Sad for my sister.

[Nomsdeplume]

VENT
So my sister just got engaged, and that's awesome. But it has been a rocky road to this point. She has been with her SO for 4 years, and last year he moved into his own place. What was strange to me is that he did not want her to have ANY input in the decor or anything, even though throughout the relationship he had been telling her that they would get married "in a few years time". Surely this stuff would be her stuff too at some point then? Why was he so intent on excluding her? Then she asked if they should move in together this year, and he freaked out and said no, because he wasn't ready. Then earlier this year (January) he decided to start measuring her finger one day. So obviously she gets all excited and comes to me to help her look for a ring. She wanted a sapphire and knew that I know a bit more about what to look out for than she did, so I helped her find the perfect stone and setting. I then forwarded all the info to him, thinking he would react positively. Well, he didn't. First he tried to ignore the whole issue, but my sister kept asking and asking about it (she is very pushy at times) so eventually he got angry and said he can't afford it now. (His father bought him a house and car, so he has no debt, and he gets money from his father on top of his salary). He is 26. The whole ring cost about $1000. So my sister gets all sad because he said no, and lets it go.
I have a lot of friends who were with their GFs for 5, 6 or 7 years before realising that she wasn't "the one" and breaking up. I mentioned this to my sister and she got really upset and spoke to him about what I said. So then he must have said something to give her hope, because she started getting excited about the ring again. She literally texted him asking what the progress was every day. So eventually he tells her that he's waiting for the stone to go on sale.
As Murphy would have it, the stone did go on sale. Then she really started texting him all the time.
Eventually he buys it. She's planning the wedding and everyone waits for the proposal. He goes to my mother's house to ask my mother's permission to marry my sister (I don't have a father). He looks so bummed that I jokingly said "come on, why aren't you excited?". He literally went red (with anger), stood up, shoved his finger in my face and said "Listen here..." then trailed off and seemed to realise what he was doing. I asked him to finish the sentence, which he refused to do.
I was confused as to why he would be so angry.
Then she calls me one day and tells me she's engaged. He literally turned over in bed the previous night and just said "I want to ask you something. Will you marry me?". No planning, no ring, no getting down on one knee, no romance. That was over a month ago. She finally got the ring yesterday. He took her to a crappy restaurant and just put the box on the table.
She keeps saying how perfect it all was, because it's so them. I know my sister. When we were younger we used to talk about how we wanted to be proposed to in a romantic, special way...
I know she won't tell me the truth, and I understand that, but I'm sure she is disappointed, and I'm so sad for her and angry at this guy!

 

[junebug17]

Kribbie, I'm sorry you are feeling badly about your sister and the way this whole engagement has happened. I understand how worrisome and frustrating it is to watch what's happening, and to not be comfortable with the situation. It's weird to not feel good about what's happening, but to have to act like you are happy for her. But your sister is an adult, and is free to make her own decisions so unless she confides problems or concerns to you that you can give advice on, I don't think there is much you can do. She sounds happy and excited about her engagement, so I guess you just have to roll with it right now. You sound like you care very deeply for your sister, and that you will be there for her if things take a turn for the worse. I'll admit that her FI doesn't sound like that great of a guy, but again, it's her life and her decision. Sorry you are dealing with this!

eta: I just wanted to add that obviously if you start seeing evidence of abuse, then you should intervene...but as it stands now, if you start pointing out this guy's flaws and things he has done "wrong", it will only make your sister defensive because as I said, she sounds happy right now. But again, I understand your misgivings. Hugs to you, you are a great sister!

 

[RaiKai]

Well, the proposal is *so HIM* that is for sure.

Nothing wrong with a low key proposal - mine was low key and I would not change it for anything - but this was not low key, I am not sure what it was. It was his style it sounds like.

I don't think he really wants to be married from your post (which is just one side of course!), and I do not think that will change even when he is married. I am not sure why he is doing it, but he does not sounds like he either wants to be or is ready to be married.

And HE is not going to change after marriage either, and I am not sure what your sister is expecting in that way. I feel for her, but I also think she ought to know that.

 

[dragonfly411]

Umm, I''m sorry but to me it sounds like your sister was really pushy about the entire thing. I''m sure the guy probably has good intentions, but maybe he wanted to move out to get to have some time living on his own as an individual so he could get to know himself. The things in that house may be items he views as temporary. As for the ring... seriously... texting and calling him every day asking about it, and asking about the progress? And I can actually see where he might be angry with you. You fed her all the cock and bull about dating for 5-7 years and figuring out it wasn''t meant to be.. which got her worked up and panicky. You helped her get all this info together and you emailed him the info on a ring. To him, it probably comes off as you are feeding this all to her and pushing for an engagement almost more than your sister is.

