Shooting at Orlando Nightclub

[Dancing Fire]

DF, I'm sure you won't be interested in this article since you've been drinking the Trump Kool-Aid for awhile now, but I'll share it for others.

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/12/orlando_mass_shooting_bigotry_is_bigotry_no_matter_what_religion_you_use_to_justify_it/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

When did I ever say I was supporting Trump?..

 

[arkieb1]

I just don't believe any gun will fire itself.

No DF they won't but then if you had tighter gun control laws so that decent law abiding citizens were the only people that could get specific types of guns this s@#* would stop happening. Sadly the deeply cynical side of my personality's first thoughts were, oh the fact it's being called an attack from a Islamic extremist and the fact it was 53 mostly gay men rather than 53 children in a school somewhere, just gives your society more excuses not to introduce better gun control laws.

The guy has been on your potential terror threat "watch list" and the simple truth is people like that and people that have criminal records should NEVER be allowed access to any sort of guns period let alone semi automatic ones.

I am sad and outraged for the families of the victims that America doesn't have the balls to introduce better gun control laws.

 

[kenny]

I just don't believe any gun will fire itself.

Neither will an nuclear bomb.
By your logic we should allow everyone to buy those too.

Of course, only for self defense to protect the little wife and children.

 

[Matata]

The guy has been on your potential terror threat "watch list".

The statement by the FBI about their surveillance of him revealed a ginormous loophole in security our methods, one I"m hoping will be closed henceforth. At the very least his name should have pinged somewhere when he bought his guns.

 

[arkieb1]

The guy has been on your potential terror threat "watch list".

The statement by the FBI about their surveillance of him revealed a ginormous loophole in security our methods, one I"m hoping will be closed henceforth. At the very least his name should have pinged somewhere when he bought his guns.

Exactly the fact is he should NEVER have been able to buy any sort of gun let alone one that could do that amount of damage in such a short amount of time.

 

[packrat]

all the gun control in the world wouldn't prevent someone from obtaining illegally, let's not overlook that, *please*. It's easier and faster to obtain illegally than it is legally. Absolutely loopholes should be closed, locked down, cemented shut. But let's please not pretend that is the answer.

I feel like I'm on a ferris wheel.

 

[arkieb1]

all the gun control in the world wouldn't prevent someone from obtaining illegally, let's not overlook that, *please*. It's easier and faster to obtain illegally than it is legally. Absolutely loopholes should be closed, locked down, cemented shut. But let's please not pretend that is the answer.

I feel like I'm on a ferris wheel.

How you do you know for sure this particular guy could have just obtained a gun like that "easily illegally." If it was that easy for him to do it illegally he surely would have..... The point is he didn't.

Yeah gun control laws and cracking down on less illegal guns on the street it's a ferris wheel thats too hard for people that insist on putting their heads in the sand to deal with. Lets hope while we all wait patiently for enough people to get killed and laws to change so you can finally get off the wheel and make a slow change none of your family are in the wrong place at the wrong time to accidentally be on it.

 

[kenny]

all the gun control in the world wouldn't prevent someone from obtaining illegally, let's not overlook that, *please*. It's easier and faster to obtain illegally than it is legally. Absolutely loopholes should be closed, locked down, cemented shut. But let's please not pretend that is the answer.

Nobody's expecting a silver bullet.

Baby steps ... in the right direction.

 

[monarch64]

DF, I'm sure you won't be interested in this article since you've been drinking the Trump Kool-Aid for awhile now, but I'll share it for others.

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/12/orlando_mass_shooting_bigotry_is_bigotry_no_matter_what_religion_you_use_to_justify_it/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

When did I ever say I was supporting Trump?..

Ok, you're right, you have never said you support him. So who DO you support? Gary Johnson? Jill Stein?

 

[Matata]

[quote="packrat|1465774059|4043377"I feel like I'm on a ferris wheel.[/quote]
More like a hamster on a caged wheel. http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-02/quietly-congress-extends-ban-cdc-research-gun-violence

As long as the simplistic rhetoric of "guns don't kill people" and "2nd amendment rights" and "the criminals are better armed" and "we CAN'T (fill in the blank)", predominate, nothing will be done. We need to change the rhetoric from "we CAN'T" to "here's what we CAN do." Until then, we're all prisoners on the wheel.

