Obama''s Speech....

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 2:59:36 PM
Author: coatimundi
Fisherofmengirly,

Lemme guess, Ron Paul''s your guy, right? That''s what I''ve gleaned from your posts so far. (though, you won''t come out and say it.)

One of the reasons you seem to dislike Obama is because of certain people who support him.

We all know that political candidates cannot control what is said by others or who supports them.

Ron Paul is a good example of this. He has a very large Neo Nazi/White Supremacist following which he has denounced. If you follow your own logic about Obama and his ''controversial supporters,'' can''t you apply the same to Ron Paul?

And the issue about the flag?

Isn''t this country about the freedom to choose to do whatever we desire?

It''s a free country, ''ain''t'' it?

You''re talking about taking away freedoms. Not holding them intact. Very anti-American.

That is, if Ron Paul''s your guy.

Last I checked, Ron Paul wasn''t a member of a church (or an ex-member of any affiliation) that was known for anything negative regarding any race of this world.

You''re right, a candidate doesn''t choose who follow him, but they do choose where they go and what they affiliate themselves with. Huge difference in the two.

There are areas where I agree with Ron Paul and areas where I do not. Same is true for most people, when asked about how one feels toward any one candidate.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 7:01:40 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 4/3/2008 6:53:30 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 6:17:21 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 4/3/2008 6:02:54 PM
Author: MoonWater




Surfgirl, would you mind me asking what you do for a living (or rather why you are in Uganda)? It sounds as if you get exposed to a lot more than just American culture. I feel like people, likely in your field, or in Sociology or Anthropology have a very different view about American pride.

I believe Fisher is a social worker of some sort.

Ok, but I''m talking about a Sociology degree, not a Social Work degree.

I was a Sociology major for a while - I eventually switched my major - but the Sociology classes were my favorite.

Yeah, I love Sociology. Social Work seems too technical for me. My best friend is a social worker for the government. It''s a tough job.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 8:47:25 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 12:54:18 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly
If you agree that it does matter as to whom a leader calls upon as a comrade, then I wonder why you ask how I would deduce that Obama doesn''t stand for the America that I love. Okay, firstly, the man seems to have an issue with the country''s flag, which is random, I admit, but still doesn''t sit well with me when choosing the main leader of this country. When asked about this, he stated that his patriotism is shown by telling Americans what he thinks will make this country great. Um, okay. That''s a profound statement. So, what does he think will make this country great?

I''m still wondering how you believe Obama doesn''t stand for ''the America that you love'' but maybe that''s because I have no idea ''what America'' it is that you love. I''m utterly confused. The America I love allows freedom of speech, expression, and religion. I''m not a huge fan of the flag either, hell, I don''t do the pledge or national anthem. Here is something I wrote in another thread on this board: ''When I was 12 years old I officially stopped singing the national anthem and doing the pledge of allegiance. By highschool I caught a lot of flack from teachers and school administration but stood my ground. My 9th grade English teacher forced me to write a paper about why I wouldn''t pledge or otherwise face punishment. I thought it was quite rude that other kids could cite religious beliefs for not pledging but I couldn''t cite a simple disbelief in the pledge. However, after writing the paper my teacher honored my request not to stand up and pledge. My reason? I do not believe in the pledge of allegiance. As a young black female I did not feel the country honored the words. I said that the day that the country truly became one nation with liberty and justice for all, I would proudly stand. I still do not believe the country has done this and I still don''t pledge or sing the national anthem. I do not believe that the lack of me doing so makes me any less American. Nor do I think it should be a qualification for the leader of the country. The job of the leader should be to make sure this country lives up to its words, i.e. the pledge and the Constitution.''

I''m not saying that not acknowledging the American flag makes a person ''anti-American.'' I don''t believe that at all. It''s more a matter of a lot of things, culminating together. Some people say anyone against the war is ''anti-Amercia;'' I disagree. I''m anti-the-war-going-on-this-long, anti-the-reason-we-remain-there-for-seven-years, but not anti-the soldiers who are there, doing their job (even if they don''t support why they are there themselves). I think the Wright issue has already been addressed, and I''m sorry, but he has been a member for far too long to say he didn''t know anything about the literal crap that was being spewed by that church, and that is a HUGE issue (and by the way, not a black/white issue).

See that''s the thing, is IS a black/white issue. Many African-Americans don''t take the whole flag and patriotism thing as seriously as most white people. It has A LOT to do with our history in this country. It has A LOT to do with the hypocrisy of this country''s words v. this country''s action. And I''m still trying to figure out why people are flipping out over the Wright thing because no one has yet offered me what it is that he said which was anti-America. Was it ''God Damn America?'' Did anyone read the commentary about that sermon and what was said before and after? Probably not. Or was it something else I''m unaware of? This is why I ask questions of people that claim Obama stands for something when I''ve seen absolutely no proof of such. It just seems like a rehash of old rumors. Btw, did you read the great Tim Wise article posted about Obama and Wright. It''s quite thorough and IMO right on target. Here you are: http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/NationalLies.html

I think his wife has made ridiculous comments regarding this country, and I''m sorry, but who in this country would say the things she does? It''s ridiculous, and maybe a spouse shouldn''t be a reflection of a candidate, but they are. We all know how influential spouses are, particularly in political offices (think back to the first go round with Clinton!).

