School, College, Grad School???

[Pandora II]

Okay - this is a Brit question...


Can someone explain the US system to me - I am getting very confused over on LIW with all these people who I can''t work out what point they are at.

In the UK we have:

Primary School - up to either 11 or 13

Secondary School - up to 18, when you do A levels to get a place at University

University - 3 or 4 years; 5 years for medicine & architecture. Here you get your BA, Bsc etc Graduates from Oxford/Cambridge automatically get a Masters the year after they graduate - but most people can''t be bothered to go and pick it up and they don''t use it on their cvs.

Post-grad - a one year course after university to get your MA (unless you did a 4 year Uni course where you graduate with an MA - eg Scottish Universities)

Phd - About 2-4 years further study plus the dissertation.

Medicine, Law, Architecture etc have a couple of years training stuck on the end of the University bit.

It''s not common to do Masters in the UK unless you are seriously into academia. I only know about 3 people who have gone on to do a Masters, and 90% of my friends were at Oxbridge so would be more likely to do so than others. You don''t really need one in the job market here - getting work experience is much more important.

So, that exlains our system - how does your''s work??

 

[Sparkalicious]

Elementary School - Up to approx 12

(Some places have "Middle School" - ranging from approx 11 - 14)

High School - Up to approx 17

University:
- Undergraduate degree - 3 - 4 years
Many people stop here, however, if you wish to pursue further education ...

- Graduate or Master''s Degree, i.e., Master''s of Business administration degree or Specialization degree, i.e. - Law School, for example.
If this is not enough school for you ...

then comes ...

- PHD, i.e., doctorate

Pandora, this is a basic explanation, however, I hope it better explains the North American system.

 

[somethingshiny]

I'll explain "our" system. Usually, in the US, it's also kind of a "dialect" thing. For example, in the North, grades 6-8 are called Jr. High, but in the South, it's called Middle School. But, here goes:

Grade school is K-5
Jr. High (Middle School) is 6-8 (although some places only consider 7-8 and include 6 in grade school)
High School is 9-12

College is the general term for academic study beyond High School. Some will call it a University if the name of their school actually is "University of ---"

An Associates degree is generally a 2 year degree that can be earned. A Bachelors degree is earned in 3 or 4 years (so you already have your associates usually) A Masters can be 1-6 more years of study. A dissertation or a thesis may be required for a Masters program. A PHD "always" requires a thesis and at least an additional 1-3 years of study.

In my area, the majority of college-goers get their Masters. Some will take time off after their Bachelors and then return.


ETA-Sparkalicious- I was still typing when you posted

 

[Sparkalicious]

Date: 1/10/2008 11:59:10 PM
Author: somethingshiny
ETA-Sparkalicious- I was still typing when you posted

No worries, Somethingshiny! I actually like your explanation better.

 

[Pandora II]

What age do you all start specialising in your chosen subject?

In the UK, you start at 16 when you chose 3 or 4 subjects for A-level. For example if you want to do medicine you will take only Chemistry, Physics and Biology for the next two years from age 16-18.

Then you go straight into one subject at University in the first year and then micro-specialise in the last two or three years - majors in the US, correct?

Do you have to stay in your year groups? Or can you be a year or two old or young for your year? For example, my younger sister finished Secondary school at 16 and went to University at 17 because she was 2 years ahead - in a lot of other european countries you can't so this.

Also, can anyone go to do a Bachelors degree or do you have to attain certain grades in a public examination and be accepted to get in?

Sorry, loads of weird questions!

 

[pennquaker09]

Somethingshiny, generally we do have middle schools in the South, but I went to Jr. High. And the particular school I attended housed grades 7-9. I didn''t attend high school there, but it housed grades 10-12.


Not that it matters much, but a an MBA or JD or MD are usually referred to as professional degrees.

 

[pennquaker09]

Date: 1/11/2008 1:55:44 AM
Author: Pandora II
What age do you all start specialising in your chosen subject?


In the UK, you start at 16 when you chose 3 or 4 subjects for A-level. For example if you want to do medicine you will take only Chemistry, Physics and Biology for the next two years from age 16-18.


