The need for a Cat Behaviorist... (LONG!)

[sumbride]

I know a few PSers have had a cat behaviorist help with their situations, and I think I might need one, but logistically can''t bring one in because the problem cat is afraid of new people and would completely hide and waste a visit. Maybe I should videotape?

Here''s the issue...

Bill was a stray. He lived in a storm drain with a few other cats before we rescued him. He always seemed bored when he lived alone with my now DH. He played a lot but would also talk to his friends outside, the cats that wouldn''t let us touch them, so we thought maybe he wanted to live with other cats. When we moved in together, I brought my two cats into the mix, Max and Lucy. They were very bonded to each other, but Max was cool with Bill and they often played together. There was still some growling and hissing a year into it, but Max just really didn''t care. Lucy and Bill have NEVER gotten along. Lucy wouldn''t come downstairs for the first six months. We put her on prozac. She chilled out. She didn''t like Bill but she was better at ignoring him. He stalked her, but was busy playing with Max most of the time.

Max died last year and a few months later, after pure warfare between Bill and Lucy wouldn''t let up, we adopted Jack. He was about 4 months old at the time and came in with a similar "don''t care" attitude as Max. He and Lucy bonded pretty quickly and he''s ok with Bill, though Bill picks on him more than he did with Max. He stalks him some, smacks him around for what looks like no reason (to us). Just starts fights and growls and such. Jack doesn''t care. We took Lucy off prozac because she stopped letting us give it to her (in a pill pocket). I confess I didn''t try all that hard to find something else that would work because she''s basically stayed the same off of it, except her fear of Bill is coming back slowly, and I think it''s because he''s picking on her a lot more than before. He will just smack her senseless, corner her, growl and hiss... she''s afraid of him.

So I don''t really know what to do. It''s becoming rather intolerable and I''m not sure the best way to handle it. Bill just likes to "start things", and he frequently does it when he''s been disciplined for doing something he wasn''t supposed to (like getting on the table) or when he''s been brought back inside after a few moments on the patio. It''s like he gets mad and takes it out on them. One thing I''ve definitely noticed is that even though I may spend 10 minutes petting him, if I pet one of the others, even for a minute, he will snap at them. So I feel sometimes like it''s my fault or he''s jealous, but I don''t know if those are animal behaviors.

I''m sorry this is so long... thanks for reading. Any ideas?

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Hi,

Some cats simply do not get along! I have two cats who hate each other, but the older cat is 15 and has learned to do her own thing and so has my younger 2 year old cat. It''s horrifying to me that one would put their cat on prozac, but I will try my best not to dwell on that and instead mention that it can be best for the whole cat-family dynamics to adopt out one of the cats if none of them are happy. We, for a short time, had five cats ONLY due to the fact that one cat was neglected by a friend and another, very loving cat showed up at our door, and my husband adored him.

There were too many cats and every one of them fought with each other. I tried hard to find great homes for them and even INTERVIEWED the people interested in adopting three of the kitties and that worked out great. One of the women even called and gave me updates and it turned out the cats were THRILLED about their new homes and got so much positive attention, that I felt very happy about that decision.

Cats are like humans as they have their own personalities and some simply do not click. If your cats are unhappy, you may have to look into other options than trying to get them to conform or putting them on drugs! Let them live happy lives.

 

[sumbride]

We''d originally expected to only have Bill as long as it took to find him a new home... we never found one. He''s semi-feral and though he has adopted us as his family, he won''t tolerate any other people near him, touching him, or even looking at him. We gave up on re-homing him and now he''s so very bonded to me that I couldn''t fathom trying again.

Lucy was a "special project". She came from a cat-collector, and though she was only about a year old when I adopted her, her lack of socialization still shows. She''s full of "anxieties" and "issues" and I don''t think anybody would really want her, plus she would flip out as she is also not really able to tolerate being left with other people (catsitter, friends...) and will often call out to us if she can''t find us. She sounds so upset when she does it, like "WHERE ARE YOU????" She''s not really adoptable.

