The quest for understanding vendor photos.

[smitcompton]

Hi,

About 6 yrs ago I started buying gemstones. After learning that I did not get what I thought I was buying, due to dishonest claims, I stopped buying for 3 yrs or so. Recently, I decided to buy the so called semi-precious stones. Now that I understood windows, color etc. I felt maybe I could do a better job of buying stones. In addition, these were not so expensive. So far so good.

As my buying increased, I found stones that I thought were a good opportunity. I seized the day and bought those only to be disappointed by the photo representions vs the actuaity. However, Amyethyst Guy may have given me one of the most important points of assessing gemstones on line. He said something to the effect..... After all we all know the base colors of gemstones are all darker then the picture shows. The picture captures the flash or the sparkle that we , of course want in our gemstone, but that is not the basic assessment we should be making.

I tried this new approach and it is working for me. I recently bought a padparacha color spinel. The color was like Linda W''s sapphire. But I wasn''t fooled. I looked at the undercolor, which was brownish orangie, and decided I would try that.
This color spinel is sold by Pala, Tan, and others for many $''s more. Most important I wasn''t disappointed in the base color. The dispersion of the sparkle color is just like Linda W. light pink- peach pad. I will now only make my assessment on purchases if I think the base color is right for me. Any light on the spinel floods the stone and you don''t even see the under color of browny orange. After all the vendor is flooding light on their stones so the base color is blocked out.

I want to thank Ammy Guy for this tidbit that helped me. I am awaiting more stones using this method. I am hoping I am on to something. Will let you know the result.

Thanks.
Annette
You all may be aware of this but for me this info just cilicked in.

 

[Barrett]

Glad I could be of help but I must pass the praise on to the folks that I picked that stuff up from..like zeo, TL, chrono, LD and a few of the others on here..keep us filled in if your new technique seems to work for you

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 6/7/2010 12:34:35 PM
Author:smitcompton
But I wasn''t fooled. I looked at the undercolor, which was brownish orangie, and decided I would try that.

Seeing the real body color of a stone is the crux of the problem when looking at pictures. The body color of the stone changes depending on how you are looking at it. If you are looking through a window the color will be dramatically lighter than when looking at the stone at different angles and with different backgrounds. This is why many sellers on E-Bay will have brightly lit backgrounds and tilt the stone a bit to show a brightly colored view through the inevitable tilt window of a dark stone. The same can be done with rough stones which can have a great looking body color when they are back lit and be WAY too dark when you actually have them in hand. The best way to determine body color with either cut or rough stones is to get an image with the stone on a piece of white paper, table down for cut stones. This allows you to judge the light intensity that the seller is using as well as get an adequate idea of body color. Of course you will always have to take into account the fact that some cameras will be more sensitive to some colors as well as knowing that many sellers will manipulate their images to change the contrast and color saturation just enough to make the stones look good, but not enough to have you send it back for being misrepresented.

 

[snowc]

Wow! That''s awesome! Never knew that..Luckily I only have one oopsie stone.. which is being replaced asap.

 

[T L]

People can judge a photo all they want, but the important thing is to also ASK QUESTIONS about hue, saturation, tonality, cutting, clarity, appearance in different light sources. If the vendor is honest, and not color blind

, they will be up front with the proper information. When I also look at color, I don''t look only at the body color, but I try to discern the unwanted modifiers I think I can see in that color. I see grey and brown in so many gems, it has disabled me from buying quite a bit.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

TL-- I tried to ask the questions and two different vendors answered dishonestly. I don''t know how to overcome that.
Perhaps this method is not fool proof either but since I didn''t look at the different colors in the photo in the past, I think this will be one new method in my tool kit. I have decided that the brown and grey modifiers don''t bother me as much as they do you. In fact, I paint, and love colors with a grey modifier. I may change back again but recently I have re-thought the color challenges. But I understand your purist thinking.

Thanks Michael. I will try to be smarter at looking.

Thanks to all for your responses

Annette

 

[chrono]

Just as vendors can answer your questions dishonestly, they can also tamper with the pictures/videos so it looks worse IRL.

 

[lelser]

My husband takes the photos, so it''s easy for us to re-do shots that don''t correctly represent the stone. When he''s done with the photos, I sit beside the computer with the stones in hand, in natural light, and make sure that the stone in my hand and the photo match.

