Sapphires … why isn’t the cut king?

[zzbaron]

Why isn’t the cut of a sapphire scrutinized like it is with diamonds? When purchasing a sapphire with a fixed budget is it expected we sacrifice cut for a better color? I get the impression that color is considered the most important and consumers should be willing to take a hit on the cut to purchase a better color. Can you imagine reading advice that we need to make sure to buy diamonds that are D or E in color above the cut? Who cares if the proportions and light return are average at best … just be happy you have the whitest of white diamonds possible.

Why do you think we are told that cut is most important with diamond but color is most important with sapphires? Are there so many diamonds on the market that cut is the quickest fix to really differentiate the need to buy a product over someone else and that is driving the cut above all else argument? And if there weren’t a lot of diamonds on the market do you think color would be the controlling factor?

At this point I think that if I have the choice (price being equal) between a sapphire that has the most exact proportions with an average color or the best blue with an average cut I will pick the sapphire with the better cut. I think from the average fan all the way to an expert on gems they can instantly recognized a good cut sapphire. But can everyone agree what the best color sapphire should be? I think that is very subjective. Some people like color shifting sapphires, some like them yellow, some like them blue but I bet there is a universal love of a well cut stone.

I bring this up because I am trying to find a sapphire for an ering. My soon to be fiancé will be staring at this ring a lot as it will be stuck on her finger forever. Because of this I want something that has the best proportions possible but I am having a really hard time finding one. I go on websites and I find there are a lot of options for good color sapphires but my options for those gems to be cut perfect are lousy. I find that very weird. Maybe all of the best cut sapphires have been sold already? If that’s the case then why don’t these vendors have their sapphires recut so they can empty out their inventory? Or, do they expect us to buy them and have them recut by someone who really knows what they are doing?

Finally, I’m not trying to argue that the value of the cut should be worth more than the color of the sapphire. I am just suggesting that the cut should not be compromised and should be demanded as being the best. I also think the cut should not be sacrificed when buying a sapphire (at least for an ering).

What is everyone’s thought on this?

 

[T L]

Good to fine quality sapphires are much rarer than white diamonds, and cannot be "made to order" such as the white diamond market is set up. They are cut more for retaining weight, rather than beauty because fine material/color is rare and expensive. This is not just true for sapphires, but rubies, emeralds, and many other rare and pricey colored gems. White diamonds are cut for optimizing light performance since they do not have color to help them out.

Many of the best sapphires in the world also come from places where they are not allowed out of the country as rough material (ie Sri Lanka, Burma, Kashmir), so many of the native cutters employed to work on these gems are unskilled and poorly paid, an they must cut x amount of stones per hour. Under these conditions, one can make a beautiful stone look badly as well. Jeff White, a lapidary, recuts native cut sapphires as a result of some of these poorly cut native stones. That being said, not all native cuts are bad, but when you're cutting for weight, odds are you have less options open to you for optimizing cut.

Some of the precision cutters can get their hands on some African rough and cut them, but typically, this material is not as sought after as the material from Asia. Madagascar and Tanzania are producing some nice gems though. MakingTheGrade just purchased a very beautiful colored 1 ct Tanzanian sapphire from Gene of Precisiongem. It was cut very well.

It is frustrating to be unable to just buy a well cut colored gem, but when fine color is a great rarity in a particular gem species, the gem is just not always cut well. It's really something to find a rare colored gem that has great color, cutting and substantial size. If you do, the price is substantial as well.

 

[Arcadian]

Diamonds and colored stones are really two different horses and should be looked at very differently.

Sapphires are ALWAYS cut for color as is any colored gemstone because its color is the driving force behind the price.

That said,You CAN get a well cut sapphire, trust me on this. However, you can also get one thats, not heated and kashmire blue with a big ol belly on it and it will cost more than your house!

You sometimes have to decide whats best for you. I don''t mind a native cut stone as long as the window is small enough to close in a setting, that I get the color I want, and that the stone works out ok on my man hands....(I have a big fingers).

I personally never purchase a stone just to have it recut, that can sometimes put you in a position where you lose color of the stone after the fact. Can be a letdown in some cases. But there are some who have done so and were very successful at it.