 

[ksinger]

I just don't believe any gun will fire itself.

No DF they won't but then if you had tighter gun control laws so that decent law abiding citizens were the only people that could get specific types of guns this s@#* would stop happening. Sadly the deeply cynical side of my personality's first thoughts were, oh the fact it's being called an attack from a Islamic extremist and the fact it was 53 mostly gay men rather than 53 children in a school somewhere, just gives your society more excuses not to introduce better gun control laws.

The guy has been on your potential terror threat "watch list" and the simple truth is people like that and people that have criminal records should NEVER be allowed access to any sort of guns period let alone semi automatic ones.

I am sad and outraged for the families of the victims that America doesn't have the balls to introduce better gun control laws.

The real issue is not the strength of the laws per se - although they have been stronger at times, but lax to non-existent enforcement of existing laws. And of course, most of the impediments are rammed through by the NRA, like making it illegal for gun sellers to keep electronic records. Put in place, naturally, to make enforcement unreasonable, so that old central database to enable quick and easy tracking of who bought what? Never gonna happen. The NRA allows the law to go through uncontested and then guts the law by pulling the rug out at the regulatory level every time. That enables them to play both ends, "Well, we never opposed that law, and if you'd just enforce the laws on the books...".

It's brilliant actually. Evil but brilliant.

 

[packrat]

Bah, carousel, not ferris wheel dangit.

And as long as the ones who scream the loudest are the ones on the far ends of the spectrum, here we'll sit. I *am* the middle and I'm ignored and poo pooed and get the little flit-away of the hand like I'm a gnat.

Again. And again. aaaand again. you'd think I'd learn by now for heavens sakes. I say the same things and get the same responses. Every time. And again..here we sit. On that carousel. The PS carousel.

There's no, oh hey, you know, that makes sense but what about this..I get where you're coming from, but why not this..There's no actual dialogue. Extremes aren't going to get us anywhere---we see where extremes get us, people hating other people and people killing other people. But yet..here we sit..

I get baby steps. I'm all for baby steps. As I've said before, baby steps are held up to the world as the be all end all cure, and things that go along w/those baby steps are pushed aside, there is a big picture and if the focus is on one tiny little portion, we lose sight of what we're trying to do.

We know extremes aren't the answer--yet we are so obstinate that we can't bring ourselves to sit down and actually listen to each other. Creating more extremes..and around and around we go. Everyone gets their dander up, assured beyond reason that they have the answer and their way is the right way.

but, yanno, that's just me, *trying* to talk, *trying* to have a dialogue, trying to ask questions, find answers, talk to people about sides i don't understand, give voice to things others don't understand.

and that's fine. I'll stop. I'll let everyone else work on the extremes and i'll sit quietly in the middle eating my peanut m&m's and see where it gets us. More and more of the middle fence riders will find their way to the far ends b/c they're largely ignored and pushed aside and talked over by the ends. There's no let's figure this out and meet in the middle w/the ends.

must be my naive cynicism coming thru eh?

 

[Matata]

must be my naive cynicism coming thru eh?

I have had 3 huge glasses of wine throughout which I've see-sawed between "let's nuke the middle east into a huge pile of steaming slag to what's wrong with you Deborah, where's your humanity, how did you get so jaded and black-hearted and evil." So I'm in no position to judge the level or type of cynicism that may or may not afflict you.

But I am still cogent enough to remember that ideas are finite so discussions are bound to go round and round (oh look, I can still drunk rhyme) and I am still stupid enough to believe that each time the same topic comes up with the same responses from the same people we still have an opportunity to learn, to modify our positions, and make progress. I may feel differently after my 4th glass of wine.

 

[arkieb1]

I just don't believe any gun will fire itself.