I know the prozac is unusual, but it was vet suggested due to numerous issues, including the fact that she wouldn''t leave the top floor and her inappropriate elimination. It worked like a charm. Amazing, actually. I felt guilty for about a minute, but getting her to relax was good for her too. She purrs a lot more, plays a lot more, enjoys life more. She stopped taking it about 2 years after we put her on it. The vet said sometimes the behaviors change due to the medication and when they stop taking it, they''re fine and don''t need to restart. So far that has been true. Except for the fear.

 

[FireGoddess]

Well. Where to start.

I know all about how to try and introduce cats to each other so they get along (or at least don''t kill each other) but so far all the knowledge in the world has not helped when one cat is terrified. All the protocols in the world rely on the cats having basic curiosity about the other cat living in the house, but being terrified and under the bed isn''t conducive to anything except forced introductions, which I''ve read only makes it worse.

I had a cat behaviorist come over, and she told me everything I already knew and read about. She was helpful, but did not have any new insights on what to do when one cat is terrified and one is a bully. I could go on and on about cat scents and socks and treats and vertical cat trees, but I''ll tell you my girls are still separated, and it''s been a year. Would her outline for getting the 2 cats to get along work? I''m sure it would...with 2 normal cats. But when one is terrified, getting her to eat even her FAVORITE treat when she knows the bully is on the other side of the closed door AIN''T HAPPENING.

I fully understand that this part may sound wacky, but I''m considering it anyway. I''m actually seriously considering involving a cat whisperer. The reason I haven''t yet is because (a) it ain''t cheap and (b) I''d love some solid proof it will help the situation. I did hear a story about a friend of a friend having cat acting out issues and the whisperer told her the cat was POed that everyone in the house started closing the doors. She said the cat felt locked out of everything. They started leaving the doors open and the cat returned to using her litterbox. Note that this was an over-the-phone consult...the whisperer had never entered their house. So it was interesting that the cat ''told'' her what the problem was without the woman being there. Anyway, a friend referred me to this website: http://tonglenhealingarts.com/ and I''m thinking about it. If you had told me I''d even be considering this a year ago, I''d have laughed at you. But I''m not laughing now.

Could I throw my 2 girls in the same room and let them duke it out? Yes, but I feel that my scaredy cat, at the ripe old age of 12, has earned some right to peace in her life and if I can do this without so much fur flying or blood curdling cat screams, it might be worth it. Either that or sign me up for the wacko bin.

 

[Aloros]

Have you tried Feliway? It mimics the cheek pheremones in cats (what they rub over everything). It helps cats feel more calm, and I know it''s helped in situations where cats were not getting along with another animal.

I''ve found the diffuser works better than the spray. It''s expensive, but you can get it fairly cheaply off of ebay.

It''s the only thing I can think of.

 

[sumbride]

We used the Feliway diffusers for about a year, but I really couldn''t tell much difference and the refills were so expensive I gave up. Maybe if I could spray Lucy with it Bill would think she was ok. Wonder if it''s rated for that... probably not.

FG, I was thinking of you when I wrote the post. So they are still separated? How do you do it? At this point I don''t think I could start locking one out and one in, especially with the open floor plan we have, but I do think Lucy likes it when people come over because Bill hides and she feels safer. I wonder now if a phone consultation would help. OK, you try it first and report back! Save me some money if it doesn''t work!

My DH will definitely think I''m nuts now.

I''ve actually found myself screaming "Can''t you all just get along?!?!" before. It doesn''t help.

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 6/23/2008 2:58:30 PM
Author: Aloros
Have you tried Feliway? It mimics the cheek pheremones in cats (what they rub over everything). It helps cats feel more calm, and I know it's helped in situations where cats were not getting along with another animal.

I've found the diffuser works better than the spray. It's expensive, but you can get it fairly cheaply off of ebay.

It's the only thing I can think of.

In my house it's in both cats' rooms. Didn't seem to do much. I even put Bach flower essences in their water. These cats have me wrapped around their little paws.

