The Piano Thread

[kenny]

I didn't want to threadjack the materialistic thread, hence this thread.
I'm going to move some posts from there to here, then proceed with the discussion.

"by Chrono » 01 Jul 2013 07:30
I don't collect pianos but put in me in a store with even a single Steinway and I'll never leave the store. DH had to drag me out of the store during our last vacation as I just lost track of time, playing one piano to the next, comparing the key action and sound quality.

 

[kenny]

Chrono, perhaps you already know this but ....
There are several pianos that are better than NY Steinways.
Please seek out and try, Bösendorfer, Blüthner, C. Bechstein, August Förster, Steingraeber & Sohne, Fazioli, Grotrian, Mason & Hamlin, Hamburg Steinway.

They are all German except Fazioli is Italian, Mason & Hamlin is American and Bosendorfer is from Austria.
With the exception of Mason & Hamlin and maybe August Förster, they are all more expensive than a NY Steinway.

NY Steinway has been resting on its laurels for 60 or so years.
Yes they are capable of making and do make a FEW superb 7 foot and 9 foot grands, but most of them are very ho hum compared to the brands above.
Also every piano needs 20 to 80 hours of preparation after it leaves the factory by a competent piano technician in the dealer showroom and in the home before and during its break-in period but very few get it because most customers are ignorant.
Steinway dealers are the worst about not prepping their pianos because most are sold to be used as as status symbols, not musical instruments.
Why should Steinway waste thousands of dollars on labor?
If you are aware of this you can insist of full prep, voicing and regulation and you'll get it at no charge.

Also please buy this book. http://www.amazon.com/The-Piano-Book-Buying-Owning/dp/1929145012
Very eye-opening.
You can get SOOOO ripped off buying a new or used piano.
I've heard then used car salesmen get fired for being unethical they are welcomed by piano dealers to sell pianos.

Insiders say that Steinway makes the best piano MARKETING in the world.
They are known to do unethical, or worse, things to force pianists to play only on Steinways, and prevent other brands from being seen on major concert stages and in important music schools.

Whenever I hear someone gush about Steinway this is my involuntary response.

 

[kenny]

Then Chrono posted ...

by Chrono » 01 Jul 2013 10:46
Alas I live in a remote area where my options are dreadfully limited. I did get a chance to try a Bosendorfer and it was wonderful. I am doubtful I will ever get the chance to try a Bluthner, Bechstein or a few others. Perhaps it was the piano itself but the Hamlin was not impressive, nor was the Fazioli. A 9 foot grand is too large for my room but 7 foot will fit. Have you ever tried any the above pianos? What is your impression?

 

[kenny]

Many brands have time periods during which they made fine pianos or poor ones for various reasons.
The quality of Blüthner suffered during the communist era, since they are made in Leipzig, located in the former East Germany.

Between 1912 and 1996 M&H quality was much lower.
I bought a new 7 foot model BB around 2000 and it was superb, especially after tons of prep from the best tech.
BTW, during price negotiations instead of insisting on the 'free' included prep by the tech of the dealer's choice, I asked them to knock off X dollars and I'll hire my own tech, pay him.
Then the tech will have one boss instead of two pulling him in different directions money-wise.
I gave my tech carte blanche to optimize the piano over the first few years of its life.

I only sold the M&H because a 9'2" Blüthner stole my heart.
The M&H, while sublime, did have an overpowering bass.
While perfect for Rachmaninov or Liszt, chest-thumping bass sounded silly and was hard to control for Bach and Mozart.

The Blüthner has a very even voice throughout all 88 notes, and nothing can reproduce the lowest notes like a 9 footer with clarity and appropriate firmness.
Her voice is very clear, transparent and lyrical, much unlike the thick dense sound of a Steinway or Mason & Hamlin.
The top 15 or so notes have 4 strings not 3.
The extra string is not struck by the hammer, it just resonates sympathetically for fff.

100 years ago there was a huge variety of piano tones and thousands of piano manufacturers in America and Europe.
Today in America there is virtually one piano tone every American ear aspires to, the Steinway tone.
Since Steinway prevented other brands from getting onto important concert stages or being used much in recording studios Americans today are virtually brainwashed into considering any other piano tone.
Sad, because if you play the above brands you'll experience a cornucopia of gorgeous piano tones.
When Americans play them the first impression is often disappointment ... but after 20 minutes of playing it's like a new exotic flower blooming under your hands.

I've played all of the above brands and the C. Bechstein is the coldest, but still lovely, sound to my hears.
Fazioli and Steingraeber are like orchestras in that there is a vast range of tonal qualities you can pull out of them.
The Hamburg Steinways are a blend of the NY Steinway sound but with that European emphasis on the fundamental frequency as opposed to the higher harmonics.