For my "sexy" shots, I use Jeffrey Hunt, but while those pictures are gorgeous I wouldn''t use them to sell the stone. When someone opens the box the response should be "it looks better than the photo!"

No matter how well the photo represents the stone, it only captures a point in time. If someone lets me know what''s important to them, I can always tell them if the stone is potentially a good fit or not.

Cheers,

Lisa

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 6/8/2010 1:49:02 PM
Author: lelser
My husband takes the photos, so it''s easy for us to re-do shots that don''t correctly represent the stone. When he''s done with the photos, I sit beside the computer with the stones in hand, in natural light, and make sure that the stone in my hand and the photo match.

For my ''sexy'' shots, I use Jeffrey Hunt, but while those pictures are gorgeous I wouldn''t use them to sell the stone. When someone opens the box the response should be ''it looks better than the photo!''

No matter how well the photo represents the stone, it only captures a point in time. If someone lets me know what''s important to them, I can always tell them if the stone is potentially a good fit or not.

Cheers,

Lisa

Lisa - your stones look much better in photographs than in real life.
Another person whose photographs are very close to what I see in real life is Gene.

 

[T L]

Date: 6/7/2010 7:49:11 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi,

TL-- I tried to ask the questions and two different vendors answered dishonestly. I don''t know how to overcome that.
Perhaps this method is not fool proof either but since I didn''t look at the different colors in the photo in the past, I think this will be one new method in my tool kit. I have decided that the brown and grey modifiers don''t bother me as much as they do you. In fact, I paint, and love colors with a grey modifier. I may change back again but recently I have re-thought the color challenges. But I understand your purist thinking.

Thanks Michael. I will try to be smarter at looking.

Thanks to all for your responses

Annette

It depends on the questions you ask too. Some gem dealers can spot a gem novice vs one that has been collecting for a while, based on the types of questions they ask. They''re less likely to dupe a gem collector than a novice. However, that being said, I find some dealers to be color blind (or maybe I''m color blind), as I swear I see modifiers in gems or hues that they say are not there. For example, I purchased a spessartite that the vendor considered it a highly saturated pure orange. I saw a desaturated orangey yellow stone with a bit of brown in it, reminded me of a yellow ochre color except if you shaded the stone with your hand or something. When I showed it to someone, they also thought it was yellow.

 

[Jim Rentfrow]

Lisa - your stones look much better in photographs than in real life.

Dont you mean that the other way around???

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 6/8/2010 2:50:46 PM
Author: Jim Rentfrow
Lisa - your stones look much better in photographs than in real life.

Dont you mean that the other way around???

Yeah, absolutely. I actually meant to say "worse", and it is obvious because I said "another cutter" and then proceeded with praising Gene. I added a new posting to correct my mistake. I know it sounds horrible, especially since I bought a GREAT stone from Lisa, and then some, and planned to buy more. Let me call it - "slip of the computer". Blame on the bug or something like it...

 

[lelser]

Didn''t scare me a bit (she says peeling herself off the floor.) Many thanks for the correction!

 

[PrecisionGem]

It''s always best to see the stone in person. Even the most accurate picture will only capture the stone in one type of light, and at one angle. Most pictures don''t show dispersion well either. An easy return policy is still the best way to go.

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 6/8/2010 3:43:04 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
It''s always best to see the stone in person. Even the most accurate picture will only capture the stone in one type of light, and at one angle. Most pictures don''t show dispersion well either. An easy return policy is still the best way to go.

I could not agree more Gene! Judging stones from images alone can be very misleading even with great photography. Having a stone in hand is the only valid way to judge it.

Brilliance isn''t captured well in images either. Color is very dependent on the type and amount of light. Some stones can be beautiful but just don''t photograph well. There are limitations created by cameras, monitors, the human eye and personal tastes. A solid return policy is the best assurance of being satisfied with an on-line gem purchase.

Richard M. (Rick Martin)

 

[T L]

Date: 6/8/2010 3:43:04 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
It's always best to see the stone in person. Even the most accurate picture will only capture the stone in one type of light, and at one angle. Most pictures don't show dispersion well either. An easy return policy is still the best way to go.