Sumbride, I let Holly roam free during the day and Chloe stays in my bedroom (which is her safe room and her hideout). She's got her bird videos and cat tree and toys in there. Then at night Holly sleeps in her own room and Chloe gets free reign on the house. Doubt she really uses it but since she feels more comfortable roaming when it's dark, it works for our situation. Still, I'm hopeful we can merge everyone so that we don't have to timeshare the cats. This tonglenhealingarts woman says all she needs is a picture of the cats and she can do the 'whispering' over the phone. I asked how that would work with Chloe under the bed but apparently I don't even have to be in the same room as Chloe during the phone thing. Good thing because I was not about to lie on the floor and hold the phone under the bed.

 

[sumbride]

I''m really intrigued now by the phone thing. My cats aren''t big phone talkers. Wonder if they would listen?

any idea how much it costs?

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 6/23/2008 3:46:45 PM
Author: sumbride
I''m really intrigued now by the phone thing. My cats aren''t big phone talkers. Wonder if they would listen?

any idea how much it costs?

The testimonials were very interesting. Some cats would sit by the phone, uncharacteristically. I called to find out her fees (it hasn''t progressed past that at this point). She charges $125 for a 1.5 to 2 hour session with a cat. Any need for subsequent sessions with the cat would be $75. I''m still debating at this point because it would basically be $250 to talk to both cats. This is about what it cost for the cat behaviorist, BTW.

It seems the idea is image and thought communication. I don''t think the cat needs to even hear her voice. She supposedly can convey your wishes to the cat, the cat can tell her what is motivating its actions. In my fantasy world, I''d like her to tell Chloe that she is not being replaced by Holly, and that she can stand up for herself. And that she''d tell Holly that Chloe was here first and she is not a rival, because I''m not going to toss Holly out on the street and this is her forever home. And that there is no need to attack Chloe because they are not competing for resources, love, or a home.

If it works, it would totally be worth the cost! But it is a leap, so....here we are.

 

[sumbride]

Date: 6/23/2008 3:59:16 PM
Author: FireGoddess

Date: 6/23/2008 3:46:45 PM

Author: sumbride

I''m really intrigued now by the phone thing. My cats aren''t big phone talkers. Wonder if they would listen?


any idea how much it costs?

The testimonials were very interesting. Some cats would sit by the phone, uncharacteristically. I called to find out her fees (it hasn''t progressed past that at this point). She charges $125 for a 1.5 to 2 hour session with a cat. Any need for subsequent sessions with the cat would be $75. I''m still debating at this point because it would basically be $250 to talk to both cats. This is about what it cost for the cat behaviorist, BTW.


It seems the idea is image and thought communication. I don''t think the cat needs to even hear her voice. She supposedly can convey your wishes to the cat, the cat can tell her what is motivating its actions. In my fantasy world, I''d like her to tell Chloe that she is not being replaced by Holly, and that she can stand up for herself. And that she''d tell Holly that Chloe was here first and she is not a rival, because I''m not going to toss Holly out on the street and this is her forever home. And that there is no need to attack Chloe because they are not competing for resources, love, or a home.


If it works, it would totally be worth the cost! But it is a leap, so....here we are.

In the world of pet care, $250 is a drop in the bucket... but it''s still trying to explain that you spent $250 on a cat whisperer, right? REALLY curious as to whether it would help the situation. I can hear Bill telling her "I just don''t LIKE her. She''s in MY CHAIR, she''s in MY space, she''s LOOKING AT ME." Or something like that. But if it solves it, yes, it''s worth it.

Hmmm....

so, you go first!

 

[movie zombie]

it would take hours to explain everything in our cat household but basically i''ve found its helpful to give attention to the combatants kitty pets at the same time while muttering until there came a time when they would actually stand next to each other to receive pets then progressing to rubbing their heads together while i gave kitty pets with one hand.......eventually, they learned to like the praise and tolerate one another to the point that to get my attention they will now butt heads and rub against each other to get me to give them more kitty pets and loving words. but it took time.

i''ve had a very ferocious cat that would attack if another cat simply looked at her. samantha anne despite her name was a terror: talking to her like she''s a child in a loud stern voice and making her leave the room actually worked over a lot of time.

movie zombie

 

[pjean]

This is a good thread for me to start paying attention to, I guess, since I''m about to have World War IV break out on Thursday.