Oh really, what ridiculous comments did she make? I don''t want to assume what you''re referring to, again, maybe you know something I don''t. But I seriously hope you are not talking about when she said something along the lines of, ''it''s the first time in my adult lifetime that I am really proud of my country.'' Because I, as a black female, knew EXACTLY what she meant and felt there was nothing anti-patriotic about it. Not to mention the word ''really'' is a qualifier everyone chose to ignore. You are talking about a woman who has work with some of the poorest folks in this country. Someone who has, along with her husband, turned down extremely lucrative jobs in order to help people less fortunately than themselves. Maybe she''s proud because the country is finally, in her 44 years, trying to give the country back to the people. But that''s just my guess, if you aren''t talking about this instance, feel free fill me in.

I''m proud of America and proud to be an American, without Obama''s change.

I''m happy for you.

He needs to be careful of the comments he makes. If he''s not proud of America as it stands, fine. But he''s not about to be anyone I support for being a leader of this country. Even when my country doesn''t stand for EVERYTHING which I stand for, I''m still DANG proud to be a citizen of this country, and I defy anyone to state a better place to live. I mean, denouncing the great parts of this country in order to speak of ''change'' that is nothing more than spouting off randomness to a crowd of cheers, without expressing any true plans is ridiculous. Every country has issues, but USA is still by far, the only place I''d want to live.

Ok, now what on Earth are you talking about? This is why I ask for examples and NOT opinions because you are losing me. What great parts of this country did he denounce? And Obama seems to be extremely proud of America so again, I''m not sure where you are getting this. Or are you basing this on your opinion of Wright and Michelle (which I still think doesn''t prove they aren''t proud), in which case, I''m not sure why Obama can''t have a different feeling toward this country, based on his own personal experiences in life, that are different than Michelle''s and Wrights. They certainly each grew up differently. The great thing though, is that you get to learn about and appreciate the experience of others when you don''t shut them out of your life over a few comments you disagree with. I have friends and family members that have strong opinions I don''t agree with. I''ve kept them around for 20 years or more, and no one would dare say I shared those particular views.

Anyway, the heart of it for me is that I cannot support a man who was a member of Wright''s church for years. Okay, he was a MEMBER and of course he heard comments that were ''controversial.'' Um, more than controversial. And he can state over and over that he didn''t agree with comments made, as everyone who attends a church hears at times. I''ve never been to a church that expresses that sort of hatred, and if I ever did, I sure wouldn''t be a member of it and not wait to withdrawl from the connection to that church at such time that my affiliation that that person became a ''hot spot.''

Here comes that black/white issue again. I don''t think he spewed hatred. But again, I''ll ask you what comments from Wright are you referring to. I would love to have some quotations, maybe it''s something I haven''t heard/read. I also don''t think its a safe assumption to assume that a member of a church has heard every single sermon. I think it''s quite easy to be aware of how Wright feels about things without hearing him present them in that way. I certainly wasn''t shocked by it but then I grew up in a black inner city neighborhood. Also, to my knowledge, Obama hasn''t withdrawn his connection from the church. Nor has he withdrawn his connection from his friend. He stood by his beliefs, even when it was inconvenient to do so, and tried to discuss why Wright felt this way which has a lot to do with his race and his generation. But people want to pretend to be colorblind as if race has nothing to do with it.

In addition, Jesse Jackson, Jr. has also made ridiculous comments and I''m sorry, but Obama just has so many racially charged people who are his supporters and affiliates, who have been such for YEARS. I don''t think the ''change'' he is seeking is anything of benefit to this country. At all.

So you are basing all of your opinions of Obama on his surrogates?

And I''m not making it a race issue. I think it should be nothing of the sort. His affiliates have done so. Time and time again.

But you don''t need to make it a race issue, because it IS a race issue. That''s the problem. People pretending race has nothing to do with it, when if they would realize that race and racism are a LARGE part of Wright''s opinions (and I wouldn''t doubt Michelle''s either going to a ''good'' school where she was in .the minority), they could probably pause, understand the man''s view IN CONTEXT and get over it

Whether or not you salute the flag or take pride in its colors and what it stands for is up to you. You''re not running for the presidency, and therefore, how you choose to react to the flag doesn''t matter to me. A presidential candidate is a different story, however.

****

I haven''t found anything that Wright has said to be anything I would like to have any president of this country be in support of.

I am having a hard time getting my computer to load the site you included regarding this topic, but once I can get it to work, I will look it over.

****
As for Obama''s wife, she''s not given herself a very positive attitude at all, and again, a person is known by those they choose to spend time with and affiliate with. Such is the way things go.

****

And yes, people (particularly public, political people) are connected to those they affiliate with, positives and negatives combined.

****
Wright can have whatever views he wants. You''re right; this is America. I don''t have to support a president who supports him, however.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 9:08:15 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 8:07:17 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly
I do think that being a communicative person who is capable of making good speeches is important to Americans in general. High charisma is very appealing. I''m not stating, nor have I ever stated, that Obama isn''t doing these things. I just would like to hear some of his actual plans put into those speeches. When a person states that a speech was really good, or really inspirational, but can''t define anything regarding a person''s platform, that is something that speaks highly of a person''s charisma, because they don''t have go deeper when people are just hearing the message of ''change'' without much more behind it.


