Prenups / postnups

[Mekp]

I'm with @Ionysis. Privately, I have more respect for people who spend at least some portion of their lives working outside the home, even if not for very long, having to be suited and booted and at their desks looking alert by 8 am, experiencing challenges like bosses and co-workers, and knowing what it's like to have to produce, and generating taxes, than I do for people who have never worked. (I don't count people who take career breaks to have kids; I'm talking about people who have never had a job.)

That's one of the reasons I don't have much respect for Kate Middleton, who did absolutely nothing for many years between college and marriage, and who has consistently done a fraction of the engagements that all the other royals do, including those who are decades older than her. I think that never working outside the home is taking the easy way out, and it's just lazy, frankly. This is just my private opinion. As a very hard worker myself, this is how never-workers appear to me.

This isn't really about the kids issue. I know people who have never had kids and who don't have a real job. They mess about forming a company of one and appointing themselves CEO.

Funnily enough, I was reflecting the other day about how many people I know who don't have real jobs. It's a lot. After graduation, everybody was fast off the starting blocks, but in middle age, many seem to have lost their enthusiasm for work, regardless of whether they have kids or not. It's interesting.

I think that's a really unfortunate take. The reality is, we never know what another person is going through. My husband is one of those people who has never had a regular job. Turns out he had undiagnosed ADHD and autism. My kids both have autism, too, and while I expect they will work I would not be at all surprised if it was less conventional work. I don't think any of them is less than because of that.
Heck, if we want to start discarding people because they don't have conventional achievements, throw me out because I'm a high school drop out. I probably don't deserve respect, either.
In my experience, the most interesting and strongest people didn't get that way working a 9 to 5 job. There is a heck of a lot more to life than that.
And I say this as a mom who has always worked full time, in some pretty impressive positions; The least interesting thing about me is my resume.

 

[daisygrl]

No pre-nup for us because I was much younger than my husband and had nothing, he had some. He did not care for pre-nup. He was very well educated and I had a high school degree only (I was 20 when we met). Now, I have a Ph.D. and a law degree (thanks to him, his generosity, and patience while I was jumping from school to school) and make same as he does. No post-nup because there is no way we will fight with yet another lawyer and pour money into them. We both have an agreement who gets what and I know he will keep his word and he knows that I will keep mine. We both just know. I love cars but am a vegan so all my high-end cars have custom-made seats. He loves buying houses so if anything, we are equal in materialist value of acquired property during the marriage. However, when he upgraded my e-ring last year, I told him, I will keep this if we divorce. Now, I am upgrading again, and will have to remind him of this condition.

 

[Elizabeth35]

No pre-nup for us because I was much younger than my husband and had nothing, he had some. He did not care for pre-nup. He was very well educated and I had a high school degree only (I was 20 when we met). Now, I have a Ph.D. and a law degree (thanks to him, his generosity, and patience while I was jumping from school to school) and make same as he does. No post-nup because there is no way we will fight with yet another lawyer and pour money into them. We both have an agreement who gets what and I know he will keep his word and he knows that I will keep mine. We both just know. However, when he upgraded my e-ring last year, I told him, I will keep this if we divorce. Now, I am upgrading again, and will have to remind him of this condition.

Now that is teamwork! He sounds like a keeper.
I find that most wealthy people avoid spending needlessly on attorneys.
That's why things are structured in wills, trusts, titling of assets, etc. Most have trusts for their kids and grand-kids as well and they are structured to not be pilfered by a divorcing spouse.

And even if you have a prenup or postnup---the other party can still contest and run up the legal fees. Possibly even more than if there was no agreement.

 

[Lookinagain]

Now that is teamwork! He sounds like a keeper.
I find that most wealthy people avoid spending needlessly on attorneys.
That's why things are structured in wills, trusts, titling of assets, etc. Most have trusts for their kids and grand-kids as well and they are structured to not be pilfered by a divorcing spouse.

And even if you have a prenup or postnup---the other party can still contest and run up the legal fees. Possibly even more than if there was no agreement.

Yes but a pre-nup can act as a deterrent to a legal battle. You’d need a fairly strong case to challenge it because if you lose you will most likely still have to pay your own fees.
I think wills and trusts are very important but those typically don’t come into play until you actually have the assets. The pre-nup can address assets you don’t yet have.

 

[Elizabeth35]

Yes but a pre-nup can act as a deterrent to a legal battle. You’d need a fairly strong case to challenge it because if you lose you will most likely still have to pay your own fees.
I think wills and trusts are very important but those typically don’t come into play until you actually have the assets. The pre-nup can address assets you don’t yet have.

I'm not an attorney so I can't address advantages.
I am only stating my experience with people I know.
But actually, everyone should have a will and living will (along with healthcare and financial POA) from the get go, even if you have zero assets.

Whatever works for you is best for you.

 

[Jambalaya]

discarding people

No one's discarding anyone. It's just an opinion. We all have 'em! Of course, if someone has personal challenges, that's different. The rest should get off their lazy butts at least once in their lives!

 

[Lookinagain]

I'm not an attorney so I can't address advantages.
I am only stating my experience with people I know.
But actually, everyone should have a will and living will (along with healthcare and financial POA) from the get go, even if you have zero assets.

Whatever works for you is best for you.