World War III happened when I took my FI''s cat for a year some time ago. She turned out to be very aggressive towards my 2 cats, who were totally terrified. I definitely proceeded too quickly to integrate them, but since they were ok under supervision for a bit, I left them alone together and went to work. I came home and found the new cat sleeping on my bed, but no sign of my 2. I finally found one wedged behind the headboard of my bed, and the other on top of a tall bookcase. She had lost control of her bladder and bowels earlier in the day while under the bed, and was so terrified she made no attempt to clean herself off. (That''s one scared cat!) They never really recovered from that day. I made more attempts to integrate them, but finally gave up after 3 or 4 months, and just kept them separated the way FG describes (although in a small 1 bedroom apartment, that was no joke. The new cat lived in the bathroom at night.)

After a year, we rehomed the new cat with his sister, but the sister smoked (secretly; we didn''t know) and the cat has respiratory problems. So it was pretty disastrous. My FI took her back about a year ago, when he and I were living apart.

Now I''m moving back in with him on Thursday, and there''s going to be a disaster of cataclysmic proportions. (sorry, couldn''t resist.) One of my cats will quit using her litterbox, the other one will go back to overgrooming, etc. And that''s just with the new cat on the other side of the door.

We''d rehome one set of cats, but they all have significant health problems that make them a major challenge to deal with, even for us. No one else wants to deal with them. I''m just hoping that my FI will still be willing to live with them after the 9th time my cat pees on his clothing.

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 6/23/2008 4:02:51 PM
Author: sumbride


In the world of pet care, $250 is a drop in the bucket... but it's still trying to explain that you spent $250 on a cat whisperer, right?

EXACTLY.

REALLY curious as to whether it would help the situation.

Me too. REALLY really curious. So curious that, maybe, just MAYYYYYYYYYYYBE, if I EVER get my tax rebate check, it might be worth a try. I wouldn't have had that money back otherwise, so if it doesn't work, it's less of a waste somehow. Kinda.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 6/23/2008 5:15:43 PM
Author: pjean
This is a good thread for me to start paying attention to, I guess, since I''m about to have World War IV break out on Thursday.

World War III happened when I took my FI''s cat for a year some time ago. She turned out to be very aggressive towards my 2 cats, who were totally terrified. I definitely proceeded too quickly to integrate them, but since they were ok under supervision for a bit, I left them alone together and went to work. I came home and found the new cat sleeping on my bed, but no sign of my 2. I finally found one wedged behind the headboard of my bed, and the other on top of a tall bookcase. She had lost control of her bladder and bowels earlier in the day while under the bed, and was so terrified she made no attempt to clean herself off. (That''s one scared cat!) They never really recovered from that day. I made more attempts to integrate them, but finally gave up after 3 or 4 months, and just kept them separated the way FG describes (although in a small 1 bedroom apartment, that was no joke. The new cat lived in the bathroom at night.)

After a year, we rehomed the new cat with his sister, but the sister smoked (secretly; we didn''t know) and the cat has respiratory problems. So it was pretty disastrous. My FI took her back about a year ago, when he and I were living apart.

Now I''m moving back in with him on Thursday, and there''s going to be a disaster of cataclysmic proportions. (sorry, couldn''t resist.) One of my cats will quit using her litterbox, the other one will go back to overgrooming, etc. And that''s just with the new cat on the other side of the door.

We''d rehome one set of cats, but they all have significant health problems that make them a major challenge to deal with, even for us. No one else wants to deal with them. I''m just hoping that my FI will still be willing to live with them after the 9th time my cat pees on his clothing.

motivation to not leave clothing lying around but in drawers or closets?!

but seriously, be glad its the clothing: you haven''t lived with problem cats until you''ve had one that sprays you or your SO.........at night while you''re sleeping..........

movie zombie

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 6/23/2008 5:15:43 PM
Author: pjean
I definitely proceeded too quickly to integrate them, but since they were ok under supervision for a bit, I left them alone together and went to work. I came home and found the new cat sleeping on my bed, but no sign of my 2. I finally found one wedged behind the headboard of my bed, and the other on top of a tall bookcase. She had lost control of her bladder and bowels earlier in the day while under the bed, and was so terrified she made no attempt to clean herself off. (That''s one scared cat!) They never really recovered from that day.

