I agree with a lot of what you said, but as someone in educational research, this statement really concerns me. A lot of curriculum is, well, old, and has not changed in 20+ years, even though there have been advances in research into how we think and learn. Many of the seminars are BS, but there is good research being done, and hopefully it can have some impact on curriculum, especially for teachers who think that good teaching is just reading from the text and memorizing the bold faced words.

I'm sure there are a number of new ideas that have merit. Just as I'm sure there are some lousy teachers. But it would be easier to recognize progress and problems if there wasn't quite so much BS. Don't you agree?

I agree with your point somewhat, Holly. But, like everything else education-wise (or really, in general) the issues aren't b&w and I think there is some merit to educators partaking in seminars and refreshing themselves a bit. There is definitely a lot of b.s. going on with that industry, though. My SO works for a non-profit who specializes in professional development of educators and I have witnessed these educators at a couple of seminars where I have assisted him stating that they didn't feel they'd gained anything from being there. So...this is another issue. Waste of time, or should teachers at least try to take something positive from the experience? In SO's opinion, some are a bust, some are helpful, depending really on the scheduled "acts." (I put the word "acts" in quotations and used the winking emoticon because I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek.)

 

[stringtheorygirl]

I currently teach 9th grade honors and non-accelerated students and have in the past taught 7th all the way up to 12th (public and private). There have been many moments where I wanted to scream, cry, and pull my hair out. The reason? Student apathy and the sense of entitlement that seems to pervade the populations I have served during my time in this career.

However.

It is often those students I feel I have failed to reach that return after graduation to thank me for sticking with them, caring about their progress, and "finally making history interesting!".

If I am feeling particularly frustrated with a student, I challenge myself to look a little deeper and discover the great things about this kid I may be overlooking -- the girl that never turns in her homework just happens to have a beautiful painting hanging in the student art gallery...the boy who always tries to disrupt the class shows incredible talent for speaking and argumentation during a class debate...the seemingly bitter/bored/lazy child in the back row writes a beautiful essay about his experiences volunteering abroad. Have I had difficulty with these students? Absolutely, but I try to remember how challenging this time was for me at that age. I will never forget my wonderful teachers without which high school would have been even more difficult to navigate.

I hope this teacher can find some peace. I may disagree with her actions but I know how tough the job can be and empathize with her frustration.

The quote I keep on my desk reads, "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".

 

[rockzilla]

But, most of all, teachers don't need the general public weighing in on what is wrong with the educators, when the real problems so often begin and end at home.

I believe education is the civil rights issue of our time, and I want the general public to care. It is a big, messy issue, yes. However, when 50% of kids dont graduate, when kids coming into middle school can't read, when there is a 20%+ percentage point gap in kids by race, I don't think its enough to say, "Well, kid had a bad family, tough luck."

I'm not saying heap the blame on teachers, but what I am saying is this problem is BIG, scary, and has huge implications for the future of our nation. As such, it is imperative that we question the status quo and leave no stone unturned in figuring out ways to right this sinking ship. Question unions? Sure. Question the training of teachers? Alright. Question the pay and tenure systems? Okay. Question the amount of time kids spend in school? Do it. Question how districts are set up and run? Yes. At this point, we can't have any sacred cows -- and teachers make a difference. There are fantastic teachers. There are mediocre teachers, who could be better with more training or support. There are people who should have never been teachers in the first place. There are others who were quite good at one time, but are now burnt out and biding their time until they can retire. We need to focus on 1) Attracting the best talent to teaching 2) Giving them the training (REAL world training, not the mountains of theory ed schools tend to spit out) so they can become excellent teachers 3) Fairly assess their effectiveness (how many kids improve 1+ grade levels while in their class) and get them the feedback & professional development necessary to improve 4) Give them the support of the district and administration 5) If they aren't effective, give them a way out to find another career they can be successful at.

I'm currently in an education class in my MBA program, and I have to say it has completely opened my eyes. Without education, the opportunities kids have in their lifetime close off, one-by-one. It is our duty as a society to give children the our best possible shot at a future, regardless of where they come from. We can acknowledge the problems, without using them as an excuse to write off whole generations of kids.

 

[kama_s]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

ksinger, would you care to elaborate?

Yes, unfortunately I am at work and cannot "elaborate". In fact I probably shouldn't really even be posting this, although as you see, I DO from time to time.

