paraiba tourmaline

[Harriet]

LD,
Please re-read my carefully worded post above.
"Top quality" Paraibas are scarce, but extant.

Harriet - I'm sorry but it's late in the UK and I do not intend to read every carefully worded sentence, interpret nuances and then wonder what on earth you're saying.
My post is succinct and straightforward. Perhaps, you should give me the benefit of doubt and read it in the morning.

I think we have a difference of opinion and that's fine - we normally do.
It is fine by me too.

I have simply given my own opinion bearing in mind what's available on the market at the moment and my own hands on experience as somebody who has spent the last 10-15 or so years buying and owning it.
I have only been seriously collecting for a mere 3 years, but that does not mean that I am ignorant about the market nor that my experience should be discounted.

You can agree with it or not. I'm really not bothered.
If that is the case, please stop taking issue with my posts. Let us chalk it up to a difference of opinion and shake hands on it.

The point is that the OP can make his mind up after reading this thread and will have different points of views to choose from.

 

[colorluvr]

Is Pariaba material the only one you want or would material from Rio Grand do Norte, Brazil be acceptable?

For those of you who are familiar with the AGL prestige reports on Paraiba tourmaline - are they able to determine which part of Brazil the tourmaline came from? If so, then that means that the chemical composition varies from one mine in Brazil to the other?

I'm trying to learn here, so please be patient with my lack of knowledge on the subject. If AGL does not establish the value of a stone, then how would the report of a "real Paraiba" that glows like you state be different from a report of a "pretty dang good looking, same color but not as glowly " cuprian tourmaline be reported - what I am trying to figure out is how do they present "glow" on a report.

If the two stones (excellent Paraiba) and (gorgeous, but not quite excellent cuprian) are the same color/tone/clarity - how do they differ in the report - I'm just not understanding what on the report states the amount of glow. Do you include a percent of copper? Is the higher the copper content the more glow the stone has.

Sorry if these questions seem silly, but I really wanting to understand.

 

[Harriet]

Oh Harriet, you do make me laugh! There has got to be a good story behind the only portuguese expression you know.

I would add only that I have three cuprians - two windex blue, and one windex blue green Obviously, the windex blues are much more valuable and right now are in the safe deposit box with all their expensive cousins. However, I have this greenish blue one that, because it was not nearly as expensive, I wear. While it does not have the classic, full-on neon, it does glow and people comment on it frequently. Its probably 3+ carats (can't remember) and my favorite thing is at night when I'm in low light and I look down at my hand and its almost like its lit from within. No other stones I have do that (except for the cuprians in the bank). My point is its pretty and glowey, even if its not top quality due to its color, so you should look around to make sure that the top of the line is really necessary for you.

No good story, I'm afraid. Just an easily startled Brazilian friend.

Don't worry, minousbijoux. For me, colour always comes first. Unfortunately, with Paraibas, colour is correlated with origin. Thanks for the advice.

 

[LD]

Colorluvr

It's not a silly question at all. Glow (whilst it determines good from bad - and have a look at many photos on this forum and on the net to see a good selection) isn't commented on at all on lab reports.

Unless this is out of date then this article explains it quite well. I'll see if I've got anything else saved that might help.

Typically however, the main difference on a lab report is if somebody requests that the locality of a gemstone is identified. Locality isn't mentioned on all lab reports and can be an option.

http://www.atggems.com/Paraiba_Nomenclature.htm

 

[Harriet]

For those of you who are familiar with the AGL prestige reports on Paraiba tourmaline - are they able to determine which part of Brazil the tourmaline came from? If so, then that means that the chemical composition varies from one mine in Brazil to the other?

I'm trying to learn here, so please be patient with my lack of knowledge on the subject. If AGL does not establish the value of a stone, then how would the report of a "real Paraiba" that glows like you state be different from a report of a "pretty dang good looking, same color but not as glowly " cuprian tourmaline be reported - what I am trying to figure out is how do they present "glow" on a report.

If the two stones (excellent Paraiba) and (gorgeous, but not quite excellent cuprian) are the same color/tone/clarity - how do they differ in the report - I'm just not understanding what on the report states the amount of glow. Do you include a percent of copper? Is the higher the copper content the more glow the stone has.

Sorry if these questions seem silly, but I really wanting to understand.

Your questions are not silly.

The reports I have read only state "Origin: Brazil."

AGL will give a "Colour Rating," if one so chooses. That may give some indication of the level of "glow."