Then you go straight into one subject at University in the first year and then micro-specialise in the last two or three years - majors in the US, correct?


Do you have to stay in your year groups? Or can you be a year or two old or young for your year? For example, my younger sister finished Secondary school at 16 and went to University at 17 because she was 2 years ahead - in a lot of other european countries you can't so this.


Also, can anyone go to do a Bachelors degree or do you have to attain certain grades in a public examination and be accepted to get in?


Sorry, loads of weird questions!

In American high schools, students don't specialize in subjects as they do in the UK. I understand the UK system somewhat, I spent a semester abroad. I'll use myself as an example because I think it fits into the discussion. Plus, I'm going to teach, so this is up my alley.

The simple answer to your question is that a high school diploma and a college entrance exam is what we use to get into college, but I don't think that provides you with a complete picture so if you care to read, I will continue.

I went to high school (secondary school) in Alabama. All of the states have different standards, but in Alabama, we were required to have 24 credits (the proper name is Carnegie Unit) to earn a high school diploma. Also, AL has what is called the 4x4 system, meaning students are required to earn 1 credit in each of the 4 core academic subjects in each yeah of high school. In case you don't know, that would be mathematics, science, social science, and English.

Okay, so 16 of your credits are made up of core academic subjects. Additionally, students have to earn .5 credits in Health, fine arts, and computer applications (basically learning how to type), 1 credit in Physical Education, and the remaining 5.5 are what we call electives. During the the fall of 12th grade, American students apply to college. Colleges review what is called a transcript and decide if one is worthy to study there. I'll give an abbreviated view of what was on my transcript.

Math - Algebra, Geometry, Honors Algebra II, IB Pre-Calculus, AP Calculus, Multivariable Calculus
Science - PreIB Biology, PreIB Chemistry & Physics, IB Chemistry, AP Biology
Social Science - World History, 2 years of US history, IB History of the Americas, AP Government, AP Economics
English - PreIB English 9 and 10, IB English 11 and 12
Foreign Languages - German I, II, II, IV AP; Latin I, II, IB Latin
Random stuff - Theory of Knowledge, IB Psychology, Health, Art History, blah blah

I never took PE - I got exempted, YAY!

My GPA was 3.9, I had a 1580 SAT, and a 34 ACT (yes, I was a nerd of the highest order)

Since IB is something that they have around the entire world, I hope you're familiar with it, but it's called the International Baccalaureate program and it's a honors program that is design to make student think at a higher level. It's kind of about fostering a love of learning for the sake of learning. At the end of the 11th and 12th grade years, student take exams in IB subjects and receive scores on a scale of 1 to 7, with 7 being the best and if they get recommendation from their school some really smart people in Sweden decide if they get an IB diploma. The AP program is kind of the same thing, but it's an American thing. It's called the Advanced Placement program and the exams are scores on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being the best. The scores of those exams are used by colleges to either award credit or advanced standing. At my university, I was awarded enough credits to enter college as a second semester sophomore.

Umm, that SAT and ACT are the exams that we take to enter college. Some regions of the country prefer the SAT and some the ACT. I'm from the South and the SAT is more widely taken there. The SAT that I took was scored on a scale of 400 to 1600. You get 400 automatically for putting down your name. The new SAT is scored from 600 - 2400. The ACT is scored from 1 to 36. I don't know the average score of the new SAT, but the national average on the ACT is about 21.2 or so.

To get into Cambridge or Oxford one is required to have certain A levels, correct? Well in order to get into the more competitive colleges in the US, such as Harvard and the like, a combination of one's GPA, Transcript, Test scores, and extracurricular activities are used to offer admissions. That's the most abbreviated that I can get.

College in the US is kind of like high school. Everyone is required to take courses in different subjects during the first 2 years and in the last 2 they take courses in their major. A major is basically a specialization. We can major in more than one thing. I double majored in mathematics and chemistry with a minor in biology. I also took a boatload of education courses. I was able to do this because of my AP and IB credits.