Later.

And yes, my comment has been misinterpreted. Forced terseness will do that.

If by 'this' you mean this topic, then I have to disagree with you. Topics such as this add a lot of value to this forum, engage different thoughts and ideas and give perspective to others. Knowledge share is priceless!! Do you not remember all the exciting vaccinations threads?!!!

 

[ksinger]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

ksinger, would you care to elaborate?

Yes, unfortunately I am at work and cannot "elaborate". In fact I probably shouldn't really even be posting this, although as you see, I DO from time to time.

Later.

And yes, my comment has been misinterpreted. Forced terseness will do that.

If by 'this' you mean this topic, then I have to disagree with you. Topics such as this add a lot of value to this forum, engage different thoughts and ideas and give perspective to others. Knowledge share is priceless!! Do you not remember all the exciting vaccinations threads?!!!

I have a little time to reply. Very little. I've had an enormously hard day of my own, and quite frankly, the replies in this thread have just depressed the living hell out of me.

What I see and have seen for quite a long time on this thread and others like it, is the truly vast divide between money/middle/upper-middle class and not, and it is why the discussion cannot occur. I would venture that the majority of people who post in these threads - and in this I include myself - have NO IDEA what environment my husband's kids come from. Not at a visceral level. (In fact, I don't recall that even any of the marvelous teachers here, have taught for more than a few short years in a poor urban school. Please pipe up and I apologize if I've missed you.) Oh, I'm sure there are a very few who were born a poor black sharecropper's child, but not too many, the mere fact that we, almost to a (wo)man, fret endlessly about how much his/her masters or PhD at an Ivy cost, all have excellent writing skills and highspeed internet tells me everyone here is miles away from that world. It truly might as well be another freakin' planet. And talking about this on a theoretical level is great - great when you had/or are parents who go the extra 10 miles for your kid, sacrifice maybe, by getting them into the most affluent districts, or pushing them to excel ala Tiger Mom, and by keeping them away from the seedier side of life. But there is a whole world out there where this is NOT the norm. Where the majority of an entire district has less than 25% of the kids come from nuclear families, where at least 10% of the kids are legally emancipated or have NO HOME, where 90% of the kids qualify for free lunches. Where a conservative estimate has 20% of the students with CHILDREN of their own. I can barely comprehend it myself, and I have seen the edges of it.

And then I hear comments such as "abandon ship" regarding public education, and read that California is going to lay off thousands more teachers, and every day my husband comes home and frets about the absentee rate, (about 30%), which his school is BLAMED FOR. WTF?? I just want to weep.

Taking a break ladies. Taking a break. Sorry to abandon my own thread. Carry on.

 

[megumic]

The First Amendment provides Ms. Munroe with the protection of her free speech. Unless I am missing something, there is nothing terroristic or threatening about the words she used to express herself. I simply don't see grounds for firing this teacher.

 

[monarch64]

Ksinger, come ON. There are several of us here who didn't attend Ivy League schools, who didn't grow up well-to-do, and who didn't have fabulous advantages. Do you really think that those ladies and gentlemen are going to stand up at every chance and shout it from the rooftops of Pricescope that they are not old money or something???

Anyway...as a lowly B.S. degree'd lady (or, however you put that, correct me if I'm wrong), why start a thread like this and then leave? Either come back and hang out and talk with all of us (I love hearing your opinions, honestly) or don't post it!

Sidebar--I like your posts, Karen, what you say is typically thought-provoking and informative. Please stay in this. Thanks.

 

[suchende]

If the ship is sinking, abandon it.

If it's a great, big, pricey ship that it's more effective to bail and patch than abandon and replace, I'm going to vote for rescuing it (the noble alternative of going down with the sinking ship has always struck me as inexpressibly silly). I had varied educational experiences growing up, myself: miserable public schools, miserable private schools that sank my folks into debt, city colleges, Ivy universities (as a student and a professor)- I'm like the Goldilocks of the educational system.

And, going off of those experiences? The institution doesn't matter, past a certain point (like, you know, it's nice to be able to afford enough chairs for everybody, and a nice metal detector or two if you need them). The teachers do matter. If we want to save the educational system, we need to raise the hiring standards (which probably means raising the salaries), give our hires the benefit of the doubt (no more silly mockable paint-by-the-numbers grading "comments," and much less in the way of rubrics), and do what we can do to keep the good teachers going instead of letting them get frustrated (or suspending them for nonsense "violations" while predators like the one SoCool mentions stay in the system).