If you really want a perfect sapphire, you have to be prepared to pay that perfect sapphire money.

If you are, want a girlfriend? LOL kidding (sort of

)

Ok but seriously, each person has to decide how perfect they want their stone, how much they personally are willing to pay for the stone.

The color you choose will almost always determine price, behind that comes the clarity, then the cut.

Here''s a pretty good guide to buying sapphires

http://palagems.com/sapphire_connoisseurship.htm#sapphire_buying_guide


So whats your requirements, and what color are you looking for? Once you nail down the color first and foremost, you can work around the other stuff.


-A

 

[T L]

Date: 1/25/2010 12:44:18 AM
Author: Arcadian

Sapphires are ALWAYS cut for color as is any colored gemstone because its color is the driving force behind the price.

Actually color and weight are the driving force behind the price.

They are cut to retain as much weight as possible as well.

 

[Michael_E]

The reason is that, until very recently, only a few people knew anything about cut in colored stones AND the people who were cutting the bulk of them were getting paid based on color and weight, (still are for the most part). Additionally, the idea of a "perfect" cut in color is even more nebulous than in diamonds, since there can be very many ways to cut a colored stone and end up with a beautiful gem. What shape are you looking for ? The reason I ask is because if you don't want a round stone, then your choices in really good cutting goes up exponentially. Little things like angles on crown and pavilion, the aspect ratio of the stone and how the color is oriented can make huge differences in how well the color is presented, how much tilt will produce a tilt window and a whole host of other variables affecting appearance. The only way to judge cut with these stones is by looking at them. There are many times when those of us who cut them are surprised by the final outcome.

One of the problems with finding what you want is that very few of us cutters ever have the opportunity to buy top quality rough sapphires in significant sizes. So if you want a really nice sapphire, I would advise buying a finished stone which is cut a bit too deeply, maybe a bit darker than you'd like, with no off colors cross axis and have it re-cut. You lose some weight, get a lighter saturation and better scintillation. If you don't like that, then I would suggest grabbing a jeweler who's been in the business a while and have them do the looking for you. Typically someone who's been in the business has enough contacts that they can get on the phone and have you something suitable within a week. This is assuming that you aren't looking for a bargain. Nothing wrong in looking for a bargain, but when you do, you should expect to spend a lot longer in your search.

 

[Porridge]

Ditto all of the above experts! Good quality sapphires are a lot rarer than diamonds are.

zzbaron how are you judging the cut? What are you using to find that "cut perfect" you mentioned?
Just one little thing to remember, (it's kind of obvious so I hope you don't mind me pointing it out, but just in case...), sapphire and diamond are different materials. So the cut parameters that we learn about here cannot be used to judge sapphires.

Comparing the sacrifice of cut for colour in diamonds and sapphires is comparing apples and oranges. Diamonds are colourless stones - cut poorly, they are weird lumps of glass. They are so desired because of high refractive index, dispersion etc and ONLY cut can maximise that performance. When we talk about "colour" in diamonds, we mean slights tints of yellow possibly detracting from the "colourlessness" of the stone. Colour in coloured stones is a whole different ball game - their primary appeal is the colour. You get a not-perfectly-cut stone, you can still have a beautiful coloured gem which is the main aim. Worth far more than an ok colour with a wonderful cut. Cut is important in coloured gems, of course it is. But it's not as important as it is in diamonds, because coloured gems don't rely quite quite the same way on cut as diamonds do to perform.

So to sum up, we buy diamonds for the sparkle factor. Cut dictates that. We buy coloured stones primarily for the colour.

Oh and also, yes there is a "standard" for "best colour". It's a perfect balance between hue, tone and saturation. And it is as rare as hens teeth

However, humans being different, we all have our preferences.

 

[LD]

Why isn''t the cut king? Because the first thing you should see with a coloured gemstone is the colour.

I don''t know if you''ve looked at coloured diamonds but cut isn''t king there either! There is far less emphasis on a well cut coloured diamond than there is on a white diamond.

The colour of the gemstone (irrespective of whether it''s a sapphire, ruby, emerald, diamond etc) is the thing that "speaks" to you first. If the colour isn''t right, you don''t stop to look at it. Of course, you would then also want the best cut available but sometimes it''s not possible within budget for all the reasons stated above.