He was probably so completely disenchanted with the entire idea that he didn''t feel it necessary to do something big anymore. She ruined it for him.

Sorry, but I don''t feel sorry for her. I''m glad she is with the person she wants to be with, but I hope that she can learn to not be so pushy and insecure in her relationship.

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 6/18/2010 10:47:47 AM
Author: dragonfly411
Umm, I'm sorry but to me it sounds like your sister was really pushy about the entire thing. I'm sure the guy probably has good intentions, but maybe he wanted to move out to get to have some time living on his own as an individual so he could get to know himself. The things in that house may be items he views as temporary. As for the ring... seriously... texting and calling him every day asking about it, and asking about the progress? And I can actually see where he might be angry with you. You fed her all the cock and bull about dating for 5-7 years and figuring out it wasn't meant to be.. which got her worked up and panicky. You helped her get all this info together and you emailed him the info on a ring. To him, it probably comes off as you are feeding this all to her and pushing for an engagement almost more than your sister is.


He was probably so completely disenchanted with the entire idea that he didn't feel it necessary to do something big anymore. She ruined it for him.


Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for her. I'm glad she is with the person she wants to be with, but I hope that she can learn to not be so pushy and insecure in her relationship.

Reading over this thread again, I do agree with the above comments about being pushy too, and not respecting his opportunity to live on his own (without decorating it to her standards!). Seriously, I would NEVER marry (or have married) someone without having lived on my own first, or him having lived on his own. And that means actually living on their own, decorating as they wish, managing their household as they wish, and so on. Those "living on my own" years were awesome.

I do think a lot of the ring stuff was pushy. You should have asked if he wanted help with ring ideas, and she should NOT have been asking him EVERY day asking about progress. Gosh!

Again, I don't think he sounds like he wants to be married. Or at least not in the way it happens. And it does not sound like he is any more ready now than he was before. I do however think your sister very much wants to be MARRIED at all costs and may be neglecting whether this is really the right relationship to be going forward in marriage in. And I think that probably has also affected the relationship, and the guy's attitude, a lot. A lot of male friends I have have expressed they start to wonder (if their partners act like this) whether their partner really even wants THEM or just wants a wedding and to get their Mrs. degree.

 

[monarch64]

I don''t understand any of it. Why would your sister want to marry a guy who clearly doesn''t want to marry her? It all sounds completely forced and contrived on her part, and he sounds totally resentful. I''m not sure why you''re angry with him???

 

[lilyfoot]

Date: 6/18/2010 11:15:23 AM
Author: monarch64
I don''t understand any of it. Why would your sister want to marry a guy who clearly doesn''t want to marry her? It all sounds completely forced and contrived on her part, and he sounds totally resentful. I''m not sure why you''re angry with him???

I have to agree with monarch (which has been happening a lot lately!)

Honestly, in my opinion, BOTH people in this situation are to blame; my fear is that this isn''t going to end well

 

[Nomsdeplume]

I agree with a lot of what you ladies have said. To clarify a bit though, he has been telling her "I want to get married to you" since a while back, so it''s not like he has ever indicated that he wasn''t sure, or wanted to be on his own etc.
And yes, I did ask if he wanted help and he said yes. It was really up and down. First he didn''t seem ready (when the living together question came up), and I don''t think she was pushy at that point. But then after the day he measured her finger he seemed really keen on the whole idea, and the info I found, until he actually received the info. I think at that point it became real to him.
So when he wasn''t positive I told my sister to back off. She is pushy, and difficult, and didn''t listen to me. As for "feeding her cock and bull"... I know my sister is flawed, but I care about her and I don''t want her to be unhappy. I saw warning signs and tried to help. Honestly if you would just sit back and not have an honest chat with someone you care about when you can see they are headed for unhappiness... then maybe you are not the type of person I am, and that''s fine, but I did what I thought was best for her at that point.
Even though she did push him, he got the situation started, and despite everything, she is a good and special person and deserves to be treated as such. Especially by the guy she loves who claims to love her.

 

[Hest88]

I agree with both gals. Your sister was way pushy, but the guy also doesn''t sound all that great and *definitely* doesn''t sound like he wants to get married. It''s not about the proposal--I didn''t have a proposal at all, we just pretty much talked about marriage from the beginning--but about the obvious lack of his desire to meld his life with your sister''s.

I seriously hope, if they end up getting married, that she waits to have kids until she''s sure he''s completely on board with being a husband and father.