This isn''t stating anything negative about anyone. It''s just stating what is, what has been, and probably what will continue.

Well not everyone wants plans in speeches, I know I don''t I think it''s boring. Also, there are plenty of politicians with supporters that don''t know jack about their policies, it''s not something only Obama suffers from. Personally, I love this Obama supporter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kica8hmSdAM

No doubt a ton of people have no clue why they support who they support. I know several who think Huckabee is "so on it" and they have no clue other than what they''ve heard on commercials or read as biased commentaries. The same for Clinton, Guliani... and on and on...

A speech can be non-boring and also hold meat. A speech can be nothing but motivational, and that''s fine, too. I still think a candidate ought to have clearly defined plans and goals for where he or she plans to take this country, however. And I think those goals and plans should be the main "point" they make when in the spotlight, rather than to be "not boring."

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 1:59:21 PM
Author: surfgirl
MoonWater, that post of yours, third up from the above, is SO on point. I just want to applaud you for laying out what is wrong with the country. And why what both Obama and his wife have said about this country doesn''t make them ''less American'' or ''anti American'' in any way. Hell, I''m totally mortified and embarrassed to admit I''m American when I''m overseas. In fact, right now I''m in Uganda working on an HIV/AIDS strategy that is desperately in need of revamping...Why? Because George Bush and his regime have inflicted untold horror on this country by basically forcing them to NOT talk about or provide condoms (tying the financial assistance to only include programs that promote abstinence or being faithful, neither of which is realistic in the local context) in a country that had one of the world''s worst HIV rates, but was able to turn things around by implementing the best HIV/AIDS approaches and whose HIV infection rates dropped dramatically because of all the excellent prevention work and condom promotion that was done in the late 80''s until 2000. Before Bush, Uganda''s HIV story was a global showcase of success. After Bush, total mess. Imagine how ''patriotic'' it feels to SEE - in person - people DYING from AIDS needlessly because the very programs that were creating amazing, wonderful change were stopped by OUR wonderful, amazing, American government. That''s why I too, feel that any change will be good for this country.

But aside from that Fisher, I really dont understand your raging posts because although you have every right to your own opinion no matter what it might be, honestly, if we could say the right things to you so that you could see why we felt Obama was the best candidate right now, I really dont think it would matter one bit because you clearly stated in the beginning of this thread that you were clearly anti-choice. So for that reason alone, would you really, honestly, ever vote for a Democrat or even a Republican who was anti-choice? Because if the answer is no, then what''s the point of even posting about all of this? I''m really genuinely curious...

Haha... I wasn''t aware I was creating "raging posts."

I don''t want anyone to say the "right" things to me. I want someone, anyone, to tell me what Obama stands for.

When you say I''m anti-choice, does that mean pro-life? You''re right I am. That doesn''t mean I''m anti-choice, though, as I believe there are many choices a person has been given in this life, and particularly, in this country.

When a person asks what a candidate "stands for" by the supporters of that candidate, is the only reason a supporter should be able to reveal them be to convince another to "vote" their way?

The point of this is to see what other have found that Obama stands for. I saw the thread, read it, and during doing such, had questions, which I posted.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 7:34:26 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Whether or not you salute the flag or take pride in its colors and what it stands for is up to you. You're not running for the presidency, and therefore, how you choose to react to the flag doesn't matter to me. A presidential candidate is a different story, however.

****

I haven't found anything that Wright has said to be anything I would like to have any president of this country be in support of.

I am having a hard time getting my computer to load the site you included regarding this topic, but once I can get it to work, I will look it over.

****
As for Obama's wife, she's not given herself a very positive attitude at all, and again, a person is known by those they choose to spend time with and affiliate with. Such is the way things go.

****

And yes, people (particularly public, political people) are connected to those they affiliate with, positives and negatives combined.

****
Wright can have whatever views he wants. You're right; this is America. I don't have to support a president who supports him, however.

1) I guess it's a good thing Obama is proud of his country and does the pledge and all that good stuff that you love.
2) That's fine and dandy, just gave you a perspective which you obviously do not understand and are unable to, oh well. I hope Tim Wise can convince you of something.
3) So, Michelle doesn't give herself a positive attitude? Or she's unpatriotic? Which is it? If you don't like her "attitude" so be it, she seems like my kinda gal. But I still don't think anything she has said or done makes her anti-American, which I thought was your point.
4) You have a right to support or criticize whomever you want. But I'm always seeking to understand perspectives different from my own and what has shaped that perception. I thought I'd offer that to you in case it help to put things into perspective for you, obviously it did not. Anything beyond this is talking in circles.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 7:46:06 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 7:34:26 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Whether or not you salute the flag or take pride in its colors and what it stands for is up to you. You''re not running for the presidency, and therefore, how you choose to react to the flag doesn''t matter to me. A presidential candidate is a different story, however.

****

I haven''t found anything that Wright has said to be anything I would like to have any president of this country be in support of.

I am having a hard time getting my computer to load the site you included regarding this topic, but once I can get it to work, I will look it over.

