Paraiba Tourmalines

[Barrett]

Tourmaline Lover and Loving Diamonds I defer to when it comes to paraibas. Like Chrono insinuated, there are paraibas and then there are PARAIBAS. First let me say that copper in tourmalines is not as rare as I used to think. It's actually found in more places than you would think. In at least 3 other Brazilian mines, other than Batlaha, mulungu, and alto dos quintos. It's found in tourmalines in Namibia from a certain mine(remember ebay seller with cuprians from namibia..we will get to that later) and many a other place around the world. They were even detecting copper in tourmalines 50 years before the Batalha strike. Warner (1935), Carobbi and Pieruccini (1946, 1947), and Staatz (1955)..all 4 mentioned or found amounts of copper in tourmaline but none found or related it to color(a chromophore). What made paraibas from Batalha take eht world by storm was the amount of copper in them which also acted as the coloring chromophore. When TL or LD mentiones the Brazilian paraibas they speak the truth as nothing comes anywhere close to the Batalha mine finds and you really have not seen a paraiba until you have seen a "heitorite". Reason being the CU content of those was anywhere from 1.6%-2.56% by weight(numbers are close but off the top of my head). Even the two other Brazilian paraiba deposits the Mulungu and the alto dos Quintos averaged only .60% by weight(once again numbers are close)..thats anywhere from 3-4 times less copper by weight than the Batalha(heitorite) finds. Thats the same with Nigerian and Mozambique material. Even the best Mozam material never approaches the Batalha Heitor mine material. You have never seen a paraiba until you have laid eyes on a Batalha paraiba.

Ld says "True Paraiba Tourmalines (ones that fit the criteria above) are severely lacking in the market place. If you find a good one, please be prepared that you will find it has an incredibly high price tag." This is exactly correct. Cuprians are a dime a dozen in the market place. If not for the finds in Batalha the Paraiba/cuprian tourmalines would just be a footnote in gem history. Many a tourmaline has copper in it but not many have suffcient amounts to give you that whopping glow/neon quality. Thta ebay seller from another thread that had cuprians labeled from Namibia..copper is found in tourmalines from namibia but none have copper than acts as a chromophore..ie. "trace amount".
She also says "I've seen hundreds of examples of stones marketed as "Paraiba" where in actual fact they're just very nice Cuprians." Also correct. Nice cuprians are a dime a dozen like I said above. You have to have a significant amount of copper to make it go BAM. I now believe that labs are adding fuel to the frenzy by detecting trace amount of copper in stones and labeling them cuprian/paraiba which technically is true but the amounts are so little(by weight) that either the copper is not acting as a chromophore or it's acting on the color in such little amounts. I also believe that many a paraiba/cuprian buyer thinks they see the "glow"/"neon" when they get there cuprian as I have seen it time and time again. They buy a paraiba and asume it has the glow/neon when in fact it's all in there head(my opinion as of late ). I would wager 90% have under <.05% copper content.

It's pretty much a once in a lifetime opportunity to buy a real deal blow your socks off true paraiba tourmaline..one that screams color. They are very rare and very expensive.
I believe the purples should be called purples and not paraibas. Purple is rare in itself and the Mn+3 acts as a damper to the Cu so negates any glow/neon. I am sure if enough copper is present then the purples can indeed glow but I don't know if i have ever seen one. They just look like purple tourmalines from any other location that produces purples does.

Until you have seen a Batalha mine paraiba you have never seen a "paraiba" They say to see the glow/neon the stone has to be cut. Well, the rough from the Heitor trends was just as neon/glowy as the cut stones. The crystals themselves glowed. I have yet to see any mozambique material( polished alluvial) that showed neon/glowy qualities in the rough. The bottom 2 pics that chrono posted(Lembeck and above) are what they should look like.

So tanzi, don't be suckered in by the name. Make sure and see them in person. If they are good or worth it you will know..they will look like what TL usually says...an internal battery is inside them

 

[Barrett]

Here is some Heitor mine paraibas in the rough..unheated natural stones. They were hand picked from a busted crystal(s) fragment in situ. This is all I can ever get my hands on/afford of the real deal "heitorite" material. Please note they are slightly larger than sand grain size. Thats about 1/4 of what I have all the same size. Thats a pen cap in the back.

