Please advise as to which princess is more ideal

[legalantz]

I am new to this forum and diamonds in general. Unfortunately, I want to propose to my girlfriend on Christmas day. I have done all the research I could possibly do, but need any suggestions anyone can generously offer between the two following diamonds. Thanks to all of you in advance.

Diamond 1
2.0
F
VS2
Depth: 71.9
Table: 69.7
Girdle: Stk
Polish: Ex
Sym: VG
Measurements: 6.87-6.81-4.96

Diamond 2
2.03
F
VS2
Depth: 72.9
Table: 68
Girdle: TN-M
Polish: VG
Sym: VG
Measurements: 7.22-6.93-5.05

 

[Daniel B]

Not too familiar with Princess cuts but here is a chart from the site that can guide you. I think you need to know more measurements on those particular stones to get a better idea.
Click Here

 

[researcher]

The numbers look promising for both stones. Do you have ideal scope images? What about crown or pavilion information?

 

[legalantz]

I currently only have the crown and pavilion numbers for Diamond 1. I will get this info for Diamond 2 tomorrow. Here are the numbers for Diamond 1.

Crown Angle 43.1
Crown height: 11.9%
Pavil Angle 59.8
Pavil Depth 56.7

By the way, I have looked all over for the best match for a princess based on the depth, table, crown and pavilion numbers, but have been unsuccessful. Can you please shed some light on this topic for me Researcher. Thanks.

 

[legalantz]

As for the Ideal Scope images - I requested them from UnionDiamond.com and was informed that they do not recognize nor utilize the ideal scope. Hence, I was told that they could not provide me with those images. This is part of the reason for my post - since it appears that I will have to rely heavily on the numbers.

 

[researcher]

I would use Whiteflash or another PS vendor then, as you will need the ideal scope images to examine light leakage. Your second stone can be found at:

http://www.whiteflash.com/princess/Princess-cut-diamond-1749758.htm

Remember that you get a PS member discount. My guess is the other stone you're considering is a "list stone" as well, so you should be able to get ideal scope images on both. Now, the additional numbers you provided look great, but you REALLY need an image to confirm the quality of the stone. If you have read all the PS posts regarding princess cuts you know that there are no hardfast rules for them, and that the numbers don't tell the whole story. For the best tutorial around, visit GOG princess tutorial.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/8/2005 1:14:11 AM
Author: legalantz
I currently only have the crown and pavilion numbers for Diamond 1. I will get this info for Diamond 2 tomorrow. Here are the numbers for Diamond 1.

Crown Angle 43.1
Crown height: 11.9%
Pavil Angle 59.8
Pavil Depth 56.7

Checking the AGS-charts with this limited information on this stone, this combination is not foreseen. Taking the closest combination that is on the charts, this would get an AGS-grade of 4 at best.

Live long,

 

[researcher]

Paul~
Can you explain why it would receive a grade of 4? Why does it differ so much from one like this?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/8/2005 1:37:28 PM
Author: researcher
Paul~
Can you explain why it would receive a grade of 4? Why does it differ so much from one like this?

Very good question, and indeed a very good observation.

The devil is in the detail, and with gemstones, most often in the pavilion.

In this stone, the P1-angle is 59.8°, which in combination with a calculated P2-angle of around 38.5° is not foreseen on the AGS-charts. Closest on the charts is a combo which is at best AGS-4.

In the GOG-stone, the P1-angle is around 58°, and this makes a hell of a difference. The combination with a slightly steeper crown takes care of AGS-0 here.

All in all, this stone could possibly be re-cut to AGS-0, but it will never stay above 2 Cts. I would estimate between 1.80 and 1.90

Live long,

 

[researcher]

Thank you so much for the info! There are just too many nuances with princess cuts now. Is there any way for consumers to get the AGS-charts for princesses or a formula to determine the best combinations until there are more AGS-0 stones on the market?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/8/2005 2:44:45 PM
Author: researcher
Thank you so much for the info! There are just too many nuances with princess cuts now. Is there any way for consumers to get the AGS-charts for princesses or a formula to determine the best combinations until there are more AGS-0 stones on the market?

Even using the charts does not give you a result. It only gives you the best possible result, and it differs whether you have a stone with 2, 3 or 4 chevron-facets.

Basically, the market situation is quite simple right now. Before AGS started grading princess-cuts this May, all princess-cuts were basically cut for weight, and more than half of them would be AGS-5 or lower. Anything AGS-3 or better would be a rarity.

After AGS introduced its system, you have a few manufacturers concentrating on them. This results in a small availability of AGS-0 and some 1''s. There basically is no middle-ground. If as a vendor, I would have GIA-graded princess-cuts that would be AGS-2 or 3 in the AGS-system, I would send them for an AGS-grading report, since the report will prove that the cut is clearly above the market-average of AGS-5 or lower.

Nobody would be so crazy to cut to AGS-0-specs, and then have the stone graded by GIA. It would be unwise of a consumer to expect that he can find an ideal princess-cut without the AGS-report.

Live long,

 

[legalantz]

Thanks Ideal Rock. I will have the pavil and crown numbers for Diamond two hopefully today, which I will post for your opinion. Where can I view for myself the AGS-Chart for a princess diamond?