No, the report does not state the amount of copper in the gem.

Hope this helps.

 

[Treenbean]

Hi CL
Nigerian cuprian tourmaline contains lead, Brazilian material does not.

Mozambique cuprian tourmaline sometimes contains lead and sometimes it is lead free, but it also contains differing amounts of copper, magnesium, and bismuth.

addition: It is believed that the lead is one factor that makes the Nigerian material not as glowing

 

[LD]

Here's the article in full that I linked to above:

The Association of Gemmological Laboratories (AGL) in Japan currently specifies that a blue-to­green tourmaline showing the characteristic "neon" color due to copper can only be called "Paraiba" as a trade name on an identification report when the stone is confirmed to be from Brazil. AGL allows the "Paraiba" name to be used for tourmalines from Rio Grande do Norte (Mulungu and Alto dos Quintos), since separating them from Mina da Batalha stones is difficult, and material imported into Japan is a mix­ture of tourmalines from both states. This policy is consistent with that advocated by most gem dealers who are handling the Brazilian "Paraiba" tourmaline. However, as supported by the research reported in this article, Cu-bearing tourmalines from Brazil, Nigeria, and Mozambique are difficult to distinguish from one another by standard gemological testing methods. Therefore, AGL and the Laboratory Manual Harmonization Committee (LMHCJ decided to reconsider the nomenclature for "Paraiba" tour­maline. The LMHC consists of representatives from the AGTA-Gemological Testing Center (U.S.), CIS­G (Italy), GAAJ Laboratory (Japan), GIA Labora­tory (U.S.), GIT-Gem Testing Laboratory (Thailand), Gubelin Gem Lab (Switzerland), and SSEF Swiss Gemmological Institute (Switzerland). At the LMHC's October 2005 meeting in Lucerne, and at the February 2006 Gemstone Industry & Laboratory Conference in Tucson, the LMHC group agreed to define "Paraiba" tourmaline as a blue ("neon" blue, or violet), bluish green to greenish blue, or green elbaite tourmaline containing Cu and Mn, similar to the material that was originally mined in Paraiba, Brazil; any "Paraiba" tourmaline, regardless of its geographic origin, shall be described with the follow­ing wording on a gem identification report:
■ Species: Elbaite
■Variety: Paraiba tourmaline
■Comment: The name "Paraiba tourmaline" is derived from the locality where it was first mined in Brazil.
■Origin: Origin determination is optional
This policy is consistent with current CIBJO practice, which defines "Paraiba" tourmaline as hav­ing a "green to blue color caused by copper," but no definition is made according to locality. Thus, CIBJO also considers "Paraiba" tourmaline to be a general variety or trade name.

At present, AGL will fall into step with the rec­ommendation of the LMHC group, and will disclose a new nomenclature for "Paraiba" tourmaline later this year.

CONCLUSION

Since the initial discovery of magnificent brightly colored tourmaline at Mina da Batalha in Brazil's Paraiba State, Cu-bearing elbaite has also been mined from Brazil's Rio Grande do Norte State (Mulungu and Alto dos Quintos), as well as in Nigeria and Mozambique. Overlap in the gemologi­cal properties and chemical compositions of tourma­line from these localities makes it difficult to distin­guish their geographic origins with the testing tech­niques available in most gemological laboratories.

The common presence of yellowish brown nee­dle-like growth tubes in the Nigerian tourmalines is suggestive of their origin. Also, native copper was most commonly seen in the Nigerian and a few Brazilian tourmalines, but thus far it has not been documented in stones from Mozambique.

This study has shown that chemical fingerprinting by the LA-ICP-MS technique is useful for distinguish­ing Cu-bearing tourmaline from the various localities. Geochemical plots of CuO+MnO versus Ga+Pb, CuO+MnO versus PbjBe, and Mg-Zn-Pb reveal that quantitative data for these elements may permit a reliable distinction of Brazilian stones from their counterparts mined in Nigeria and Mozambique. The Nigerian tourmalines contained larger amounts of the trace elements Ga, Ge, and Pb, whereas Brazilian tourmalines were enriched in Mg, Zn, and Sb. The Mozambique samples showed high contents of Be, Sc, Ga, and Pb, and Bi, but a lack of Mg.