Here''s an example. This is a sapphire that "spoke" to me. I couldn''t pass it up. It''s poorly cut and much smaller than I wanted but the colour is so difficult to find and when I look at this, it makes me smile. So sacrifices had to be made. Not everybody is prepared to sacrifice and I understand that but hopefully this has given you a different perspective?

 

[movie zombie]

plus one to everything already said!

it is all about C O L O R !

and just to mix it up a bit more for you, check out this sapphire cab:

http://www.africagems.com/facetedbluesapphiregemstone-107086.html

mz

ps this color v. cut thing gets kicked about here in this forum quite a bit. i think many of us started out being a bit anal re cut but as we learned more we let go of that and embraced color. i said it in your other thread: with your budget you should be able to get an unheated great color and cut smaller stone.

 

[Largosmom]

Your budget is the limiting factor in all gemstone purchases, diamond or colored stones. The tradespace in diamonds is the four C''s. It seems that many here give a bit on color, or clarity, in order to achieve a larger size or better cut and stay within their budget. Since color and carat weight drives the cost of colored gemstones, cut and clarity are where many are willing to bend a bit.

I originally wanted an unheated stone, but decided that cut was more important to me...so accepted the heating and got a gorgeously cut stone. I found in looking at a handful of lovely, native-cut stones that cut was as important as color to me...and I actually saved in the process and got exactly what I wanted. I saved because I chose a non-traditional color rather than only blue to pick from and found an excellent lapidary (Jeff White), who had a stone that could be recut. By the way, I recommend you let the cutter source the stone as they know what they are doing, if you go the route I did.

At the recommendation of the people here on Pricescope, I contacted a few cutters and Jeff had a stone that would work for me.

Laura

 

[chrono]

Believe it or not, fine sapphires are incredibly rare and far fewer than diamonds? All coloured stones are judged differently as well; cut is not top priority but at the same time, it should not be ignored either. It does not need exacting proportions but should remain pleasing to the eye. None of the following: off center culet, extinction, colour zoning, huge gaping windows, overly wavy girdle, off symmetry and the like. Yes, colour is the top priority for several reasons: rarity and colour is all they have unlike colourless diamond. Without the high dispersion of white diamonds, colour is what attracts the eye. Colour is also what sets the price in the coloured gemstone market. For me, I’d rather have the finest colour with a very good cut over an average colour with precision cutting. However, if you are very particular with cut and still want best colour, eye clean and unheated and large, I suggest scouting around with precision cutters and being absolutely clear about the quality (provide example pictures of the colour you like) and be prepared to dig deep into your wallet.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Diamond and Color gems have different priorities. The diamonds main selling point (typically) is the fire and sparkle that you see, which requires a precise cut. Fine material color gems (>>$2000/carat) are sold on color first, cut is important, but definitely a distant second. Typical high-end customers want a fully saturated perfect Kashmir blue color visible from far away, not sparkle. For high quality rough, cutting the gem a little shallow will lighten up a slightly overly saturated stone, sometimes increasing the value 100-200% or more. Cutting it a little deep will darken it if it''s a slightly lightly saturated stone. Naturally, these descriptions are for high quality rough that has a little bit of extinction, or a little bit of windowing, not the excessive bulges you see with low quality material. Something with a big bulge at the bottom is usually low quality rough that was cut big to increase weight retention. Each person has there own opinion on what is important to them so it''s best to buy based on what you like and need vs what is ''typical''.

--Joshua

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 1/25/2010 8:17:54 AM
Author: Chrono
Believe it or not, fine sapphires are incredibly rare and far fewer than diamonds? All coloured stones are judged differently as well; cut is not top priority but at the same time, it should not be ignored either. It does not need exacting proportions but should remain pleasing to the eye. None of the following: off center culet, extinction, colour zoning, huge gaping windows, overly wavy girdle, off symmetry and the like. Yes, colour is the top priority for several reasons: rarity and colour is all they have unlike colourless diamond. Without the high dispersion of white diamonds, colour is what attracts the eye. Colour is also what sets the price in the coloured gemstone market. For me, I’d rather have the finest colour with a very good cut over an average colour with precision cutting. However, if you are very particular with cut and still want best colour, eye clean and unheated and large, I suggest scouting around with precision cutters and being absolutely clear about the quality (provide example pictures of the colour you like) and be prepared to dig deep into your wallet.

nice way of saying diamonds are "common"..........

as i''ve been heard to say: anyone can have a diamond but not everyone can have a world class color stone.......

mz

 

[Bella_mezzo]

I don''t really have anything to add to what everyone here has said.