I would agree with you, but for all the S&H fees I'd paid for the zillions of returns I made over the years, I could have bought the Hope diamond. LOL!! That's why I really try to ascertain the stone in photos and ask specific questions before I purchase. Sometimes though, you do have to see a stone, there's just no other way.

 

[iLander]

i used to think a video was a good way to judge, but not after I bought a color change garnet that looked nothing like the video! If it was ugly, I would have returned it, but it was pleasant, so I kept it.

i expect variation in a photo, but to run across an "adjusted" video really surprised me.

I prefer to buy from U.S. dealers because I''ve sent stuff overseas and, depending on the country, it''s a potential mess. Besides, I like to keep independent artists employed, they''re a valuable resource.

I tend to ask A LOT of annoying questions before I buy a stone.

TL seems to have some kind of knack with successful overseas shipping, if we could be filled in . . .

 

[T L]

I ship US postal first class express mail. It costs a bit, but it gets back there quickly. I declare the items as documents, and there is a tracking number. I would ship registered, but once it leaves the United States, I heard it doesn't have the same security as it would in the US. The postal worker told me this. I figure the speed of shipping helps get it there quickly and with security because of the speed required to ship it back. It takes about five business days or sometimes less to get back to Thailand. I also pack in a flat bubble lined envelope that looks like it would hold documents, and I don't put in a gem box, but keep the gems wrapped in gem paper securely, and I enclose some paper.

 

[Sagebrush]

All,

As other professionals on the forum have pointed out, there is really no answer to the photography problem and on the "honesty" issue, there will always be a difference between the sellers eye and the buyers eye. That problem exists between professionals as well. Sometimes I get stones in the mail after having a long discussion with the seller and I wonder if perhaps we had been speaking different languages. Was I speaking Chinese?

One rule of thumb, if it sounds or looks too good to be true it probably is (too good to be true). There are a lot of bottom feeders out there who either think the sellers, particularly foreign vendors are either stupid or foolish, that Burmese pigeon blood rubies can be purchased for $500 per carat and on and on. If you want to avoid disappointment and excessive return shipping costs, common sense should be the rule.

Particularly in the higher ranges of quality, photographs rarely, if ever, accurately represent the stone. For me, it is exceptionally frustrating to sit on the phone with a client who insists that the photograph is the stone. Often, when I point out differences, I can tell that they simply don''t believe me.

At any rate, reasonable expectations and a good return policy is the best insurance.

 

[T L]

There are also some gems that you should NEVER EVER buy without a reputable lab certificate, accurate photo or not. I know I keep harping on this, but I think it's really important, and it should be shouted from the rooftops. I wish we had a sticky on treatments of gems in this forum. I feel like I'm repeating myself all the time.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

There are many conventions for portraying gemstones online and in photos. Light backgrounds, dark backgrounds, sunlight, daylight balanced light, high depth of field, narrow focus. There’s the cold scientific rendition only concerned with color and the shot to convey a sense of beauty and even emotion.

What I call the product shot seems to take emphasis in the quest for the perfect method to capture an image -- how to best represent and sell the gemstone online. This particular approach has one major shortcoming that I see though. How to portray a true representation of the gemstone in a tiny image true to scale; seeing a gem true to life size in a small photo does not exaggerate inclusions, scratches, meetpoints – it’s also the optimum method to portray commercial stones.

There is a strong defense to this method though. Hold your stone at arms length and view it under various lighting conditions. Is it beautiful, do you love it? That is all the really matters in the long run. Throw those inclusions and missed meetpoints out the window. (Don’t pay too much for it though.)

Watch for the photos that enlarge the stone to the level of detail that will show inclusions, missed meetpoints, windows, rounded girdles and a myriad of other details. Listen to the vendor''s description of color and light display very close and always compare that desciption to the photo. This is one method to insure a successful purchase of beautiful stone, and a gem that is indeed too true to be believed. There are many of them out there.

It’s devilish difficult to capture beautiful enlarged images of gemstones. The normal “product shot” boundaries are almost always pushed to extreme limits. Lighting the gem for optimum display is not counter to capturing the beauty of the stone, and portraying an accurate rendition of lighting is always the ultimate goal.

In the end, “the art” is determined by the need of the market.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi All again,

One of my posts got lost yesterday so I''ll try to reconstruct. I mentioned on another post that I did ask the right questions of this vendor before i purchased the stone. When I received it I wondered whether or not he was color blind. I sent it back without any harsh words. It wasn''t an ebay seller. He refunded my S&H so I felt a lot better, but I won''t buy from him again.

