PS Vendors @ Dave Atlas for Imagem Presentation

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/20/2005 9

9

2 PM
Author: strmrdr
John,

While there did you run a diamond thru it that Brian had color graded to see if the color grade matched what Brian graded it at?

Run some ACA's and some ES stones to see if it picked up the difference?

Or did ya all say wow kewl machine lets eat? :} lol

Brian took some sample stones from his vault. He selected them late last night, so I don't know what he decided on. Haven't had time to put the halogens on him and debrief him yet

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/20/2005 9:23:14 PM
Author: Matata

Ah yes, incontrovertible evidence that you cannot see differences in specimens until they are side-by-side. For the record, I'd choose you over Kelsey any day

Well that gets an Ex/Ex in gracious and sweet. Thank you, Matata.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/20/2005 6:41:15 PM
Author: noobie
John wasn''t there because he was too busy eating food somewhere else!

P.S. Hope you don''t mind, but I''m sure people love to see your smiling face

I never knew John was a girl?

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Your a bad man Garry...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Well ColoredNut, you tell me is it the girl of the guy that is smiling in this photo?

Sorry for outing you Sir John.

 

[YoungPapa]

Date: 1/20/2005 5:30:35 PM
Author: Hest88
Oh, very cool!

Jim from DCD looks much younger than I''d pictured him.

Hest88,

If we ever have the pleasure to meet you''ll probably find I''m shorter than you pictured too

 

[YoungPapa]

Date: 1/20/2005 7:21

2 PM
Author: strmrdr
Where is the lighting model listed so the results can be verified by other means?
Without the lighting model its just another black box that we are supposed to believe in.
No thanks.
The color grading is interesting but I put no more weight in the light return readings than I do the B-scope or isee2.
Interesting but not very informative.

strmrdr,

I am not nearly as tecnhical in my requirements as many of the PS crowd, but I did wonder some of the same things myself. I sent Dave Atlas an email asking more about it - our candid email exchange is below:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Schultz" url]">
> To: "Dave Atlas" url]">
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:35 AM
> Subject: Imagem
>
>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I had a good time yesterday and think the Imagem reports could help me
>> sell more diamonds. That''s a good thing.
>>
>> But before I come up and run reports on more diamonds, however, I need to
>> feel confident that the machine is real science. How and when are the Imaggem guys
>> going to explain the "why''s" and the "how''s" of this machine and show that
>> it is different (and better) than competing technology?
>>
>> Are they ready to prove themselves to a critical audience? If so
>> call or email me to discuss.
>>
>> Jim Schultz, President
>> Dirt Cheap Diamonds Inc.
>> Huge Selection, Fair Prices, Straight Talk
>> Toll Free: 1-877-826-9866
>> MD/VA/DC: 1-301-473-7377

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Atlas [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:18 PM
> To: Jim Schultz
> Cc: ralph day
> Subject: Re: Imagem
>
>
> Jim: I don''t blame you for wanting to be sure this isn''t a black box,
> voodoo trick.
>
> Here is a press release:
>
> ImaGem''s inventor, Dr. Lalit K. Aggarwal, will also be a part of the
> afternoon panel discussion at the Accredited Gemologists Association''s
> February 2nd
> "Diamond Cut Grades" conference. This will be the first time Dr. Aggarwal
> will address the industry with the
> science behind ImaGem''s technology. As many of you know, the event begins
> at 8:30 a.m. and continues to 5:30
> p.m. at Tucson''s Marriott University Park Hotel.
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> There will be a critical audience there and he may need to explain the
> science....I think the ImaGem people, including Dr. Aggarwal would be glad
> to have you visit their offices and development center to give you a
> better
> idea of the professionalism and expertise that is involved. I am
> thoroughly
> convinced this is not smoke and mirrors, but I will tell you that there is
> patent protection and intellectual property interests here that will make
> complete disclosure of what is going on not take place. Certainly much
> can
> be said, but some things will not ever be divulged. I agree that some
> scientific knowledge may be helpful in responding to noise makers and
> questioners, but it is also my belief that as the ImaGem device is allowed
> to do
> the job correctly there will be no better answer to critics than "a
> correct result
> occurs using this technology".
>
> I''ll forward a copy of this to Ralph Day, the ImaGem marketing man. He
> and
> Dr. Aggarwal can discuss the matter and advise both of us how they wish to
> respond to your needs and the doubters out there. I''d be very happy to
> process your diamonds once we get these things cleared up.
>
> Dave Atlas
>cc: Ralph Day
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[noobie]

