Obama''s Speech....

[MoonWater]

BRAVO KAREN!!!!

There is no way I could have broken that down as eloquently as you did (hell, I just learned a thing or two myself). Besides, I didn't want my "aggressiveness" to offend anyone lol. Not to mention, some of what you wrote was covered on page 2 and this person claimed they went through all the posts. LMAO!!! It still amazes me what people believe about the founding of our nation.

 

[ksinger]

Well, I realize I probably opened a can of worms by replying like that - I do go on a tear every now and then. Not very often though. Anyway, somehow addressing the unconscious tyranny of the religious majority seemed appropriate in a thread that is largely about discrimination and preferential treatment.

Besides being a history buff and politics junkie all on my own, my history comments are usually vetted by my American/World History teacher FI. He comes in pretty handy now and again...

edit - HOWEVER, I DO take credit for the test question at the end. That was all mine. I probably should have gone into teaching too....I'm eggheaded enough!

 

[MoonWater]

Well I'm extremely partial to history buffs and political junkies as my future husband is both! He also doesn't take kindly to people spewing myths as facts. I could listen to him talk all day.

Of course, me being biased at all, I thought your test comment was hilarious!

 

[ladypirate]

First off, Karen, that was FANTASTIC! Thanks for being so eloquent.

Secondly, speaking of the founding of our nation, has anyone been watching the John Adams miniseries on HBO? I understand it's dramatized, but I've been learning a ton about the early days of the US. Makes me want to actually go study it properly (as opposed to an overview AP US History course I took in high school). Granted, grad school for history is probably not the most lucrative idea...

 

[coatimundi_org]

Karen, that was great!!

I love how you point out that the pilgrims were actually separatists. The Scrooby Separatists were an intolerant bunch indeed. They remind me of many paranoid sects of the Christian faith who seclude themselves, because they cannot tolerate anyone else's beliefs. They didn't come to America to get along with others. They left England, and then Holland, because they wanted to isolate themselves from others, as they did not want to assimilate into Dutch culture. They wanted to be left alone, which is fine in itself, but they pushed their beliefs onto others and could not abide other ways of thinking.

One could argue that this country was founded on religious intolerance. Not much has changed, eh?

SCROOBY Dooby DOO!
(the sole purpose of this response was so I could write that--heh-heh)

 

[MoonWater]

LOL!! Coati you are cracking me up. When I first read "Scrooby" I immediately did "Scrooby Dooby Doo" in my head.

Ok, since we''re talking about religious freedom, I just have to post this:

Ill. State Rep goes off on atheist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=___yDV9K6uk

Keith Olbermann names Ill. State Rep the Worst person: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T35_vQms4Ck

After lots of pressure, the Ill. State Rep apologizes to the atheist: http://robsherman.com/ His site isn''t laid out in a way to take you directly to what he said so here you are:

Yesterday, State Representative Monique Davis (D-Chicago) called me from the Floor of the Illinois House of Representatives to apologize for what she had said to me at last Wednesday''s hearing of the House State Government Administration Committee. Rep. Davis had said, among other things, that atheism is dangerous to the progression of the State of Illinois, that children should not be allowed to know that my philosophy (atheism) exists, and that I had no right to testify to any Illinois legislative committee because the People of Illinois believe in God. She concluded by ordering me to "Get out of that seat!"

Some bloggers have asked what I said to instigate Rep. Davis'' comments. I was testifying about why the Governor''s proposal to donate one million tax dollars to Pilgrim Baptist Church is unconstitutional. Specifically, I was reading, in a very calm manner, from my laptop computer, the words in the March 4th "Latest Update," which appear below and which explains why the proposal to give money to the church is unconstitutional.

Rep. Davis said that she had been upset, earlier in the day, to learn that a twenty-second and twenty-third Chicago Public School student this school year had been shot to death that morning. She said that it was wrong for her to take out her anger, frustrations and emotions on me, and that she apologized to me.