Your AmeriCorp experience sounds immensely frustrating. Did it put you off the profession? I get the sense that you've transitioned to another field, and if that's the reason, I hope it won't come off as presumptuous if I chalk that up as another screw-up on the part of the existing system, and a loss to the field. We need talented, ambitious teachers, damnit!

You're exactly right, I chose not to continue in education because the system was just too broken. For me, it wasn't the students, though they were challenging, or the parents, though they were limited in many ways, but the teachers. Their negativity absolutely sapped me of any desire to work side-by-side with them.

I went on to lobby and am now a law student, hoping to continue in the industry I lobbied for. My law school is full of talented young people who did TFA or taught and gave up on it. I really don't think it's money that's keeping people out of the field, but rather the lack of respect, the risk of getting accused of inappropriate behavior (for men) and the frustrations of working with people who are attracted to the field as it is. Not to insult anyone on this board who is a teacher, but I am sure they are too aware teaching can attract people who are in it for the wrong reasons.

 

[zoebartlett]

I'm an elementary teacher, and I would never post things like that on a blog. It's really inappropriate, and I'm surprised she made such a bold move and posted those comments. I guess I just think about how nothing you post on the Internet is truly anonymous. People can, and often will, find out things that someone thought he/she was posting privately or anonymously. Would this author have been okay with it if her students' parents knew that she was posting about their children? I'm guessing they'd be upset, and rightfully so, in my opinion.

Eta: Even if the author wasn't posting about specific children, I still don't think it's appropriate.

I was just wondering, if you saw parents and students making comments about you on ratemyteachers, would you be upset that they could post anything anonymously whether the comments are good or bad?

I would be upset. I'd prefer that people handle issues they may have in private. Send me an e-mail. Come in for a conference. Give me a call. Any of those options would be better.

I understand that people need to vent, but I wish they would vent to me directly. It's just unprofessional, in my opinion, to do it another way.

 

[Circe]

I was just wondering, if you saw parents and students making comments about you on ratemyteachers, would you be upset that they could post anything anonymously whether the comments are good or bad?

The question wasn't aimed at me originally, but I've gotta say ... nope. I have a RateMyProfessor page: my first nasty comment made me cry, and the next student who jumped in to defend me made it better, and since then, I haven't really given it much credence. The problem with platforms like that is that they're essentially love/hate: the students who fall on the spectrum from "meh" to "content" generally don't bother hunting them down. In point of fact, it might say more about the student (proactive, reactionary, outspoken, bloviating, take your pick) than about the student's experience with you as a teacher.

 

[kama_s]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

ksinger, would you care to elaborate?

Yes, unfortunately I am at work and cannot "elaborate". In fact I probably shouldn't really even be posting this, although as you see, I DO from time to time.

Later.

And yes, my comment has been misinterpreted. Forced terseness will do that.

If by 'this' you mean this topic, then I have to disagree with you. Topics such as this add a lot of value to this forum, engage different thoughts and ideas and give perspective to others. Knowledge share is priceless!! Do you not remember all the exciting vaccinations threads?!!!

I have a little time to reply. Very little. I've had an enormously hard day of my own, and quite frankly, the replies in this thread have just depressed the living hell out of me.

What I see and have seen for quite a long time on this thread and others like it, is the truly vast divide between money/middle/upper-middle class and not, and it is why the discussion cannot occur. I would venture that the majority of people who post in these threads - and in this I include myself - have NO IDEA what environment my husband's kids come from. Not at a visceral level. (In fact, I don't recall that even any of the marvelous teachers here, have taught for more than a few short years in a poor urban school. Please pipe up and I apologize if I've missed you.) Oh, I'm sure there are a very few who were born a poor black sharecropper's child, but not too many, the mere fact that we, almost to a (wo)man, fret endlessly about how much his/her masters or PhD at an Ivy cost, all have excellent writing skills and highspeed internet tells me everyone here is miles away from that world. It truly might as well be another freakin' planet. And talking about this on a theoretical level is great - great when you had/or are parents who go the extra 10 miles for your kid, sacrifice maybe, by getting them into the most affluent districts, or pushing them to excel ala Tiger Mom, and by keeping them away from the seedier side of life. But there is a whole world out there where this is NOT the norm. Where the majority of an entire district has less than 25% of the kids come from nuclear families, where at least 10% of the kids are legally emancipated or have NO HOME, where 90% of the kids qualify for free lunches. Where a conservative estimate has 20% of the students with CHILDREN of their own. I can barely comprehend it myself, and I have seen the edges of it.