If you are looking for a gorgeous sapphire that''s really well cut, I''d contact Jeff White or several of the other cutters frequently referenced on this forum.

 

[ma re]

Not much to add, except to repeat that;

- diamonds without brilliance are

and that''s why such importance is given to the cut of white diamonds
- colored stones without their best color are pretty much

so that''s why maximizing the beauty of color is a top priority with them
- optical and physical properties of diamonds are much different than those of most colored stones (much higher refractive index, lack of birefringence, high dispersion, great hardness which allows for a great polish etc.), and they all make the cut of diamonds all that more important.

Your suggestion that there''s no such thing as the best color for a colored gem like sapphire is totally wrong. Prices are reflection of supply and demand ratios, and they clearly show you which colors are the most beautiful to most people. Blue is the most desirable color in the world of colored stones, so that''s one of the reasons why blue sapphires are the most expensive, and considered to be the best color. Also, there''s a way to judge color in gemstones, which is used by everyone in the bussiness, from sellers to buyers. It''s complex, but with a bit of practice anyone can grasp it.

The finest color in colored stones in the only true rarity, cause you can find much more pale blue sapphires which you can then have cut into perfection, than those with the colors of the finest deep blue ones, whose depth of color would probably get sacrificed by insisting on perfect cutting and reduction in weight. Cut is also controlable by humans and can be changed as one desires, while color is something done by nature and unique, so therefore the rarity (cause we can improve color with treatments, but finding a great color without treatments is rare).

There''s also the psychological factor, cause color influences human emotions and it''s the first thing that sparks one''s imagination when it comes to gemstones. So it''s much easier to sell a stone with a great and rare color, than the one with better cut and an ordinary color.

Cost of cutting is also a factor. Cutting diamonds into perfection takes patience and time - and time is money. So why bother spending numerous hours cutting a stone that already has a great selling point in it''s color. That would drive the prices of gemstones much higher and people wouldn''t be as eager to buy them at such prices (some would, but not the majority and that''s what counts).

Looks like I had much to add after all

 

[Hest88]

Right, what everyone else said.

Cut *is* king for colored stones; only the cut serves a different purpose.

Ideally, diamonds are cut to maximize sparkle and colored stones are cut to maximize the color.

It''s like, if a makeup artist is faced with two different women with different physical assets, he''d ideally play up the smooth, clear skin of one while he plays up the intense eyes of the other!

 

[zzbaron]

Thank you for all of your opinions. Michael E asked the perfect question and that was what shape am I looking for? The answer to that is anything that has a square look to it. Finding a round sapphire fitting my cut criteria does seem a lot easier and I may end having to go that route. It is a little discouraging to know that finding a cushion cut sapphire with good symmetrical cuts will be very expensive endeavor.

I think about a thread that was started late last year about a lady who had a ring custom made with a halo around her gem. I think it’s a very nice ring but because the airline was not proportional all the way around her gem it ruined the whole thing for her. Some people are just very particular when it come to proportions and want everything being spot on. I think I would have had the same reaction as her … at least from looking at the pictures anyways.

It was interesting to read the politics of where and why sapphires are cut a certain way. It now makes sense why there are an abundance of average cut sapphires on the market. I initially figured cutting colored gems is considered the minor leagues and once you got enough experience you moved onto diamonds.

