spousal behaviour modification

[zdrastvootya]

ok, here''s a hot topic. I figure all of us have behaviours that we bring into a relationship that our spouses aren''t keen on. In the interest of marital harmony, we learn to modify them.

Stereotypically, for guys its picking up socks, clothes, cleaning up after eating, etc. Stereotypical for women, I don''t even want to speculate on.

But what about more ingrained behaviours? Not to a major extent, but I find Mrs. Z has a tendency towards the denial/excuse/rationalization mode (seems like it''s almost automatic). We''ve been married almost 2 years now. Is this something you can change in a partner? I think you can, but that it needs to be done in a supportive way and not in a monster, confrontational, back-a-person-in-a-corner way.

I''m seeing threads about crazy MIL''s, and the denial/excuse/rationalization seems to be a major feature. Not that Mrs. Z. shows a level described in those threads, but I''m getting a little spooked. In the end, I think my advice to myself is that we need to have a conversation.

Z.

 

[chrono]

Date: 7/11/2007 1:04:13 PM
Author:zdrastvootya
ok, here's a hot topic. I figure all of us have behaviours that we bring into a relationship that our spouses aren't keen on. In the interest of marital harmony, we learn to modify them.

Stereotypically, for guys its picking up socks, clothes, cleaning up after eating, etc. Stereotypical for women, I don't even want to speculate on.

But what about more ingrained behaviours? Not to a major extent, but I find Mrs. Z has a tendency towards the denial/excuse/rationalization mode (seems like it's almost automatic). We've been married almost 2 years now. Is this something you can change in a partner? I think you can, but that it needs to be done in a supportive way and not in a monster, confrontational, back-a-person-in-a-corner way.

I'm seeing threads about crazy MIL's, and the denial/excuse/rationalization seems to be a major feature. Not that Mrs. Z. shows a level described in those threads, but I'm getting a little spooked. In the end, I think my advice to myself is that we need to have a conversation.

Z.

Umm, leaving the toilet seat down?

I guess the denial/excuse thing is that some women really do not like direct confrontations. They are more of mediatators and the soothe-over types so they make excuses for everyone.

 

[poptart]

I agree that a lot of women I know (including myself sometimes) tend to do this as well. I agree with Chrono about wanting to avoid confrontation as well. DH, however, will call me out on it if I do things like this so I don''t get away with it. He has shown me (slowly and over the years), that it''s better to just get it off your chest if it''s really bothering you and you can''t stop thinking about it. I guess the only thing you could do is start warming your wife up to the idea that sometimes she can be wrong (eep!) or not in control (double eep!), and that''s ok. And a little confrontation immediately will ultimately soothe long term resentment, which I feel can be worse.

*M*

 

[zdrastvootya]

Date: 7/11/2007 1:08:15 PM
Author: Chrono

Date: 7/11/2007 1:04:13 PM
Author:zdrastvootya
ok, here''s a hot topic. I figure all of us have behaviours that we bring into a relationship that our spouses aren''t keen on. In the interest of marital harmony, we learn to modify them.

Stereotypically, for guys its picking up socks, clothes, cleaning up after eating, etc. Stereotypical for women, I don''t even want to speculate on.

But what about more ingrained behaviours? Not to a major extent, but I find Mrs. Z has a tendency towards the denial/excuse/rationalization mode (seems like it''s almost automatic). We''ve been married almost 2 years now. Is this something you can change in a partner? I think you can, but that it needs to be done in a supportive way and not in a monster, confrontational, back-a-person-in-a-corner way.

I''m seeing threads about crazy MIL''s, and the denial/excuse/rationalization seems to be a major feature. Not that Mrs. Z. shows a level described in those threads, but I''m getting a little spooked. In the end, I think my advice to myself is that we need to have a conversation.

Z.

Umm, leaving the toilet seat down?

I guess the denial/excuse thing is that some women really do not like direct confrontations. They are more of mediatators and the soothe-over types so they make excuses for everyone.

Hmmm, that boy-behaviour, girl-behaviour thing. I have no sisters, and didn''t date much. This girl-behaviour is perplexing. The making excuses for yourself, I at least understand. Making excuses for others (especially others you''re not close to) is baffling to me. But in terms of diffusing confrontations, it makes more sense. Thanks for the insight (the non-toilet seat one).

