Opinions on Gorilla killed at Cinn. Zoo

[WeeOui]

One of my favorite nonfiction children's books is 101 Questions and Answers about Dangerous Animals by Seymour Simon. On the very last page, there is a shiny silver paper that reflects the reader's face, illustrating which animal on this planet is actually the most dangerous and destructive of all.

I absolutely value the gorilla's life more than the child's, and I have no problem stating it. The gorilla's death makes me feel a lot sadder than I would feel if the child had died. As a general rule, I have more empathy for other animals than I do for the human species.

This is so sad. I hope no human (young or old) ever has to be in your care. [emoji17]

I'm a reading specialist at elementary and middle school.

Damn... [emoji15]

Would you stand back and watch as a stray dog or other animal mauled a helpless child?

Do you feel you'd still have a job if the parents of your students and/or the school board saw this forum or knew you felt this way?

If I'm being honest, I feel you'd be viewed as a huge liability, at best.

Two totally different scenarios, so your point is pointless. As an educator in an inner city, I witness the effects of negligent or nonexistent parenting everyday. It's extremely sad to me that in this case, it was not only the child who paid the price. In my opinion, the mother should face charges for child neglect, and her children should be removed from her care until CPS can deem her fit to parent.

Not "pointless." Children are under your care on a daily basis. Parents entrust teachers with their children. This is why school systems do background checks -- to do their diligence in keeping children safe on their watch. You are responsible for them during class.

I asked what you'd do in that type of situation. What would you do? What would be your role? Would you act to save the child in danger or would you allow it to happen?

Sorry, but your scenario is not comparable to the killing of this gorilla. The student group who volunteer at our animal shelter are not allowed anywhere near animals that could pose any threat to them, and they are well-supervised. If that child had been supervised at all during his visit to the zoo, this violence would never have had to happen. I supervise a group of 15 students during our shelter visits, and not a single one has ever managed to get himself/herself on the wrong side of the kennel. That's the difference between actually monitoring children vs. being an unfit parent.

Once again, avoiding the question. I'm not saying it's comparable to any every day occurrence -- I'm sure the mother at the zoo never dreamed her son would get into a gorilla enclosure. I'm asking what you would do in a similar situation.

Are you avoiding the question bc your answer would be disturbing? I'll make it easy for you... multiple choice and write-in.

What would your role be in a situation where you witnessed one of your students being attacked by an animal?

A. Do nothing
B. Act to try and save the child
C. Other: ______________________

C. Read my above post. I wrote it before I read this one.

I'm off to find some babies to throw into tiger cages now.

 

[packrat]

Near as I can see, humans value children only to a certain extent. We value them in...theory. But we don't go out of our way as a society or as a people to take care of them, or to ensure that they're taken care of or do anything to prevent harm from coming to them. We're pretty lackadaisical about the world's children, so in a way..yeah, 4 year olds are a dime a dozen. you can go to any foster home or orphanage or "system" and find a plethora of children that somebody had but nobody wants. That doesn't point to a people who value children. JD deals w/people every *day* who are "meh" about their own children. And we deem that to be ok. And it should't be. Ever. But, that's the society we've created w/our ways.

shit happens. As a parent it's your job, no one else's, to take care of your kid when they're in your care. yes, it's hard to keep track of multiple children--but that's not everyone else's job, that's your job b/c you chose to have those kids. Am I going to stand by and let your child run out into the street b/c you're busy w/your other five kids? No. But I would hope you're taking precautions on watching your kids and not just assuming someone else will. I've had words w/people in parking lots b/c they get out the older child first, and then say "stand here" and turn around to get the baby out in the carrier and the kid darts off into traffic. And I've almost hit kids that way. And moms don't like to hear what I say-but better they have my face in their face, than an injured or dead child. "it's not my fault. I told her to stand right her but she darted when I turned around" Um, yeah, it actually IS your fault b/c that's YOUR child and be definition YOUR responsibility. You don't expect a child to just go Ohhh yeah ok, I'll just stand here b/c mommy said so and I always listen b/c I'm a kid and that's what all kids do! No, a kids gonna go oooo what's that? and be gone.

I work in preschool. I've never once witnessed children who stand still for any length of time. Or stand where they're supposed to be. That's why to take a class picture you take 5000 pictures to get one. But it's my responsibility to don my wrangler hat and corral the velociraptors. And we have way more than the average mom. And we don't even get electric prods or anything.