 

[tyty333]

Date: 6/18/2010 10:47:47 AM
Author: dragonfly411
Umm, I''m sorry but to me it sounds like your sister was really pushy about the entire thing. I''m sure the guy probably has good intentions, but maybe he wanted to move out to get to have some time living on his own as an individual so he could get to know himself. The things in that house may be items he views as temporary. As for the ring... seriously... texting and calling him every day asking about it, and asking about the progress? And I can actually see where he might be angry with you. You fed her all the cock and bull about dating for 5-7 years and figuring out it wasn''t meant to be.. which got her worked up and panicky. You helped her get all this info together and you emailed him the info on a ring. To him, it probably comes off as you are feeding this all to her and pushing for an engagement almost more than your sister is.

He was probably so completely disenchanted with the entire idea that he didn''t feel it necessary to do something big anymore. She ruined it for him.

Sorry, but I don''t feel sorry for her. I''m glad she is with the person she wants to be with, but I hope that she can learn to not be so pushy and insecure in her relationship.

Got to agree with DF...and I think you were waaay too involved in what was going on. Poor guy...probably feels like he was
coerced. No wonder he didnt want any input from your sister on his house. He would have been pressured to do what
she/you wanted. I think you need to back waaaay off. By all means, have conversations with your sister but you cant be
feeding into her drama. You need to ask her questions that will help her figure things out on her own. I can pretty much
tell you that I have never met a guy that liked a pushy girl. If she wants to push him out of her life than she needs to keep
doing what she is doing. If she has had enough time "waiting" for him to make up his mind then maybe she needs to consider
moving on and finding someone else who loves her. I''m sorry this all seems harsh. I guess it falls into the category of tough love.

 

[Circe]

This raises two opposing reactions in me - one is a kind of a cringe, because I so see elements of myself in what you describe of your sister. I've always been a micromanager. The trick wasn't learning not to micromanage, though ... it was finding a guy who was happy to accommodate me and how I like to do things. And, in turn, I return the favor - *he* loves to be surprised! Oy.

I think I would find it terribly dis-empowering to have to live according to someone else's schedule while maintaining a facade of perfect confidence, so as to not scare them off - it really would be all about them! (It would, I suppose, be nice to exist in a state of perfect confidence - but, frankly, it would also be nice to be 5'10" and a natural redhead.) The fact that your sis and her fiance are so far apart in their reactions - her obsessing and him passive-aggressively giving her what she wants but not *really* so as to spoil it for her raises some warning flags for me.

Which brings me to my second point ... while the whole "have my cake and eat it too" approach to proposing (i.e., women telling men they want to be proposed to, as opposed to just proposing to them) leaves me a bit cold. At least she told him what she wanted, and, frankly, after four years of dating and several discussions of marriage, it's not like it came out of the blue. Why is it when women say what they want, they're pushy/demanding/nags, but when men do, they're decisive? In scenarios like this, I think it's because we're socialized to be reticent, which can clash with articulating what we want (turning into the above behaviors). It's a damned shame, I think ....

 

[tigian]

I can sympathize, Kribble.
I have a younger sister and if I were in your shoes, I would be sad too. Even if she may have been pushy, nobody deserves to have a SO that is so reluctant about starting a life together. I hope he is mature enough to either change his attitude or be completely honest with himself and your sister if he doesn''t want to get married. Sure your sister will be hurt, but in the long run, if he doesn''t want to be married at this point, she will be better off. Keep us updated. I hope things will work out.

 

[lilyfoot]

kribbie, I understand this is your sister, so of course you''re going to be protective (especially a younger sister). However, IMO, you need to realize that if your sister is old enough to get married, then she''s old enough to handle herself and her relationship.

I know you love her, and I know you think she deserves somebody better, but a huge part of loving somebody is letting them make their own mistakes, and live their own life. Just try to be there for her, as this doesn''t sound like it''s going to end with rainbows and puppies, if you KWIM.

Maybe you could suggest that they should do pre-marital counseling, and hope that it will help them work out their issues, or help them realize they aren''t supposed to get married.

 

[Hest88]

Date: 6/18/2010 12:27:38 PM
Author: Circe

Which brings me to my second point ... while the whole ''have my cake and eat it too'' approach to proposing (i.e., women telling men they want to be proposed to, as opposed to just proposing to them) leaves me a bit cold. At least she told him what she wanted, and, frankly, after four years of dating and several discussions of marriage, it''s not like it came out of the blue. Why is it when women say what they want, they''re pushy/demanding/nags, but when men do, they''re decisive?