Jim,

Thanks for that note. Dave''s optimism for the technology is promising and lends credibility. Dave I hope you don''t mind me asking, but did you assist in development and in the interest of full disclosure, do you have a commercial interest in the technology?

I''d be very interested in the background of the technology.

Hest88: Jim may appear younger than you thought, but I didn''t think he was short, but that''s all relative

. I will say he''s a good guy. That goes for all of the people I have personally met or dealt with in the picture.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Jim is hardly vertically challenged, but I can tell you his mind is sharp enough to jump tall buildings with a single bound.

I have also met Dr. Lalit K. Aggarwal and the rest of the ImaGem team last year at Vegas. We spent quite a long time in a deep conversation and I can say for sure that he is a very intelligent man (and a kind and nice person).

I can also speak for Dave - he has had a long involvement and done a lot of work on this project. He has on occasion been in a position where he has needed to say that he was involved in a project that he could not discuss, and asked me to understand. As far as i am concerned, anything non fraudulent technology that leads to the improvement in diamond appearance and cut quality is a good thing. Even if it ends up competing with my own pursuits (which cost me money, they are cash negative). I think Dave shares that approach.

But I have not been given any information that allows me to decide that the device or process will work as a cut quality device any better than the Brilliancescope or the ISEE2.

Patents are meant to disclose the methodology to the extent that any person skilled in the field could replicte the device / process.
I am afraid I know of no-one who has read the patents and been able to make a conclusion as to what the process is - it seems the patents describe a black box, not the way the balck box works.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=11&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=diamond.PPDB.&s2=Aggarwal.INZZ.&OS=SPEC/diamond+AND+IN/Aggarwal&RS=SPEC/diamond+AND+IN/Aggarwal

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,020,954.WKU.&OS=PN/6,020,954&RS=PN/6,020,954

Perhaps there are more patents that i do not know about?
However i always thought that the idea of a patent was you give up your right to conceal secrets, in return for a number of years of monopoly - the right to stop others from copying you.

 

[perry]

Garry:

Believe it or not - these patents are clearer written than many these days. The days of virtual exact blueprints went out long ago, and now only general concepts are discussed. That way they can claim a broad application for their patent. Yet, someone who really knows diamond grading machines can probably closely duplicate it based on what is presented.

One area I have difficulty with and will certainly want more details on is the light source used for color grading. To quote the patent:

"Still another object of the invention is to measure color and assign a color grade to a gemstone. This is accomplished by using an illuminant standard such as D 55 recommended by the C.I.E. (International Commission on Illumination) having a color rendition and an ultra violet component that closely resembles North-Daylight."

Now if that doesn't raise more questions than it answers...

D55 is a concept, an ideal. There are many ways of "building" a bulb that gets there - theoretcially - but that has almost no relationship to how we see color in natural sunlight, and could produce a false color grade (of course, there is no real control over how color is graded now as differernt labs and locations in the world use different light sources...).

For more information on spectal output of the sun (after being filtered through the atmosphere) and common lighting sources please check out the following: (For some reason the site does not broadcast the specific web address of its buried pages to my browser - so I will tell you how to get to the presentation.)

First goto www.solux.net (but know the next two instructions as those are not links in this posting)

Then click on the "here" in the first paragraph where it talks about information regarding spectral power distributions...