Although the major laboratories have agreed to use Parafba tourmaline as a trade name for blue ("neon" blue, or violet), bluish green to greenish blue, or green Cu- and Mn-bearing elbaites, some labs may wish to provide the additional service of establishing the precise country of origin. On the basis of the research completed to date, such a dis­tinction usually requires quantitative chemical analysis. As further discoveries are made in other parts of the world, additional research will be need­ed to reconfirm the criteria or establish new ones.

The above is an excerpt from Gems and Gemology Magazine, Volume XLII, Spring 2006, entitle: "Paraiba"-Type Copper-Bearing Tourmaline from Brazil, Nigeria and Mozambique: Chemical Fingerprinting by LA-ICP-MS

 

[m76steve]

treenbean-years ago there was reports that the brazillian stuff had a percentage of gold within the gems-there was thought of crushing the rough from paraiba to extract the gold content-this was dropped cause of the large amount of material that would have been destroyed for a tiny amount of the yellow stuff-good thinkin-me...

 

[colorluvr]

LD, Harriet and TB - Thank you for your respones..

So I guess if someone gets an AGL prestige report that states Brazil as country of origin and tone/color is in the very good to excellent category, then you'd still have to take it (and the report) to a good appraiser to get a value.

Learning a bit more every day..........

 

[m76steve]

LD, Harriet and TB - Thank you for your respones..

So I guess if someone gets an AGL prestige report that states Brazil as country of origin and tone/color is in the very good to excellent category, then you'd still have to take it (and the report) to a good appraiser to get a value.

Learning a bit more every day..........

AAAHHHH MEN! GOODNIGHT TRACIE-me....

 

[LD]

LD, Harriet and TB - Thank you for your respones..

So I guess if someone gets an AGL prestige report that states Brazil as country of origin and tone/color is in the very good to excellent category, then you'd still have to take it (and the report) to a good appraiser to get a value.

Learning a bit more every day..........

Yes, absolutely - but to an appraiser who has seen a lot so they can give you an accurate appraisal. (Lab reports do not contain a value). Without a lab report, the appraiser would be assigning a value blind and there's no way they could be sure the gem contains the correct chemical composition and so whether it could/could not be classified as such.

Just so you know, if you do a quick internet search and put in the words Paraiba Tourmaline you'll find a nice thread posted elsewhere that actually discusses how a gem can have the correct chemical composition of Brazilian material but the colour is weak and pale and therefore would only be worth several hundreds of $ per carat rather than thousands.

 

[Harriet]

Hi,
I would say that whether or not an appraisal is required depends on a number of factors. E.g. Do you intend to insure the stone? Do you trust that the vendor is giving you a fair deal?

 

[LD]

Hi,
I would say that whether or not an appraisal is required depends on a number of factors. E.g. Do you intend to insure the stone? Do you trust that the vendor is giving you a fair deal?

In the US can you insure a gemstone without a valuation from an appraiser? In the UK most insurance policies only cover jewellery up to £x (very small amounts that vary). The only way of ensuring a pay-out in the event of loss, damage, theft etc., is to have a full appraisal (with photograph) and accompanying lab reports where possible. Even then, most insurance companies will insist that the valuation is carried out by a company they recognise and not just a high street jeweller because they recognise that not all appraisals are equal. For jewellery items they sometimes even stipulate that each piece (if over £x value) must be checked by a jeweller for wear/tear for loose claws etc etc. A friend of mine is a gem collector and works for an insurance company. She's told me that the majority of appraisals from non-approved appraisers are challenged!

 

[colorluvr]

Hi,
I would say that whether or not an appraisal is required depends on a number of factors. E.g. Do you intend to insure the stone? Do you trust that the vendor is giving you a fair deal?

Which lends to my reason for all of these hypothetical questions. Being a total novice at this, I would have no idea if the vendor is giving me a fair deal without the lab report and the appraisal.

I pretty much know I will never own a $5000 per carat stone. I also know that I am not going to get a $1000 per ct stone for $400 on ebay.... but there is a HUGE gray area in between where a lot of "really nice" but not superior stones fall and that is the area that I would persue.

Thanks again for all of your input, it has been most informative. I can look at all of the Paraiba threads on here all day long, but unless I see several stones in person, that I KNOW are correctly valued, I (personally) can't tell the difference between a stone that should be $1000 ct or one that should be $200 per carat.... sigh....

 

[Harriet]

LD,
If one wants replacement-value insurance (as opposed to general coverage under, say, homeowner's insurance), an appraisal is required.

