SiCKO - the movie

[FireGoddess]

Has anyone heard the buzz about it yet? It opens June 29th in the US. I definitely plan on seeing it. I saw Oprah interview MM the other day about the movie...it was outstanding.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/

 

[Love in Bloom]

I heard about it on the news this morning. I''ll probably see it, but I won''t talk about MM''s movies for a long while after I''ve seen them b/c I''m usually too angry after I watch them. It sounds like it will be heartbreaking too.

 

[FireGoddess]

Are you angry for political reasons? Because this movie isn't *supposed* to be political, not nearly to the same extent as Fahrenheit...

Actually, MM said that at the Cannes Film Festival, several self proclaimed Republicans approached him to tell him how much they appreciated the movie, that the issue really isn't about party lines or politics, but more about what is good for the people in this nation. MM said he was so touched by their comments, and said that 'that's the America I want to live in - where we work for the benefit of everyone irrespective of our particular beliefs and politics.' I thought that was interesting.

 

[Love in Bloom]

Date: 6/12/2007 6:18:12 PM
Author: FireGoddess
Are you angry for political reasons? Because this movie isn''t *supposed* to be political, not nearly to the same extent as Fahrenheit...

Actually, MM said that at the Cannes Film Festival, several self proclaimed Republicans approached him to tell him how much they appreciated the movie, that the issue really isn''t about party lines or politics, but more about what is good for the people in this nation. MM said he was so touched by their comments, and said that ''that''s the America I want to live in - where we work for the benefit of everyone irrespective of our particular beliefs and politics.'' I thought that was interesting.

Makes me angry when I see people suffering in this day and age. I do all I can to volunteer and help, but it also makes me frustrated I cannot do more...and the people who can do more usually don''t. I am not a particularly politically charged person, but the "prescription for outrage" description says it all. That is MM''s goal, to outrage, ''irrespective of our particular beliefs and poitics''. I didn''t see the interview but I really like that quote. Of course, now I want to see if he walks the walk too...

 

[Pandora II]

I've read a lot in the UK about how he raves about our terrible health service. Apparently it portrays the NHS as a wonderful service, super efficient etc etc

Since it took me over a year to get an MRI scan, and I'm looking at an 18 month waiting list for an appointment with a migraine specialist; combine that with the worst levels of MRSA in Europe and I'm not so sure.

Yes our doctors are great once you get there, but you might be dead before you get to see them!

Haven't seen it yet - but if it is as I have heard, do not be fooled. The NHS is a 3rd world system.

I'm not sure I'd want the US system, but the Italian co-payment system was great. I never waited more than a week for a consultant appointment, drugs cost 20% of the actual price (except psychopharmaceuticals which were free), GP's were free as was all emergency treatment.

It was totally free for the poor, children and the elderly. We all paid a piggyback health tax, then an MRI or xray was about $40, a specialist appointment $40 and bloodtests were $15. Hospital ward (for 2 people - not 12 mixed sex like here) I spent a month in was cleaned 3 times a day - you could have eaten your lunch off their floors they sparkled so much!

You may have guessed I'm not a fan - all mine and FI's family work in healthcare so I get to see a lot of what goes on on the inside as well as being a consumer.

 

[strmrdr]

I know first hand how bad the system is, get sick and you can get can get care usualy one way or another but it destroys your life in the process.
Everything these days is illegaly tied to credit scores, from getting a cell phone to car insurance costs.
Iv never had a accident that my car insurance paid out on in my life, 1 ticket 20 years ago yet my rates have doubled and some wont cover me when I looked into switching.
Have to get prepaid cell phones.
Finding a new apartment is harder.
Locked out of some jobs.
phone company wants a deposit if I move, have never been late on a bill with them.
etc....

But...
The goverment ran system are worse, know that from experence too with family members.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/12/2007 6:48:06 PM
Author: Pandora II
I''ve read a lot in the UK about how he raves about our terrible health service. Apparently it portrays the NHS as a wonderful service, super efficient etc etc

Since it took me over a year to get an MRI scan, and I''m looking at an 18 month waiting list for an appointment with a migraine specialist; combine that with the worst levels of MRSA in Europe and I''m not so sure.

Yes our doctors are great once you get there, but you might be dead before you get to see them!

Haven''t seen it yet - but if it is as I have heard, do not be fooled. The NHS is a 3rd world system.

My area in the US.
48 hour wait on a non-emergency MRI here.
2.5 months for non-emergency surgery.
same day for ct scans 24-48 hours at most
There are some things with waiting lists do to a shortage of techs. Sleep tests 2-3 weeks.
Its there if you can afford it but a lot of people cant.....

 

[Pandora II]

Cheapest private MRI here was going to be $2300. Madness... and that was still a 10 day wait.