No DF they won't but then if you had tighter gun control laws so that decent law abiding citizens were the only people that could get specific types of guns this s@#* would stop happening. Sadly the deeply cynical side of my personality's first thoughts were, oh the fact it's being called an attack from a Islamic extremist and the fact it was 53 mostly gay men rather than 53 children in a school somewhere, just gives your society more excuses not to introduce better gun control laws.

The guy has been on your potential terror threat "watch list" and the simple truth is people like that and people that have criminal records should NEVER be allowed access to any sort of guns period let alone semi automatic ones.

I am sad and outraged for the families of the victims that America doesn't have the balls to introduce better gun control laws.

The real issue is not the strength of the laws per se - although they have been stronger at times, but lax to non-existent enforcement of existing laws. And of course, most of the impediments are rammed through by the NRA, like making it illegal for gun sellers to keep electronic records. Put in place, naturally, to make enforcement unreasonable, so that old central database to enable quick and easy tracking of who bought what? Never gonna happen. The NRA allows the law to go through uncontested and then guts the law by pulling the rug out at the regulatory level every time. That enables them to play both ends, "Well, we never opposed that law, and if you'd just enforce the laws on the books...".

It's brilliant actually. Evil but brilliant.

I agree they are an economically strong political force, blocking and mocking just about everything every decent politician tries to get done. The simple fact of the matter is you need someone with the balls to stand up to them and say this is how it's going to be, the average good law abiding US citizen can have guns, we are not targeting you, and come to some sort of agreement with the NRA that this is what we are going to do, this is the plan, for the sake of everyone and you are not going to block/oppose it, the laws are really going to be enforced for the greater good.

Without baby steps the country isn't going to get any better. Yes there will have to be short term pain and a lot of $$$$s spent for long term gain. And I am sorry I aimed my comments specifically at you Packrat, I'd be happy to have a drink dinner or whatever with you any day of the week, you are one of the more genuine and decent people on here. I think it is frustrating for all of us, because we know its a situation that goes no where and more people (be it 53 in a bar or a former The Voice contestant giving a concert), are dying every day and without a lot of noise there is jack s@#* anyone is going to do about it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF, I'm sure you won't be interested in this article since you've been drinking the Trump Kool-Aid for awhile now, but I'll share it for others.

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/12/orlando_mass_shooting_bigotry_is_bigotry_no_matter_what_religion_you_use_to_justify_it/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

When did I ever say I was supporting Trump?..

Ok, you're right, you have never said you support him. So who DO you support? Gary Johnson? Jill Stein?

Rubio but he is out..

 

[Dancing Fire]

I just don't believe any gun will fire itself.

Neither will an nuclear bomb.
By your logic we should allow everyone to buy those too.

Of course, only for self defense to protect the little wife and children.

Or I can always call you to protect my family.

 

[momhappy]

Bah, carousel, not ferris wheel dangit.

And as long as the ones who scream the loudest are the ones on the far ends of the spectrum, here we'll sit. I *am* the middle and I'm ignored and poo pooed and get the little flit-away of the hand like I'm a gnat.

Again. And again. aaaand again. you'd think I'd learn by now for heavens sakes. I say the same things and get the same responses. Every time. And again..here we sit. On that carousel. The PS carousel.

There's no, oh hey, you know, that makes sense but what about this..I get where you're coming from, but why not this..There's no actual dialogue. Extremes aren't going to get us anywhere---we see where extremes get us, people hating other people and people killing other people. But yet..here we sit..

I get baby steps. I'm all for baby steps. As I've said before, baby steps are held up to the world as the be all end all cure, and things that go along w/those baby steps are pushed aside, there is a big picture and if the focus is on one tiny little portion, we lose sight of what we're trying to do.

We know extremes aren't the answer--yet we are so obstinate that we can't bring ourselves to sit down and actually listen to each other. Creating more extremes..and around and around we go. Everyone gets their dander up, assured beyond reason that they have the answer and their way is the right way.

but, yanno, that's just me, *trying* to talk, *trying* to have a dialogue, trying to ask questions, find answers, talk to people about sides i don't understand, give voice to things others don't understand.

and that's fine. I'll stop. I'll let everyone else work on the extremes and i'll sit quietly in the middle eating my peanut m&m's and see where it gets us. More and more of the middle fence riders will find their way to the far ends b/c they're largely ignored and pushed aside and talked over by the ends. There's no let's figure this out and meet in the middle w/the ends.

must be my naive cynicism coming thru eh?