When I first started college, my intention was to attend medical school, but I found that I love learning and I felt that I would be better served sharing my passion with young people.

 

[icekid]

I think penn gave you a really great overview. The system is the States is quite different from the UK. As you can see, we are not tracked into our chosen fields from age 16. Instead, they give you many years to flounder about and figure out what you would like to do with your life.

As a medical student, I would also like to point out that our "professional degrees" first require a 4 year undergraduate degree. Then comes another 4 years of medical school (3 years for law, 2 for MBA). Finally, resident physicians receive another 3 to 10 years of additional training before becoming a full-fledged doc in their respective field.

 

[mintve]

I understand your confusion. I did all my education and my undergraduate degree here in the states, but I studied for my Masters in the UK, in Birmingham. While there everyone spoke about A levels and I was confused. I did not know what they were on about. I finally got a grasp of it when I asked some kids who were studying for exams. I think the UK and Europe puts a lot of focus and pressure on kids at an earlier age to start thinking about university. My good friend is Finnish and her siblings did their primary school here in the states, but they moved back to Finland for their equivalent of high school. They are smart kids, but it was a struggle for them to adapt to the different curriculum and all the exams necessary to even graduate, much less get into university. In fact, I think they had to take entrance exams to get into a certain high school.
Another difference is the Gap Year. Its virtually unheard of for kids to take a year between high school and college to travel or volunteer, etc. I think that is much more prevalent in eh UK and Europe.

 

[laine]

To add to what others have said:

Through high school, most students take the same courses. In my school, about half the curriculum was set (math, science, english, history) and half was electives. Students who planned to go to college typically took more advanced academic electives, while students who do not plan to go to college may take more vocational or other non-academic electives.

The career track happens somewhere in college. At some schools, or for some fields, the decision is made early in college. At the school I am at now, most freshman (1st year students) have selected a major (though I don''t know how many will change it). Some more intensive programs, like engineering or architecture, take 4 years of coursework, so you must choose early or take extra time. At the college I went to for my undergrad degree, most students didn''t select their major until the end of the 2nd/beginning of the 3rd year, so we had time to explore a little more before committing to a path.

 

[EricaR]

There is also a difference between a "college" and a "university", even though both award undergrad degrees.

A University is a school that also offers graduate degrees, while a college is only undergrad.

 

[mimzy]

i''ll elaborate on advanced degrees just a little more!

most people spend 3-5 years getting their undergrad degree (3 if you have college credit from high school, 5 if you take your time)

it really depends on what you are getting a masters degree in that determines how long it will take. if you are in business and get your masters of business administration (MBA), it will probably take you one year, two if you go part time. other programs are a full two years or three years of coursework.

if you want to get yoru Ph.D, again it depends on what the degree will specialize in. Something like a ph.d. in education might take you an extra year, maybe two. a ph.d. in a more scientific field will take at least 3-4, full time (6-7 part time).

some schools have programs that allow you to forgo the masters level and study to get the ph.d right after undergrad. i have a cousin and a friend that are in ph.d. programs right after their undergrad for psychology and biology, respectively. the program is going to take between 5-6 years, i think. some degree, like pharmacology give you the coveted ".D" in the undergrad program, by extending it by a year or two.

you don''t have to get your masters degree before going to law school or medical school, but some do. med school is two years of coursework, two years of practical application in different hospitals, then they get their degree and begin a 4-5 year residency at a hospital. then they are a licensed practioner (or something). law school is an extra three years of coursework after undergrad.

 

[mercoledi]

^^^

Ditto. In scientific fields it's becoming less common to have a master's degree (2-3 years post college) AND a PhD. Thus many of us started PhD programs right after college. I'm currently wrapping mine up in year 7 but at the end I'll have a PhD in virology, but not a masters. In my program the only way to get a masters is to essentially drop out; it's sort of a booby-prize (but that is wierd and specific to some science PhDs).

It's an important difference, it can be hard for UK phD's to get jobs in the US because the training is different and some believe less rigourous ( I really don't know enough to have an opinion either way). It sounds like the UK system is similar to what you see in India and China too. I guess that makes US/Canada the odd men out!