 

[kenny]

Here's my baby.

 

[amc80]

My grandfather was an amazing pianist. His mother had bought a Mason & Hamlin back in the 1920s. There was a second piano at some point because my grandma has told me they used to duet (on separate pianos). My brother inherited the piano when my grandad died, but it remained in my grandparents' house. Well, the house is up for sale and the piano is now in my living room. I love having it. My 10 month old loves "playing." I can practically hear my grandfather yelling "don't bang the keys!"

 

[amc80]

Here he is...wish I could attach video, it almost sounds like an actual song.

 

[chrono]

Amc,
He's so cute! Looks like it's time to start lessons.

 

[kenny]

Awwww.

 

[amc80]

Amc,
He's so cute! Looks like it's time to start lessons.

He loves it! He will crawl over to it, stand up, and start playing on his own. My brother has a BA in Music Education so he will be in charge of all lessons

 

[kenny]

Lucky kid, to have such a fine piano to start on.

 

[amc80]

Lucky kid, to have such a fine piano to start on.

I know! It's crazy, I grew up playing that piano every time I visited my grandparents. I never thought my own kid(s) would be playing on it as well. Luckily, my brother is a bit of a drifter (a very typical musician type) so I'm guessing we will have the piano for many years. I'd love to take proper lessons. I can read music and play okay, but it's all self taught....

 

[chrono]

Kenny,
I have heard the same about each manufacture having their hey days and not so good years. Sometimes, a company gets bought over or manufacturing is shifted elsewhere and the quality is compromised. I've checked out some piano forums for more information but they seemed rather snotty to me. The common advice seemed to be that uprights were too inferior, even for budding pianists, which I disagree with. There are some surprisingly good uprights around and do the job just fine for the budget friendly and space conscious.

You live in CA where there are many piano options and techs. Where I live, the tech has to drive an hour to my home to tune my piano and there's absolutely no traffic so it is all miles. Does this give you a fair idea of how incredibly remote I am? I'm not even sure I can find a tech on my own!

There has to be a middle ground where one can play a variety of time periods from the Baroque through Modern pieces. I have noted that each era requires different "sounds" from the piano. My favourite era is definitely the Romantic period so I like a good solid resonating bass with very responsive key action. You are talking about 9 footers though which can overcome practically most issues that smaller babies to mid-sized grands suffer.

 

[chrono]

I know! It's crazy, I grew up playing that piano every time I visited my grandparents. I never thought my own kid(s) would be playing on it as well. Luckily, my brother is a bit of a drifter (a very typical musician type) so I'm guessing we will have the piano for many years. I'd love to take proper lessons. I can read music and play okay, but it's all self taught....

I have not known anyone to regret formal lessons and it's never too early to start. I started at age 4, playing continuously for the next 15 years. I regret that my eldest started "late" at age 6 but he is doing so well and I am surprised how adept he is at the instrument. We had a simple upright Yamaha too. The lucky guy gets to start off with such a rich sounding piano.

 

[amc80]

I know! It's crazy, I grew up playing that piano every time I visited my grandparents. I never thought my own kid(s) would be playing on it as well. Luckily, my brother is a bit of a drifter (a very typical musician type) so I'm guessing we will have the piano for many years. I'd love to take proper lessons. I can read music and play okay, but it's all self taught....

I have not known anyone to regret formal lessons and it's never too early to start. I started at age 4, playing continuously for the next 15 years. I regret that my eldest started "late" at age 6 but he is doing so well and I am surprised how adept he is at the instrument. We had a simple upright Yamaha too. The lucky guy gets to start off with such a rich sounding piano.

He will definitely have some sort of music lessons. I started on violin when I was 7 or so. I've read a lot about the correlation between early music lessons and being good at math. Even if he hates it, I want to expose him to music from a young age. If we still have the piano when he's 4 or 5 that will likely be what we go with.

 

[chrono]

He will definitely have some sort of music lessons. I started on violin when I was 7 or so. I've read a lot about the correlation between early music lessons and being good at math. Even if he hates it, I want to expose him to music from a young age. If we still have the piano when he's 4 or 5 that will likely be what we go with.

Do you still play the violin? It is my second instrument and although I love it, it seems more difficult to me. I like that it is more portable though. Yes, just the exposure to music is beneficial, regardless of instrument. I dislike the hours of necessary practice everyday way back then but appreciate the sound and quality it produces today.

 

[amc80]

He will definitely have some sort of music lessons. I started on violin when I was 7 or so. I've read a lot about the correlation between early music lessons and being good at math. Even if he hates it, I want to expose him to music from a young age. If we still have the piano when he's 4 or 5 that will likely be what we go with.