I told her that her explanation was reasonable and that I forgave her. I also suggested that if she really was concerned about public school students dying needlessly, she should look into helping me to get passed legislation to get lap and shoulder seat belts on school busses that is pending in the House and in the Senate.

She thanked me for forgiving her and said that she would look into those two pieces of legislation.

Rep. Davis'' apology was a direct result of the pressure put on her by the thousands of bloggers from around the globe who commented on the various news sites and the hundreds of people from around the world who contacted her office by telephone or e-mail. Each and every one of you really did make a difference. Your comments didn''t just go out into thin air and get forgotten about and ignored. By each one of you taking the time to carefully craft your intelligent message, pressure built up on Rep. Davis. Meanwhile, more pressure built as additional news outlets picked up the story, including the Countdown show with Keith Olbermann on MSNBC, which gave Rep. Davis the Worst Person in the World award; the Capitol Fax in Springfield, Illinois; and a half-hour appearance on WTDY radio in Madison, Wisconsin. Blogs and direct contact with the offending party really do make a difference. They may not get read everywhere, but they are read by people who matter, so I thank each one of you for your efforts.

So yeah, freedom of religion, as long as you believe what we believe.

 

[ksinger]

Pshaw! Rank amateur. I live in the land of Sally Kerns, who did NOT apologize, and is still going at it - now with her merry band of bigo...supporters.

Go to Google News and look up Sally Kerns. You will be treated to a delightful snootful of a mind that is so narrow, a quark couldn''t get into it. Heck she made the national news, and still is, to our chagrin here in Oklahoma. There really ARE people here who will neither bash you with the Bible, nor tie you gay son to a fence post to die. People that have ALL their original teeth, and college degrees of all stripes. That have actual shelves of books with serious titles - that have been READ no less! However, THOSE folks are not the ones who typically make news around here. After tornadoes will you see interviewed anyone who can string together an entire sentence?? HECK NO! They go out and interview the gal who is sporting the ancient perm that is stringy and unkempt, is clearly missing ALL her molars, is 50 lbs overweight, braless and wearing her husband''s old wifebeater. Or we make the news with the likes of Kern.

It''s no wonder people have a skewed view of the place. Oh, and the guy she replaced in the legislature was cut from the same cloth. Scary as hell.

Anyway, here''s a snippet of the stuff you''ll find...

"Kern made the comments to a Republican group where they were recorded and posted on the video sharing Web site YouTube by the Washington, D.C.-based Gay & Lesbian Victory Fund. Among other things, she said homosexuality poses a bigger threat to the U.S. than terrorism.

A former teacher, Kern also said gays are teaching young public school children that their lifestyle is acceptable.

"We''re not teaching facts and knowledge anymore. We''re teaching indoctrination," Kern said in the recorded comments. "They are going after our young children, as young as two years of age, to try to teach them that the homosexual lifestyle is an acceptable lifestyle."

Marlett said there are limits to a person''s right to free speech.

"I do not believe people have the right to incite violence with their free speech," he said. "Free speech can be provocative and it can be considered hateful by some. We have to treat people with dignity and respect."

Kern, who has rejected demands by gay and lesbian groups that she apologize for her anti-gay remarks, said she is not concerned about Marlett''s candidacy.

"That''s the political process so I have no problem," Kern said. "I''ll do what needs to be done and the people will decide. That''s the process."

Voters in Kern''s district have traditionally supported socially conservative candidates. Originally elected in 2004, Kern was unopposed for re-election two years ago.

She succeeded former state Rep. Bill Graves, currently a district judge in Oklahoma County who was considered one of the state''s most conservative lawmakers during his more than 20 years in the Legislature. "

 

[MoonWater]

Hahaha Kern! Yes I've heard of her. Ellen responded to her on her show: (ETA the link no longer works. I'm on my way out the door but I'll find Ellen's comments, funny gal). I feel for you Karen, certain parts of the country do get a bad rep due to people such as this woman. She is absolutely vile.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 4/11/2008 2:29:42 PM
Author: coatimundi
Karen, that was great!!