 

[RockHugger]

When I was at the show last weekend, a dealer had some huuuuge Brazilian paraibas. They were absolutely amazing! The largest was like 50 cts, and was 98k....a great price for the size and color actually! If I had that kind of cash I would have swept it up!

I will post pics of it later tonight!

 

[T L]

Amguy
You give me too much credit on my knowledge of Paraiba tourmalines. While I have seen Brazilian material in person, I am by no means an expert on them. I also think the gold content on the Brazilian material has something to do with their intense color, but don't quote me on that. I have to research that some more.

 

[T L]

When I was at the show last weekend, a dealer had some huuuuge Brazilian paraibas. They were absolutely amazing! The largest was like 50 cts, and was 98k....a great price for the size and color actually! If I had that kind of cash I would have swept it up!

I will post pics of it later tonight!

You have to wonder, because that is a good price. Many people sell paraibas as Brazilian, but you really should have the AGL origin papers to back up the claim. They do have inclusions specific to that area. I'm not saying that the dealer you saw was selling African material in disguise as Brazilian, but I just wanted to point out that this happens all the time. Therefore, for anyone with the cash that is seriously considering a true Brazilian piece, they should get documentation from the AGL.

I will also say that some African material is very neon and glowy and overlaps some Brazilian material for quality of color. Therefore, it is eady to disguise these as true Brazilian.

Lastly, one should not pay a premium just because a stone is from Brazil. Brazil has it's share of not so great cuprians too, so beware of sellers trying to sell you an authentic Brazilian cuprian for $100K/ct and it looks rather washed out. That's just wrong. I caught a dealer tyring to sell my friend Brazilian material that was far from top quality,and looked rather African, for $25K to $50K/ct. They were highly included too!!

 

[Barrett]

I highly doubt they were brazilian, hugger..only 2 have ever been larger than 50cts from brazil and both were valued between 25 million and 125 million. Of course it could always be one of those with "trace amount" or insufficent amounts of copper but still in a detectable quantity to be able to slap the name on it

 

[LD]

Amguy - great to see you back! Thank you for your kind words and I couldn't agree with you more. The purple ones I've seen (and own) do glow but I'd be hard pressed to say they were neon. More like a really lovely example of purple Tourmaline with a bit of ooomph thrown in! Certainly, they do look good in dim lighting (and have a mini internal light) but it's not like the neon Paraibas that have a full chandelier going on!

TL - interesting about the gold content. Strangely, I haven't seen it noted on any lab reports. I believe that the Mozambique material also can contain it BUT like copper it may well vary in amount, so more in the Brazilian. It's weird but you always see copper mentioned and gold infrequently when researching Paraibas. Do you think it's because it's not the separating or defining factor?

RH - Like TL, I'd be highly suspicious that the material the dealer had was Brazilian - especially if it was as good as you say. That's serious museum quality. If you look at Paraiba International, they've got a 23ct cab, highly included, ok colour (not stunning) but from Brazil and it's $33k http://www.paraibainternational.com/product_info.php?product=375 So if the one you saw was phenomenal .... the figures don't stack up. Unfortunately, I get highly suspicious because I know how little there is out there. This sounds like a case of "let's call this Cuprian a Paraiba"!

 

[T L]

Amguy - great to see you back! Thank you for your kind words and I couldn't agree with you more. The purple ones I've seen (and own) do glow but I'd be hard pressed to say they were neon. More like a really lovely example of purple Tourmaline with a bit of ooomph thrown in! Certainly, they do look good in dim lighting (and have a mini internal light) but it's not like the neon Paraibas that have a full chandelier going on!

LD,
Interesting that your purple glows. My violet does not glow, it reminds me of a purple spinel actually, and has some grey I showed it to some dealers and they thought it would heat to neon blue, but I have kept it as is. It's six carats, and I would be horrified if it cracked in the heating process. The GIT memo confirms copper in the stone and it has a needle indicative of the origin. I do have the "Gems and Gemology" issue on African Cuprians, and it is identical in color to many of the cuprians they were able to heat to neon blue. It is rather tempting to heat it. I have heard that the more "grapey" or reddish purples do not turn neon blue, and actually fade, but I don't know how true this is.