Circe, I''m quite assertive too and, believe me, because of that I manage most of the household, our finances, where we go on vacation, etc. because of that. And I married a mellow guy who''s fine leaving all those decisions to me with minimal input. However, that''s a far cry from this:

So obviously she gets all excited and comes to me to help her look for a ring. She wanted a sapphire and knew that I know a bit more about what to look out for than she did, so I helped her find the perfect stone and setting. I then forwarded all the info to him, thinking he would react positively. Well, he didn''t. First he tried to ignore the whole issue, but my sister kept asking and asking about it (she is very pushy at times) so eventually he got angry and said he can''t afford it now….So my sister gets all sad because he said no, and lets it go.
I have a lot of friends who were with their GFs for 5, 6 or 7 years before realising that she wasn''t "the one" and breaking up. I mentioned this to my sister and she got really upset and spoke to him about what I said. So then he must have said something to give her hope, because she started getting excited about the ring again. She literally texted him asking what the progress was every day.

Bolding mine. This is not just being assertive. It''s about completely taking over. Did the OP''s sister *know* she had permission to shop for a ring he was responsible for buying? Did the boyfriend approach the OP and ask for help? And then having the sister nag her boyfriend every single day around when he was getting her the ring? I don''t see that as being assertive in any sort of healthy way.

 

[redhead02]

From the original post I was concerned about the sister and the OP, with how involved they got and how the guy probably felt harangued. But if you did ask him if he wanted help, and he was excited at first...yeah he sounds like he was really hot and cold about it, which is concerning. Maybe it was largely related to your sister''s nagging, as others have suggested. Her behavior was fairly alarming.

I hope it works out, but it sounds like both could benefit from some premarital counseling.

 

[Cehrabehra]

sounds to me like a lot of immaturity at float here - by all three of you. I''m not sure why you are so involved... I think it is because the other two aren''t ready for this.

 

[Hera]

I can understand that you wanted the best for your sister but you definitely got over involved. It''ll be really helpful for you to develop boundaries because it''s your sister''s relationship and you have to let her live her life.

I wouldn''t be too concerned about the non romantic proposal because most people don''t really get their dream proposal. It''s not fairy tale land and if your sister says she was happy, then that''s all that matters. As far as them not being ready, I hope that your sister will have some lengthy talks with her fiance.

 

[kagordo4]

I don''t know if I agree with everyone that you got over involved, only you know your relationship with your sister. My best friend helped me pick out rings I looooved before actually looking with the boyfriend. But this guy raises some serious hot and cold flags.

I totally get that your sister is excited. A lot of ladies on here comment on how they ask their SO about the ring and stuff all the time, but maybe that''s not the type of guy he is? The situation is obviously vague to me (and everyone except you, your sister, and her now fiance.)

I do totally find it weird that he moved out and wanted her to have to point in the decorating. When my boyfriend moved out on his own he valued my opinion because he knew I would spend a ton of time there.

Anyway contrary to popular opinion maybe you should suggest that your sister take an epic chill pill and then in a few weeks talk to her fiance? I mean, it doesn''t sound like a healthy relationship to me. Oh and BTW I would have brought up the friends that realized after a while things weren''t working, too.

Anyway, vent away my friend. Who am I, or anyone else, to critize you and your actions when you were looking for an outlet to vent.

 

[fieryred33143]

Wow. I have to say that your actions left me feeling very…

When I was in the process of getting engaged, I had a lot of pressure and negative comments coming from people that made me feel worthless and embarrassed. My FI never made me feel that way. He always made me feel loved and appreciated. He never made me feel like he didn’t want to be with me. But the comments from others were so terrible. They made me cry on several occasion.

Hate to tell you this but what those people did to me, you are doing to your sister. The comments on why he didn’t let her pick décor, why he doesn’t want to move in with her, sending him details on ring stuff that he didn’t ask you for, asking him why he isn’t excited about asking permission, and now criticizing the proposal. Seriously? Do you not see how you are contributing to your sister’s sadness? Who are you to pass judgment on what she considers to be a perfect proposal?

Honestly, if I were this guy I would run. It sounds like he has a lifetime of trying to make your sister happy in order for her to fulfill your perceptions of how her life should be.

Sorry if this seems harsh but I remember going through what you are putting your sister through and the feeling sucks. Constantly having to defend what is going on in your life sucks

 

[allycat0303]

Having gone through a similar situation with my sister, all I can say is, that you should let your sister make her own decisions. Try to be there for her if there is a fallout. I''ve learnt over the years that people have to make their own choices, and there is nothing you can do about it. If she asks your opinon, then by all means give it. If not then I don''t think you should verbalize your discontent at the situation.

If she is making a mistake, she will realize it on her own. Or she will live with the consequences of her actions.