 

[bcshoe]

Here's an idea: look at both of them and decide for yourself which one is more beautiful. Just because a diamond falls into the ideal cut range (the GIA is gritting their teeth with that one) doesn't mean it is more beautiful, it depends how well the brillianteer did with the 40 remaining facets when he finished cutting it! The most beautiful diamond is the ideal one......

 

[legalantz]

Here are the crown and pavil numbers for Diamond 2:

Crown height: 9.7
Crown angle: 34.4
Pavil height: 45.7
Pavil angle: 42.2

where would this diamond fall in terms of AGS grading?

Thanks.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/8/2005 2:10:52 AM
Author: legalantz

As for the Ideal Scope images - I requested them from UnionDiamond.com and was informed that they do not recognize nor utilize the ideal scope. Hence, I was told that they could not provide me with those images. This is part of the reason for my post - since it appears that I will have to rely heavily on the numbers.

Can they tell you how to interpret those numbers though ?

I am asking, because the only cut grading system out for princess cuts (AGS''s) is based on multiple angles. It may be that average crown height and pavilion depth goes some length to describe the brilliance of a princess cut. With the little I know about these, I can''t tell how informative thta is.

Another grading system - AGA''s, takes exatctly that information into account (see under ''Knowledge/ Fancy shapes'' down the menu on top of this page), but does not claim to qualify brilliance.

If there is some truth somewhere in the middle, no one cared to get into details on this forum (or elsewhere, as far as I know).

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/8/2005 7:42:00 PM
Author: legalantz
Here are the crown and pavil numbers for Diamond 2:

Crown height: 9.7
Crown angle: 34.4
Pavil height: 45.7
Pavil angle: 42.2

where would this diamond fall in terms of AGS grading?

Thanks.

Something is wrong with the figures. The total depth is 72.9%, while crown is 9.7% and pavilion 45.7%. This would mean a girdle of 17.5%. Impossible.

Also pavilion height and angle do not match.

Live long,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

They are nice guys at Union.
Give them an easy way out - ask them how the stones look thru the ideal-scope.

But you should not be pushing on price and pushing on info and service - the 2 tend to be mutually exclusive.

 

[legalantz]

Date: 12/9/2005 4:02:07 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 12/8/2005 7:42:00 PM
Author: legalantz
Here are the crown and pavil numbers for Diamond 2:

Crown height: 9.7
Crown angle: 34.4
Pavil height: 45.7
Pavil angle: 42.2

where would this diamond fall in terms of AGS grading?

Thanks.

Something is wrong with the figures. The total depth is 72.9%, while crown is 9.7% and pavilion 45.7%. This would mean a girdle of 17.5%. Impossible.

Also pavilion height and angle do not match.

Live long,

I''ve checked the Sarin Report for Diamond Two, and everything is as the report states, except depth is 72.6. For my information, how did you calculate girdle %?

If these are the numbers that I am given, and you are saying that it is impossible, what do you propose I do? If you can explain to me in more detail why you say it is impossible, then I can explain my reasoning to the seller when I speak to her. That would be of great assistance to me. Thanks.

 

[researcher]

Date: 12/9/2005 12:01:57 PM
Author: legalantz

Date: 12/9/2005 4:02:07 AM

Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 12/8/2005 7:42:00 PM

Author: legalantz

Here are the crown and pavil numbers for Diamond 2:


Crown height: 9.7

Crown angle: 34.4

Pavil height: 45.7

Pavil angle: 42.2


where would this diamond fall in terms of AGS grading?


Thanks.

Something is wrong with the figures. The total depth is 72.9%, while crown is 9.7% and pavilion 45.7%. This would mean a girdle of 17.5%. Impossible.


Also pavilion height and angle do not match.


Live long,

I''ve checked the Sarin Report for Diamond Two, and everything is as the report states, except depth is 72.6. For my information, how did you calculate girdle %?


If these are the numbers that I am given, and you are saying that it is impossible, what do you propose I do? If you can explain to me in more detail why you say it is impossible, then I can explain my reasoning to the seller when I speak to her. That would be of great assistance to me. Thanks.

That''s so odd. To calculate the girdle %, add together the crown and pavilion heights, then subtract from the total depth of the stone. With diamond 1, 11.9+56.7=68.6, and 71.9-68.6= a girdle of 3.3% (which is actually medium, not stk if my memory is correct).

 

[moremoremore]

I have a super duper top secret way to find an "ideal" princess stone.....Use a good vendor

Going off of numbers alone will not get you far...

I'd contact a few vendors and tell them what you're looking for...

I was recently emailing with Denise at White Flash regarding pendant stones and she was SO attentive and on the ball. Just a doll. Things didn't work out but I will definitely keep WF at the top of my list!!!! I did end up going with a stone Mark found for me. I just told him my budget, what my criteria was, and he found one for me. I trust his eyes and to bb e honest, haven't even seen the stone but am having it set. That makes my life quite easy Tons of other ps vendors can do the same. I've worked with GOG in the past too and they are also awesome...