 

[LD]

Amguy - great to see you back! Thank you for your kind words and I couldn't agree with you more. The purple ones I've seen (and own) do glow but I'd be hard pressed to say they were neon. More like a really lovely example of purple Tourmaline with a bit of ooomph thrown in! Certainly, they do look good in dim lighting (and have a mini internal light) but it's not like the neon Paraibas that have a full chandelier going on!

LD,
Interesting that your purple glows. My violet does not glow, it reminds me of a purple spinel actually, and has some grey I showed it to some dealers and they thought it would heat to neon blue, but I have kept it as is. It's six carats, and I would be horrified if it cracked in the heating process. The GIT memo confirms copper in the stone and it has a needle indicative of the origin. I do have the "Gems and Gemology" issue on African Cuprians, and it is identical in color to many of the cuprians they were able to heat to neon blue. It is rather tempting to heat it. I have heard that the more "grapey" or reddish purples do not turn neon blue, and actually fade, but I don't know how true this is.

TL - that sounds about right because if you think about it, the grey in the violet would potentially "cool" a glow. If you look at mine above it looks very much like a purple sapphire doesn't it? It has more red in it I think which might be why it glows - although I have to say that it's not a glow like the blues and greens, it's more a subtle "I'm here" even in dim lighting! Please don't be tempted to heat your stone - can you imagine if it cracked and then didn't change colour? OMG you'd be heartbroken. Mind you, I guess you'd potentially have a nice pair of earrings! I'm not tempted to heat my purple and even less so now that it may heat to white!

 

[LD]

Ok, here's an interesting one for you! This is an 18ct stone that as you can see, the report says it can be called "Paraiba Tourmaline". Is it? Well, it has a great colour, it certainly glows. It is neon. BUT and this is the big BUT, does it scream colour? When I compare it with my others, I'll be honest and say "no". Instead of screaming it sort of does a little yell!

If I had no others to compare it to would I think differently? Probably.

It's a very nice (if included) stone and in this size I doubt whether I'd ever get the same again so for me, it's not an issue. However, I hope this demonstrates that you probably need to see a ton of good/bad/ugly to be able to differentiate (or be very picky)!

 

[RockHugger]

Ok, of course the pictures dont do them justice...but they were beautiful! They were a neon green blue (more blue then in the pictures..more like a neon color of the trade person wording above) and very clean.

 

[LD]

Personally, I wouldn't class those as Paraibas. Very nice Cuprians, yes. Sorry!

 

[RockHugger]

Like I said, you have to see them in person. They lit up the room.

 

[Tanzigrrl]

Hi, All,
Thank you so very much for all of your helpful advice. I really benefitted from all of the helpful information. I enjoyed the gem show, but there was only 1, count with me O.N.E. "Paraiba" and it had no "light." It was small, very small, just kind of "windex" blue but with no "life" to it at all. The price was reasonable, but even though it was marked Paraiba Tourmaline (From Brazil), I had more than some doubts. So, I didn't buy it. I didn't buy anything. I was hoping to come home with something fun, but no dice. I am feeling rather convinced that a real Paraiba is "out of my league" so to speak. I'm not confident enough to be able to select a "real" one or even a "good" specimen, at that. So, I'm going to save that for the advanced members of our board and I'll go back to studying for my GG.

Thank you all, so much! I appreciate all of your help!

 

[LD]

Hi, All,
Thank you so very much for all of your helpful advice. I really benefitted from all of the helpful information. I enjoyed the gem show, but there was only 1, count with me O.N.E. "Paraiba" and it had no "light." It was small, very small, just kind of "windex" blue but with no "life" to it at all. The price was reasonable, but even though it was marked Paraiba Tourmaline (From Brazil), I had more than some doubts. So, I didn't buy it. I didn't buy anything. I was hoping to come home with something fun, but no dice. I am feeling rather convinced that a real Paraiba is "out of my league" so to speak. I'm not confident enough to be able to select a "real" one or even a "good" specimen, at that. So, I'm going to save that for the advanced members of our board and I'll go back to studying for my GG.