Next click on "Daylight Primer" to load a 38 page power point presentation. Be sure to read all the text displayed below the upper box for each page.

I have looked at spectral charts for many of the lights that claim D55. Not even close to the solor spectrum, or Solux lighting (which only claims D50).

Of course the intensity of lighting also affects what we see (again the Solux site has the simplist explaination I have seen).

Then there is a problem with what is exactly "North Daylight" and how much UV does it have.

Are you looking at it in the morning, at noon, the evening; in the summer, fall, winter, spring? Is there cloud cover or not?

Courtesy of Marty Haske, who once provided me this tidbit from an old GIA diamond dictionary. North Daylight: "illumination from the northern sky between 10am and 12noon on a moderately overcast morning during the sping or fall".

Further research on the issue by my part at the time indicated that the amount of UV at the extreme north or south latitudes is about 1/1000 of the UV reaching the ground at the near the equator. On a Cloudy day: Depends on the type of cloud cover... Partly cloudy has a mixed affect: From reducing the UV to actually increasing it in some cases where a person is exposed to UV that is refracted or reflected from a cloud along with the UV they are getting from direct sunlight. A light uniform cloud cover provides about a 50% reduction in UV A reaching the ground. Further reductions in UV A occur with increasing cloud density.

Considering the location of much of the old diamond centers in the northern hemishpere - North Daylight in the spring or fall under light cloud cover would represent very little UV.

On the other hand. I have seen arguments from others that North (or South) Daylight should be difined from the equator to eliminate the effects of latitude. There would be substantial UV at the equator - even under light cloud cover.

I believe that the industry really needs to identify what exactly is "North Daylight" and I personally believe that the best way to color grade diamonds is by blocking the UV. If a person then happens to live - or go into - a higher UV environment, they possibly get an added bonus.

There is nothing in the patent to restrict you from changing different light sources as long as they somehow met the "D55" standard. The Solux power point indicates just how much of a fallacy this is. Changing the light source would of course affect the color grade.

I also think, that use of the 4700K Solux bulb, filtered for UV, for diamond grading might be a pretty good idea - and perhaps the standard (or patent) should state that. Please note that there exist other standards in the world the define the results based on a very specific piece of equipment (which has kept those Mfr's in business for decades). My favorite example of this is the "Octane Testing Engine" used worldwide. It was designed long long ago - and looks like a gas engine at the antique shows. But it works well, and is still in production (and thus Octane ratings are determined using the same geometry, speed, and spark worldwide).

Perry

 

[perry]

Here is some updated information on the UV question.

The world has now largly adopted a UV A "Report" scale that it looks like almost everyone is now using to provide people information on the health effects of the UV (specifically the UV A; note that some UV B gets through on a clear sky and the UV B is most responsible for skin cancers, while the UV A tans and results in wrinkles and loss of elasticity years later).

For a comparison I went looking arround the world.

These are all current information for today (Jan 23)

New York: The historical headquarters of GIA has a UV A report of about 1

Carlsbad Ca: The current headquarers of GIA has a UV A report of about 3

Austrialia (the entier continent): has a UV A report ranging from 13 to 15 depending on location.

Someone could take the same diamond, with strong fluoresence, outside in New York and not see any color shift. Take the same diamond to Garry and take it outside and it would probably color shift by 2 grades.

This is why a very solid fixed definintion of "North/South Daylight" for color grading needs to be made. It really matters as the amount of UV varies all over the world.

Eddited to add: For those interested in a good general site to look up UV A reports, here is a web page that provides links to the better sites arround the world. Note that I do not specifically endorse/ or critisize the other topics on the site as I have not spent a lot of time reviewing them.
www.theozonehole.com/uvindex.htm

Hope this helps,

Perry

 

[oldminer]

For the record, I was invited to be a diamond industry, gemologist consultant about eight years ago by Dr. Aggarwal, now represented by ImaGem, Inc. I have received a tiny bit of stock ownership in ImaGem, about 4/10 of 1% of non-voting stock in this privately held company as compensation. ImaGem presently has no or only a tiny amount of revenue, so you can imagine the relatively mild compensation I have earned. Now, one can''t deny the potential earnings and potential value of this little bit of stock, but many companies come and go, so there isn''t any guarantee of any future compensation, either.