 

[WeeOui]

One of my favorite nonfiction children's books is 101 Questions and Answers about Dangerous Animals by Seymour Simon. On the very last page, there is a shiny silver paper that reflects the reader's face, illustrating which animal on this planet is actually the most dangerous and destructive of all.

I absolutely value the gorilla's life more than the child's, and I have no problem stating it. The gorilla's death makes me feel a lot sadder than I would feel if the child had died. As a general rule, I have more empathy for other animals than I do for the human species.

This is so sad. I hope no human (young or old) ever has to be in your care. [emoji17]

I'm a reading specialist at elementary and middle school.

Damn... [emoji15]

Would you stand back and watch as a stray dog or other animal mauled a helpless child?

Do you feel you'd still have a job if the parents of your students and/or the school board saw this forum or knew you felt this way?

If I'm being honest, I feel you'd be viewed as a huge liability, at best.

Two totally different scenarios, so your point is pointless. As an educator in an inner city, I witness the effects of negligent or nonexistent parenting everyday. It's extremely sad to me that in this case, it was not only the child who paid the price. In my opinion, the mother should face charges for child neglect, and her children should be removed from her care until CPS can deem her fit to parent.

Not "pointless." Children are under your care on a daily basis. Parents entrust teachers with their children. This is why school systems do background checks -- to do their diligence in keeping children safe on their watch. You are responsible for them during class.

I asked what you'd do in that type of situation. What would you do? What would be your role? Would you act to save the child in danger or would you allow it to happen?

Sorry, but your scenario is not comparable to the killing of this gorilla. The student group who volunteer at our animal shelter are not allowed anywhere near animals that could pose any threat to them, and they are well-supervised. If that child had been supervised at all during his visit to the zoo, this violence would never have had to happen. I supervise a group of 15 students during our shelter visits, and not a single one has ever managed to get himself/herself on the wrong side of the kennel. That's the difference between actually monitoring children vs. being an unfit parent.

Once again, avoiding the question. I'm not saying it's comparable to any every day occurrence -- I'm sure the mother at the zoo never dreamed her son would get into a gorilla enclosure. I'm asking what you would do in a similar situation.

Are you avoiding the question bc your answer would be disturbing? I'll make it easy for you... multiple choice and write-in.

What would your role be in a situation where you witnessed one of your students being attacked by an animal?

A. Do nothing
B. Act to try and save the child
C. Other: ______________________

Disturbing to who? You? I couldn't care less. My views on animal rights are obviously different than yours, and you're obviously disturbed by that.

 

[msop04]

Contrary to what you may feel, I'm not attacking you at all. You've said you value animals over humans. I asked what you would do, as a teacher and therefore caretaker, if faced with a similar situation. I also asked how you believe the parents of said children would feel about your stance. You never answered.

I do feel that humans are superior, which is why I totally support saving another human when endangered by an animal. I'm honestly curious as to what your role would be in that situation. Even though I feel like I know the answer, I wanted you to state it... just so we're all clear.

Since you're so curious, what I would do in that situation is to MAKE SURE THE SITUATION NEVER HAPPENS!! Duh. The simple fact that this would even happen would mean that I was negligent to a gross degree.

Ugh. Humans.[/quote]

That sounds like a great plan. Tell me again how you have control over everything? NO ONE has control over every situation, and to pretend you do is extremely naive. Things happen that are out of our control, no matter how diligent we try to be. But, since you refuse to answer realistically, I'll just drop it.

Make sure to send permission slips out before throwing those kids to the animals...

 

[msop04]

Disturbing to who? You? I couldn't care less. My views on animal rights are obviously different than yours, and you're obviously disturbed by that.

I'm pretty sure the comments you've made would be found extremely disturbing to the vast majority, yes. And I don't care if you care... my concern is for those in your care. That is all.

 

[chrono]

This is why leashes exist. I have used it on my child before and make no apologies about it.