And then I hear comments such as "abandon ship" regarding public education, and read that California is going to lay off thousands more teachers, and every day my husband comes home and frets about the absentee rate, (about 30%), which his school is BLAMED FOR. WTF?? I just want to weep.

Taking a break ladies. Taking a break. Sorry to abandon my own thread. Carry on.

Ksinger, I normally go around PS ditto-ing pretty much everything you typically say. But I have to disagree, strongly, with you here. I just do not understand how you can make such a bold statement on the socio-economic backgrounds of PSers. This is a diamond forum, and for that reason, most of us do not feel the need to tell-all about our lifestyle or childhood.

I for one came from EXACTLY that background that you've mentioned above. I put my self throught undergrad and then graduate school. I remember eating nothing but plain boiled pasta for MONTHS. I remember being kicked out of my house and not having anywhere to go. I remember sleeping on friend's couches for weeks because I didn't have the money to get my own place. I remember taking my teenage brother in and supporting him because he didn't have anywhere to go either. I worked bloody damn hard to get my education and to be where I am right now. So just because I have an interest in diamonds, can speak engligh (which, mind you, is NOT my first language) and am posting on my high speed digital cable, it does not mean I cannot comprehend what other families are going through. I truly don't think you're being fair to most of us. We may not have first hand experience that your husband has, but it doesn't mean we're apathetic about it.

The fact that there is always discussion on these topics here means that people care enough to want to contribute their opinions and thoughts. Not everyone knows how to solve the situation, but there is open dialogue.

 

[Circe]

If the ship is sinking, abandon it.

If it's a great, big, pricey ship that it's more effective to bail and patch than abandon and replace, I'm going to vote for rescuing it (the noble alternative of going down with the sinking ship has always struck me as inexpressibly silly). I had varied educational experiences growing up, myself: miserable public schools, miserable private schools that sank my folks into debt, city colleges, Ivy universities (as a student and a professor)- I'm like the Goldilocks of the educational system.

And, going off of those experiences? The institution doesn't matter, past a certain point (like, you know, it's nice to be able to afford enough chairs for everybody, and a nice metal detector or two if you need them). The teachers do matter. If we want to save the educational system, we need to raise the hiring standards (which probably means raising the salaries), give our hires the benefit of the doubt (no more silly mockable paint-by-the-numbers grading "comments," and much less in the way of rubrics), and do what we can do to keep the good teachers going instead of letting them get frustrated (or suspending them for nonsense "violations" while predators like the one SoCool mentions stay in the system).

Your AmeriCorp experience sounds immensely frustrating. Did it put you off the profession? I get the sense that you've transitioned to another field, and if that's the reason, I hope it won't come off as presumptuous if I chalk that up as another screw-up on the part of the existing system, and a loss to the field. We need talented, ambitious teachers, damnit!

You're exactly right, I chose not to continue in education because the system was just too broken. For me, it wasn't the students, though they were challenging, or the parents, though they were limited in many ways, but the teachers. Their negativity absolutely sapped me of any desire to work side-by-side with them.

I went on to lobby and am now a law student, hoping to continue in the industry I lobbied for. My law school is full of talented young people who did TFA or taught and gave up on it. I really don't think it's money that's keeping people out of the field, but rather the lack of respect, the risk of getting accused of inappropriate behavior (for men) and the frustrations of working with people who are attracted to the field as it is. Not to insult anyone on this board who is a teacher, but I am sure they are too aware teaching can attract people who are in it for the wrong reasons.

TFA is one of those programs that I have very mixed feelings about: on the one hand, way to harness the idealism of youth! On the other hand, taking bright young people with good intentions and throwing them into the deep end with little to no training seems like a great way to disillusion them ... and to give them the wrong impression.