 

[colorluvr]

A friend of mine is a gem collector and works for an insurance company. She's told me that the majority of appraisals from non-approved appraisers are challenged!

Sometimes even WITH an appraisal and a picture AND a replacement value policy, they will challenge the value and you are pretty much SOL. No, I did not have a lab report - didn't even know they existed back then - just knew about appraisals on colored gemstones.

I took the ring to an appraiser, got an appraisal, paid my insurance company premiums for years, and then got offered an offendingly (is that even a word??? I was VERY offended - how's that) low amount of money from the insurance company.

They took the "specs" to their "gem stone ring guy" and he gave them a value that he could make "a similar ring" which was WAY below what it was worth and the appraisal value and offered me that.... PERIOD.... nothing I could do.

Live and learn....

 

[LD]

A friend of mine is a gem collector and works for an insurance company. She's told me that the majority of appraisals from non-approved appraisers are challenged!

Sometimes even WITH an appraisal and a picture AND a replacement value policy, they will challenge the value and you are pretty much SOL. No, I did not have a lab report - didn't even know they existed back then - just knew about appraisals on colored gemstones.

I took the ring to an appraiser, got an appraisal, paid my insurance company premiums for years, and then got offered an offendingly (is that even a word??? I was VERY offended - how's that) low amount of money from the insurance company.

They took the "specs" to their "gem stone ring guy" and he gave them a value that he could make "a similar ring" which was WAY below what it was worth and the appraisal value and offered me that.... PERIOD.... nothing I could do.

Live and learn....

I am so sorry you had to go through this but am not surprised. That's why I have nearly all of my potentially valuable stones sent to a lab and then go to an appraisal company that is very rarely challenged (in the UK). I also photograph my gemstones from nearly all angles and keep receipts etc etc.

Photos are also key to getting an accurate pay out sometimes. I lost an inherited diamond ring (stupidity - and a long boring story) but basically the insurers wanted to see a photo of me wearing the ring!!!! Unbelieveable!

As you say, live and learn!

 

[chrono]

Colorluvr
AGL does not establish a value or determine the value of any gemstone but they will give their opinion on the quality in their Prestige report with the quality option. Their Prestige reports come in many levels and the quality option is in one of those levels. Testing and opinion of origin is also an option you can purchase to be included in your report. I’m sorry about your prior insurance experience but this is another reason why I would not insure without a lab report. Appraisals are for value but a lab report defines exactly what it is and sometimes includes the gemstone quality so there are no gray areas for the insurance company to disagree with. What you went through is, sadly, also common in the colourless/white diamond world as well.

LD,
Thank you for the except; I know that the labs can determine origin but suspected they are not able to nail down exactly which mine the tourmaline is from (whether it is the Batalha or later mines).

 

[Gailey]

No idea about the quality of what these people are like to deal with, but they are Brazillian, and they had nice look Paraiba last time I looked. You need to scroll down the main page and click on their Flickr link.

http://www.dbprecious.com/

 

[Harriet]

Bring 'em on, J! The more, the merrier.

 

[Gailey]

Make sure you get a look at their stuff at Tucson H.

 

[Harriet]

D'uh.

 

[TakingthePlunge]

I posted this awhile back in another paraiba thread but its still for sale

http://www.swalagemtraders.com/search-gems/detail.php?pid=2219&cPage=3&sort=&perpage=8&cat=&display1=1&display2=&display3=0&category=14&variety=&key=&match=&indicate=&reserve_type=&pagefrom=search

 

[Harriet]

Hi,
I would say that whether or not an appraisal is required depends on a number of factors. E.g. Do you intend to insure the stone? Do you trust that the vendor is giving you a fair deal?

Which lends to my reason for all of these hypothetical questions. Being a total novice at this, I would have no idea if the vendor is giving me a fair deal without the lab report and the appraisal.

I pretty much know I will never own a $5000 per carat stone. I also know that I am not going to get a $1000 per ct stone for $400 on ebay.... but there is a HUGE gray area in between where a lot of "really nice" but not superior stones fall and that is the area that I would persue.

Thanks again for all of your input, it has been most informative. I can look at all of the Paraiba threads on here all day long, but unless I see several stones in person, that I KNOW are correctly valued, I (personally) can't tell the difference between a stone that should be $1000 ct or one that should be $200 per carat.... sigh....