****
As for Obama''s wife, she''s not given herself a very positive attitude at all, and again, a person is known by those they choose to spend time with and affiliate with. Such is the way things go.

****

And yes, people (particularly public, political people) are connected to those they affiliate with, positives and negatives combined.

****
Wright can have whatever views he wants. You''re right; this is America. I don''t have to support a president who supports him, however.

1) I guess it''s a good thing Obama is proud of his country and does the pledge and all that good stuff that you love.
2) That''s fine and dandy, just gave you a perspective which you obviously do not understand and are unable to, oh well. I hope Tim Wise can convince you of something.
3) So, Michelle doesn''t give herself a positive attitude? Or she''s unpatriotic? Which is it? If you don''t like her ''attitude'' so be it, she seems like my kinda gal. But I still don''t think anything she has said or done makes her anti-American, which I thought was your point.
4) You have a right to support or criticize whomever you want. But I''m always seeking to understand perspectives different from my own and what has shaped that perception. I thought I''d offer that to you in case it help to put things into perspective, obviously it did not. Anything beyond this is talking in circles.

Hmm... okay then.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 7:48:01 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/3/2008 7:46:06 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 7:34:26 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Whether or not you salute the flag or take pride in its colors and what it stands for is up to you. You''re not running for the presidency, and therefore, how you choose to react to the flag doesn''t matter to me. A presidential candidate is a different story, however.

****

I haven''t found anything that Wright has said to be anything I would like to have any president of this country be in support of.

I am having a hard time getting my computer to load the site you included regarding this topic, but once I can get it to work, I will look it over.

****
As for Obama''s wife, she''s not given herself a very positive attitude at all, and again, a person is known by those they choose to spend time with and affiliate with. Such is the way things go.

****

And yes, people (particularly public, political people) are connected to those they affiliate with, positives and negatives combined.

****
Wright can have whatever views he wants. You''re right; this is America. I don''t have to support a president who supports him, however.

1) I guess it''s a good thing Obama is proud of his country and does the pledge and all that good stuff that you love.
2) That''s fine and dandy, just gave you a perspective which you obviously do not understand and are unable to, oh well. I hope Tim Wise can convince you of something.
3) So, Michelle doesn''t give herself a positive attitude? Or she''s unpatriotic? Which is it? If you don''t like her ''attitude'' so be it, she seems like my kinda gal. But I still don''t think anything she has said or done makes her anti-American, which I thought was your point.
4) You have a right to support or criticize whomever you want. But I''m always seeking to understand perspectives different from my own and what has shaped that perception. I thought I''d offer that to you in case it help to put things into perspective, obviously it did not. Anything beyond this is talking in circles.

Hmm... okay then.

That I "don''t understand" something which you have not explained is very curious to me.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 7:48:43 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/3/2008 7:48:01 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/3/2008 7:46:06 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 7:34:26 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Whether or not you salute the flag or take pride in its colors and what it stands for is up to you. You''re not running for the presidency, and therefore, how you choose to react to the flag doesn''t matter to me. A presidential candidate is a different story, however.

****

I haven''t found anything that Wright has said to be anything I would like to have any president of this country be in support of.

I am having a hard time getting my computer to load the site you included regarding this topic, but once I can get it to work, I will look it over.

****
As for Obama''s wife, she''s not given herself a very positive attitude at all, and again, a person is known by those they choose to spend time with and affiliate with. Such is the way things go.

****

And yes, people (particularly public, political people) are connected to those they affiliate with, positives and negatives combined.

****
Wright can have whatever views he wants. You''re right; this is America. I don''t have to support a president who supports him, however.

1) I guess it''s a good thing Obama is proud of his country and does the pledge and all that good stuff that you love.
2) That''s fine and dandy, just gave you a perspective which you obviously do not understand and are unable to, oh well. I hope Tim Wise can convince you of something.
3) So, Michelle doesn''t give herself a positive attitude? Or she''s unpatriotic? Which is it? If you don''t like her ''attitude'' so be it, she seems like my kinda gal. But I still don''t think anything she has said or done makes her anti-American, which I thought was your point.
4) You have a right to support or criticize whomever you want. But I''m always seeking to understand perspectives different from my own and what has shaped that perception. I thought I''d offer that to you in case it help to put things into perspective, obviously it did not. Anything beyond this is talking in circles.

Hmm... okay then.

That I ''don''t understand'' something which you have not explained is very curious to me.

Are you having issues with the quoting function or editing your posts?

If you feel as though I have not explained then you have not read or you have not comprehended. Seriously.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 7:51:42 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 7:48:43 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/3/2008 7:48:01 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/3/2008 7:46:06 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 7:34:26 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Whether or not you salute the flag or take pride in its colors and what it stands for is up to you. You''re not running for the presidency, and therefore, how you choose to react to the flag doesn''t matter to me. A presidential candidate is a different story, however.

****

I haven''t found anything that Wright has said to be anything I would like to have any president of this country be in support of.

I am having a hard time getting my computer to load the site you included regarding this topic, but once I can get it to work, I will look it over.

****
As for Obama''s wife, she''s not given herself a very positive attitude at all, and again, a person is known by those they choose to spend time with and affiliate with. Such is the way things go.