 

[somethingshiny]

I attended a tiny high school (100 students) so we actually DID start our "specialized" study at around age 16.

As Penn said, you have to have x (in our school it was 24) credits to graduate. Because our school was so small and we had a lack of qualified teachers, you could get those credits in "blow-off" courses (think home ec, art, speech, etc). However, that would not fill the prerequisites to get into college. (crazy I know BUT Our colleges require 3 years of Math and 4 years of English to enter. Our school required 2 years of Math and 3 years of English to graduate.) I had intended on becoming a forensic pathologist (mind you this was years before CSI even thought about being a show...) So, in high school, I was able to take advanced biology, anatomy and physiology, physics, chemistry, calculus (all taught out of our local community college books.) During this time, if the school couldn''t produce a teacher to fulfill my educational requirements, by law, the high school had to send me (transport me physically) to the local college to attend a course or two. I had enough credits to graduate during my Jr year (11th grade), but since I could get "free" college courses if I still attended "high school", I was able to start my study and obtain a few credits prior to actually "attending" college. Currently, my sister who is in her last year of high school has 3 college credits towards her chosen major.

This is not the US standard, but in the small schools, it''s what is done. (there are 3 other school in my area that also offer the college courses to their high school students.)

 

[Haven]

I glossed over the responses very quickly, so I apologize if I''m repeating something that''s already been said, however I didn''t see any mention about the different types of doctoral degrees awared in the U.S.

It''s important to note that the PhD is the highest academic degree one can earn in the U.S. There are many other doctoral degrees available, most of them "professional" degrees, such as the EdD, PharmD, JD, MD, PsyD, etc. and all require varying levels of education. However the PhD is the most highly regarded, and certainly the most academically challenging degree one can earn in the U.S.

 

[Independent Gal]

I'd be pretty surprised if many people come out with a Ph.D. in 3-4 years on this side of the pond. This is possible in a subject like mathematics, but in most other fields, I would guess that 5-7 years is much more normal. Most good American Ph.D.'s require one or two years of course work. After that there are field examinations where students have to master the literature in various subfields of their discipline. This usually takes a full year (so we're at three). And it's only AFTER that that students start to write their thesis. Since it's an original piece of research of book legnth, that takes at least 2 years. If there is field work to do (e.g. in anthropology, politics, sociology, etc.) that adds an extra year or two. In the sciences, it partly depends how long your experiments take... and how long they take to work. So, you'll find very, very few people with an American Ph.D. who acquired it in 3-4 years!

(I did my Ph.D. in 4.5 years! But I was a machine and that was pretty unusual. I was by far the first person in my 16 person cohort. Most took 6-7 years. Oh, and my thesis was trash.

Got the job done though.

As my mother used to say when she was finishing up her thesis with three small kids and a full time job, the only good thesis is a finished thesis. Amen to that, mommy!)

 

[Delster]

Penn is the International Baccalaureate system something like the Bologna Process? All we hear about over here is Bologna...

Indy there''s a LOT of resistance over here to the introduction of required coursework on PhD programmes. It''s seen as babying. I dunno, in certain cases I think it might help avoid abuse. In my field most students are abandoned for four years and then expected to just magically turn in a thesis at the end. In more scientific fields it seems to me like the student is the supervisor''s slave and spends two years working on the supervisor''s material, getting no credit for it, and then at the end there''s a scramble to find something thesis-able for the student to work on for the last year. I''m not bitter, can''t you tell?

OK just for variety, the Irish system is:
- Primary school from ages 5-12
- Secondary school from ages 13-17
- University (NEVER called ''school''!!!) for undergrad degree (BA, BSc, education and law degrees) for three or four years (four year degrees rank higher on the Bologna scale)
- University for postgrad degree (one year if taught, two if research) - becoming very commonplace, most of my friends have masters degrees or postgraduate diplomas
- University for doctoral research (four years) (only if you are absolutely crazy)
- Some professions require further professional training (law, accounting) or work experience leading to accreditation (engineering)

Many people choose a trade (3 years'' training, with different levels during the training that are accreditated by the Bologna Process) and some professions (accounting for example) are direct entry, you don''t necessarily need a degree, you just leapfrog the training process if you have one. For law, you don''t need a law degree, just ''a degree'' and then you can go straight to the professional training portion. Medicine, veterinary medicine, and architecture are five year undergraduate degrees and your degree award is at a higher level on the Bologna Process scale than if you just did a three or four year degree.