I love how you point out that the pilgrims were actually separatists. The Scrooby Separatists were an intolerant bunch indeed. They remind me of many paranoid sects of the Christian faith who seclude themselves, because they cannot tolerate anyone else''s beliefs. They didn''t come to America to get along with others. They left England, and then Holland, because they wanted to isolate themselves from others, as they did not want to assimilate into Dutch culture. They wanted to be left alone, which is fine in itself, but they pushed their beliefs onto others and could not abide other ways of thinking.

One could argue that this country was founded on religious intolerance. Not much has changed, eh?

SCROOBY Dooby DOO!
(the sole purpose of this response was so I could write that--heh-heh)

amen!

movie zombie

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 4/12/2008 1:38:24 PM
Author: movie zombie

Date: 4/11/2008 2:29:42 PM

Author: coatimundi

Karen, that was great!!

I love how you point out that the pilgrims were actually separatists. The Scrooby Separatists were an intolerant bunch indeed. They remind me of many paranoid sects of the Christian faith who seclude themselves, because they cannot tolerate anyone else''s beliefs. They didn''t come to America to get along with others. They left England, and then Holland, because they wanted to isolate themselves from others, as they did not want to assimilate into Dutch culture. They wanted to be left alone, which is fine in itself, but they pushed their beliefs onto others and could not abide other ways of thinking.

One could argue that this country was founded on religious intolerance. Not much has changed, eh?

SCROOBY Dooby DOO!

(the sole purpose of this response was so I could write that--heh-heh)

amen!

movie zombie

Very well said everyone!!

(I also thought, "Scrooby Dooby doo...where are you" when I read that.)

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/11/2008 12:38:44 PM
Author: ladypirate
First off, Karen, that was FANTASTIC! Thanks for being so eloquent.


Secondly, speaking of the founding of our nation, has anyone been watching the John Adams miniseries on HBO? I understand it''s dramatized, but I''ve been learning a ton about the early days of the US. Makes me want to actually go study it properly (as opposed to an overview AP US History course I took in high school). Granted, grad school for history is probably not the most lucrative idea...

Unfortunately I don''t have HBO. Do you know if they will release it on DVD? I''d be interested in watching.

 

[rainbowtrout]

K...
I just read through most of this (which I shouldn't have done, bad me, no time)

BRAVO KAREN. That is nearly EXACTLY what I was thinking.


I would say that I feel Fisher was not "raging" or being innappropriate in expressing her opinions, she's a nice gal all in all. She has a right to not like Obama, this thread is not Obama-Only.


RE: some of the Jewish/Obama issues. We just had a talk on this at my temple last Fri. It's a double bind, between the somewhat fraught legacy of Jews and the civil rights mov't, and Obama's, yes, not as hawkish stance on Israel as McCain or Clinton. One interesting thing said was this: the Jews have become very comfortable with the Protestant majority because it is a known quantity, and changing the status quo with an untried signifier like Obama is scary, especially when he comes smelling of "Otherness" (i.e. many still think he is Muslim).

 

[AGBF]

Personal issues have kept my computer time at a minimum, so I have only been lurking in this thread, but I wanted to let all of you know that I find it very interesting!

Deborah

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 4/13/2008 11:52:30 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/11/2008 12:38:44 PM

Author: ladypirate

First off, Karen, that was FANTASTIC! Thanks for being so eloquent.



Secondly, speaking of the founding of our nation, has anyone been watching the John Adams miniseries on HBO? I understand it''s dramatized, but I''ve been learning a ton about the early days of the US. Makes me want to actually go study it properly (as opposed to an overview AP US History course I took in high school). Granted, grad school for history is probably not the most lucrative idea...

Unfortunately I don''t have HBO. Do you know if they will release it on DVD? I''d be interested in watching.

I''d imagine they would--keep an eye out for it! Paul Giametti and Laura Linney are awesome in it.