****

And yes, people (particularly public, political people) are connected to those they affiliate with, positives and negatives combined.

****
Wright can have whatever views he wants. You''re right; this is America. I don''t have to support a president who supports him, however.

1) I guess it''s a good thing Obama is proud of his country and does the pledge and all that good stuff that you love.
2) That''s fine and dandy, just gave you a perspective which you obviously do not understand and are unable to, oh well. I hope Tim Wise can convince you of something.
3) So, Michelle doesn''t give herself a positive attitude? Or she''s unpatriotic? Which is it? If you don''t like her ''attitude'' so be it, she seems like my kinda gal. But I still don''t think anything she has said or done makes her anti-American, which I thought was your point.
4) You have a right to support or criticize whomever you want. But I''m always seeking to understand perspectives different from my own and what has shaped that perception. I thought I''d offer that to you in case it help to put things into perspective, obviously it did not. Anything beyond this is talking in circles.

Hmm... okay then.

That I ''don''t understand'' something which you have not explained is very curious to me.

Are you having issues with the quoting function or editing your posts?

If you feel as though I have not explained then you have not read or you have not comprehended. Seriously.

Nope, I''m quoting your posts just as they appear to me.

 

[MoonWater]

You do realized that above you responded to me, and then quoted yourself in response to me to respond again. Simply edit.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Let''s breathe deep everyone!

Maybe this will make you laugh =D

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Cute baby panda, Sarah.

I''m not upset. I will quote the post I''m responding to as I always do. I''m familiar with people opting to make attempts at personal attacks when someone doesn''t agree with their views. It doesn''t detract from the topic at hand, however. I don''t play that way, but to each his (or her) own.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Sarah, that link was great. Paul and I just had a good time laughing at some of the silly faces linked along with the sneezy panda baby. Too funny. I wonder where people find the time to try those things....

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Haha. I saw it on comedy central last night. Embarrassing I know, but I decided to look it up and it was hilarious, so I thought I''d share. I

Pandas!! I love the look the Mom gives the baby, she is just like WOAH what is your prob kid?

 

[fisherofmengirly]

The Atlanta zoo had a baby panda last year; we went more times than I can remember. I just loved watching the panda baby grow. They had it blocked off in like 15 minute segments, so everyone got a turn, but it was so much fun! I never did hear it sneeze, though. Now I wish I had. I would have likely peed from laughing!

 

[ephemery1]

Oh no, don't detract from a thoughtful and provocative post with a silly (albeit cute) panda Youtube clip!

I was hoping that was going to be a more relevant link.

I am still undecided on the election. And since I registered Democrat for the purpose of this election and live in Pennsylvania, I only have a few more weeks to come to a decision. That said, I really appreciated reading the debate that has arisen here, particularly the perspective of Moonwater. Moon, I didn't agree with every word you posted, but I could not agree more with your style... the underlying sentiment of every one of your posts was that you are a fair and open-minded person who seeks truth, perspective and knowledge from every possible source, including those whose viewpoints differ from yours. You debate in a way that is similar to the way I strive to communicate daily... if I don't understand something, I will do everything within my power to increase my understanding... and I assume (naively, sometimes) that my partners in conversation are willing/able to do the same. Frustratingly, not always the case. My DH has a different style and it has taught me to be more patient with people who aren't as accustomed to putting logic before passion. It has also taught me that there is value in those other styles... after all, if the whole world were like me, nothing would ever get done... we'd be too busy understanding everyone else's side of the story to enact any real change.

But that's a total digression about my own unique communication style. Just wanted to share that I appreciate your manner of discussion. The fact that you present your arguments in a logical way first, passionate way second, makes them resonant and meaningful to me... regardless of whether or not I agree with all of them. So thank you for that!

ETA -- I appreciated hearing everyone else's opinions as well... so I should say thanks to all who participated! Just struck by Moon's style in particular, and felt compelled to comment.

ETA(again) -- In the beginning of our relationship (and sometimes still!), DH would occasionally feel as though I was "attacking" him, when I was really just trying to gain as much understanding of his thoughts/opinions as I possibly could. Because I have so much respect for him and his perspective, I would ask a lot of direct, pointed questions in hopes of learning more about it and the logic behind it... and he would interpret that as me being too aggressive in our discussion. For anyone who may feel as though Moon has been aggressive in any way, I am guessing that may be part of the reason. Just wanted to throw that out there in case it helps in any way....

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 4/3/2008 9:10:32 PM
Author: ephemery1
ETA(again) -- In the beginning of our relationship (and sometimes still!), DH would occasionally feel as though I was ''attacking'' him, when I was really just trying to gain as much understanding of his thoughts/opinions as I possibly could. Because I have so much respect for him and his perspective, I would ask a lot of direct, pointed questions in hopes of learning more about it and the logic behind it... and he would interpret that as me being too aggressive in our discussion. For anyone who may feel as though Moon has been aggressive in any way, I am guessing that may be part of the reason. Just wanted to throw that out there in case it helps in any way....