Yes a will, a durable POA, health care proxy of course. But a trust can’t exist without something being put into it and you also mentioned the title in which assets are held. Those are the things I was referring to when I said they are often not acquired until after one marries.

 

[Elizabeth35]

Yes a will, POA, health care proxy of course. But a trust can’t exist without something being put into it and you also mentioned the title of assets. Those are the things I was referring to when I said they are often not acquired until after one marries.

In my circle--because we married in our 50's--each partner had not only assets and properties but children that we had to protect.
But for those who are pre children and have no assets--much can be accomplished as you go along with titling, POD, and eventually trusts.
I guess I don't understand paying thousands of $ for a prenup if you don't have assets.
Understand the marital law in your region and plan accordingly as you acquire property and also plan your beneficiaries of life insurance and retirement plans at work.
A prenup with no assets seems like overkill. Just my opinion.

 

[Rhea]

No pre or post nups here. I'm very strongly of the opinion that no matter what your partner does, you didn't get where you are without them. We've both contributed less and more than the other during our nearly 2 decade union. I live in a community property area and I wholeheartedly agree with that.

 

[chrono]

What if you had both come into the marriage with nothing but one of you had spent the entire marriage working two jobs and doing everything that needed to be done wit the house and kids while the other played WoW and ate takeaway on your dime while refusing to work (just as a hypothetical situation).

Would you then think an equal split of assets would be fair after, say, a15 year marriage?

Because a judge might…

I would nip that in the bud and leave him right away if he did such a thing and was not willing to change. I would not wait 15 years for that to simmer. And being fnancially independent, I can easily walk away from such a situation.

 

[Ionysis]

No pre or post nups here. I'm very strongly of the opinion that no matter what your partner does, you didn't get where you are without them. We've both contributed less and more than the other during our nearly 2 decade union. I live in a community property area and I wholeheartedly agree with that.

I think that’s a very naïve view. I know a lot of people who definitely achieved success IN SPITE of their partners not because of them.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Where I live what's yours before the wedding and any inheritances are yours to keep in any case.

Either the assets gained during the union are considered joint and will be split 50/50 or all finances are considered separate. That's a simple tick in the wedding docs set up with the wedding paperwork ( legal wedding in courthouse is obligatory).

Makes the need for prenup more an exception than a rule if there's no business involved, where a divorce and the need to pay out a spouse would mean bankruptcy for the business

 

[Rhea]

I think that’s a very naïve view. I know a lot of people who definitely achieved success IN SPITE of their partners not because of them.

Maybe so. But if that's the case long term perhaps it's best to get out rather than becoming bitter, resentful and affecting those around you including your children.

For me it's not naive. I live in a community property area and we came into our relationship young and with similar resources (not much). A prenup would do no good, it'd be legally invalid.

I hate the idea of any person who works in the home, managing the household and persons not getting credit or money for that. Managing a household is hard work and deserves to be considered as contribution in cases of divorce.

 

[Lookinagain]

Where I live what's yours before the wedding and any inheritances are yours to keep in any case.

Either the assets gained during the union are considered joint and will be split 50/50 or all finances are considered separate. That's a simple tick in the wedding docs set up with the wedding paperwork ( legal wedding in courthouse is obligatory).

Makes the need for prenup more an exception than a rule if there's no business involved, where a divorce and the need to pay out a spouse would mean bankruptcy for the business

Well that certainly makes things nice and straight forward! Probably avoids a lot of messy, expensive court proceedings.

 

[kgizo]

I think that’s a very naïve view. I know a lot of people who definitely achieved success IN SPITE of their partners not because of them.

I don’t think that is naive at all. Like Rhea I live in a community property state. If people want to keep their finances separate then they can stay single or, if already married, get divorced.

 

[wildcat03]

I'm with @Ionysis. Privately, I have more respect for people who spend at least some portion of their lives working outside the home, even if not for very long, having to be suited and booted and at their desks looking alert by 8 am, experiencing challenges like bosses and co-workers, and knowing what it's like to have to produce, and generating taxes, than I do for people who have never worked. (I don't count people who take career breaks to have kids; I'm talking about people who have never had a job.)

That's one of the reasons I don't have much respect for Kate Middleton, who did absolutely nothing for many years between college and marriage, and who has consistently done a fraction of the engagements that all the other royals do, including those who are decades older than her. I think that never working outside the home is taking the easy way out, and it's just lazy, frankly. This is just my private opinion. As a very hard worker myself, this is how never-workers appear to me.

This isn't really about the kids issue. I know people who have never had kids and who don't have a real job. They mess about forming a company of one and appointing themselves CEO.

Funnily enough, I was reflecting the other day about how many people I know who don't have real jobs. It's a lot. After graduation, everybody was fast off the starting blocks, but in middle age, many seem to have lost their enthusiasm for work, regardless of whether they have kids or not. It's interesting.

I have to say that my "stay at home mom" time has been the hardest time of my life. I've never been a full time stay at home parent, but was lucky enough to get 12 weeks of maternity leave with my daughter. I also work atypical hours so have a lot of weekday parenting (and the pandemic intensified that, as we lost our childcare for 4 months). Man, I am just not the greatest full time parent. So, my hat is off to the full time parents out there.

 

[Lookinagain]

some community property states do allow pre-nups under certain circumstances and most require that they be fair. But they are not always totally unenforceable just because one lives in a community property state. It depends on the state and the terms of the agreement.