 

[coatimundi_org]

re: the topic of Adams--

A great read is, Inventing a Nation (Washington, Adams, Jefferson) by Gore Vidal.

 

[MoonWater]

More on the race front:

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/04/13/lanny-davis-civil-dialogue-on-the-issue-of-reverend-wright/

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/14/2008 2:10:37 PM
Author: coatimundi
re: the topic of Adams--

A great read is, Inventing a Nation (Washington, Adams, Jefferson) by Gore Vidal.

Gore Vidal? Ok, on my wishlist it goes!

 

[movie zombie]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-oped0404wrightapr03,0,2392831,print.story

like it or not, Rev. Wright is a patriot.......why am i not surprised that this gets overlooked?!.


movie zombie

 

[MoonWater]

movie zombie, didn''t you get the memo? true patriots can not criticize their country!!! lol

 

[movie zombie]

but chicken hawks can drive it into the ground..........apparently the Rev Wright didn''t get the memo either.

movie zombie

 

[ksinger]

And for no other reason but "simply breathtaking" or "unreal", I post here today, the summation - the one-line reason that so much is wrong with America. It was in a piece I read this morning. ''Twould be interesting to see if anyone, (no cheating!) can guess what topic it applies to. There are so many that would work...

“There is nothing wrong with it — it’s not illegal,”

 

[ladypirate]

Ooo! I want to play, I want to play! Jeopardy style:

What is torture?

I have no idea, but this sounds like something the neocons (or a teenager) would say.

 

[Erin]

What is popular/celebrity idolization?

 

[diamondfan]

Anyone remember the Crusades if we are thinking about religious intolerance?

Systematic destruction, for a time under Papal authority, against non Christians.

This stuff goes back hundreds of years, unfortunately. People fleeing one place in order to be able to live as they wish is a response to such attacks. The Church was powerful and punitive to those who disobeyed.

The Pilgrims were funded by the London Company to sail to and settle in near an existing Virgina colony, but they wanted to maintain distance so as to not duplicate the scenario they were leaving. They did not see eye to eye with the church and wanted to live as they wished. They were separatists because they wanted to be separate from the Church as they did not agree with many of their ways. I guess my question is, I do not see the term Separatist as entirely negative, it was a function by which they came to a new world. They had to physically leave in order to live the way they wished to. What should they have done? Stayed there and be dictated to by the Church? No offense, but in many religions, especially the more extreme factions, there is intolerance towards others groups in some form or another. OUR way is the right way, the way that will lead to X or Y. Those who do not believe in or follow OUR way will not achieve X or Y. Anytime a group collectively feels oppressed and goes off to their own corner, they are bound to throw off that which constrained them and implement their own rules and beliefs, albeit rules that might be constraining to a group with yet a DIFFERENT ideology. It is not perfect by any means, to have all these different views and beliefs...but yet, this is where the world is currently.

I think we have a long way to go in this country, and the world in general, toward tolerance-on many levels. And I agree that the tone, and not the CONTENT of this thread, is what I find offensive. There is some amazing and informative data in this thread. There is a lack, however, of allowing for different views and expressing of those views.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Yes, I have to say I agree with Diamondfan on this one--while I myself enjoy Obama as a candidate, I do feel among my friends who are Obama supporters, and in discussions (such as this thread) that the Obama God Can Do No Wrong.

And that, my friends, is what we call a cult of personality. And we all know how dangerous that one is.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 4/16/2008 11:28:05 AM
Author: ladypirate
Ooo! I want to play, I want to play! Jeopardy style:


What is torture?


I have no idea, but this sounds like something the neocons (or a teenager) would say.

DINGDINGDING

"History will not judge this kindly."

um, thanks John.

WHOOPSY!

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/16/2008 6:12:33 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
Yes, I have to say I agree with Diamondfan on this one--while I myself enjoy Obama as a candidate, I do feel among my friends who are Obama supporters, and in discussions (such as this thread) that the Obama God Can Do No Wrong.