I hear ya' packrat and I agree. Can I have some peanut m&m's?

 

[Gypsy]

If you are going to increase scrutiny on racial groups that perpete hate crimes: then you need to start with Christian white men. Not Muslims. That's reality.

But by all means let's use this tragedy to fuel more hate for this decade's personal demon; the Muslim.

Let's ignore the fact that it's s not Muslims that we have to fear here... it's people like this: http://www.salon.com/2016/06/10/georgia_gop_senator_quotes_biblical_scripture_calling_for_the_death_of_president_obama/

A public official publicly praying for the death of a sitting president. Oh wait! He's a white Christian man! I'm sure he's just misunderstood!

Of course if the shooter had been a Christian we wouldn't be having a very politely bigoted conversation about racial profiling. We'd be taking about mental health.

If it's a Christian -- he's clearly crazy and his religion has nothing to do with it.
But if it's a Muslim -- let's a accept the 'real need' for racial profiling of all Muslims because of a lone lunatic.

Right. No bigotry there at all. Just "reality."

 

[arkieb1]

I just don't believe any gun will fire itself.

Neither will an nuclear bomb.
By your logic we should allow everyone to buy those too.

Of course, only for self defense to protect the little wife and children.

Or I can always call you to protect my family.

Or you can actually vote for someone who has the courage to reform gun ownership laws and clean up the illegal guns on the streets and then you wouldn't need either "for self defense."

 

[ckrickett]

If you are going to increase scrutiny on racial groups that perpete hate crimes: then you need to start with Christian white men. Not Muslims. That's reality.

But by all means let's use this tragedy to fuel more hate for this decade's personal demon; the Muslim.

Let's ignore the fact that it's s not Muslims that we have to fear here... it's people like this: http://www.salon.com/2016/06/10/georgia_gop_senator_quotes_biblical_scripture_calling_for_the_death_of_president_obama/

A public official publicly praying for the death of a sitting president. Oh wait! He's a white Christian man! I'm sure he's just misunderstood!

Of course if the shooter had been a Christian we wouldn't be having a very politely bigoted conversation about racial profiling. We'd be taking about mental health.

If it's a Christian -- he's clearly crazy and his religion has nothing to do with it.
But if it's a Muslim -- let's a accept the 'real need' for racial profiling of all Muslims because of a lone lunatic.

Right. No bigotry there at all. Just "reality."

Its scumbags like that that make me ashamed of my faith. People that use anything (religion, bigotry, race, sexual preference) to justify hate and violence are abhorrent to me. ( I know a lot of Christians myself included who feel like people like that aren't really practicing the faith, they just love to use Christianity as an excuse to push their own hate filled agenda)

I posted this before on FB but I will say it here. It doesn't matter that this man might have been Muslim. This was not a Muslim incident. This happened because a violent psychopath had hate in his heart and used something as an excuse to act out his aggression/vendetta. He could have been any religion, or not had any to begin with and found a reason to do something like this. To blame it on Muslims is a shameful tactic to take the light off of the real issues behind this. Hate. Hate to go to a club where people were happy, having fun and probably shaking off the hardship they face for because of the gender of the people that they love, to have those people who felt safe, happy and probably free from pressure or stress and really enjoy being who they were, to have that taken away, to have th survivors probably never feeling safe, even in enviroments where they should feel safe and happy to truly be themselves. This is more then just the unthinkable tragedy of the loss of life. This hits a lot deeper then most of those bigots could ever possibly realize

 

[arkieb1]

If you are going to increase scrutiny on racial groups that perpete hate crimes: then you need to start with Christian white men. Not Muslims. That's reality.

But by all means let's use this tragedy to fuel more hate for this decade's personal demon; the Muslim.