My new tool in my toolkit did not work the second time around. I just opened my package and lo and behold, each stone has a hugh window that leaves the stone unusable except for someone who knows nothing about gems. His photos were not of top color, so I didn''t expect that, but no window was showing at all in any of the three stones. I have a more expensive one coming so I;ll wait on that one before I send them back.

This time I am not as angry as I was with Thiagemstore, but I know my power in the feedback. These people have 100% good feedback, but not for long.

I am not in agreement with the adage"you get what you pay for". The first stone from this vendor is really nice and considering the price others are charging for similar stiones you can get a good deal here. I probably agree that top color gems fall into that category but lesser ones can still be had, if you look, at cheaper prices.

I have learned that these thai vendors know gems well. This vendor is from Singapore and gets good ratings and repeat customers all the time.

I''m slowing down again in my buying. I have 2 very nice demantoids and 1 pad color spinel that I purchased, I did buy some semi-precious that were as expected.

I guess we can only do so much and one must really see the stone.
TL did you notice that Thaigemstore is offering lab reports now?

Every now and then I think this is a good topic.
Thanks,
Annette

 

[T L]

Date: 6/9/2010 1:36:25 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi All again,

One of my posts got lost yesterday so I''ll try to reconstruct. I mentioned on another post that I did ask the right questions of this vendor before i purchased the stone. When I received it I wondered whether or not he was color blind. I sent it back without any harsh words. It wasn''t an ebay seller. He refunded my S&H so I felt a lot better, but I won''t buy from him again.

My new tool in my toolkit did not work the second time around. I just opened my package and lo and behold, each stone has a hugh window that leaves the stone unusable except for someone who knows nothing about gems. His photos were not of top color, so I didn''t expect that, but no window was showing at all in any of the three stones. I have a more expensive one coming so I;ll wait on that one before I send them back.

This time I am not as angry as I was with Thiagemstore, but I know my power in the feedback. These people have 100% good feedback, but not for long.

I am not in agreement with the adage''you get what you pay for''. The first stone from this vendor is really nice and considering the price others are charging for similar stiones you can get a good deal here. I probably agree that top color gems fall into that category but lesser ones can still be had, if you look, at cheaper prices.

I have learned that these thai vendors know gems well. This vendor is from Singapore and gets good ratings and repeat customers all the time.

I''m slowing down again in my buying. I have 2 very nice demantoids and 1 pad color spinel that I purchased, I did buy some semi-precious that were as expected.

I guess we can only do so much and one must really see the stone.
TL did you notice that Thaigemstore is offering lab reports now?

Every now and then I think this is a good topic.
Thanks,
Annette

There are certain gems that you cannot get less than a certain pricepoint per carat. Fine untreated Burma ruby is an example, and if you see a dealer advertising a 99 cents auction on a fine untreated Burma ruby, RUN!! Or like the pink diamond that amethystguy posted, RUN!! RUN!! RUN!!

However, among semi-precious gems, there is a the gamut of prices per carat. Regular yellowish chrysoberyl is a good example, as I''ve seen prices across the board for fine specimens since it''s a relatively unknown and underrated gem. I do shop around quite a bit as I do like good deals.

No Smit, I did not realize Thaigemstore is offerring lab reports now. I think they''re following some examples we''ve seen here, and I suspect he reads Pricescope.

 

[iLander]

Date: 6/9/2010 1:36:25 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi All again,

This time I am not as angry as I was with Thiagemstore, but I know my power in the feedback. These people have 100% good feedback, but not for long.


I don''t know if this deserves a negative feedback if you are getting your money back, that seems a little harsh. Consider a neutral with a note saying not as described. Also, a negative is less likely to stay on Ebay, since the vendor can dispute negatives and have it withdrawn by saying they offered you a refund.

Someone on pricescope mentioned this link to withdrawn ebay feedbacks, it''s pretty useful for a behind the scenes: http://www.toolhaus.org/

I sometimes sell on ebay, and you wouldn''t believe how unscrupulous some buyers can be, so I have some sympathy for sellers. NO sympathy for dishonest sellers, it makes it hard for everybody else.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi, Ilander

I think you have misunderstood what was said. I have not even contacted this seller. I am waiting for another stone from him.
I referred to a past transaction with another ebay seller that has a poor reputation. That was woirked out.