And that, my friends, is what we call a cult of personality. And we all know how dangerous that one is.

Ardent support for a candidate is a far cry from being a "cult of personality". There are many rabid Hillary supporters too, of my acquaintance. Does that make them whirly-eyed Moony-esque sycophants? I doubt it. And characterizing Obama supporters as such is more than a touch of hyperbole.

I DO think that too many people, when dealing in politics and elections, take sides, and because our society for some reason decries changing ones mind as "waffling", and never reassess their ideas again.

A friend of mine - a dear person - but with whom I discuss not much substantive, since he doesn't care much for things that require research, study, or self-awareness or reading, said snarkily and defensively to me after the Dems won back congress in 2006, "Well, I guess that you've got control now, so well just see how YOU do." Number one I was taken aback because we don't discuss my politics at all, and he knows little of where I stand on real issues, and two, I thought what is this? Freakin' football??

I personally don't think Obama is god, but I do think he is not yet so entrenched in the political landscape, or so old as to have lost his idealism in the mud of Washington. He also doesn't OWE as many people as Clinton, who is going to spend alot of time paying off debts to supporters. I support any candidate these days with a healthy dose of skepticism and cynicism. It's easy to promise, but hard to execute those promises. The difference is that McCain and Hillary have shown time and again that they have no idealism left. McCain has lobbyists as his top advisors and trots out WWII solutions in a world that has move far beyond such things, and Hillary is just flat out disingenuous all the time. I can stand to watch her about as much as I can stand to watch our current royal.

IMO, this once-great and once-respected country - is a country which has sold it's soul, and laws, and privacy, and constitutional protections for the illusion of security, and I truly believe we do not have much time left to swing back before the changes become permanant and we have no chance of return.

I will repost what I said in a previous post:

The reason I support Obama is I see him as the ONLY candidate likely to restore the constitutional balances and actually hand BACK some of the powers that this administration has collected in its mission to create a unitary executive that is above the law. First and foremost to me is the health of the underpinnings of our form of government. The rest will follow as it will. Not that the economy or the war are to be ignored, but without the rule of law being upheld at the highest levels, what we do at the lower ones will be pretty irrelevant.

 

[movie zombie]

and i don''t even support obama..........i just dislike the media misrepresentation and lack of investigative reporting which results in soundbites that can never be retrieved.

movie zombie

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/16/2008 11:28:05 AM
Author: ladypirate
Ooo! I want to play, I want to play! Jeopardy style:

What is torture?

I have no idea, but this sounds like something the neocons (or a teenager) would say.

Hah! All wrong! You all thought it was written by John Yoo, but NO!!!

In an article in the NYTimes on the obscene amounts being earned by top hedge fund managers....

"One manager, John Paulson, made $3.7 billion last year.....Even on Wall Street, where money is the ultimate measure of success, the size of the winnings makes some uneasy. (neck pain perhaps?? KR) “There is nothing wrong with it — it’s not illegal,” said William H. Gross, the chief investment officer of the bond fund Pimco. “But it’s ugly.”
The richest hedge fund managers keep getting richer — fast. To make it into the top 25 of Alpha’s list, the industry standard for hedge fund pay, a manager needed to earn at least $360 million last year, more than 18 times the amount in 2002. The median American family, by contrast, earned $60,500 last year."

I couldn''t help but think as I read this, and others like it in recent months about the rapidly growing disparity in earnings in the US, that this is just the kind of imbalance that got the French aristocracy relieved of their heads.

The article finished with another great line:

"And Mr. Gross, the fund manager, warned that the widening divide among the richest and everyone else is cause for worry.

“Like at the end of the Gilded Age and the Roaring Twenties, we are going the other way,” Mr. Gross said. “We are clearly in a period of excess, and we have to swing back to the middle or the center cannot hold."

 

[ksinger]

Sorry for the double post, I cleaned up a grammatical error and a typo and POOF! Two posts! I may know what I think about politics and history but I''m a doofus posting on forums, apparently.