 

[Delster]

Date: 1/11/2008 12:14:42 PM
Author: Haven
I glossed over the responses very quickly, so I apologize if I''m repeating something that''s already been said, however I didn''t see any mention about the different types of doctoral degrees awared in the U.S.

It''s important to note that the PhD is the highest academic degree one can earn in the U.S. There are many other doctoral degrees available, most of them ''professional'' degrees, such as the EdD, PharmD, JD, MD, PsyD, etc. and all require varying levels of education. However the PhD is the most highly regarded, and certainly the most academically challenging degree one can earn in the U.S.

Haven which of the doctoral degrees entitle you to use the title ''doctor''? Over here ONLY the PhD and higher doctorates entitle you to this (medical graduates receive the ''doctor'' title as an honourary thing only, in recognition of the huge value of their work, but their degree is a ''Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery'' - MB BCh).

Also, over here, the ''specialised'' doctorates (LL.D. or MD for example) are regarded as academically higher doctorates than the PhD. To get those, you really need to have been in academia your entire life as to get one you have to submit a corpus of work (typically three or four books) for assessment.

 

[Haven]

Date: 1/11/2008 1:11:13 PM
Author: Delster

Date: 1/11/2008 12:14:42 PM

Author: Haven

I glossed over the responses very quickly, so I apologize if I''m repeating something that''s already been said, however I didn''t see any mention about the different types of doctoral degrees awared in the U.S.


It''s important to note that the PhD is the highest academic degree one can earn in the U.S. There are many other doctoral degrees available, most of them ''professional'' degrees, such as the EdD, PharmD, JD, MD, PsyD, etc. and all require varying levels of education. However the PhD is the most highly regarded, and certainly the most academically challenging degree one can earn in the U.S.

Haven which of the doctoral degrees entitle you to use the title ''doctor''? Over here ONLY the PhD and higher doctorates entitle you to this (medical graduates receive the ''doctor'' title as an honourary thing only, in recognition of the huge value of their work, but their degree is a ''Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery'' - MB BCh).


Also, over here, the ''specialised'' doctorates (LL.D. or MD for example) are regarded as academically higher doctorates than the PhD. To get those, you really need to have been in academia your entire life as to get one you have to submit a corpus of work (typically three or four books) for assessment.

PROFESSIONALLY--EdD, MD, PsyD, and I''m sure many others with doctoral degrees use "doctor". I''ve never met a lawyer (JD) who uses doctor professionally, but dentists, psychologists, educators, and even some chiropractors use doctor as their professional title.

SOCIALLY, it is only proper to use "Doctor" as your title if you are an MD, according to Ms. Post, Miss Manners, and the rest of the etiquette experts. I''ve met several people with the PsyD degree who go by "Doctor" socially, but it is a faux pas to use it unless you are an MD. It''s such a breach of etiquette that Miss Manners devoted a rather large portion of her latest etiquette book to the subject.

So very interesting, I must say!

 

[Delster]

Oops double post, sorry!

 

[Delster]

Date: 1/11/2008 7:05:29 PM
Author: Haven

PROFESSIONALLY--EdD, MD, PsyD, and I'm sure many others with doctoral degrees use 'doctor'. I've never met a lawyer (JD) who uses doctor professionally, but dentists, psychologists, educators, and even some chiropractors use doctor as their professional title.

SOCIALLY, it is only proper to use 'Doctor' as your title if you are an MD, according to Ms. Post, Miss Manners, and the rest of the etiquette experts. I've met several people with the PsyD degree who go by 'Doctor' socially, but it is a faux pas to use it unless you are an MD. It's such a breach of etiquette that Miss Manners devoted a rather large portion of her latest etiquette book to the subject.