Z. (always thinking like a guy.)

 

[surfgirl]

In a word? Counseling. With a counselor that specializes in behavior modification.

 

[TravelingGal]

Hm...what''s perplexing to me about this thread is that TGuy is the one with denial/excuses/rationalization issues and I am the one in the house that keeps getting scolded for not putting the toilet lid (not seat), down.

Go figure.

 

[crown1]

hi! the denial/excuse/rationalization thing i find common in both male and female. i am seeing more and more instances where folks just don''t want to take responsibility for their actions. i find it troubling and feel it is more societal as opposed to gender specific. do you think my assessment is correct?

 

[poptart]

Date: 7/11/2007 1:52:41 PM
Author: crown1
hi! the denial/excuse/rationalization thing i find common in both male and female. i am seeing more and more instances where folks just don''t want to take responsibility for their actions. i find it troubling and feel it is more societal as opposed to gender specific. do you think my assessment is correct?

I do agree about this being more accepted in today''s society (at least in America). We all see people in the news and in our lives not having to take responsibility for their behavior. I''m not sure how this has come about though.

*M*

 

[Mara]

interesting Q for sure drZ...

greg is totally baffled by women and their interactions with mostly other women. he is always like 'women are just so dramatic about stuff'.

i am very non-confrontational esp with those i care about, i'd rather just be an ostritch and stick my head in the sand and pretend nothing is happening than confront someone who is a presence in my life other than just a random stranger. i don't have a problem speaking my mind, but when it comes to confrontation or saying 'you hurt my feelings' or 'you offended me' or even apologizing for a perceived slight elsewhere etc, it's very hard for me to want to deal with it. i just tend to want to wait and let things 'blow over'. i am a firm believer that time dulls most wounds...and coming from a family with a lot of strong, outspoken women, i am used to just letting things slide and not get offended or anything about things that are said, because for the most part i know that people in my life who are special to me would never try to hurt me, so chances are things are never as they are perceived kind of thing. i am not one who also tends to think things 'happen' to me...without any fault of my own and i find a lot of people do feel that way which i think easily leads to excuses/denials etc...aka 'can you believe she said that TO ME' kind of thing..rather than thinking about your own part in it as well. i am often able to say hey yes i was wrong...but so were you. i think it takes two to tango for sure...hehe.

what baffles me is 'behind the scenes' kind of stuff where people talk about others or similar but won't be up front and honest to someone's face. i'd much rather have an uncomfortable yet honest discussion or situation and deal with it up front than wonder if so and so is mad at me or feels one way or the other about something i said. so it's kind of funny because while i don't like confrontation, i also don't like behind the scenes drama.

i think women do have way more drama than men in general, mostly due to perceived slights or upsets about things said or not said...whereas men tend to just be like 'whatever' and within a few minutes they most of the time forget anything ever happened. i have more of that male mentality, i don't really hold a grudge, i don't get offended, it's hard for me to imagine others get as easily offended or upset as they tend to, and therefore sometimes hard to relate on a female level or do the whole effusive huggy apology or bonding thing. greg says he thinks i have more testosterone than the average female hehee.

in terms of your wife, maybe the next time she is rationalizing/excusing etc...you can stop and ask her if she is aware she is doing that and why? greg calls me on things sometimes in the middle of it and i think hey i didn't even realize i was doing it. if you think she'd be open to that, it is!

 

[Erin]

Ok, other side of the coin, and I don''t mean to make any assumptions about you, Z - just telling my story...

My hex-bf has a finance job but he really, really, I mean really, should have went to school and pursued a career in criminal justice or something where he solved crimes or did psychological profiling, detective work of some kind. Because that man could find a piece of blue yarn on the floor and accuse me of being the one who dented his fender. Think Six degrees of Kevin Bacon only it''s Six thought process to incrimination on ANYTHING!