Haha sorry! I know what you mean though about the attacking thing. FI used to kind of sound like he was questioning you if he had a question about something, does that make sense? So if he didn''t understand, it would instead sound like he didn''t believe you. Haha. He''s learned how to phrase questions a bit more delicately.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 8:11:36 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

I''m not upset. I will quote the post I''m responding to as I always do. I''m familiar with people opting to make attempts at personal attacks when someone doesn''t agree with their views. It doesn''t detract from the topic at hand, however. I don''t play that way, but to each his (or her) own.

Who are you referring to? I simply pointed out that you have quoted yourself and asked if you were having issues with using the quote/edit function. I also notice that you will quote the same post multiple times, highlighting different portions in order to respond to each portion. It''s unnecessary as you can consolidate it all into one post. If you consider that a personal attack, you''re quite sensitive.

 

[ephemery1]

Date: 4/3/2008 10:19:39 PM
Author: SarahLovesJS

Date: 4/3/2008 9:10:32 PM
Author: ephemery1
ETA(again) -- In the beginning of our relationship (and sometimes still!), DH would occasionally feel as though I was 'attacking' him, when I was really just trying to gain as much understanding of his thoughts/opinions as I possibly could. Because I have so much respect for him and his perspective, I would ask a lot of direct, pointed questions in hopes of learning more about it and the logic behind it... and he would interpret that as me being too aggressive in our discussion. For anyone who may feel as though Moon has been aggressive in any way, I am guessing that may be part of the reason. Just wanted to throw that out there in case it helps in any way....

Haha sorry! I know what you mean though about the attacking thing. FI used to kind of sound like he was questioning you if he had a question about something, does that make sense? So if he didn't understand, it would instead sound like he didn't believe you. Haha. He's learned how to phrase questions a bit more delicately.

Makes total sense! It definitely helps when both people are able to communicate their needs (ie, "That sounds kinda harsh, can you maybe phrase it a bit more gently?" or "That isn't making sense to me, can you please give me some more detail to help me better understand where you're coming from?")... glad it has worked out for you and your FI!

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 9:10:32 PM
Author: ephemery1
Oh no, don''t detract from a thoughtful and provocative post with a silly (albeit cute) panda Youtube clip!

I was hoping that was going to be a more relevant link.


I am still undecided on the election. And since I registered Democrat for the purpose of this election and live in Pennsylvania, I only have a few more weeks to come to a decision. That said, I really appreciated reading the debate that has arisen here, particularly the perspective of Moonwater. Moon, I didn''t agree with every word you posted, but I could not agree more with your style... the underlying sentiment of every one of your posts was that you are a fair and open-minded person who seeks truth, perspective and knowledge from every possible source, including those whose viewpoints differ from yours. You debate in a way that is similar to the way I strive to communicate daily... if I don''t understand something, I will do everything within my power to increase my understanding... and I assume (naively, sometimes) that my partners in conversation are willing/able to do the same. Frustratingly, not always the case. My DH has a different style and it has taught me to be more patient with people who aren''t as accustomed to putting logic before passion. It has also taught me that there is value in those other styles... after all, if the whole world were like me, nothing would ever get done... we''d be too busy understanding everyone else''s side of the story to enact any real change.

But that''s a total digression about my own unique communication style. Just wanted to share that I appreciate your manner of discussion. The fact that you present your arguments in a logical way first, passionate way second, makes them resonant and meaningful to me... regardless of whether or not I agree with all of them. So thank you for that!

ETA -- I appreciated hearing everyone else''s opinions as well... so I should say thanks to all who participated! Just struck by Moon''s style in particular, and felt compelled to comment.


ETA(again) -- In the beginning of our relationship (and sometimes still!), DH would occasionally feel as though I was ''attacking'' him, when I was really just trying to gain as much understanding of his thoughts/opinions as I possibly could. Because I have so much respect for him and his perspective, I would ask a lot of direct, pointed questions in hopes of learning more about it and the logic behind it... and he would interpret that as me being too aggressive in our discussion. For anyone who may feel as though Moon has been aggressive in any way, I am guessing that may be part of the reason. Just wanted to throw that out there in case it helps in any way....

Thanks ephemery! You actually couldn''t be more on point. Save the part about not getting things done, I always get things done, lol. I''m also a psychotic planner and multitasker. I think my FF feels attacked as well sometimes for the same reason as your DH. He has nicknamed me the vulcan. Frankly, I think if people really want to have a genuine discussion, especially about a sensitive issue, they must put some effort into understanding why people feel the way they do. Otherwise, what''s the point in talking? You''ve made up your mind and you don''t wish to change it.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 8:06:18 PM
Author: SarahLovesJS
Let''s breathe deep everyone!

Maybe this will make you laugh =D

Ok, I have to send that to everyone I know!

 

[diamondfan]

I think sharing one''s views is fine. What offends me is when someone continues to think that because you have not CHANGED your view to suit them, you have not conceded to them, it must be because you are not clear on what THEY are stating. Having a dialog is not about changing people''s minds. That may happen, of course. However, when people who are comfortable with their views and how they came to have those views state that point, they should not be told that they are not correct or somehow be made to feel they must continue to defend their view. Or threatened that they will not be answered as if such punishment really accomplishes anything among reasonable people. What happened to agreeing to disagree?