 

[Pandora II]

There was a seriously frightening programme on the other night about maternity services in London. They had one hospital with 33 women in labour, 2 midwives and one doctor. There were women in final stages of labour sitting in the corridor because there weren''t enough beds.

My sister had a terrible time with both her kids. The second one she was left alone for hours despite being terrified because she had a 36 hour labour with the first due to hydramnios (too much fluid so the babies head wouldn''t engage) and the baby having a cleft palate.

FI and I are seriously thinking of private care for any kids we have.

This is depite my uncle being a one of the leading gynos here and my dad being an MD and both of them pulling what strings they could.

 

[rainbowtrout]

So... gah. I apologize in advance for the length/rantyness.


My FI works in health care policy and statistics. That''s what he does, all day long, is stare at data and then write papers for policy recommendations. What really irritated him in this film was the referance to Cuba. Oh, Cuba--so great, huh? Right. He''s ignoring the fact that Cuba''s health system for foreigners is a propoganda piece, and that most of the reason their life expectancy is as high as ours is because they do a great job at infant care and have lower risk factors for adults. Every infant that dies is a fat 0 in the average--whereas every adult that dies averages in a much higher number.


Yeah, our health care system does have problems. But when people start talking about how third world countries get it right--gah. Have they ever BEEN to a public clinic in these places? Not a nice public clinic for tourists, but one that normal people go to?

RE: his "persciption" for health care--
For one, it''s easy to say, regulate profits on drug companies. OK. Where''s the incentive to come up with new drugs going to come from? The kindness of people''s hearts? Sorry, I doubt it. Big pharma needs restrictions, but there are a lot of more relevant things to attack. Say, irresponsible advertising for one. Or the fact that university labs do most of the seminal research and then the government sells it to the drug companies. Or pushing new drugs on doctors with multiple fancy gifts that don''t effect them at alllll, nope.

Also, has anyone noticed that the countries with full health care like UK and France have extremely high taxes for the populace? Totally socializing healthcare would be expensive, and it would STILL be corrupt. Just because you give over admin to the government doesn''t mean it''s any better regulated.

Another slogan one of FI''s previous health care mentors was big on was "last year''s technology at last year''s prices." Unfort, many American health consumers won''t accept that, and the price of top end tech goes up every year, drug prices get higher, etc.

I think a lot of this hangs on whether or not you view health care as a personal "right," like, say, freedom of speech. Do you have some sort of intrinsic "right" to a heart transplant? Do you have a right to every new drug that comes out, free of cost or at minimal cost? Cause somebody is paying for it! It''s not cheap to produce a new drug or a new technology.

I''m not sure myself, I don''t think you have a "right" to it, but I think the society could decide to support all of its members having health care. But it''s a lot trickier than MM''s glib "perscription" for American health care.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 6/12/2007 6:56:41 PM
Author: Pandora II
Cheapest private MRI here was going to be $2300. Madness... and that was still a 10 day wait.

Gah, that's like a month's salary. Consider, though, that an MRI costs about a million to three million dollars to buy (I'm guessing as to the exacts here). The power requirements are enormous, and you have to staff it with people with more years of schooling than anyone needs (and seriously--without the Rads salary compensation, who is going to go to school for that many years just to sit in a dark room and stare at pictures of people's insides), and follow worker's safety protocol, cover *their* health insurance, worker's comp, salary, etc. My point is that the price may not be that inflated for the UK's currency, wage rates, etc.

In America I think the average MRI is around 700-800 dollars. If you consider that the pound is nearly 2x/strong as the dollar, the price may be about the same in terms of relative impact on our pockets? Slightly more for you?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/13/2007 6:42:31 AM
Author: rainbowtrout

Date: 6/12/2007 6:56:41 PM
Author: Pandora II
Cheapest private MRI here was going to be $2300. Madness... and that was still a 10 day wait.

Gah, that's like a month's salary. Consider, though, that an MRI costs about a million to three million dollars to buy (I'm guessing as to the exacts here). The power requirements are enormous, and you have to staff it with people with more years of schooling than anyone needs (and seriously--without the Rads salary compensation, who is going to go to school for that many years just to sit in a dark room and stare at pictures of people's insides), and follow worker's safety protocol, cover *their* health insurance, worker's comp, salary, etc. My point is that the price may not be that inflated for the UK's currency, wage rates, etc.

In America I think the average MRI is around 700-800 dollars. If you consider that the pound is nearly 2x/strong as the dollar, the price may be about the same in terms of relative impact on our pockets? Slightly more for you?

mri costs in my area:
$1200 to $1800 per 30min session which is enough for most things.
$350-$500 for a radiologist to write a report saying what the tech could have told you and your paying your doctor to tell you anyway.

ct scans are right around $1000 these days up from $350 5 years ago.
same radiologist fees added on.
excuse: they spent money upgrading the imaging module to fit into a total digital work-flow, lack of techs makes for high wages.

radiologist fees is what pisses me off to no end.
I'm already paying a specialist to look over them but the racket has to get their cut.
Last xray I had done I specifically told them in writing on the consent form not to have a radiologist look at them but they did anyway so I contested the bill.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Point of interest: Rads is THE most competitive medical specialty (i.e. to gain a residency spot in a program)--mostly because it's very little work for one of the highest salaries outside of surgery. I'm not certain, but the reason the radiologist looks at the films is because that's what he is trained to do better than your primary care doc, which is why the specialty exists?