Do you still play the violin? It is my second instrument and although I love it, it seems more difficult to me. I like that it is more portable though. Yes, just the exposure to music is beneficial, regardless of instrument. I dislike the hours of necessary practice everyday way back then but appreciate the sound and quality it produces today.

I don't. I played for 3 years or so. I quit once school band started. Switched to cornet....then to french horn, baritone, and trombone. Then stopped all together when I got into high school. If I had the time and money I think I'd do cello next. Not quite as portable as a violin, but I love the sound.

 

[kenny]

There has to be a middle ground where one can play a variety of time periods from the Baroque through Modern pieces. I have noted that each era requires different "sounds" from the piano. My favourite era is definitely the Romantic period so I like a good solid resonating bass with very responsive key action. You are talking about 9 footers though which can overcome practically most issues that smaller babies to mid-sized grands suffer.

Yes, ideally we'd all have four or five nine-foot or seven foot grands, one for each era.

One other thing about longer grands is their longer keys.
Remember the see saw on a child's playground?
Remember how easy it was to make your side go down when you sat at the edge, compared to how hard it was to get your side to go down if you sat closer to the pivot point in the middle?

Same with piano keys.
Longer is better.
Our thumb and baby fingers usually hit the keys near the edge, but our middle fingers hit the keys near the fallboard.
Unavoidable laws of physics means more force is needed to depress the key at the fallboard compare to the edge.
The difference in force needed is greater on shorter keys of the shorter grands; that's a bad thing.
Generally the longer the grand piano the longer the keys.
This is one reason longer piano actions feel more even.

The main reason grands play better is gravity pulls the hammer back down after it hits the string.
The force of gravity is always constant.
All uprights depend on springs, which can and do vary in strength.
Yes the best uprights have better built and adjusted action springs, but they can cost tens of thousands of dollars, even $50,000.
Those are sold to people who have money for a grand but little space ... places like Manhattan or European cities.

 

[babs23r]

Here's my baby.

Kenny, that's some heck of a beautiful piano. My son plays, and we bought him a " beginner" baby grand. Has a masters in music education and needs a full time job. His first instrument is clarinet. Kenny, who did you study under?

 

[kenny]

Here's my baby.

Kenny, that's some heck of a beautiful piano. My son plays, and we bought him a " beginner" baby grand. Has a masters in music education and needs a full time job. His first instrument is clarinet. Kenny, who did you study under?

Thanks.
I'm sorry, but I try to avoid name dropping. ... plus it could reveal my identity.

I love the clarinetist Richard Stoltzman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5GC9F5yyE

 

[babs23r]

Here's my baby.

Kenny, that's some heck of a beautiful piano. My son plays, and we bought him a " beginner" baby grand. Has a masters in music education and needs a full time job. His first instrument is clarinet. Kenny, who did you study under?

Thanks.
I'm sorry, but I try to avoid name dropping. ... plus it could reveal my identity.

I love the clarinetist Richard Stoltzman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5GC9F5yyE

Yes, he is a great clarinetist. Name one of your favorite composers, and what piece are you working on now?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Here's my baby.

Kenny,that is a beautiful piano ...

 

[kenny]

Name one of your favorite composers, and what piece are you working on now?

Mozart.
I'm working on his Sonata K333 second movement, andante cantabile.
Here's Uchida's version.
She is my favorite Mozart interpreter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3YNU2E1xc4

How about you?

Thanks DF.
She sounds even better than she looks.

 

[babs23r]

Name one of your favorite composers, and what piece are you working on now?

Mozart.
I'm working on his Sonata K333 second movement, andante cantabile.
Here's Uchida's version.
She is my favorite Mozart interpreter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3YNU2E1xc4

How about you?

Thanks DF.
She sounds even better than she looks.

The Mozart is beautiful. I love his compositions and his clarinet concerto K622 is magnificent. My son actually saw her play at Lincoln Center with the New York Philharmonic and said that she was wonderful. She played Beethovens 4 th piano concerto . He is currently working on Beethoven's Waldstein Sonata.

 

[texaskj]

One of my favorite parts of the Cliburn is when the contestants choose which piano they'll play on.
Their reactions to each one and their reasons for choosing this one over that one are just fascinating.

 

[amc80]

Some more pics! I'm sure some of you know way more about this piano than I do

 

[kenny]

Looks like M&H's Model A, which is 5'8".
This model is known for its very powerful bass for the size.

There is wide agreement that anything smaller than 5'8" is a baby grand, so yours would just be called a grand.

It looks like the copper-wound bass strings are not too tarnished so I'd guess it got restrung some time after the 1920s.
Hopefully it got other worn out stuff replaced too since pianos live about as long as people do, and even then it depends how well each was taken care of.