Come election day, each one of us will hopefully exercise our right and participate in the privilege of voting for the person who most embodies what a President should be. That will be different for different people. Frankly, there is stuff about each of these people I like, and stuff I do not like, but I have to identify what issues matter most to me and vote from that point. In the meantime, I can think the candidate X is not my kind of candidate, and I can state as such. I can also listen to and respect why someone might not agree, but I will not let anyone, let alone people who are making erroneous assumptions, judge me or tell me I must justify to them why I feel the way I do. Adults do not need to act this way. We can have mutual respect. I mean, really, is someone going to just overwhelm with links and verbiage etc and finally exhaust those who disagree with them into agreeing? Some person can write a wonderful article about why Rev. Wright is a wonderful man and why his words are justified and I DO NOT HAVE TO AGREE. They can think it and support Obama, but unless there is something that resonates with me, or something that compels me to change my mind, I will still come away with my views.

 

[ephemery1]

Date: 4/3/2008 10:39:30 PM
Author: diamondfan
I think sharing one's views is fine. What offends me is when someone continues to think that because you have not CHANGED your view to suit them, you have not conceded to them, it must be because you are not clear on what THEY are stating. Having a dialog is not about changing people's minds. That may happen, of course. However, when people who are comfortable with their views and how they came to have those views state that point, they should not be told that they are not correct or somehow be made to feel they must continue to defend their view. Or threatened that they will not be answered as if such punishment really accomplishes anything among reasonable people. What happened to agreeing to disagree?

Come election day, each one of us will hopefully exercise our right and participate in the privilege of voting for the person who most embodies what a President should be. That will be different for different people. Frankly, there is stuff about each of these people I like, and stuff I do not like, but I have to identify what issues matter most to me and vote from that point. In the meantime, I can think the candidate X is not my kind of candidate, and I can state as such. I can also listen to and respect why someone might not agree, but I will not let anyone, let alone people who are making erroneous assumptions, judge me or tell me I must justify to them why I feel the way I do. Adults do not need to act this way. We can have mutual respect. I mean, really, is someone going to just overwhelm with links and verbiage etc and finally exhaust those who disagree with them into agreeing? Some person can write a wonderful article about why Rev. Wright is a wonderful man and why his words are justified and I DO NOT HAVE TO AGREE. They can think it and support Obama, but unless there is something that resonates with me, or something that compels me to change my mind, I will still come away with my views.

DF, I appreciated your posts (I always do... you write clearly and concisely), and particularly your perspective as a Jewish woman in America. Since I am by no means an expert on political issues, I was more than satisified with the amount of detail you gave, and felt as though I'd learned something from what you said. But I gathered that Moonwater was hoping for further clarification (not just from you, but other posters as well) on some of the issues that were presented, as she'd already done a fair amount of research in the area and very much wanted to engage in further discussion about it. I didn't see it as her telling anyone they weren't correct, or forcing them to defend their views, but just requesting continued elaboration so as to gain a better understanding of where you (and everyone else) were coming from. It honestly didn't seem disrespectful to me (I actually think of it as respectful, because she values your thoughts enough to want to hear more of them!), but again, that may be because I have a tendency to communicate that way myself. Understanding is ALWAYS the bottomline of every argument for me... which means I will pursue that (sometimes to a fault, I admit!) until I feel I truly "get" the other person's perspective. Not for the purpose of changing my own views, but to enhance them. I guess it's the whole "knowledge is power" thing, in a way.

But that's just me, and I know I can't speak for Moonwater.... again, just thought it might help to throw that out there... but maybe not.

 

[MoonWater]

Here's to beating a dead horse:

I absolutely DO NOT CARE if anyone changes their views. I also absolutely DO NOT CARE if anyone in this thread votes for Obama. In fact, I thought this thread was about his speech on race in America and that is what I came here to discuss, but I digress.

I have repeatedly asked from anyone that thought Obama was anti-America, anti-white, or anti-Israel, to explain to me how they came to those conclusions. I asked, (and my god, how often do I need to repeat myself before my words are not misinterpreted), because there is a lot of misinformation out there in the media. But each time I asked, I was ignored. No one offered up any explanation, just said it was their view and they were comfortable with it, the end. Well, ok. Then why post about it if you don't want to discuss it? I'm trying to understand your view but you won't even explain it to me. I suggested going beyond those clips and the typical articles that give you quotes out of context to help put things into perspective (I mean geez a poster in another thread claimed that Obama didn't do the pledge which was a PROVEN LIE, yet he still can't live it down). If, after you have done this, you feel the same way, so be it. But at least you saw how the person wanted to represent themselves. Since no one bothered giving specifics about Obama "denouncing America" or being "anti-patriotic" or "anti-Israel" I can only assume your reasoning came from the same stuff I've seen on tv. If that were all I knew, I'd likely share your opinion. That is why I asked that people dig deeper. Most especially since I know it is very hard for white people in general to understand the black perspective. Most do not make the effort to even learn black history. I figure being a black woman that grew up poor in inner cities, who heard Wright's opinions come out of the mouths of friends and family, who understands exactly where that bitterness and resentment came from would help. I was wrong.