 

[yssie]

Date: 6/18/2010 11:52:30 AM
Author: tyty333

Date: 6/18/2010 10:47:47 AM
Author: dragonfly411
Umm, I'm sorry but to me it sounds like your sister was really pushy about the entire thing. I'm sure the guy probably has good intentions, but maybe he wanted to move out to get to have some time living on his own as an individual so he could get to know himself. The things in that house may be items he views as temporary. As for the ring... seriously... texting and calling him every day asking about it, and asking about the progress? And I can actually see where he might be angry with you. You fed her all the cock and bull about dating for 5-7 years and figuring out it wasn't meant to be.. which got her worked up and panicky. You helped her get all this info together and you emailed him the info on a ring. To him, it probably comes off as you are feeding this all to her and pushing for an engagement almost more than your sister is.

He was probably so completely disenchanted with the entire idea that he didn't feel it necessary to do something big anymore. She ruined it for him.

Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for her. I'm glad she is with the person she wants to be with, but I hope that she can learn to not be so pushy and insecure in her relationship.

Got to agree with DF...and I think you were waaay too involved in what was going on. Poor guy...probably feels like he was
coerced. No wonder he didnt want any input from your sister on his house. He would have been pressured to do what
she/you wanted. I think you need to back waaaay off. By all means, have conversations with your sister but you cant be
feeding into her drama. You need to ask her questions that will help her figure things out on her own. I can pretty much
tell you that I have never met a guy that liked a pushy girl. If she wants to push him out of her life than she needs to keep
doing what she is doing. If she has had enough time 'waiting' for him to make up his mind then maybe she needs to consider
moving on and finding someone else who loves her. I'm sorry this all seems harsh. I guess it falls into the category of tough love.

Big ditto.

In our engagement I was the one who wanted to wait, and FI was a MIW. I told him I wanted to marry him, but I just wasn't ready to take that step now.

He kept the pressure off me, waited for me to be ready for it, and now that we're engaged has no bitter feelings about the wait whatsoever. And I couldn't love and respect him more for respecting me.

If he had asked pestered me every day about giving me the ring, when I was going to be ready for him to ask, telling me we'd been dating for a long time and we'd been waiting long enough...worse, if he had a brother or sister who was egging him on like it sounds like you were re. your sister, I'd have been furious, hurt, and completely fed up with the whole thing.

This whole saga reeks of immaturity. Poor guy, I imagine what it must have been like and I feel for him.

 

[diva rose]

this is my first time posting - was just lurking here but wanted to express my thoughts

kribbie - i really feel for you and i don't thnk you're being immature at all

you probably already know by now it really isn't your place, but as a sister myself, i know i'd be so upset if this was happening to my sister
i would want to protect her also and want what's best for her

however in the end..she choose that guy so she must learn that lesson herself
all you can do is be there for her and pick up the pieces (hopefully this won't happen)

from my understanding and experience with relationships and human behaviour (yes i did study this & it is part of my job); if the guy was happy and ready to propose - i don't think he would have responded in such a negative manner towards your sister or your actions
most men who want to marry you - will laugh about it and find it amusing that their woman is so excited and obsessed on the proposal/ring
the men that are not sure or have uncertainties about it - they get irritated etc

think about your experiences with your children or your experiences as a child
when a child nags her parents about her christmas or birthday gift..you don't get annoyed
you think it's cute and can't help give her clues re: what the gift is

in the end..men and proposals are very simple - it isn't rocket science
if he hasn't asked yet..that means he isn't ready
if you mention it and he gets angry etc..that means there are some uncertainties/issues around it
it's not hard to figure out a guy - but as women we tend to look too much into things

 

[calamityJJJ]

Oh kribbi, I''m sorry that you are upset. I understand why, as a sister myself.

I know what it''s like to want what is best for your sibling, to protect them from harm and to want to make their lives as happy as possible.
I agree that your sister was quite demanding and pushy, and did not approach this situation in the best way. You have received some good advice, but as a long time lurker I think a few of the responses were a bit catty, especially since some of them come from ladies who have either posted about their SO being less than eager to propose or not saying anything if you have nothing nice to say, etc.
I think you need to be there for your sister, because if it doesn''t work out she will need you more than ever.
Good luck and (HUGS)

 

[SlotMonster]

From my point of view, this guy is real lazy a$$$ole. Even in my country, where the averge salary range is about $300/month people still find money (and time!) to propose in a romantic way. So, getting an extra money from his father and refusing to buy $1000 ring is an extremely inappropriate behaviour for the man who is going to propose. And showin "the finger" to the sister...I just can''t believe...