Thank you all, so much! I appreciate all of your help!

Sounds to me like you've seriously under-estimated yourself! Just read again what you did! You identified that the gem you were looking at had "no life" and you said you had "doubts". Well, you're absolutely 100% spot on. You will KNOW without a shadow of a doubt when you see one. The sad fact is the gem you were looking at probably had the colour of a nice Paraiba BUT lacked glow and neon SO that means it's NOT a Paraiba. Even though you haven't seen any, your knowledge was enough to stop and make you evaluate and come to the right conclusion. I reckon you'd be confident enough to select a "real" one.

Like Amguy said he's seen tons of people say "look at my PT" when they're clearly just nice Cuprians - and I have too. You haven't fallen into that trap. I saw hundreds before I saw the one that I knew would, without a shadow of a doubt, be deemed a Paraiba. Within those hundreds there were ones that I thought were Paraibas and I would have sworn they were but but that went out of the window when I saw my first "real deal"! It was a really steep learning curve that one!

Unfortunately years ago (and I know TL agrees), there was an abundance of fantastic PT on the market at such great prices it's heartbreaking to think of it now. Over the years, there's been less and less and less and the price has shot up. When I think what I could have bought it makes me cry. Don't give up. If you save your pennies and look long and hard, something will come along.

 

[Tanzigrrl]

That's very sweet of you, LD, thank you for that.

 

[m76steve]

to nashville-this is a pic of a brazillian paraiba tourmaline-stone is like a purebreed & does have papers of origin-windex blue with a slight tinge of green-the pic was taken to get the most color at an angle-stone is 2.2 cts and marked flawless-steve....

 

[Barrett]

Some of the finest paraiba rough/crystal I have ever seen..really doesn't get any better than this. Heitor mine crystal. The rough crystal is a Wendell Wilson photo and from his collection and the cut stone(no weight), which looks like it could have been cut from this rough(it's not), is a Van Pelt photo from Michael Scott's collection. This is what a paraiba tourmaline is. This is what blew the gem world away by storm. 99% of the rest doesn't hold a candle and pales in comparison. If not for these crystals from batalha, like I said above, cuprian tourmalines would just be a footnote in gem history.

 

[LD]

OMG

 

[minousbijoux]

I'll take those amazing crystals as is, please, just put them on my tab...

 

[chrono]

Am Guy,
Now THAT's what the neon glow really looks like (garish) and I'm sure even then, it isn't fully captured on camera.

 

[T L]

Am Guy,
Now THAT's what the neon glow really looks like (garish) and I'm sure even then, it isn't fully captured on camera.

And in person, it looks a thousand times better too! You can see these stones across a room. They seem to have their own internal electric source.

 

[Art Nouveau]

Amethystguy: Wow! Thanks for posting the amazing photo. Those crystals and the cut stone are perfect examples of the 'real' windex blue Brazilian paraibas. Even the best copper bearing tourmaline from Mozambique or Nigeria can even come close. Unfortunately, the 'real' paraibas are so rare and so expensive, most people are priced out of the market. Wish I had bought one years ago when they were first discovered. Over the last couple of years, I have seen two 3-carat stones almost as good going fot $30,000+ per carat. Last year, I was offered a 2.3 carat completely included, very poorly cut, but very glowy greenish blue stone for $16,000. I did not buy it because I thought the price was to high for such an included stone. I saw the dealer recently and he told me he sold it for $60,000!

AN

 

[Barrett]

Well done Tanzigirl on not choosing the lifeless stone. Don't let that name suck you in. Even though it had the windex color which many people attribute to the "neon/glow" you were not. Well done!
I like this very unscientific technique when viewing paraibas online or by picture. Please note that they should viewed in person like TL and LD said to get the full effect. Works best with the windex and blue-green kinds..the greens can be done but not as easy and the dark blues not really. Look for the neon/glow of the stones that paraibas have. I highlighted it in red and should be looked for as a clue when deciding to buy a paraiba online...as a clue to help. That top one being a mozambique stone very worthy of the name paraiba at $65,000 (africagems)..you can see the body color peeking out in between the 2 circles and to the right of the center circle.