Let's ignore the fact that it's s not Muslims that we have to fear here... it's people like this: http://www.salon.com/2016/06/10/georgia_gop_senator_quotes_biblical_scripture_calling_for_the_death_of_president_obama/

A public official publicly praying for the death of a sitting president. Oh wait! He's a white Christian man! I'm sure he's just misunderstood!

Of course if the shooter had been a Christian we wouldn't be having a very politely bigoted conversation about racial profiling. We'd be taking about mental health.

If it's a Christian -- he's clearly crazy and his religion has nothing to do with it.
But if it's a Muslim -- let's a accept the 'real need' for racial profiling of all Muslims because of a lone lunatic.

Right. No bigotry there at all. Just "reality."

That's because there are a number of racist white extremists with power in politically powerful groups like the NRA. And lets face it, it's easier to blame Muslims, Mexicans and anyone else they perceive as "the other" than admit your society is turning to rubbish because you won't adopt tougher gun control laws and spend money in law enforcement to get the number of illegal guns on the streets reduced. Your own citizens are so sick of what your society is turning into they are going to potentially put a racist sexist moron into office that will create an even more divisive society. That was my point above, it's going to be a bucketload easier to blame everything on Muslim extremists or indeed Muslims in general than take a long hard look at the real underlying problems and fix them.

 

[AGBF]

must be my naive cynicism coming thru eh?

I have had 3 huge glasses of wine throughout which I've see-sawed between "let's nuke the middle east into a huge pile of steaming slag to what's wrong with you Deborah, where's your humanity, how did you get so jaded and black-hearted and evil." So I'm in no position to judge the level or type of cynicism that may or may not afflict you.

But I am still cogent enough to remember that ideas are finite so discussions are bound to go round and round (oh look, I can still drunk rhyme) and I am still stupid enough to believe that each time the same topic comes up with the same responses from the same people we still have an opportunity to learn, to modify our positions, and make progress. I may feel differently after my 4th glass of wine.

Matata? Back in social work school we were taught not to talk to people who were a bit above par...that is, inebriated. But if you sober up in the morning, would you come back and tell me if I am the "Deborah" mentioned here and what was going through your beautiful head when you were sloshed and fumbling with your keyboard? I am narcissistic enough to wonder how I factored into this discussion (at least in your fantasy life).

Deb

 

[monarch64]

Deb, I thought the same as you at first, but I think maybe Matata's real name is also Deborah? That would make more sense than if she had asked YOU where your humanity is!

 

[Matata]

Matata? Back in social work school we were taught not to talk to people who were a bit above par...that is, inebriated. But if you sober up in the morning, would you come back and tell me if I am the "Deborah" mentioned here and what was going through your beautiful head when you were sloshed and fumbling with your keyboard? I am narcissistic enough to wonder how I factored into this discussion (at least in your fantasy life).

Deb

Good grief woman, I told you waaaaay back in 2004 or thereabouts that we shared the same name. Do a PS search, I'm sure you'll find it. Don't you remember each and every post I've ever addressed you in? Have I wasted my loquaciousness on you? Now I have to go drown my hurt, sorrow, and disappointment in yet another goblet of fermented fruit juice.

 

[AGBF]

Matata? Back in social work school we were taught not to talk to people who were a bit above par...that is, inebriated. But if you sober up in the morning, would you come back and tell me if I am the "Deborah" mentioned here and what was going through your beautiful head when you were sloshed and fumbling with your keyboard? I am narcissistic enough to wonder how I factored into this discussion (at least in your fantasy life).

Good grief woman, I told you waaaaay back in 2004 or thereabouts that we shared the same name. Do a PS search, I'm sure you'll find it. Don't you remember each and every post I've ever addressed you in? Have I wasted my loquaciousness on you? Now I have to go drown my hurt, sorrow, and disappointment in yet another goblet of fermented fruit juice.

Your posts are truly memorable, Matata, I will grant you that. And a faint bell about your name being, "Deborah" is now ringing. But my memory loss is, now, quite advanced. You may have to repeat this posting later tonight. So lay off the ine-way.