So very interesting, I must say!

Yes, very interesting! I've always been fascinated by this, and by the whole rigmarole around academical robes (ever since I found out my undergrad and postgrad robes are not the 'right' colours for my field, ha ha!)...

Over here, professionally, anyone with a PhD or higher doctorate (LLD, MD etc) would use 'Dr'. Also medical doctors with the MB Ch undergrad degree. Curiously, specialists (obstetricians, gynaecologists, surgeons etc) revert to 'Mr' or 'Ms' - something to do with the extra qualification negativing the honorary 'Dr' title. So, my everyday physician is 'Dr' - but the surgeon who took out my tonsils ears ago was 'Mr'! Vets, dentists, chiropractors, counsellors, psychotherapists, chiropractors etc don't use 'Dr'.

Socially I thought a man was known by his professional title and a woman by her marital status - which would make my BF 'Dr' and me 'Miss' (even though in another few months I'll have a PhD too and I already have two more degrees than him, grrrr)? Or is that another myth?

Pandora, sorry to have threadjacked!

 

[zoebartlett]

Date: 1/11/2008 10:09:56 AM
Author: EricaR
There is also a difference between a ''college'' and a ''university'', even though both award undergrad degrees.

A University is a school that also offers graduate degrees, while a college is only undergrad.

Hi Erica,

Actually the college I attended for my undergraduate degree does have a few graduate programs as well but it''s name is ______ College.

 

[zoebartlett]

Date: 1/11/2008 9:57:47 AM
Author: laine
To add to what others have said:

Through high school, most students take the same courses. In my school, about half the curriculum was set (math, science, english, history) and half was electives. Students who planned to go to college typically took more advanced academic electives, while students who do not plan to go to college may take more vocational or other non-academic electives.

The career track happens somewhere in college. At some schools, or for some fields, the decision is made early in college. At the school I am at now, most freshman (1st year students) have selected a major (though I don''t know how many will change it). Some more intensive programs, like engineering or architecture, take 4 years of coursework, so you must choose early or take extra time. At the college I went to for my undergrad degree, most students didn''t select their major until the end of the 2nd/beginning of the 3rd year, so we had time to explore a little more before committing to a path.

Great description! It''s late so I''m just sort of skimming at this point in the night, but this one caught my eye. At the college I attended for my undergraduate degree, we had to choose a major, our primary course of study, in our 2nd year of school (as a sophomore). Some people choose a major (and maybe a minor) and then switch part way through if they decide they rather concentrate on something else. For the most part though, once you choose a major, the majority of classes you take focus on which path you want to take.

I''m a teacher now but my undergraduate degree isn''t in education. I focused on something else entirely. It wasn''t until I decided to go to graduate school (in my case, a 2 year program) that I knew what I wanted to do with my life. Most people that I know go to undergraduate school (college or a university) right after high school (at age 17-18, most likely). I think it makes a lot of sense to take a year off to discover the world and see what interests a person before enrolling in college but this isn''t done as much in my area of the US. Maybe I should have done that -- I might have started on my current path of teaching A LOT sooner than I did.

 

[pennquaker09]

To go a little further into what Haven said, some professional degrees are not considered doctorates because they are not terminal. And what I mean by that is a JD is not an academic degree, it''s just the first professional degree used to enter the law profession. The terminal degree for an attorney would be the Doctor of Juridical Science. Back in the day, the first professional law degree was the LL.B., or Bachelor of Laws. If someone simply wants to practice law, a JD is really the only degree that they must have. If they plan on teaching then the J.S.D. would be their academic degree but it''s my understanding that those are really rare.


Also the same thing applies to to the Doctor of Pharmacy (PharmD) degree. It''s professional in nature and does not qualify one for a career in academia, so the terminal degree would be a Ph.D. in pharmaceutical science, biochemistry, or pharmacology. Pharmacology is actually very interesting. Pharmacists are not required to have a bachelors degree and for most the first (and usually only) degree they receive is the PharmD.