 

[msop04]

Near as I can see, humans value children only to a certain extent. We value them in...theory. But we don't go out of our way as a society or as a people to take care of them, or to ensure that they're taken care of or do anything to prevent harm from coming to them. We're pretty lackadaisical about the world's children, so in a way..yeah, 4 year olds are a dime a dozen. you can go to any foster home or orphanage or "system" and find a plethora of children that somebody had but nobody wants. That doesn't point to a people who value children. JD deals w/people every *day* who are "meh" about their own children. And we deem that to be ok. And it should't be. Ever. But, that's the society we've created w/our ways.

shit happens. As a parent it's your job, no one else's, to take care of your kid when they're in your care. yes, it's hard to keep track of multiple children--but that's not everyone else's job, that's your job b/c you chose to have those kids. Am I going to stand by and let your child run out into the street b/c you're busy w/your other five kids? No. But I would hope you're taking precautions on watching your kids and not just assuming someone else will. I've had words w/people in parking lots b/c they get out the older child first, and then say "stand here" and turn around to get the baby out in the carrier and the kid darts off into traffic. And I've almost hit kids that way. And moms don't like to hear what I say-but better they have my face in their face, than an injured or dead child. "it's not my fault. I told her to stand right her but she darted when I turned around" Um, yeah, it actually IS your fault b/c that's YOUR child and be definition YOUR responsibility. You don't expect a child to just go Ohhh yeah ok, I'll just stand here b/c mommy said so and I always listen b/c I'm a kid and that's what all kids do! No, a kids gonna go oooo what's that? and be gone.

I work in preschool. I've never once witnessed children who stand still for any length of time. Or stand where they're supposed to be. That's why to take a class picture you take 5000 pictures to get one. But it's my responsibility to don my wrangler hat and corral the velociraptors. And we have way more than the average mom. And we don't even get electric prods or anything.

packie, I agree with everything you've said in this post. The fact that you'd care for others when their own parents don't seem to says a lot about your character. I'm glad there are people like you there for those whose parents are slack, and I'd feel super comfortable with you watching my sweet "dinosaur"! I cant even imagine all the neglect you see -- I know it aggravates the life out of you, but I commend you for caring. It bothers me when I see similar instances of neglect at the grocery or mall... it's sad. I've had to hold my tongue on several occasions, believe me.

...and I love that you nicknamed them velociraptors.

 

[msop04]

This is why leashes exist. I have used it on my child before and make no apologies about it.

I'm a fan of those child leashes -- no apologies needed, IMO! I'm sure I'll use one on my daughter when the time comes.

 

[Matata]

And we don't even get electric prods or anything.

Whaaat? Unarmed adults are sent into an enclosure with pre-school children!? And denied the pleasure, err I mean necessity, of zapping their little squirming disobedient bums when they misbehave? Oh the inhumanity.

 

[monarch64]

One of my favorite nonfiction children's books is 101 Questions and Answers about Dangerous Animals by Seymour Simon. On the very last page, there is a shiny silver paper that reflects the reader's face, illustrating which animal on this planet is actually the most dangerous and destructive of all.

I absolutely value the gorilla's life more than the child's, and I have no problem stating it. The gorilla's death makes me feel a lot sadder than I would feel if the child had died. As a general rule, I have more empathy for other animals than I do for the human species.

This is so sad. I hope no human (young or old) ever has to be in your care. [emoji17]

I'm a reading specialist at elementary and middle school.

Damn... [emoji15]

Would you stand back and watch as a stray dog or other animal mauled a helpless child?

Do you feel you'd still have a job if the parents of your students and/or the school board saw this forum or knew you felt this way?

If I'm being honest, I feel you'd be viewed as a huge liability, at best.

I'd much rather a person who thinks critically and doesn't consider themselves superior over other living things be responsible for my 4 year old all day. Huge props to WeeOui for stating her unabashed feelings on the matter.

I pray your precious child (or any person, for that matter) is never in a situation where the decision for his/her safety is threatened by an animal when being "cared for" or in the presence of one of those critical thinkers you admire so much. Truly.

It's cool, you can keep your prayers to yourself or save them for someone who appreciates that sort of imposition. I won't be signing any field trip permission slips to zoos or any other places where I, or her father will not be present until she is old enough to discern potential danger. You know, the way animals do it.

 

[CJ2008]

This is why leashes exist. I have used it on my child before and make no apologies about it.

I'm a fan of those child leashes -- no apologies needed, IMO! I'm sure I'll use one on my daughter when the time comes.

I think I would totally use one of these too.

And I've been pondering over the question everyone has been asking.

Say you did everything in your power to prevent / avoid an accident - say for example, the child is wearing a leash, and it gets cut (I know that's an extreme example - but...that's how things happen) and he/she jumped into an enclosure just like in this story. What would I do?