The other transaction was not with an ebay seller and he refunded my money.

However. feedback is there for a reason. I aim to use it.

Thanks,

Annette

 

[iLander]

Date: 6/10/2010 12:58:10 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi, Ilander


I think you have misunderstood what was said. I have not even contacted this seller. I am waiting for another stone from him.

I referred to a past transaction with another ebay seller that has a poor reputation. That was woirked out.


The other transaction was not with an ebay seller and he refunded my money.


However. feedback is there for a reason. I aim to use it.


Thanks,


Annette

You''re right, I did misunderstand, sorry!

Of course you should use feedback, that''s what it''s for.

Back to the original subject of vendor photos, I saw this on Barry''s site and I think it says it all: same rough (I think, same type anyway, garnet) two different types of lighting. The yellower one is incandescent light, the whiter one is reveal daylight-type bulbs.

 

[iLander]

This is the reveal shot, the first was incandescent.

I found this under Barry's gem topic of the month, he was actually discussing the art of faceting, but I thought the photo was appropriate for this use.

All it says to me is: ask a lot of questions. Then cross your fingers!

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

Date: 6/9/2010 1:36:25 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi All again,

One of my posts got lost yesterday so I''ll try to reconstruct. I mentioned on another post that I did ask the right questions of this vendor before i purchased the stone. When I received it I wondered whether or not he was color blind. I sent it back without any harsh words. It wasn''t an ebay seller. He refunded my S&H so I felt a lot better, but I won''t buy from him again.

My new tool in my toolkit did not work the second time around. I just opened my package and lo and behold, each stone has a hugh window that leaves the stone unusable except for someone who knows nothing about gems. His photos were not of top color, so I didn''t expect that, but no window was showing at all in any of the three stones. I have a more expensive one coming so I;ll wait on that one before I send them back.

This time I am not as angry as I was with Thiagemstore, but I know my power in the feedback. These people have 100% good feedback, but not for long.

I am not in agreement with the adage''you get what you pay for''. The first stone from this vendor is really nice and considering the price others are charging for similar stiones you can get a good deal here. I probably agree that top color gems fall into that category but lesser ones can still be had, if you look, at cheaper prices.

I have learned that these thai vendors know gems well. This vendor is from Singapore and gets good ratings and repeat customers all the time.

I''m slowing down again in my buying. I have 2 very nice demantoids and 1 pad color spinel that I purchased, I did buy some semi-precious that were as expected.

I guess we can only do so much and one must really see the stone.
TL did you notice that Thaigemstore is offering lab reports now?

Every now and then I think this is a good topic.
Thanks,
Annette

Who did you get the gems from? I try to keep track of who people have good and bad experiences with.

 

[Arkteia]

TL - say, you bought an expensive stone from a vendor overseas...Would it help insuring it before you ship it back, and how would one do it? I mean, there are stones in some ebay websites that cost over 10K...

 

[beaujolais]

I am not understanding this and I really want to so maybe someone can please help.

I'll put what Smit said then put what I think it means next to it in parenthesis. Maybe someone can tell me where I'm not getting it.

Note, it's not that she/he didn't say it well. I'm just not getting the concept.

Smit:

I recently bought a padparacha color spinel. The color was like Linda W's sapphire. (OK, so Linda's is an orange/pink?)

This color spinel is sold by Pala, Tan, and others for many $'s more. (Why would a stone with an orange/brown undertone cost more than one that is a true orange/pink??)

Most important I wasn't disappointed in the base color. The dispersion of the sparkle color is just like Linda W. light pink-peach pad. (So stones with an orange/brown undertone can sparkle orange/pink and that is what really matters?)

I will now only make my assessment on purchases if I think the base color is right for me (Smit likes her stone, which has an orange/brown undertone. Is she saying she prefers that undertone to a orange/pink undertone? But the ones with orange/brown undertones cost more than the traditional pad color. Oh, I'm so lost here.)

Any light on the spinel floods the stone and you don't even see the under color of browny orange. (Still, sometimes that stone won't be in big light, so I don't think I'd prefer the orange/brown tone to the orange/pink tone.)

Help please.

Thanks, Sonoma