Hi colorluvr,

The only advice I can give is to see as many gems in person as possible (shows like Intergem are good places to start). Also, unless a stone really screams at you, be patient about purchasing. You don't want quantity, you want quality. With enough poking around, you may not even need AGL's Color Rating option, for instance. You'll be able to judge for yourself. Oh, and build relationships with vendors who seem trustworthy. Rick Martin of www.artcutgems.com held my hand when I first began collecting. He is still my mentor. Hope this helps.

 

[colorluvr]

I posted this awhile back in another paraiba thread but its still for sale

http://www.swalagemtraders.com/search-gems/detail.php?pid=2219&cPage=3&sort=&perpage=8&cat=&display1=1&display2=&display3=0&category=14&variety=&key=&match=&indicate=&reserve_type=&pagefrom=search

Oh, but if the budget would allow.....

 

[colorluvr]

The only advice I can give is to see as many gems in person as possible (shows like Intergem are good places to start). Also, unless a stone really screams at you, be patient about purchasing. You don't want quantity, you want quality. With enough poking around, you may not even need AGL's Color Rating option, for instance. You'll be able to judge for yourself. Oh, and build relationships with vendors who seem trustworthy. Rick Martin of www.artcutgems.com held my hand when I first began collecting. He is still my mentor. Hope this helps.

No Intergem shows within 200 miles of where I live

 

[Pandora II]

LD - do you mind sharing who you use for appraisals?

 

[LD]

LD - do you mind sharing who you use for appraisals?

No problem at all. I use Safeguard. I'm sure you're familiar with them? They're the appraisal arm of the Birmingham Assay Office. You can send gems there or meet with valuers when they are in your area. They're pricey but I've got my money's worth with them. Unfortunately I've had a number of claims over the years and thankfully the insurance companies have been happy that I had their appraisals. They also, in my experience, don't assign stupid inflated valuations (although they are for replacement of course). They can also arrange testing of gemstones but have limits eg can't test for BE but they can organise for the stone to be sent to Switzerland (I think) if necessary. They have labs in Birmingham and London that have different testing machines so one of my stones went on a UK roadtrip!

Having said all that, their appraisers are very good (I think there are only 6 for the whole of the UK) but I used the same one consistently who really really really knows her stuff and if she isn't familiar with something she always went away and did research. Unfortunately she's now left but I've kept in touch with her.

BTW the garnets arrived (with a little bag of freebies). They're pretty but the jury's out! I don't know why but they're not quite what I expected. From the photos and the description saying they look better than the photos I think I was expecting too much - so my fault and not the gems!

 

[Harriet]

The only advice I can give is to see as many gems in person as possible (shows like Intergem are good places to start). Also, unless a stone really screams at you, be patient about purchasing. You don't want quantity, you want quality. With enough poking around, you may not even need AGL's Color Rating option, for instance. You'll be able to judge for yourself. Oh, and build relationships with vendors who seem trustworthy. Rick Martin of www.artcutgems.com held my hand when I first began collecting. He is still my mentor. Hope this helps.

No Intergem shows within 200 miles of where I live

What about museums?

 

[Pandora II]

LD - do you mind sharing who you use for appraisals?

No problem at all. I use Safeguard. I'm sure you're familiar with them? They're the appraisal arm of the Birmingham Assay Office. You can send gems there or meet with valuers when they are in your area. They're pricey but I've got my money's worth with them. Unfortunately I've had a number of claims over the years and thankfully the insurance companies have been happy that I had their appraisals. They also, in my experience, don't assign stupid inflated valuations (although they are for replacement of course). They can also arrange testing of gemstones but have limits eg can't test for BE but they can organise for the stone to be sent to Switzerland (I think) if necessary. They have labs in Birmingham and London that have different testing machines so one of my stones went on a UK roadtrip!

Having said all that, their appraisers are very good (I think there are only 6 for the whole of the UK) but I used the same one consistently who really really really knows her stuff and if she isn't familiar with something she always went away and did research. Unfortunately she's now left but I've kept in touch with her.

BTW the garnets arrived (with a little bag of freebies). They're pretty but the jury's out! I don't know why but they're not quite what I expected. From the photos and the description saying they look better than the photos I think I was expecting too much - so my fault and not the gems!

Thanks - yes I do know them and have heard good things about them but haven't used them.

I had seen one before IRL so I guess I knew what to expect and mine was nicer than the one I had seen. The freebies contained one very pretty little crystal group which was nice. They're definitely a collection stone not a wearable stone I think - unless you have weird taste!