Your comment about people who are attracted to the field as it is kind of rubs me the wrong way - not because I am a teacher, at least not on that level, but because I'm one of the people teaching the teachers (my classes on YA and CL are required for Education majors). Most of my students are first-generation college students. For them, going to college is a huge step forward. Why are they going to college to become teachers, specifically? For some, it's a genuine calling, a passionate desire to pass their knowledge on to people in their own communities. For others? Well, a lot of them are doing it for the benefits and the salary, because while society as a whole might kid about how badly teachers are paid, from where they started out, it looks like, if not luxury, at least security, because of the unions and because of tenure. Pull that away, and, yes, you will possibly have a Platonic ideal of dedicated teachers who want to work For The Love.

Of course, with these salaries, it'll wind up looking a lot like higher ed, pursued by people who are for the most part independently wealthy, except that because there's less cachet, there'll be a lot fewer of them. So ... 3 or 4 dozen genuine saints, as opposed to however many millions of generally well-intentioned, more-or-less-competent, hey-this-is-what-you-get-when-you-think-a-lower-level-exec's-travel-budget-makes-a-whole-salary employees. And, oh, yeah, unless we fix the infrastructure, they, too might get frustrated and pull up stakes. Not a prettier picture, at least not from where I'm standing.

The problem with the system is that although it promises a modicum of security, the built-in trade is that it's willing to accept a degree of mediocrity in return. That goes for the quality of the candidates that you get when you pay less than the going rate, but worse yet, that goes for the conditions they're agreeing to work under, which also, in turn, affects their students ... who, when they finish high school, have to figure out what their sub-par education might qualify them for and what might offer them a step forward, and thus, the cycle repeats itself.

Solution? It's not abandoning the ship, because, to extend the metaphor, if you do, a hell of a lot of people will drown - the would-be teachers who will now be out of work instead of maybe improving with experience, the students who can't afford a charter school or don't have access to one that's even as good as the public counterpart. The solution is sinking a lot of money into it, so you attract better people who, in a generation or two, produce more qualified candidates in turn. When you're out there lobbying, I hope it's something you might keep in mind.

 

[Haven]

Circe, I really like your posts in this thread, and I love your last one.

Suchende--I'm sorry to hear that was your experience, but I have to share that I think it is very uncharacteristic of teachers as a whole. I've taught in several different schools, and I now teach teachers at the graduate level, and future teachers at the undergraduate level. Have I met apathetic, unhappy teachers? Absolutely. But they certainly are not the norm. Most teachers I know are passionate, engaged, hopeful individuals who dedicate their entire lives to helping children and young adults. It has been my experience that the people who lack true passion for the job do not last very long in it, and that's okay. Teaching obviously isn't your calling if you're going to allow one very small experience with one very small group of people turn you off from it forever. That's great, actually, because the career will burn out anyone who isn't passionate about it, and *those* are the people who become these "bad" teachers with whom you had the unfortunate experience of working.

As for this teacher and her blog, it certainly isn't something I would choose to do myself, but I do understand the need to let out one's grievances. We are constantly under fire as teachers, and used as the scapegoats for so many problems with education, that this story doesn't really surprise me. Of course, she's just adding fuel to the fire, and I'm unhappy to see my colleagues acting unprofessionally, in general, so it is disappointing. I don't know how I feel about whether she should lose her job or not, because I don't know if these thoughts of hers have affected her actual teaching.

I think sites where students can rate professors and teachers are wonderful, and I would have used them had they been around when I was in school. Of course, they must be approached with the same hesitation as any voluntary rating system, and what you see is likely only to be the extremes of students' impressions--the most and least satisfied, that is. But I think it's a good thing when our students have a voice, and an even better thing when they actually exercise their right to use it.

ksinger--You're so right about the divide between socioeconomic classes. I was the "poor" kid in a middle class neighborhood, which meant we weren't really poor at all, and I attended some of the best public schools in this nation. My husband was raised in the city, and attended a high school that my alma mater uses as a model of "the worst case scenario" even to this day. My parents were raised poor in the city, and they *wept* real tears when they took a tour of my high school because they were so proud that they moved us to a place with such a nice school. I have no idea what they experienced, or what students experience today. I get that.

 

[suchende]

To clarify, I don't think my experience is representative overall. I do think it's probably representative of poor, rural schools. I disagree pretty strongly that the answer is more money.