I would *hate* hate hate to have to kill an animal. Any animal. Dog, gorilla, whatever.

And chances are I would probably totally paralyze out of fear since I don't react well under stress.

But say I didn't paralyze...and I had a gun, or some other way to hurt the animal. I think I'd shoot the animal. I wouldn't want to and would probably cry for days or months. But I think in that moment I'd choose the human. I would probably shoot to injure first and if it didn't work then shoot to kill. Unless I knew going in out of experience or knowledge etc. that shooting to injure was not an option (due to the size of the animal, etc.)

Just thinking about having to do this brings tears to my eyes. I would seriously mourn that animal.

But I think that's what I would do.

I hope I never ever have to face anything even remotely close to this.

ETA the other thing I could see myself doing out of total desperation is jumping in myself - so that nobody would shoot the animal and to help the child - and probably get killed in the process. I don't know if I'd have the guts but I just might.

 

[monarch64]

Matata, I'll see your Key Lime pie and raise you a piece of vegan banana pie in Harambe's honor...

 

[msop04]

This is why leashes exist. I have used it on my child before and make no apologies about it.

I'm a fan of those child leashes -- no apologies needed, IMO! I'm sure I'll use one on my daughter when the time comes.

I think I would totally use one of these too.

And I've been pondering over the question everyone has been asking.

Say you did everything in your power to prevent / avoid an accident - say for example, the child is wearing a leash, and it gets cut (I know that's an extreme example - but...that's how things happen) and he/she jumped into an enclosure just like in this story. What would I do?

I would *hate* hate hate to have to kill an animal. Any animal. Dog, gorilla, whatever.

And chances are I would probably totally paralyze out of fear since I don't react well under stress.

But say I didn't paralyze...and I had a gun, or some other way to hurt the animal. I think I'd shoot the animal. I wouldn't want to and would probably cry for days or months. But I think in that moment I'd choose the human. I would probably shoot to injure first and if it didn't work then shoot to kill. Unless I knew going in out of experience or knowledge etc. that shooting to injure was not an option (due to the size of the animal, etc.)

Just thinking about having to do this brings tears to my eyes. I would seriously mourn that animal.

But I think that's what I would do.

I hope I never ever have to face anything even remotely close to this.

ETA the other thing I could see myself doing out of total desperation is jumping in myself - so that nobody would shoot the animal and to help the child - and probably get killed in the process. I don't know if I'd have the guts but I just might.

No one wants to be faced with that type of decision... it sucks. It's just so sad for all involved.

FWIW, you should just talk to WeeOui. This poster has managed to figure out how to control everything, so nothing shall ever happen out of her control. Sounds legit.

 

[AGBF]

I was in the dentist's chair or I would have had my slice of pie up earlier. Matata and Monnie, your slices look yummy!!! People with different views on pie can get along!

Deb

 

[CJ2008]

This is why leashes exist. I have used it on my child before and make no apologies about it.

I'm a fan of those child leashes -- no apologies needed, IMO! I'm sure I'll use one on my daughter when the time comes.

I think I would totally use one of these too.

And I've been pondering over the question everyone has been asking.

Say you did everything in your power to prevent / avoid an accident - say for example, the child is wearing a leash, and it gets cut (I know that's an extreme example - but...that's how things happen) and he/she jumped into an enclosure just like in this story. What would I do?

I would *hate* hate hate to have to kill an animal. Any animal. Dog, gorilla, whatever.

And chances are I would probably totally paralyze out of fear since I don't react well under stress.

But say I didn't paralyze...and I had a gun, or some other way to hurt the animal. I think I'd shoot the animal. I wouldn't want to and would probably cry for days or months. But I think in that moment I'd choose the human. I would probably shoot to injure first and if it didn't work then shoot to kill. Unless I knew going in out of experience or knowledge etc. that shooting to injure was not an option (due to the size of the animal, etc.)

Just thinking about having to do this brings tears to my eyes. I would seriously mourn that animal.

But I think that's what I would do.

I hope I never ever have to face anything even remotely close to this.

ETA the other thing I could see myself doing out of total desperation is jumping in myself - so that nobody would shoot the animal and to help the child - and probably get killed in the process. I don't know if I'd have the guts but I just might.

No one wants to be faced with that type of decision... it sucks. It's just so sad for all involved.

it really is msop

I think all this pie stuff means we're supposed to stop talking? What does this mean?

 

[monarch64]

CJ, no one has to stop talking! It's our way of saying we aren't taking things personally when discussion gets heated, and that although we may disagree on the subject at hand, everyone likes pie!

 

[rainwood]

msop04 -

I posted a more general comment up thread, hoping to prevent this thread from devolving into the usual firestorm, but since that didn't work I'm going to be both more specific and direct it to you. People come to this thread to express their opinions on what happened, whatever those opinions might be. Some are the same as yours, some are different. People should be able to post an opinion that differs from yours without having you chase them down and demand a justification or be attacked or shamed by you. This is not a court of law and you are not the judge.

I don't know if you realize that's what you're doing, but that's how it reads. And before you say you're entitled to express your opinion, yes you are. But you've already posted 33 TIMES. I counted. And many of those fall into the category of chasing down, demanding justification, shaming or personal attacks. That may not be what you intended, but that's how they read and I can say that as a neutral observer because none of them were directed at me. And yes, others have done the same so I hope they take it to heart too, but on this thread you've done it the most.

When someone mentions pie, it's a signal the thread has gotten out of hand. So if you see someone offer pie, please pick up a fork and have a taste. Pie is good. And it makes us take our hands off the keyboard for a couple of minutes.

 

[Arcadian]

When someone mentions pie, it's a signal the thread has gotten out of hand. So if you see someone offer pie, please pick up a fork and have a taste. Pie is good. And it makes us take our hands off the keyboard for a couple of minutes.

 

[msop04]

msop04 -

I posted a more general comment up thread, hoping to prevent this thread from devolving into the usual firestorm, but since that didn't work I'm going to be both more specific and direct it to you. People come to this thread to express their opinions on what happened, whatever those opinions might be. Some are the same as yours, some are different. People should be able to post an opinion that differs from yours without having you chase them down and demand a justification or be attacked or shamed by you. This is not a court of law and you are not the judge.

I don't know if you realize that's what you're doing, but that's how it reads. And before you say you're entitled to express your opinion, yes you are. But you've already posted 33 TIMES. I counted. And many of those fall into the category of chasing down, demanding justification, shaming or personal attacks. That may not be what you intended, but that's how they read and I can say that as a neutral observer because none of them were directed at me. And yes, others have done the same so I hope they take it to heart too, but on this thread you've done it the most.

When someone mentions pie, it's a signal the thread has gotten out of hand. So if you see someone offer pie, please pick up a fork and have a taste. Pie is good. And it makes us take our hands off the keyboard for a couple of minutes.

rainwood,

I understand that people vary. I also understand that we will never agree. And I'm not sure how many times I've posted, so thanks for the update on that. I've made it clear that I value human life over all others -- others obviously do not. At all. ...and that is very sad to me. It is especially sad to me that we have people in this world who have chosen professions that include caring for minors (a teacher, in this case), who would even consider the life of an animal be valued over any person, much less the children they have under their care. It is sickening to think my own child could ever be in a situation where her teacher felt this way, and ultimately let her be harmed, or worse, killed.

I never intended to "attack" - but I find it interesting that no one would come out and say their obvious answer to the question. I can only imagine it is because they would allow a person to die. And I wasn't "shaming"... as a matter of fact, they seem pretty darn pleased with themselves and how they feel regarding this matter. If they feel "shamed", then maybe they should?

...and I'm also in perfect understanding of how Hangout works. If you don't agree with the "all-knowing" and popular liberal opinion here, you are wrong and will be persecuted as such. Funny how those people cry "attack" when the shoe is on the other foot.

In most threads, people are b!tching and moaning about human rights (or lack thereof) and treating everyone with kindness -- "The Golden Rule", if you will... in this one, they are 100% in favor of ending human life for other species. Interesting...

 

[telephone89]

msop04 -

I posted a more general comment up thread, hoping to prevent this thread from devolving into the usual firestorm, but since that didn't work I'm going to be both more specific and direct it to you. People come to this thread to express their opinions on what happened, whatever those opinions might be. Some are the same as yours, some are different. People should be able to post an opinion that differs from yours without having you chase them down and demand a justification or be attacked or shamed by you. This is not a court of law and you are not the judge.

I don't know if you realize that's what you're doing, but that's how it reads. And before you say you're entitled to express your opinion, yes you are. But you've already posted 33 TIMES. I counted. And many of those fall into the category of chasing down, demanding justification, shaming or personal attacks. That may not be what you intended, but that's how they read and I can say that as a neutral observer because none of them were directed at me. And yes, others have done the same so I hope they take it to heart too, but on this thread you've done it the most.

When someone mentions pie, it's a signal the thread has gotten out of hand. So if you see someone offer pie, please pick up a fork and have a taste. Pie is good. And it makes us take our hands off the keyboard for a couple of minutes.

Thank you for this. I almost reported a post because I thought it went way over the line but didn't as I didn't want the thread to get shut down

And thank you monarch as well. I've seen the pie come up multiple times and also had no idea what it meant

 

[lovedogs]

Didn't know what the pie meant either, but now that someone explained.....chocolate silk, anyone?





Also some Ron Burgundy, because I love that movie

 

[AGBF]

Didn't know what the pie meant either, but now that someone explained.....chocolate silk, anyone?

Once the pie comes out, I am open to most varieties! That chocolate silk looks scrumptious. By the way, I love your user name. I love dogs in real life, even though I managed not to weigh in on this animal topic.

Welcome (belatedly) to Pricescope.

Deb

 

[WeeOui]

Msop, I am a damn good teacher. Although I no longer work in the classroom as my position as a reading specialist primarily involves mentoring teachers and reworking our outdated language arts curriculum, I still work with small groups and head our animal shelter volunteer program, and I spent 12 years as a classroom teacher without ever having one of my students come to any physical harm due to a lack of supervision on my part. Believe me, that's a pretty decent record, and it includes field trips, field days, an Africanized honeybee invasion on our campus, and an 8-year old budding pyromaniac whose pockets had to be checked everyday for matches. Any student in my care received my care.

I hate to dissolve your twisted dark fantasy of me standing by and watching my students throw themselves into gorilla enclosures, but you're being completely ridiculous. Just because I do not value human life over other animal life does not mean I have no value for human life. My belief that animals should enjoy the same inalienable rights as our species is a core belief. It shapes my life and my lifestyle. It guides me in choosing the foods I eat, the clothes I wear, the furniture I buy, the cosmetics I use, the tires I buy, basically every purchase I make. What it does not affect, however, is the safety and well-being of my students. I believe my compassion for other animals helps me become a better human, and I have witnessed firsthand how caring for other living creatures helps the emotionally disturbed students in my volunteer group become better people, too.

I should not have said that I value the gorilla's life over the child's. Any loss of life is sad. But I do have to be honest about my feelings and say that the gorilla's death has hit me much harder than I think the child's would have. He did not force himself into the child's territory. He has had no control of his circumstances, from beginning to end, and that makes me incredibly sad.

 

[Matata]

If you don't agree with the "all-knowing" and popular liberal opinion here, you are wrong and will be persecuted as such. Funny how those people cry "attack" when the shoe is on the other foot.

Bollocks. Why does this tired refrain keep coming up in discussions involving controversial ideas? So what if liberal opinion is the majority here? Where is the persecution in a difference of opinion? In a discussion where people disagree there is always the opportunity to learn something even if that something isn't pleasant. The moment anyone here expresses an opinion, it opens that opinion up to critique. If people can't stand the heat, they should stay away from the flame.

In most threads, people are b!tching and moaning about human rights (or lack thereof) and treating everyone with kindness -- "The Golden Rule", if you will...in this one, they are 100% in favor of ending human life for other species. Interesting...

We still want each and every one of those humans to have equal rights under the law.

 

[msop04]

Msop, I am a damn good teacher. Although I no longer work in the classroom as my position as a reading specialist primarily involves mentoring teachers and reworking our outdated language arts curriculum, I still work with small groups and head our animal shelter volunteer program, and I spent 12 years as a classroom teacher without ever having one of my students come to any physical harm due to a lack of supervision on my part. Believe me, that's a pretty decent record, and it includes field trips, field days, an Africanized honeybee invasion on our campus, and an 8-year old budding pyromaniac whose pockets had to be checked everyday for matches. Any student in my care received my care.

I hate to dissolve your twisted dark fantasy of me standing by and watching my students throw themselves into gorilla enclosures, but you're being completely ridiculous. Just because I do not value human life over other animal life does not mean I have no value for human life. My belief that animals should enjoy the same inalienable rights as our species is a core belief. It shapes my life and my lifestyle. It guides me in choosing the foods I eat, the clothes I wear, the furniture I buy, the cosmetics I use, the tires I buy, basically every purchase I make. What it does not affect, however, is the safety and well-being of my students. I believe my compassion for other animals helps me become a better human, and I have witnessed firsthand how caring for other living creatures helps the emotionally disturbed students in my volunteer group become better people, too.

I should not have said that I value the gorilla's life over the child's. Any loss of life is sad. But I do have to be honest about my feelings and say that the gorilla's death has hit me much harder than I think the child's would have. He did not force himself into the child's territory. He has had no control of his circumstances, from beginning to end, and that makes me incredibly sad.

It is a twisted thought and it makes me sick to even think it, so I agree with you on that... and I am very relieved that you would look out for your students. I agree that the gorilla is completely innocent. He is an animal, and was merely acting as such. It is a shame that he died. However, I am very thankful that there was no other loss of life, be it animal or human.

I hope these type stories are very few and far between, because regardless of how we (collective) feel on the animal vs human debate, I think we can all agree that preventable loss of life is always sad.

Thank you for posting.

I think I'll have some of that pie now... I hear it's amazing.

 

[WeeOui]

The promise of pie makes the arguments worthwhile

It's nice to be able to agree to disagree. This topic is such a huge hot button for me, I admit, and I tend have a highly emotional response and express my views way too strong for polite company (or so I've been told.) I think it's part and parcel of being a "cuckoo vegan" who was raised in a family of hardcore hunters. It's really fun around our table at Thanksgiving

 

[rainwood]

msop04

I didn't single you out or "persecute" you because of your opinion. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. What bothered me enough to post was how you responded to people who expressed an opinion that was the opposite of yours. It was your reaction to others that was troubling to me, not your original opinion.

You seem bothered that no one answered some of your questions, but I wonder why you would expect them to. It's not like they were going to change your mind, and based on your earlier posts would most likely have triggered another post from you as to why they were wrong or you wouldn't want them taking care of people or teaching children. So why would they?

And you shouldn't assume I posted because I disagree with you. I've never expressed what I think or even if I've made up my mind. One of the reasons I like to read these threads is because I want to hear what other people have to say, especially if it's different than where I think I might be heading. And I love when someone offers a perspective that I never would have thought of or I find surprising. Packrat is a perfect example of this for me. I always like to see her weigh in because of that. So I get miffed when these threads run off the rails because that part of the experience goes away, and PS starts to more closely resemble the bad part of the twitter sphere. That's not why I come here.

So that's where I'm coming from, and is the spirit in which my post was offered. Pie out.

 

[arkieb1]

I too was a teacher for a number of years and no students came to any harm under my care. When my son was 5 or 6 I took him to Taronga Zoo in Sydney. They have a walk in enclosure with huge nets over it you go in take bags off go through two security gates and inside there are Lemurs. There are signs up everywhere don't cross over x or y, follow the guides around the pathway and don't pat the Lemurs. My son is a well behaved child. I have school reports all saying he is one of the best behaved kids in his class. He is in the gifted and talented range for reading and maths at his school. I watch him like a hawk. I don't have multiple kids and I told him not to pat the Lemurs, the guide explained why they have that rule before we went in. The first thing he does when he gets inside the enclosure? He sees a Lemur sitting on something, it's long tail is hanging down. The guide is talking I am holding his hand. He twists out of my grasp, crosses the line faster than I or the guide and comprehend and he grabs the black and white tail of a Lemur.

The guide asks him really loudly to get back behind the line and not to do that, I cross the line grab him and pull him back to where he is supposed to be and tell him repeatedly the Lemurs could bite scratch and hurt him. He has the biggest smile on his face. We get out of there and I explain again why he is not supposed to touch the animals and that was a silly thing to do. He looks at me and he says I know Mum but it's tail was hanging down and I just had to pat it and it was so soft and I really love Lemurs.

He was 5 or 6 he didn't get it at all. The 4 year old would get it even less. No one has ever said I was a bad parent. The simple truth in life is that we cannot control everything 100% of the time things beyond our control and accidents happen. Kids from good, bad and average homes fall over, fall out of trees, get bitten by things, drown, die in various accidents every day.

It's deeply sad that the gorilla was killed, I wish they could have found some way to save him. After the episode with the Lemur, I can put myself into that mother's position and if it were my son I would have jumped over the wall, broken both my legs and put myself between the gorilla and my kid. I don't think there is a right or a wrong answer, thats just the way it would have been. There is no right or wrong side here, it's a sad accident and I am glad the little boy is O.K.

Rather than aiming vitriolic comments at the mother after the event, because I can say as the mother of the kid that grabbed the Lemur, if there was some way a small kid could get into an enclosure regardless of socio economic backgrounds and indeed good and bad parenting a gap in the fence and any way to get into the enclosures in a place that has lots of small children is an accident waiting to happen.

Hopefully other zoos and places that have captive animals will examine what occurred an make sure it doesn't happen again. The gorilla didn't deserve to die. The child should never have been able to get into the enclosure in the first place period.

 

[msop04]

msop04

I didn't single you out or "persecute" you because of your opinion. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. What bothered me enough to post was how you responded to people who expressed an opinion that was the opposite of yours. It was your reaction to others that was troubling to me, not your original opinion.

You seem bothered that no one answered some of your questions, but I wonder why you would expect them to. It's not like they were going to change your mind, and based on your earlier posts would most likely have triggered another post from you as to why they were wrong or you wouldn't want them taking care of people or teaching children. So why would they?

And you shouldn't assume I posted because I disagree with you. I've never expressed what I think or even if I've made up my mind. One of the reasons I like to read these threads is because I want to hear what other people have to say, especially if it's different than where I think I might be heading. And I love when someone offers a perspective that I never would have thought of or I find surprising. Packrat is a perfect example of this for me. I always like to see her weigh in because of that. So I get miffed when these threads run off the rails because that part of the experience goes away, and PS starts to more closely resemble the bad part of the twitter sphere. That's not why I come here.

So that's where I'm coming from, and is the spirit in which my post was offered. Pie out.

I completely understand... no hard feelings at all, rainwood.

 

[msop04]

I too was a teacher for a number of years and no students came to any harm under my care. When my son was 5 or 6 I took him to Taronga Zoo in Sydney. They have a walk in enclosure with huge nets over it you go in take bags off go through two security gates and inside there are Lemurs. There are signs up everywhere don't cross over x or y, follow the guides around the pathway and don't pat the Lemurs. My son is a well behaved child. I have school reports all saying he is one of the best behaved kids in his class. He is in the gifted and talented range for reading and maths at his school. I watch him like a hawk. I don't have multiple kids and I told him not to pat the Lemurs, the guide explained why they have that rule before we went in. The first thing he does when he gets inside the enclosure? He sees a Lemur sitting on something, it's long tail is hanging down. The guide is talking I am holding his hand. He twists out of my grasp, crosses the line faster than I or the guide and comprehend and he grabs the black and white tail of a Lemur.

The guide asks him really loudly to get back behind the line and not to do that, I cross the line grab him and pull him back to where he is supposed to be and tell him repeatedly the Lemurs could bite scratch and hurt him. He has the biggest smile on his face. We get out of there and I explain again why he is not supposed to touch the animals and that was a silly thing to do. He looks at me and he says I know Mum but it's tail was hanging down and I just had to pat it and it was so soft and I really love Lemurs.

He was 5 or 6 he didn't get it at all. The 4 year old would get it even less. No one has ever said I was a bad parent. The simple truth in life is that we cannot control everything 100% of the time things beyond our control and accidents happen. Kids from good, bad and average homes fall over, fall out of trees, get bitten by things, drown, die in various accidents every day.

It's deeply sad that the gorilla was killed, I wish they could have found some way to save him. After the episode with the Lemur, I can put myself into that mother's position and if it were my son I would have jumped over the wall, broken both my legs and put myself between the gorilla and my kid. I don't think there is a right or a wrong answer, thats just the way it would have been. There is no right or wrong side here, it's a sad accident and I am glad the little boy is O.K.

Rather than aiming vitriolic comments at the mother after the event, because I can say as the mother of the kid that grabbed the Lemur, if there was some way a small kid could get into an enclosure regardless of socio economic backgrounds and indeed good and bad parenting a gap in the fence and any way to get into the enclosures in a place that has lots of small children is an accident waiting to happen.

Hopefully other zoos and places that have captive animals will examine what occurred an make sure it doesn't happen again. The gorilla didn't deserve to die. The child should never have been able to get into the enclosure in the first place period.

Very well stated, arkie. I think I'd be tempted to pet the lemur's tail as well...