Now I''m moving back in with him on Thursday, and there''s going to be a disaster of cataclysmic proportions. (sorry, couldn''t resist.) One of my cats will quit using her litterbox, the other one will go back to overgrooming, etc. And that''s just with the new cat on the other side of the door.

pjean you guys are REALLY going to have to take it slowly this time...that kind of fear is very hard to get over. The first night we took Holly in and she was confined to her room, Chloe''s litterbox was in an adjacent room to it, and Chloe peed on our bed. She was so scared to be anywhere near Holly, even in a separate room, that she wouldn''t go in there even to use her litterbox. So we moved her litterbox into our bedroom. Not another bed peeing incident after that. Of course we''d like to get it out of there, but it''s really important to get the introductions right or things might always be bad between them. So do what the cats need you to do, even if it means putting her litterbox where you might not like it but she feels safe using it, and go SLOWLY. Let them smell each other''s scents in the house without any form of interaction for awhile. It might take a lot longer this time because it was rushed the first time. Usually it takes weeks to get through the process, it may take you months. But it''s worth it for the happiness of everyone involved. I could have thrown mine together a long time ago but I knew that would be bad news. Some people may not be as sensitive about it as I am, but those cats are like my babies and I am their guardian, and I take that seriously.

 

[sumbride]

After reading these stories I''m starting to feel a little better about my situation. At least everyone still has full control of their bowels and bladder, and nobody has been sprayed!

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Hummm.....

Sounds like some issues my cats are having. I have never been able to fix the problem, but I keep it under control.

My female cat, Sevannah, was adoped by me at 8 weeks. She is pretty fearful of strangers. But loves me. She has been indoors since 8 weeks of age, but still manages to get into fights with strays through my windows. She loves me and kind of wants me all to herself, part of marking her territory.

Simba is a purebread Bermise, he is so easygoing, and loves people, never starts a fight. Sevannah didn't take to Simba, and I had to seperate them for a week. I finally gave up and just let them at it, they didn't kill each other and seemed to get along.....

....but every now and then, Simba won't come into my room, won't sit in my lap, and looks so sad, I finally realized that Sevannah was playing dominating mind games with him.

So I am trying good old fashion positive and negative reinforcement with Sevannah.

If she is bad, I pick up Simba and give her a look, she usually runs away and than mellows out
I also won't let her in my bedroom if she will not let Simba in my bedroom
I will not pet her if Simba will not come up to me
If she is nice, I always stop and pet her or give her a cat treat or play with her, the thing is to reward when doing the good action.

The trick with this is to be consistant. It is slow, but these techniques have helped me with lots of behavior problems, although you may have a harder time because your cat was out on his own longer during his "childhood"

 

[sumbride]

There is some really good advice here! I''m going to try several of these ideas... the petting them both at the same time may not work if she won''t get close to him, but we can get there eventually. The negative reinforcement is something I''m not good at and I think that would help a lot. He''s a bully because it''s working for him. Need to stop it from working.

 

[pjean]

Date: 6/23/2008 5:45:50 PM
Author: movie zombie

motivation to not leave clothing lying around but in drawers or closets?!

but seriously, be glad its the clothing: you haven''t lived with problem cats until you''ve had one that sprays you or your SO.........at night while you''re sleeping..........

movie zombie

That''s what I''m hoping! But I''m totally going to quote you on the spraying thing - that''s never happened (so far...

) My peer has a pretty clear pattern.

FG, you''re totally right about the slow introduction. It caught me off guard the first time, because any time my family integrated cats they did ok after a couple of days of supervised visits. But this situation was never going to be that easy, and now it''s going to be much more difficult. On the bright side, I''ll have more space and more humans, so doing a slow progression will be more practical. I''m planning to follow this plan. I''d welcome any comments or additions, though! Failure is really not an option here.

(one of my cats is doing her best to contribute to this post by leaning on me, purring, and shedding on the keyboard. Virtual kitty love is therefore passed to you all.)