I absolutely agree with Loving Diamonds when shes says we should see the beautiful color first before anything else. That’s the first thing I notice before I click on an image to get a better look at it. But as soon as I see that all the angles are goofy I am bummed I didn’t find a good cut one and continue on looking. The round sapphire you showed in your picture is very pretty. Even thought you mention that it’s a bad cut I still actually like it. But when looking for a cushion cut I prefer the look of larger facets and it being perfectly square that’s when I really notice things are off. I like that look because it helps me envision the sapphire was pulled right of the ground and the jeweler placed this magnificent rock with heft and depth and placed into a setting.

Hopefully movie zombie is correct in saying I will eventually move away from placing exact proportions on a pedestal and embrace the color that much more. I can’t make any promises but I’ll try.

 

[kas baby]

don''t be discouraged!! good color and cut can be found and in a squarish shape.

one of my many favorite examples: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/jeff-white-sapphire-brian-gavin-custom-ring.130700/

hers was cut by Jeff White: http://www.whitesgems.com/gallery/corundum.htm

happy hunting!

 

[AustenNut]

You might also want to check out Barry Bridgestone at ACS (Artistic Colored Stones). When you''re talking about chunky cushions, that''s one of the first names that pops to mind in the colored stone world.

Also, when you''re talking about being flexible with the color to get the cut, what kind of color(s) are you talking about? This board is great at finding stones, and I think there''s a particular fondness for e-ring stones.

 

[Gailey]

ZZ,

I know originally you were drawn to an aquamarine for your future fiance''s ring. Today, whilst searching for a stone for someone else I happened upon a square cut aquamarine coloured sapphire at Constantin Wild''s site. I have attached a screen shot of the stone. I can''t link you directly to the page and I should warn you that his site is probably one of the worst to navigate. You literally need to look through his stones one by one until you find one you like. So get your self a cup of coffee and put your feet up!

One thing you may not know is that Idar Oberstein in Germany is considered something of a Mecca to lapidarists and very high quality stones emerge from there. Whereas I have not seen stones in person from this particular cutting house, I have seen stones from another IO house and the cutting is very high quality (to my somewhat untrained eye).

It is also quite possible that this vendor only supplies to the trade. I don''t know because I have never personally expressed an interest in any particular stone. However, they are exibiting in Tuscon next week, so it is possible that this stone maybe on American soil. A local jeweller may well be able to assist you in getting to see it if he won''t deal directly with you.

Good luck with your search.

 

[Harriet]

ZZ,
If you contact Constantin Wild, ask for Werner. He tells it like it is.

G,
Can I convince you to go with me to Ida-Oberstein?

 

[Gailey]

Date: 1/25/2010 6:29:16 PM
Author: Harriet
ZZ,
If you contact Constantin Wild, ask for Werner. He tells it like it is.

G,
Can I convince you to go with me to Ida-Oberstein?

I wouldn''t need too much arm twisting .......

 

[Fly Girl]

I'd give Richard Homer Link a call. He is a top notch award-winning cutter, and believe me, he has many, many stones that are not listed on his web site. His specialty is concave faceting, and you need to see it in person to realize how stunning the effect is. If you value cut and precision, you will get it with his stones. Concave faceting gives darker stones, like blue sapphires, lots of extra flash and sparkle. A very pleasing effect.

 

[Elmorton]

ZZBaron, I''m not a regular in Colored Stones, but this is a question that I get frustrated with quite often. I love sapphires, but it irks me when the cut seems "off" - which is what I tend to see in B&Ms most often.

Regarding Barry for sourcing a sapphire- I contacted him awhile back, and he said for sapphires of larger sizes, he''s been having a lack of good rough to work with. He was wonderfully kind, and I''d love to work with him in the future. He suggested Dan Stair to me as well as this site: www.big-sky-gems.com/facetedstones.aspx

I''ve also contacted Jeff White, and he was incredibly kind over e-mail and of course he has an excellent reputation here - his work is stunning in photos, though I haven''t seen it IRL. For a traditionally cut sapphire, I''d go with him in a heartbeat.

Ultimately, I think when I''m finally ready for my sapphire project, I plan to go with Richard Homer. His sapphires take my breath away (I have seen these in person) and I''m a sucker for the "bow-tie-less" oval.

 

[stepcutgirl]

I would recommend Michael E of Gem Shoppe in a heartbeat as well. He can source stones and then recut them if need be and on top of being incredibly educational he is a super nice guy.