I would sometimes find solace in thinking that someday in afterlife he could be shown a video of how ''it'' really happened because I don''t know the truth of what happened but I do know I didn''t have anything to do with it. He could rationalize with facts that anything was possible. Or agrue, isn''t this the most likely explanation? And you know what? Sometimes, that was the most likely explanation - still didn''t mean it happened that way. It became really exhausting to be falsely blamed for things when half the time the only evidence was speculation. He also drank too much sometimes and would forget when he did things himself...

So, again, I''m not saying that you are like this Z, but possibly in a past relationship or a parent? What I do know is I never had that immediate visceral response of denial or excuses until him. Now it''s an instict I have to bite my tongue on and think about whether or not it really involves me before I answer because it''s so ingrained in me to respond under my breath, Now what did I supposedly do, Sherlock?

And on a sidebar - I respond much better to humor than a serious sit down (when it involves me doing something I shouldn''t)

 

[phoenixgirl]

Hmmm, I know I''ve been involved in some MIL discussions but don''t remember what they were called, so I''m not remembering what behavior on the MILs'' parts you might be referring to.

Of course counseling would be great for communication and for behavior modification, but your wife may not be interested in that. Explaining that you want to go to counseling so she''ll stop her denial/rationalization probably won''t go over well.

One of the books I bought for trying to figure out my MIL was Stop Walking on Eggshells. I''m not sure if that sounds like what you''re dealing with but you can read the description and see.

I''m a strange creature because I''m a female with a stoic personality (INTJ). I tend to place little value on feelings, mine or anyone else''s, figuring that what you choose to do or say is what counts, not how you are feeling. But I still catch myself lashing out sometimes when I think I''ve been caught or accused of doing something wrong. I have to stop myself, push through the feelings and get to the logical part . . . what really happened? Am I at fault? If so, what''s the big deal? Why am I acting this way? But somebody with a less stoic personality might just get stuck in the "Why are you making me feel bad by insinuating that this is my fault?" part and not move on. I get that. If that were the case with me, I think I''d want my husband to say kindly, "I know you didn''t mean to [not] do [whatever]. But now we need to fix it, and it would be great if we could avoid situations like this in the future." You can''t really argue with that.

 

[decodelighted]

I don't know what you can do to get HER to do anything differently. But I do have a suggestion for YOU. It's actually one of the most impactful lessons I ever learned myself (though I still have to remind myself to do it).

Allow others to "save face".

Even strong, secure people just don't like feeling stupid. Or "caught". Or "on the spot". If you phrase things so that the other person is able to save face WHILE taking responsibility ... there's a MUCH higher chance they'll fess up.

I'll try to think of a good example that's not too personal

....


ETA: Hey! Phoenixgirl just GAVE an example in her post above! Perfect "face saving" exchange!

EETA: Personal story --- I'm afraid I like to be right ... a lot! DH is amazed by how OFTEN I actually am right and we've developed a way to help us both cope with this. (Hee) We decided that sometimes when I'm right but he doesn't feel like admitting it -- he'll say "Whatever!" and what that MEANS is "Yes - I know you're right but I'm feeling stubborn". Sometimes he has to remind me that this is his way of "agreeing" (HA HA HA) but most of the times I just smile & it breaks the tension and we both know what has occurred without him like screaming "uncle" or anything.

"What-the-blank-ever!" means something ENTIRELY different however.

 

[zdrastvootya]

Date: 7/11/2007 3:21:54 PM
Author: phoenixgirl
Hmmm, I know I''ve been involved in some MIL discussions but don''t remember what they were called, so I''m not remembering what behavior on the MILs'' parts you might be referring to.

Of course counseling would be great for communication and for behavior modification, but your wife may not be interested in that. Explaining that you want to go to counseling so she''ll stop her denial/rationalization probably won''t go over well.

One of the books I bought for trying to figure out my MIL was Stop Walking on Eggshells. I''m not sure if that sounds like what you''re dealing with but you can read the description and see.