 

[AGBF]

Deb, I thought the same as you at first, but I think maybe Matata's real name is also Deborah?

That would make more sense than if she had asked YOU where your humanity is!

Not really. If I had misplaced mine, perhaps I might know where to look for it. Who knows?

 

[AGBF]

IMO, we need more profiling on certain ethnic groups. Unlike the left who will always blame guns for these horrible killings.

Who? Angry young men? Maybe what we need to do is put males on testosterone blockers until they can prove themselves non-violent, non-rapist, and able to function in society without harming others. Problem solved.

Monnie, you have been saying some pretty wise things about men in several threads recently. Although this was said in jest, the reality is that blocking males from entering the United States would be more efficacious in stopping terrorism that blocking Muslims would be. Because it is men who carry out all the shootings. The only problem is that if we truly wanted to root out terrorism we would have to deport all our home-grown males when they got to be a certain age, too. (Just to be certain we got all the ones who would be the shooters.) I know I would miss a lot of the little boys in my life, and a lot of them who grew up to be the fathers of other little boys in my life. I wish there were some other way to deal with terrorism.

Deb

 

[Dancing Fire]

I just don't believe any gun will fire itself.

Neither will an nuclear bomb.
By your logic we should allow everyone to buy those too.

Of course, only for self defense to protect the little wife and children.

Or I can always call you to protect my family.

Or you can actually vote for someone who has the courage to reform gun ownership laws and clean up the illegal guns on the streets and then you wouldn't need either "for self defense."

And who would that person be?

 

[arkieb1]

I just don't believe any gun will fire itself.

Neither will an nuclear bomb.
By your logic we should allow everyone to buy those too.

Of course, only for self defense to protect the little wife and children.

Or I can always call you to protect my family.

Or you can actually vote for someone who has the courage to reform gun ownership laws and clean up the illegal guns on the streets and then you wouldn't need either "for self defense."

And who would that person be?

Logic would suggest that someone like Hillary would make half an effort if enough voters make enough noise about the issue, I also think she is politically savvy enough to get more achieved than Obama ever did (since I notice you have repeatedly said you don't want another term like Obamas). Logic would also tell me that Trump and any other conservative sponsored by or politically pushing the agendas of the NRA isn't going to be that person.... Maybe in 4 years time there will clearly be that "someone" irrespective of which side of politics they come from, we can all live in hope.

 

[OCgirl]

If you are going to increase scrutiny on racial groups that perpete hate crimes: then you need to start with Christian white men. Not Muslims. That's reality.

But by all means let's use this tragedy to fuel more hate for this decade's personal demon; the Muslim.

Let's ignore the fact that it's s not Muslims that we have to fear here... it's people like this: http://www.salon.com/2016/06/10/georgia_gop_senator_quotes_biblical_scripture_calling_for_the_death_of_president_obama/

A public official publicly praying for the death of a sitting president. Oh wait! He's a white Christian man! I'm sure he's just misunderstood!

Of course if the shooter had been a Christian we wouldn't be having a very politely bigoted conversation about racial profiling. We'd be taking about mental health.

If it's a Christian -- he's clearly crazy and his religion has nothing to do with it.
But if it's a Muslim -- let's a accept the 'real need' for racial profiling of all Muslims because of a lone lunatic.

Right. No bigotry there at all. Just "reality."

I totally agree with this.

I spent most of my childhood in a different country so I personally don't get the fascination or attachment some people have with guns. But I understand it's our constitutional right... Okay. I do not see how the whole "guns don't kill people, people kill people" thing makes any sense. So okay how do we stop people from killing people (with automatic weapons)? I've known plenty of (possibly) crazy people in life. No they are not scary. But it's scary to think anyone can just get a gun.
And self defense? So people are gonna start carrying guns to schools, movie theaters, clubs...? And how do you make sure you are shooting at the shooter, not other people?
Why can't we put in place tighter gun controls? I understand that will most likely negatively impact gun sales but what else? Why is it so hard to just do SOMETHING about it.

When Sandy Hook happened and nothing was done... That was when I realized how broken and divided this nation has become.