You can see in all the pics in most areas where I haven't circled you can see the body color of the stone. Where the light has bounced into the stone and back out properly is when the "glow/neon" comes out. Thats why they say the rough needs to be cut to show the neon/glow properties of it. The original Brazilian showed it even in rough form. Pleaswe note: this in now way denotes proper ID or a "good" way to choice paraiba by a picture..it's more for fun.

 

[Barrett]

Here is Maurice Oppenheimer's Brazilian paraiba in rough and cut form cut with the cutting being done by Roger Dery. In the rough form you can see where light has entered the stone and was able to bounce around to show off some of the "neon/"glow" qualities. In the cut form you can see where I highlighted the neon/glow showing up. The reason it's not showing more, which i may be wrong, is due to the fact that Roger doesn't flood his stones with light when taking pictures..similar to the way I take pictures by using reflected light. If he was to shine direct light on this stone i am sure it would glow right up

 

[Barrett]

This is what I call the "sheep is wolf's clothing" stone. This is the stone that fools most people who buy paraibas on ebay or online. This is indeed a mozambique cuprian tourmaline. What people confuse for "glow/neon" is just the normal body color of the stone..same color that can be reproduced by non-cuprian afghan or anywhere tourmaline. That nice pool blue or slightly under vivid blue/blue-green makes people think they have a good cuprian when all it is is the natural color or body color of the stone. Even with this first stone it may have some copper acting on it but I believe people sometimes read more into the gems body color(pool blue/blue-green) than they do of the said neon/glow attributes of a paraiba.

The second one is an ebay stone..don't know if it's even a tourmaline..may be a apatite but will fool many a folk who think that blue color is the glow/neon.

The third one is a 29ct ebay stone also..so far it's bid up to $346..once again I think the body color or natural facet light reflection color is being looked at as the neon/glow by uninformed individuals. Please remember that it may be totally different in person as a picture in no way conveys what may be seen in person. The brazilian material glows even in nrough form as can be seen by the rough I posted and I have seen many a other brazilian rough that does the same thing so in cut form it should show even by the simplest camera methods...unless of course it's not a good paraiba The last one, the 29ct one, is a real crappy cuprian but a 29ct tourmaline of any color that clean("flawess") is still a decent stone

 

[Barrett]

Of course like I have said a couple times this is just from glancing at pics and in no way should be used to make educated decisions when buying paraibas. I am sure some non cuprian ones can be manipulated to show the same effect..LOL
It will help when pics are all you have to at least form some opinion on said stone.

 

[Barrett]

Some more Batalha paraiba crystals..you can see the "glow/neon" in certain parts of these crystals just like I highlighted in the above photos.
Top left scepter and bottom right crystal is a Van Pelt photo, Michael Scoot collection. Top right as well as lower left and center one is a Wendell Wilson photo, Brian Cook specimen.

 

[LD]

OMG Amguy - you're killing me. I didn't know I could dribble for so long and so hard!

 

[Barrett]

As of late I have been considering the greens, purples, and violets as not worthy of the term paraiba. Here is why: We all know that Cu+2 is the acting coloring chromophore in so called paraiba tourmalines..if the tourmalie was just colored by Cu+2 alone it would be that fantastic glowy turquoise blue to blue color every one loves. When you trend towards the green colors you are incorporating Mn and Ti into the lattice and when you move towards the violets, and purples you are adding Mn to the lattice. When you are buying paraibas you are buying for the copper but when you get these other transition elements into the fold they sort of muddle and displace the y-site which could have been a good place for the copper molecules. So when you have say an Mn+2 molecule in place of a Cu+2 molecule you are downgrading the effect of the Cu to produce the "neon"/"glow". As an example: say you have a green paraiba? doesn't really make sense..the Cu+2 is producing a turquoise or blue color stone but you have a green one in you hand. Where is the color the copper molecules are imparting on the stone? Don't see any blue just green or purple for that matter. If you have a blue-green stone or a green-blue stone then you are getting some effect from the copper molecules but as you move closer to the green end you get less paraiba-like. Cu(copper)=turquoise(blue)="neon"/"glow" Less blue/turquoise in the stone = less copper acting as a chromophore = less "glow"/"neon" effect. Of course many other variables are involved as well