I did this work for several reasons. I found Dr. Aggarwal a highly intelligent, kind and gentle person who had desires compatible with my own. We both want to bring something good and useful into the world while we are here, as after you are dead and gone, only your good works remain. Both of us already have more than enough of material goods and money. Sure, we like our little perks, but the greatest gifts and pleasures are of the moind and spirit, not composed of material. The mind creates the greatest joy when it is being used in constructive ways. ImaGem has the smartest group of people I have ever had the pleasure to frequently interact with. Nothing suits me better, so I would admit that I''d do it all for no money, but just for the pleasure......Of course, future potential is always a nice kicker, too. Maybe someday I will even work for ImaGem, but for now, AGA is where my main interests will remain.

I believe the product will satisfy a great need in the market. It appears to me that it has been carefully crafted to give correct results. It has been exhaustively tested by highly skilled gemologists and scientists for more than 2 years in these final stages. I have not been the only consultant used.

Just like Garry, who has a vested interest in the Russian Octonus group, I have supported the Russian endeavor in my own ways during my years of working with ImaGem. I have allowed Octonus to put the Old AGA Cut Class standards into DiamCalc and have bought their product as much to use it as to give them a bit of financial support. It must have been difficult for them to have done this work under the financial squeeze such as they live with.

During the Accredited Gemologists Conference in Tucson on 2/1/05 I will be giving away many sample Ideal-Scopes in a cooperation with Garry Holloway. Dr. Aggarwal will be right there presenting information on ImaGem and I will be there as a support for him and also doing the Ideal-Scope give away. This does not bother ImaGem, as we all believe the I-S shows the eye a great stone and the ImaGem device will confirm this is happening....Both inexpensive and expensive tools which appear to be mutually compatible...One portable, one very large and heavy. One visual and one which measures.

If a tool works, I support it. It is a fair way to treat these huge changes which we are going to see in the diamond business. Being on the sidelines is not in my character.

 

[perry]

Dave (Oldtimer):

I have no problem with your arrangment. You should probably have more stock in my opinion. I do hope it works out.

Do you think you can get Imagem to provide some information related to lighting and UV in response to my post above.

Perry

 

[noobie]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the background .... you never know, just think if you owned 4/10 of 1% of Microsoft today!

Looking forward to more on the device.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/22/2005 4:17:13 PM
Author: noobie
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the background .... you never know, just think if you owned 4/10 of 1% of Microsoft today!

Roger that!

 

[oldminer]

"Do you think you can get Imagem to provide some information related to lighting and UV in response to my post above."

My response was what I posted above. Dr. Aggarwal and the rest of ImaGem are the ones who will decide what, when and how to relate technical information on their technology. Rest assured, they not only read Pricescope, but are very actively fact finding things about what the market requires of their business. Included in this will be input from me on virtually a daily basis as to what they need to address. Of course, it is purely up to their management team to make these important choices.

No doubt, Dr. Aggarwal will address some of your concerns in the upcoming Tucson Conference on 2/1/05. The trade presss will be there and others who want to know, as well. Within hours of that meeting there is bound to be further information available that will find its way to Pricescope. I can''t imagine otherwise. It has been years in development and very recent in coming public. Just a few more days, and I would think everyone will be better informed about many aspects that interest them. ImaGem is well aware of these burning questions that need solid responses. Again, I will remind people that there is no obligation to reveal trade secrets, but I don''t believe much will be kept under wraps...... There is an air of suspense as the snow falls here in advance of the Eagles game tomorrow.