However, a Doctor of Education is not a professional degree. It''s a terminal academic degree. Here at Penn, the Ed.D. and the Ph.D. are both offered and have practically the same requirements. The Ph.D. usually requires like 2 more courses. But at Harvard, only the Ed.D. is offered. I think the rigor is determined by the area that the degree is in.


Delster, the International Baccalaureate program is secondary school based, but in the United States, completion of IB courses and the corresponding exam will warrant a student college credit. I know that in the UK, the IB is used in lieu of A levels in some cases because it is EXTREMELY hard. Well, to get an IB diploma it''s hard. Here is a good explanation of what the IB program is:
International Baccalaureate

 

[pennquaker09]

Date: 1/12/2008 12:04:15 AM
Author: ZoeBartlett

Date: 1/11/2008 10:09:56 AM

Author: EricaR

There is also a difference between a 'college' and a 'university', even though both award undergrad degrees.


A University is a school that also offers graduate degrees, while a college is only undergrad.

Hi Erica,


Actually the college I attended for my undergraduate degree does have a few graduate programs as well but it's name is ______ College.

Exactly, such as Dartmouth College. It's a research university.

I think what she was referring to are liberal arts colleges. Generally, they only offer undergraduate degrees with a few offering some masters degrees.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 1/11/2008 12:19:27 PM
Author: Independent Gal
I'd be pretty surprised if many people come out with a Ph.D. in 3-4 years on this side of the pond. This is possible in a subject like mathematics, but in most other fields, I would guess that 5-7 years is much more normal. Most good American Ph.D.'s require one or two years of course work. After that there are field examinations where students have to master the literature in various subfields of their discipline. This usually takes a full year (so we're at three). And it's only AFTER that that students start to write their thesis. Since it's an original piece of research of book legnth, that takes at least 2 years. If there is field work to do (e.g. in anthropology, politics, sociology, etc.) that adds an extra year or two. In the sciences, it partly depends how long your experiments take... and how long they take to work. So, you'll find very, very few people with an American Ph.D. who acquired it in 3-4 years!


(I did my Ph.D. in 4.5 years! But I was a machine and that was pretty unusual. I was by far the first person in my 16 person cohort. Most took 6-7 years. Oh, and my thesis was trash.

Got the job done though.

As my mother used to say when she was finishing up her thesis with three small kids and a full time job, the only good thesis is a finished thesis. Amen to that, mommy!)

Indy, my BF is on track to get his PhD in 3-4 years but he's a serious over-achiever and once he sets his mind on a project and doesn't have any video games to distract him, he works on them for anywhere from 4-12 hours a day, and has even dreamed about papers and especially his Masters thesis. He was planning on doing a Masters in Stats at the same time, but that would have added a year to his grad date and heaven forbid he add another year! He's almost already finished all of the coursework and is waiting for a couple of theory courses to come around that are only on the class schedules once every 2 to three years. He's really naughty though-the semester he defended his thesis he was taking 14 credit hours as well as teaching 1 class, two labs and tutoring. He wouldn't let me tell anyone how much he had on his plate. Because of that drive he would have gotten his Masters in 2 years, but heart surgery slowed him down a bit and it ended up taking 3.

Oh and all this is Sociology. His fast plan is to finish his PhD in 2010 putting him at 3 years in the PhD program. And at age 28. But...it's all because he was incredibly naughty and taking so many credit hours. (His last semester of his BA he took 21 hours. He's nuts!)

Really though, a Bachelors degree can take anywhere from about 3 years to 5 or even six depending on how many classes a student takes, how many they fail, and how long it takes them to figure out a permanent Major. I think most students switch majors at least 3-4 times?

My father did a combined Bachelors/JD degree back when dinosaurs were around and it took a total of 5 years for EVERYTHING. Some school do combine programs like that-which is nice for the students.

I don't think I've really added anything to the discussion, but I think the way the US's University system really leaves it up to the students to make their own education.
For instance:
I have an associates degree in Culinary Arts. That's a 2 year degree requiring around 70 credit hours. I muddled around a bit with another culinary school and ultimately decided to go back to get a Bachelors degree. At the end of my academic career I will have 2 degrees (AAS, BA) and round out to about 200 credit hours. Most PhD students end up with around 200 credits as well. This is what I get for messing around for so long.