I''m a strange creature because I''m a female with a stoic personality (INTJ). I tend to place little value on feelings, mine or anyone else''s, figuring that what you choose to do or say is what counts, not how you are feeling. But I still catch myself lashing out sometimes when I think I''ve been caught or accused of doing something wrong. I have to stop myself, push through the feelings and get to the logical part . . . what really happened? Am I at fault? If so, what''s the big deal? Why am I acting this way? But somebody with a less stoic personality might just get stuck in the ''Why are you making me feel bad by insinuating that this is my fault?'' part and not move on. I get that. If that were the case with me, I think I''d want my husband to say kindly, ''I know you didn''t mean to [not] do [whatever]. But now we need to fix it, and it would be great if we could avoid situations like this in the future.'' You can''t really argue with that.

Well, to play amateur psychologist, I think a response of automatic denial/making excuses/rationalization has to do with a fundamental "this is making me feel bad, and how do I get rid of this feeling quickly". I haven''t experienced any kind of agressive "lash out at your accuser" from anyone lately, but I could see that as another instinctive reaction, as well.

I would say that at the level I''m speaking of, counselling isn''t necessary, but of course many a crazy person has said the same I''m sure. Although I tend to categorize her thinking as fairly rigid, Mrs. Z often surprises me with how quickly she picks up on new ideas. A very admirable trait.

Z.

 

[zdrastvootya]

Date: 7/11/2007 3:37:21 PM
Author: decodelighted
I don''t know what you can do to get HER to do anything differently. But I do have a suggestion for YOU. It''s actually one of the most impactful lessons I ever learned myself (though I still have to remind myself to do it).

Allow others to ''save face''.

Even strong, secure people just don''t like feeling stupid. Or ''caught''. Or ''on the spot''. If you phrase things so that the other person is able to save face WHILE taking responsibility ... there''s a MUCH higher chance they''ll fess up.

I''ll try to think of a good example that''s not too personal

....


ETA: Hey! Phoenixgirl just GAVE an example in her post above! Perfect ''face saving'' exchange!

EETA: Personal story --- I''m afraid I like to be right ... a lot! DH is amazed by how OFTEN I actually am right and we''ve developed a way to help us both cope with this. (Hee) We decided that sometimes when I''m right but he doesn''t feel like admitting it -- he''ll say ''Whatever!'' and what that MEANS is ''Yes - I know you''re right but I''m feeling stubborn''. Sometimes he has to remind me that this is his way of ''agreeing'' (HA HA HA) but most of the times I just smile & it breaks the tension and we both know what has occurred without him like screaming ''uncle'' or anything.

''What-the-blank-ever!'' means something ENTIRELY different however.

Agree 100%. I find you don''t get good results backing people into a corner. Z.

 

[Mara]

LOL Deco, Greg and I have worked out the same thing with ''whatever''....I am very often ''right'' as well and he does the SAME THING...he says I should have been a trial lawyer the way I can end up proving my point kind of thing, and then he goes...*silence*..Whatever! and we end up laughing. Because that''s no type of REAL rebuttal, but basically he''s saying ''yeah you got me''.

 

[monarch64]

Sometimes it''s all in the approach, imo. I.e., if you don''t want your spouse to be defensive or make excuses, don''t play offense so to speak. If you have an issue that''s bothering you the "sandwich" approach works pretty well (ok, it does with ME anyway). By this I mean you approach by saying something complimentary, then state the issue, and wind up with another positive comment. Ex:

DH: "Honey, I really love that you take the time to clean the kitchen after I cook dinner for us."
Me: "Thanks, I don''t mind at all since you do the cooking."
DH: "I just have one favor to ask of you, could you maybe also remember to clean up the water around the sink when you''re finished? Sometimes it drips onto the floor in front of the sink and I don''t want either of us to slip and file on the wet tile. Thanks again for doing such a great job of cleaning up!"
Me: "ok, I will try to remember to do that, I don''t want to fall either."

This isn''t actually an issue in our house but it was all I could think of, hee hee. When we first got married, DH did not have such a soft approach, and I found myself getting a little defensive when he would seemingly "criticize" my ways of doing things because he''d just come to me with (ex): "Can you ever remember to wipe up the water around the sink when you''re done with the dishes?" or whatever, in kind of an accusatory tone. Of course that either set me off "ok, why don''t you do the dishes then smartypants!" or I would just be silent and not say anything but be stewing about it for a few minutes before I could let it go.

I find the sandwich method works both ways, with either spouse. My grandmother always told me you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar!