once you buy on-line, then what?

[gshanks]

Here''s one for all of you who have bought on-line:

If I buy a diamond on-line, what do I need to do once I receive it? In particular, I hear talk about appraisals, insurance, and obviously, I need to have it set. Will a local jeweler set a loose diamond that isn''t bought from them? I''m not getting anything huge here, just .7-.75ct, G or H, SI1, VG cut. I guess the essence of my question is, once I receive that Fed Ex box, what do I do next? Thanks,

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Well.

When i bought, i had made arrangements for it to be sent straight to an appriaser and had already sorted out a local jeweller who would make the ring and set the diamond. the Appraiser had a look then sent it out... the package arrived to day. i get to have alook, and im taking into the jewellers on tuesday... oh and i need to organise insurance. *note to self*

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 2/12/2005 2:45:30 PM
Author: Lord Summerisle
Well.

When i bought, i had made arrangements for it to be sent straight to an appriaser and had already sorted out a local jeweller who would make the ring and set the diamond. the Appraiser had a look then sent it out... the package arrived to day. i get to have alook, and im taking into the jewellers on tuesday... oh and i need to organise insurance. *note to self*

Lord Summerisle.....

I think you made a highly wise and prudent decision.

While most internet sellers that participate here have the best intentions, there are some sellers who do not.

I see a lot of people that purchase and pay their money before they get the stone. They have the stone sent to them directly and then march around to the best local appraiser they can find.

It is my opinion that this is risky. Diamonds must be handled properly which consumers may not do correctly. While accidently damaging a diamond isn''t a major problem the potential does exist. Even the best of us can have an accident. Just talk to gemological students who affiirm they have dropped diamonds out of tweezers. When I went to school many of us were retrieving diamonds on hands and knees, crawling around the floor.

Then there is the issue of "is it the same stone". When I receive a shipment, the first thing done is to Gemprint the diamond, so there is no question that if the stone is returned there is no way of a deceptive seller claiming that the stone returned isn''t the same one they sent. In fact many of the internet sellers do gemprint the item before it is shipped and re- image the stone if returned. This also assures the consumer that he is getting the actual stone he bargained for and buys, should he decide to buy it.

Further, a professional appraiser has insurance to protect himself where a consumer doesn''t.

Many times I''ve helped consumers arrange for their insurance coverage before I''ve shipped it to them. This way the consumer is protected from any loss that can happen.

The appraiser can certainly be extremely helpful in providing what information the consumer''s insurance company wants to effect an immediate insurance binder.

I think you made a very wise choice.

Rockdoc

 

[diamondsbylauren]

I guess everyone''s had different experiences- but I''ve dropped thousands of diamonds ( literally) and never once damaged one- not once.
So the danger of a consumer dropping and breaking a stone is non existant- of course they could easily loose the diamond. But there far more important reasons to buy a diamond and ring from one vendor.


For one thing, you can get a money back guarantee on the whole deal. If tyhe ring is not to your liking, the person who sold you a diamond is very likely to fix it for you.
If you bring your local jeweler a diamond you bought elsewhere, and you don''t like the ring he sets in into, will he refund your money?
As far as breakage- although I''ve never damaged a diamond by dropping it , I have had many diamonds damaged by setters.
Same scenario- you bring a loose diamond purchased elsewhere to the jeweler, and it''s damaged during setting- who''s responsible?


Now let''s talk about the trust issue- say you buy a mounted diamond and you fear the seller might give you something other than what was promised.
There''s a very simple answer to that one- if you have the slightest shadow of a doubt about the seller, find another.
I don''t see how a person suspicious of a seller is protecting themselves by having it sent to an appraiser first. If the seller is not trustworthy, he can claim the appraiser switched the diamond.
In terms of coverage- any diamodn dealer worth their salt will issue the appriaisal prior to shipping on request. This way the consumer can "pre-insure" the item.

Therefore my advice to gshanks is: Find a seller you are comfortable with- someone who can sell you a diamond alreay set into a ring.
Have the seller issue an appraisal identifying what you''ve bought. This is a goiod idea even if the diamond has a GIA report- the seller''s appraisal should identify any side stones, and the mounting
Then it''s a simple matter to take it to a local appraiser to confirm that you did indeed get what you were promised.
Also- Make sure you get the money back guarantee- if the ring arrives and you don''t like it, why bother wasting time finding out what an appraiser thinks?

 

[gshanks]

Sounds great. This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for...

 

[pearcrazy]

When I bought my diamond I didn''t send it to an appraiser first. Rather I had the jeweler who was going to set the stone in my existing engagement mounting weigh, measure and confirm in his opinion as to whether the color and clarity matched the certificate. They did. He also gave me his opinion as to whether or not the diamond was well cut even though I already knew I''d be keeping the diamond no matter what he said-- WHY? Because the diamond looked beautiful to ME and I''d looked at enough diamonds in local jewelry stores to know that I''d gotten a good price on it. I sparkled and shined and I liked it. Once the ring was re-set he gave an appraisal of the finished ring and matching wedding band required for insurance. We weren''t buying it as any kind of investment but purely as a personal, sentimental piece. I just wanted to know that I had indeed gotten what we''d paid for. Many people send the diamond to an appraiser first but I just had faith that the vendor would honor his 10 day return policy if I wasn''t happy with what I got. It all depends on your level of comfort with purchasing online.

You may want to consider having the online vendor set the diamond for you if they have any settings that you are interested in. That will eliminate the need to search around for a local jeweler to set the diamond for you. Most of them will be happy to do it if they are selling you the setting. My problem arose because I already had a setting that I wanted to re-use with my bigger diamond. I had the task of finding a jeweler to mount a diamond into a setting when he''d sold me neither. I called 3 jewelers before I found one willing to do the work for me. I had to lie about where I''d gotten the diamond telling him I''d purchased it from a relative with a failed engagement.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Thanks Doc.

My thoughts where - well they seemj to have a good rep.. but i'd just check first - especially as the vender and myself where on different continents... if it wasnt what they said they it was, while i *might* have got my money back (depending on if i had chosen a good vendor - and if it wasnt what they said it would be - then the chances they where reliable was diminished ) i knew i wasnt going to have a cat in smegs chance of getting the import charges of 41% back.

but having done research - they lived up to their rep wonderfully

About handling - I've been practicing getting used to handling the CZ stones i had with the 2 pairs of tweezers - and the number of times that i ended up on hands and knees searching was unbelievable... it seems Diamonds suffer Fridge Suck* in the same way BBs do..





*Fridge Suck - that undefinded force by which the smallest item you have just dropped, will come to rest under the most unlikely large immovable object.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 2/12/2005 3:28:59 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren
I guess everyone''s had different experiences- but I''ve dropped thousands of diamonds ( literally) and never once damaged one- not once.
So the danger of a consumer dropping and breaking a stone is non existant- of course they could easily loose the diamond. But there far more important reasons to buy a diamond and ring from one vendor.


For one thing, you can get a money back guarantee on the whole deal. If tyhe ring is not to your liking, the person who sold you a diamond is very likely to fix it for you.
If you bring your local jeweler a diamond you bought elsewhere, and you don''t like the ring he sets in into, will he refund your money?
As far as breakage- although I''ve never damaged a diamond by dropping it , I have had many diamonds damaged by setters.
Same scenario- you bring a loose diamond purchased elsewhere to the jeweler, and it''s damaged during setting- who''s responsible?


Now let''s talk about the trust issue- say you buy a mounted diamond and you fear the seller might give you something other than what was promised.
There''s a very simple answer to that one- if you have the slightest shadow of a doubt about the seller, find another.
I don''t see how a person suspicious of a seller is protecting themselves by having it sent to an appraiser first. If the seller is not trustworthy, he can claim the appraiser switched the diamond.
In terms of coverage- any diamodn dealer worth their salt will issue the appriaisal prior to shipping on request. This way the consumer can ''pre-insure'' the item.

Therefore my advice to gshanks is: Find a seller you are comfortable with- someone who can sell you a diamond alreay set into a ring.
Have the seller issue an appraisal identifying what you''ve bought. This is a goiod idea even if the diamond has a GIA report- the seller''s appraisal should identify any side stones, and the mounting
Then it''s a simple matter to take it to a local appraiser to confirm that you did indeed get what you were promised.
Also- Make sure you get the money back guarantee- if the ring arrives and you don''t like it, why bother wasting time finding out what an appraiser thinks?

David

With respect for what you''ve written I have a far different opinion than you do.

Your opinion is obviously based on the postion of being a seller not a buyer.

A seller of a diamond CANNOT be the appraiser too. His opinion is on of self interest. The report is also biased. So while a seller can write a description of purchase where in the report it is made crystal clear that it is prepared by an interested party with the individual details of the purchase. This is fine, but to write an appraisal? NADA!

An appraisal MUST be independently prepared, and the appraiser has to be disinterested in the transactions.

Then how many sellers issue a report that says " We Certify" etc. when in fact the person preparing the report isn''t certified himself. The bulk of appraisals I''ve seen are written by people who have NO TRAINING, pr education in valuation. Further many reports attesting to the gemolgical quality are made from many who have no education or training in gemology.

How many sellers value an article they''ve sold for more than they have sold it for without disclosing the actual sales price and explaining in the report why the difference? This is a material fact, and if the differences are great the insurance company has the right to not pay the cliam.

I won''t provide names here, but one of the prominent sellers on the internet who is well know on this forum had an instance of damage. He had the consumer''s money and deducted a fee for the recutting of the stone, the weight loss, the cost of getting new lab reports. So while it isn''t common to have a problem the portential is one that exists. In this matter we don''t know who was responsible for damaging the stone. Certainly the seller was justified in charing the consumer for the repairs, weight loss value, and the costs of recertifying the diamond. Needless to say the consumer was furious, according to the seller.

Further, I''m not advocating that is a commonly occuring happening. In fact its quite rare...but it can happen. A diamond in the hands of a novice could be risky. Your comparison that you''ve never had one break while handling is a very different environment from a novice. How good are the tweezers being used? How thin is the girdle where even minor chipping could occur? As I''m sure you''ll agree that if the pressure on a loose stone is too strong, the diamond can fly out of the tweezers, and ricochet to almost any place. Even Lord Summerisle confirmed that in his post just before this.

Diamond labs and dealers plan the diamond examination areas to avoid this happening as much as possible, but a consumer who has the diamond on the kitchen table, don''t have the controlled environment that we do.

Would you buy a home and let the seller do the home insepction as well as the appraisal ? Why should a diamond seller feel that he is justified in writing valuation reports and gemological reports without the proper qualifications? Worse yet, why would a consumer do this?

While most sellers do stand behind their refund policies, the greatest number of stores don''t make refunds. In many local jewelry exchanges here, almost 100% of the jewelers have signs... NO REFUNDS or NO REFUNDS - Credit or Exchanges ONLY. Some don''t even have signs but stamp it on the sales slips, so the consumer doesn''t find out about it until after the purchase is made.


The problem is we have no laws state by state that prohibit this practice. There just aren''t enough professional independent appraiser to meet the demand, so the insurance companies are "forced" to acceot almost anything so they can sell a policy.

I approach my thinking from the position of being a consumer.

Regards

Rockdoc

 

[Bagpuss]

*Fridge Suck - that undefinded force by which the smallest item you have just dropped, will come to rest under the most unlikely large immovable object.

 

[amytude]

gshanks---just got my diamond this week. I had an appt scheduled with the appraiser set for the day after I received my stone. She charges $25 to inspect the stone and make sure it is what it says it is (clarity, color, etc.). This $25 is then credited towards the full appraisal once my stone is mounted. So, now I have the loose stone here and I''m going tomorrow to start looking at settings. If you already know what type of setting you like, then you''ll be even more prepared than me! It is all fairly uncomplicated--the jeweler I have selected has no problems setting a stone bought elsewhere. He actually showed me several diamonds--though I didnt buy from him--I liked his service and onsite abillity to custom design a piece. Hope this helps a bit and good luck!

 

[solange]

I bought my diamond on line. The vendor, Whiteflash, had the stone sent to a reputable appraiser of my choice where I could see the stone. Then, since I was having Whiteflash do the setting, Whiteflash arranged to have the appraiser ship it back to them.

When the stone was set, they emailed photos of the stone in the setting. I said I wanted it set lower and there was no problem. A few hours later, I got photos of the stone reset lower in the setting. Since the setting had been custom made to accommodate my stone, this was not a problem. Then Whiteflash sent it to their appraiser where it was examined to make certain that there had been no damage to the stone and that the stone was the same one I had selected.

I had, until that point, not paid for the stone or the setting. We wired them the money and I received the mounted stone the next morning by Overnight Federal Express. I never had any fears about the matter because I was not responsible for shipping or insuring it because it was not in my
possession while all this was being taken care of. We then called our insurance company to put a binder on the ring on the day I was receiving it.

I believe there are other vendors on Pricescope who will send a stone to an appraiser before you pay. If I had wanted to have it set elsewhere, I could have paid for the stone by bank transfer or credit card and taken it with me.

I was reluctant to have the stone set by someone else because if it had been damaged while being set, there might have been a problem. Also some insurance companies will not insure a loose stone. And, by the way, I have certainly not handled thousands of diamonds in my life but I did manage to break one.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Date: 2/12/2005 6:13:15 PM
Author: RockDoc

Date: 2/12/2005 3:28:59 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren
I guess everyone''s had different experiences- but I''ve dropped thousands of diamonds ( literally) and never once damaged one- not once.
So the danger of a consumer dropping and breaking a stone is non existant- of course they could easily loose the diamond. But there far more important reasons to buy a diamond and ring from one vendor.


For one thing, you can get a money back guarantee on the whole deal. If tyhe ring is not to your liking, the person who sold you a diamond is very likely to fix it for you.
If you bring your local jeweler a diamond you bought elsewhere, and you don''t like the ring he sets in into, will he refund your money?
As far as breakage- although I''ve never damaged a diamond by dropping it , I have had many diamonds damaged by setters.
Same scenario- you bring a loose diamond purchased elsewhere to the jeweler, and it''s damaged during setting- who''s responsible?


Now let''s talk about the trust issue- say you buy a mounted diamond and you fear the seller might give you something other than what was promised.
There''s a very simple answer to that one- if you have the slightest shadow of a doubt about the seller, find another.
I don''t see how a person suspicious of a seller is protecting themselves by having it sent to an appraiser first. If the seller is not trustworthy, he can claim the appraiser switched the diamond.
In terms of coverage- any diamodn dealer worth their salt will issue the appriaisal prior to shipping on request. This way the consumer can ''pre-insure'' the item.

Therefore my advice to gshanks is: Find a seller you are comfortable with- someone who can sell you a diamond alreay set into a ring.
Have the seller issue an appraisal identifying what you''ve bought. This is a goiod idea even if the diamond has a GIA report- the seller''s appraisal should identify any side stones, and the mounting
Then it''s a simple matter to take it to a local appraiser to confirm that you did indeed get what you were promised.
Also- Make sure you get the money back guarantee- if the ring arrives and you don''t like it, why bother wasting time finding out what an appraiser thinks?

David

With respect for what you''ve written I have a far different opinion than you do.

Your opinion is obviously based on the postion of being a seller not a buyer.

A seller of a diamond CANNOT be the appraiser too. His opinion is on of self interest. The report is also biased. So while a seller can write a description of purchase where in the report it is made crystal clear that it is prepared by an interested party with the individual details of the purchase. This is fine, but to write an appraisal? NADA!

An appraisal MUST be independently prepared, and the appraiser has to be disinterested in the transactions.

Then how many sellers issue a report that says '' We Certify'' etc. when in fact the person preparing the report isn''t certified himself. The bulk of appraisals I''ve seen are written by people who have NO TRAINING, pr education in valuation. Further many reports attesting to the gemolgical quality are made from many who have no education or training in gemology.

How many sellers value an article they''ve sold for more than they have sold it for without disclosing the actual sales price and explaining in the report why the difference? This is a material fact, and if the differences are great the insurance company has the right to not pay the cliam.

I won''t provide names here, but one of the prominent sellers on the internet who is well know on this forum had an instance of damage. He had the consumer''s money and deducted a fee for the recutting of the stone, the weight loss, the cost of getting new lab reports. So while it isn''t common to have a problem the portential is one that exists. In this matter we don''t know who was responsible for damaging the stone. Certainly the seller was justified in charing the consumer for the repairs, weight loss value, and the costs of recertifying the diamond. Needless to say the consumer was furious, according to the seller.

Further, I''m not advocating that is a commonly occuring happening. In fact its quite rare...but it can happen. A diamond in the hands of a novice could be risky. Your comparison that you''ve never had one break while handling is a very different environment from a novice. How good are the tweezers being used? How thin is the girdle where even minor chipping could occur? As I''m sure you''ll agree that if the pressure on a loose stone is too strong, the diamond can fly out of the tweezers, and ricochet to almost any place. Even Lord Summerisle confirmed that in his post just before this.

Diamond labs and dealers plan the diamond examination areas to avoid this happening as much as possible, but a consumer who has the diamond on the kitchen table, don''t have the controlled environment that we do.

Would you buy a home and let the seller do the home insepction as well as the appraisal ? Why should a diamond seller feel that he is justified in writing valuation reports and gemological reports without the proper qualifications? Worse yet, why would a consumer do this?

While most sellers do stand behind their refund policies, the greatest number of stores don''t make refunds. In many local jewelry exchanges here, almost 100% of the jewelers have signs... NO REFUNDS or NO REFUNDS - Credit or Exchanges ONLY. Some don''t even have signs but stamp it on the sales slips, so the consumer doesn''t find out about it until after the purchase is made.


The problem is we have no laws state by state that prohibit this practice. There just aren''t enough professional independent appraiser to meet the demand, so the insurance companies are ''forced'' to acceot almost anything so they can sell a policy.

I approach my thinking from the position of being a consumer.

Regards

Rockdoc

Rocdoc- we''re actually pretty close in opinion.
As far as people who''ve never handled a diamond recieving a loose stone- we both agree, it''s a risky idea. As you point out, a novice is likely to squeeeze to hard and ....ping.....where IS THAT DIAMOND??????
SELLERS APPRAISING THEIR OWN MERCHANDISE: WE agree here too. Any dealers "in house" appraisal should be veiwed with caution- we agree.
BUT- IF you have a seller that can actually identify the item accurately, does that not make the independant appraiser''s job far easier? Although any appriasal form has legaleeze to say the the no on is really bound by this appraisal- it still puts a seller in the position of declaring what they are offering.
If a seller could accurately describe the item for the consumer, it makes everyone''s job easier- and keeps the selller on his toes.
If I''m bordering between VS2, and SI1 when I''m appraising our stuff- I always call it SI1.
It''s better to have independant appriasers say the stone is actually better than I claimed. But that''s my opinion only- yes, my opinion as a selller.
WE AGREEE that abusing this "In House" certificate thing is going on all too often. I''ve heard too many stories of folks buying a $2000 1.00 J/VS1- with a "certificate"- when the price is too low, the diamond usually turns out to be a lesser quality. But remember, the sellers that offer M color stones as "certified" J color stones eventually shoot themselves in the foot- precisely becasue they "appraise" the item.


WE AGREE- Any diamond purchase made under a "NO REFUND" policy really can hurt the consumer. It''s true that many stores have a no refund policy. If I weanted to buy in a store with such a policy, I''d ask to talk to mgmt and see if they''d alter the policy for my sale. If not, I''d walk.


It''s true, I do think like a seller- but I am also a buyer, so I keep that at the forefront.


Amy- Congrats on the new diamond!

 

[RockDoc]

David...

Thanks for the reply..

RE: Appraiser switching the stone. Every diamond that comes here is gemprinted. I also film this process as well as the opening of the box with my video camera. So if a seller makes that sort of claim against me, he has one hell of a job substanciating his claim.

Consumers don''t do this as a rule, and are not prepared to face such an accusation. I am ! Gemprint has been through criminal appeals court and the Court accepted Gemprint, which in that state made it law. (that state was California).


Appraisals by the seller.

If a seller is qualified to accurately describe the item he sells, then a statement issued to the consumer and his insurance company is acceptable. But the seller should NOT title the document APPRAISAL! That is the point I was making.

When your grading is different than the labs or the appraiser.

I have a stone here now, that the major lab graded it a VS-2. In my opinion it is a VS-1. To ignore this without explanation in the appraisal report hurts the insured, as if he has a claim, he''ll potentially get a diamond of lesser quality than the one he had. So in your opinion, the lab''s grading should be replaced by the appraiser.

There we have a slight difference in opinion. If nothing is said about the lab''s lower grading, then the issue of betterment could cause problems later. So in these situations I disclose what the lab siad, but explain in a very detailed narrative statement the reason for my dissenting opinion, and provide any evidence to back it up in my report. I value the stone as a VS-1 as replacing it as a VS -2 wouldn''t make the insured whole in the event of a loss.

Most jewelers who don''t have appraisal education would consider how to approach this. Valuation takes some knowledge of insurance, and a lot of logic and common sense, and the ability to define this properly. Then you''ve properly informed the consumers as well as the insurance company, provided a proper explanation and avoided any chance of betterment issues if their is a claim.

Blasting off out of tweezers.....

A lot here depends on the contact the diamond made (hard object) how it hit the object etc when it is "blasted off". Although they aren''t "perfect" I do like and use locking tweezers, but the pressure on the stone has to be "just right".

Mircroscope tweezers which are spring loaded can be a real night mare. I have the ones that have closed sides as well an those that have open sides.

I''m sure plenty of us that do this on a daily basis have some amazing tales of the flying diamonds, and how far they can go.
I can think of some that are really humorous, but until you find the stone... you have turbo stress syndrome.

I''ll get off my soapbox now.

Rockdoc

 

[RockDoc]

Hey Steve

What was the damage to the stone, after rolling over it with the chair?

Did it end up on the floor with the culet up, and you rolled over the culet?

Was it reparable?

What size was it?

Rockdoc

 

[solange]

I had a pear shaped stone and I suddenly looked down and the stone was gone. I am wondering how this could have happened because I did not bump it against anything. I know it was unbroken a few minutes before because someone had looked at it and admired it. I was at a wedding and I was seated when this happened

We managed to find the larger part of the stone. A number of people helped us look for it. We could not find the point. It was my engagement ring and the insurance company wanted to cut it down to a much smaller size. They tried to replace it but their jeweler showed me stones I found unacceptable.This was many years ago when there was not that much information about diamonds. But since I still had part of my stone, I could see that what he was showing me was of darker color with very visible inclusions and very poor proportions. And he wanted me to add money to the bargain. When I rejected every stone, he finally notified the insurance company that he did not want to work with me.

It was a small insurance company and they finally agreed to pay me and I gave them the part of the stone I had and the setting.

 

[Bagpuss]

Small clear items are pigs to find once you''ve dropped them. dh is always dropping his plastic lenses. Once he dropped one in the bathroom and we searched for ages but to no avail! He was just about to take the wash hand basin apart

when, by some miracle, I noticed that it had landed right behind the tap but on the circle of chrome. It was all but invisible.

A lost lens is bad enough, but a lost diamond - I''d have a pink fit.