I'll also be about 27, instead of 22 like most of the rest of the people I'll graduate with. I only need 128 credits to get a BA, but none of my cooking classes transferred as viable credits for credit at my current University.

Frankly, it disgusts me how long I've been in school.

Also, I'm sure everyone will call him Dr. when he gets done with his doctorate. His students already do!

 

[mimzy]

Date: 1/12/2008 1:24:12 AM
Author: pennquaker09

Date: 1/12/2008 12:04:15 AM

Author: ZoeBartlett

Date: 1/11/2008 10:09:56 AM


Author: EricaR


There is also a difference between a 'college' and a 'university', even though both award undergrad degrees.



A University is a school that also offers graduate degrees, while a college is only undergrad.

Hi Erica,



Actually the college I attended for my undergraduate degree does have a few graduate programs as well but it's name is ______ College.

Exactly, such as Dartmouth College. It's a research university.


I think what she was referring to are liberal arts colleges. Generally, they only offer undergraduate degrees with a few offering some masters degrees.

not that this has any bearing on the question at hand, but my understanding is that a college offers a liberal arts degree (which falls under a B.A.) with a concentration (your major) whereas a university offers different types of degrees (B.A. or B.S.) that is in your specific major. colleges also usually are a bit smaller in terms of the number of concentrations that are offered. one isn't better than the other, it all depends on the education you want. a college will most likely give you a more well rounded course of study (usually they require foreign language, etc) whereas a university will have a course of study more targeted to your specific major.

for example, i did my undergrad in speech language pathology. there were no colleges that i found that offered it as a major (that i was found) so i would have had to major in education or premed and then done a post bac program before i started my masters. i opted for a university so my undergrad degree was actually in speech language pathology. both institutions have their pros and cons.

then there are community colleges, which generally only offer associate degrees, technical certifications, and MAYBE a B.A. in one or two concentrations. these are generally for students who either go part time or attend for a few years before leaving for another college or university. they are generally open enrollment and are open to non-degree seeking students (i.e. my dad took a grilling class at our community college)

 

[pennquaker09]

Date: 1/12/2008 8:42:44 AM
Author: mimzy

Date: 1/12/2008 1:24:12 AM

Author: pennquaker09

Date: 1/12/2008 12:04:15 AM


Author: ZoeBartlett

Date: 1/11/2008 10:09:56 AM



Author: EricaR



There is also a difference between a ''college'' and a ''university'', even though both award undergrad degrees.




A University is a school that also offers graduate degrees, while a college is only undergrad.

Hi Erica,




Actually the college I attended for my undergraduate degree does have a few graduate programs as well but it''s name is ______ College.

Exactly, such as Dartmouth College. It''s a research university.



I think what she was referring to are liberal arts colleges. Generally, they only offer undergraduate degrees with a few offering some masters degrees.

not that this has any bearing on the question at hand, but my understanding is that a college offers a liberal arts degree (which falls under a B.A.) with a concentration (your major) whereas a university offers different types of degrees (B.A. or B.S.) that is in your specific major. colleges also usually are a bit smaller in terms of the number of concentrations that are offered. one isn''t better than the other, it all depends on the education you want. a college will most likely give you a more well rounded course of study (usually they require foreign language, etc) whereas a university will have a course of study more targeted to your specific major.


for example, i did my undergrad in speech language pathology. there were no colleges that i found that offered it as a major (that i was found) so i would have had to major in education or premed and then done a post bac program before i started my masters. i opted for a university so my undergrad degree was actually in speech language pathology. both institutions have their pros and cons.


then there are community colleges, which generally only offer associate degrees, technical certifications, and MAYBE a B.A. in one or two concentrations. these are generally for students who either go part time or attend for a few years before leaving for another college or university. they are generally open enrollment and are open to non-degree seeking students (i.e. my dad took a grilling class at our community college)

It''s not so much what majors the particular institution offers, it has more to do with it''s Carnegie classification.