While yours is a very fine piano all pianos need tuning twice a year, whether played or not.
Beyond tuning, all pianos benefit from other work like regulation and voicing.
Unfortunately few pianos get any attention beyond tuning.
Few owners know about voicing and regulation, and few piano techs are competent to do it.
Actually there is a list of over 50 operations a competent tech can perform to optimize the function of all moving parts and the tone.

If you are interested in optimizing your piano buy The Piano Book I linked to above to become familiar with terms and what to expect.
It won't be cheap, but is worth every penny especially on a fine old piano.
Key to optimizing a piano is finding a piano technician competent to perform this advanced work.
Call around to local colleges and Universities and performance venues and ask them for referrals.

Since a child will be starting on this piano it is very important it is not only in tune ...
It must also be up to concert pitch of A=440, (A=443 or so in Europe).
Many old pianos that were not tuned regularly fall very very flat, and many cannot be brought up to concert pitch without breaking many strings or damaging the bridge and soundboard.
In this case the tech will just tune the entire piano to itself, but the whole piano will be flat.

Consult your tech or a musician with a tuning fork to check your piano to see how flat it is, if at all.
A child starting out on a piano that is very flat will have their pitch-sense ruined for life.
This is only a problem if he grows up to be a professional, or serious musician, which frankly is not likely.

Pianos are unique in that the musician does not carry it around, as a violinist would.
This means pianists usually don't know very much about their instrument beyond how to play it.
In fact part of piano pedagogy is to train you to get the most out of every piano you encounter, not complain about voicing and regulation issues.
Owners of instruments that can be carried to performances usually know how to change pads and adjust their instrument.
What I'm getting at is even the most competent pianist or piano teacher in the world probably does know much about pianos, but will come across as if they do.

Do be careful about the fallboard (the key cover that goes up and down).
Children's fingers can be smashed by them.
Some companies today make fallboards with some mechanism that makes them close slowly for safety.

One thing unique to Mason and Hamlins that make them last longer than other pianos is their tension resonator.
Lie on your back under the piano and look up.
It is the metal thingie that looks like a spider.



When piano soundboards (the big board of spruce under the strings) are built they are curved so they can amplify the sound.
Over time the curvature may flatten out and the tone and sustain will suffer.
The tension resonator's job is to pull in on the rim, which supports the soundboard, preventing it from flattening out.
No other brand has this.

 

[amc80]

Wow, Kenny! Thank you so much for the information. I know it definitely needs to be tuned and cleaned, I will check out the other services you mentioned as well. I have no idea when it was last tuned- years I would guess. The piano was on the second floor of my grandparent's house, up a very narrow staircase with a harsh bend. It had to be dismantled to be moved. We had professional piano movers do it and it was pretty scary to see it in pieces. No doubt it needs to be tuned, at the least, after that experience. It also went from 6500 elevation to 4500, so I'm guessing that impacts it as well.

I hear you on the key cover- that thing is heavy and would probably break my son's finger if it fell. I'm wondering if there's some sort of lock type device sold to keep it in the upright position when up? I will need to look around.

I will look for the tension resonator. I had no idea it was there (and, if I did see it, I would have assumed it was on all pianos). Thanks again for all of the info!

 

[kenny]

Yes, when moving a grand they take the legs and pedal assembly off.

If it's very far out of tune, which is likely, it will need a few tunings before it is stable.
BTW I see windows ... direct sunlight should never strike the piano.
Heater/AC vents must not blow directly on piano.
No fireplaces or aquariums close to the piano.
Stable temp and humidity are your piano's friends.

There are fallboard locks, though personally I'd love to keep the piano available to the child 24/7.

This one is over $100.
http://www.pianoworks.com/Piano-Fallboard-Locks/Jansen-Lucite-Fallboard-Lock.asp


Personally I'd just secure something like a wine cork on the cheek block with a tiny dot of glue or double stick tape ...
You could make the cork black with a Sharpie pen.



With the cork in place, it is in the below pic, the fallboard gets stopped by the cork, protecting fingers.

 

[amc80]

Yes, when moving a grand they take the legs and pedal assembly off.

If it's very far out of tune, which is likely, it will need a few tunings before it is stable.
BTW I see windows ... direct sunlight should never strike the piano.
Heater/AC vents must not blow directly on piano.
No fireplaces or aquariums close to the piano.
Stable temp and humidity are your piano's friends.

Great idea with the cork! I will do that....I guess I have to drink a bottle of wine now

There are windows in the front room but the blinds are always closed, so no direct light. No vents, fireplace, etc. near it. We do have a fairly stable humidity level- hovers right around 15-20%....very dry.