I wonder if they have to have the rad. look at it for insurance purposes? (My MRI four ys ago was 800 dollars, few internet searches turned up same, but that's in my area.)

 

[Pandora II]

Wow, we don''t have enough radiologists or radiographers. No one wants to be a radiologist because the pay is so awful and no one wants to be a radiographer as you get so overworked!

I liked the Italian system where the MRI ran 24/7 and your GP or consultant could book you a slot outside the hospitals in-patient slots.

You are so right on the question of whether people have a "right" to all healthcare. When the NHS was set up there weren''t all the drugs and procedures that there are now. I''m not sure the taxpayer should be funding breast implants, or nosejobs or every new wonderdrug.

It leads on of course to questions like should we be trying to keep very prem babies alive with all the possible long term consequences.

There was a case recently where a couple insisted their very braindamaged baby be resucitated and no expense spared to keep her alive. She was in hospital for 2 years. She is blind, has no concept of her environment, no chance of ever walking or talking or of breathing or feeding unaided. The parents have just split-up and the child is now in care. It has cost this country many hundreds of thousands that could have been better spent on care for hundreds of children that will have better quality of life as a result. The child is now condemned to a non-life and we have to pay to keep her breathing - is that kind to anyone?



I''d be quite interested to know what US taxation is like, rainbow trout....

Here in the UK:
10% - £0 - £2,230 (GBP)
22% - £2,231 - £34,600
40% - over £34,601
Then you pay National Insurance that pays partly for Health Care. It''s about £3.3k a year.
Sales Tax, know as VAT is 17.5%

Average salary is about £38k GBP in London (£22k in rest of UK) - so you''d "keep" about £27k after tax and NI
Average house price in London is just over £350k GBP...

I don''t know how that compares...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/13/2007 2:30:11 PM
Author: Pandora II

I'd be quite interested to know what US taxation is like, rainbow trout....

Here in the UK:
10% - £0 - £2,230 (GBP)
22% - £2,231 - £34,600
40% - over £34,601
Then you pay National Insurance that pays partly for Health Care. It's about £3.3k a year.
Sales Tax, know as VAT is 17.5%

Average salary is about £38k GBP in London (£22k in rest of UK) - so you'd 'keep' about £27k after tax and NI
Average house price in London is just over £350k GBP...

I don't know how that compares...

The US has effectively thousands of taxes that everyone pays each year.
The estimated total depending on income is 40% to 50% according to some experts, I think its closer to 60% based on my budget.
Property and sales taxes have effectively doubled % wise in 15 years in my area hitting low income people very hard.
The US system is also very unfair to single people and couples without kids.

 

[greenmark]

Some guy gathered the movie 2hrs long here


http://www.myspace.com/Sickoth3Movie

Hosted on youtube

 

[Skippy123]

Okay, I don't know if you guys know this already, but Michael Moore was suppose to be interviewed on Larry King Live but got bumped by Paris Hilton. Blah

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070624/ts_nm/hilton_interview_dc

 

[princesss]

Date: 6/13/2007 6:32:26 AM
Author: rainbowtrout
Another slogan one of FI''s previous health care mentors was big on was ''last year''s technology at last year''s prices.'' Unfort, many American health consumers won''t accept that, and the price of top end tech goes up every year, drug prices get higher, etc.

I like that! I mean, if it worked last year, it''ll work now, right? They''d (hopefully) take it off the market if it didn''t work.

Sorry, I spend a good amount of my time in hospitals for a weird heart issue (that I may finally get to solve!

) so I like hearing sensible solutions like this. You don''t really need cutting edge stuff unless nothings working/nobody knows what''s wrong with you.

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 6/26/2007 5:41:17 PM
Author: Skippy123
Okay, I don't know if you guys know this already, but Michael Moore was suppose to be interviewed on Larry King Live but got bumped by Paris Hilton. Blah

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070624/ts_nm/hilton_interview_dc

I definitely see your blah

and raise you a

and

.

 

[snlee]

Date: 6/26/2007 6:04:57 PM
Author: FireGoddess

Date: 6/26/2007 5:41:17 PM
Author: Skippy123
Okay, I don''t know if you guys know this already, but Michael Moore was suppose to be interviewed on Larry King Live but got bumped by Paris Hilton. Blah

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070624/ts_nm/hilton_interview_dc

I definitely see your blah

and raise you a

and

.

BOO!!!!