Now, I'm done with this because it is beyond frustrating. Take an African-American studies class or a course on race relations. Maybe you'll find the way that information is presented to be more objective and perhaps you won't react with defensiveness.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 10:57:51 PM
Author: ephemery1

DF, I appreciated your posts (I always do... you write clearly and concisely), and particularly your perspective as a Jewish woman in America. Since I am by no means an expert on political issues, I was more than satisified with the amount of detail you gave, and felt as though I''d learned something from what you said. But I gathered that Moonwater was hoping for further clarification (not just from you, but other posters as well) on some of the issues that were presented, as she''d already done a fair amount of research in the area and very much wanted to engage in further discussion about it. I didn''t see it as her telling anyone they weren''t correct, or forcing them to defend their views, but just requesting continued elaboration so as to gain a better understanding of where you (and everyone else) were coming from. It honestly didn''t seem disrespectful to me (I actually think of it as respectful, because she values your thoughts enough to want to hear more of them!), but again, that may be because I have a tendency to communicate that way myself. Understanding is ALWAYS the bottomline of every argument for me... which means I will pursue that (sometimes to a fault, I admit!) until I feel I truly ''get'' the other person''s perspective. Not for the purpose of changing my own views, but to enhance them. I guess it''s the whole ''knowledge is power'' thing, in a way.


But that''s just me, and I know I can''t speak for Moonwater.... again, just thought it might help to throw that out there... but maybe not.

LOL you can''t speak for me? Hell, I''m about to make you my spokeswoman. Thanks for understanding. Makes me feel like I''m not as inarticulate as I''m beginning to think I am.

 

[diamondfan]

Ephemery, you are always thoughtful and gracious. This is not per se about one person but...

I get exasperated when I felt I had more than made clear that no matter what anyone else felt, did or said, I personally had done all the research I deemed necessary and felt quite confident in the conclusion I reached. I also made it clear that I am not in any way a racist or bigot, heck, I would vote for ANYONE, of any party, that really represents what I want. I am what I call a liberal Rebublican. I am only really fiscally a Republican, but align myself more moderately to liberal on social issues etc. I am not a big believer in big government, fat spending, denying social aid, but I also think we need a strong military and must have the means to protect ourselves fully. We all need good schools, clean air, clean water, gas we can afford, health care we can utilize...who is NOT for those things? I do not even mind paying a bit more for certain things to ensure quality and stop outsourcing jobs. I think we should be considered smart enough, most of us, to know how to spend our money.
I am not an expert but feel informed enough about Rev. Wright and Obama to come to the conclusion I have come to. At that point, the allusion that I must be closed minded or unwilling to educate myself further and therefore was going to be punished for it, well, ...that speaks VOLUMES to me. Why should I continue to research more when I have heard or seen enough to satisfy ME, the one who counts most in this case? It is my decision, after all. I was not suddenly going to read an article and do a complete 180 degree turn. No amount of copious drama or links to people who support him is going to change that. I know sooooo many Jewish people, Democrats, people very involved in the political and religious landscape in Philly, who are just appalled that Obama is being supported. However, I think as we live in a democratic country, as much as I might dislike some of the substance, I have to support the process, so I am more apt to walk away than continue to demand someone satisfy me-if they are bright and informed and that is their view, I think the gracious thing to do is let it be. And I really love when it becomes, Yeah, well, and so's your such and such! It is a bit immature to throw that up when it only serves to obfuscate the topic at hand. I saw no one saying it was okay for white religious leaders to spew hate, if I heard one I would be up in arms, and I am sure they exist in larger numbers than we care to admit. I would never dare to presume I know what a non white person has experienced, or what someone who grows up in poverty or a single parent home dealt with, BUT, I know that many of them are not filled with hate...

So, bottom line, politics is a tough topic, but the insinuations and assumptions totally ticked me off, and so, I feel perfectly free to state that and I am entitled to do so. We are all, hopefully, reasonable people...we have choices and the freedom to talk about them.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

This probably won't sound very articulate, so I am sorry ahead of time. I've tried to make myself avoid this thread, but I can't stop reading it anyway. I guess I just end up feeling confused because I can't ever understand what it feels like to be a non-white person in America. When I look around, I see class issues and not race issues. I guess that's a product of people I came in contact with growing up and living in a middle class area. The people I knew without money were both white and black. I knew equal numbers of both. There are more minorities in poverty as far as I know (I believe statistics show that so no need to link me to articles or statistics), but I just look at all of poverty and not color.

I think African-American kids in inner city schools with poor educations are just as abandoned by the system as rural white kids with poor educations. I guess I look at things as we need to help people in the lower financial classes of society, not just we need to help a certain race. But, that's just me.

ETA: I am sorry if I offend anyone, starting to regret posting haha, but I won't remove it that'd probably be rude.

 

[ephemery1]

Date: 4/3/2008 11:17:26 PM
Author: diamondfan
Ephemery, you are always thoughtful and gracious.

My DH might not completely agree with you on that......

But that post was really helpful in explaining why you were ticked off... and actually reminded me that the most important thing about all this, is taking responsibility as an individual for becoming educated and informed enough to be confident about your own personal views, regardless of what extent you choose to share or debate them. You''ve made it clear that you''ve done that, and given what you''ve expressed, I don''t doubt it at all. But I''m glad you added those thoughts, because I think sometimes my own ceaseless quest for deeper understanding gets in the way of the simple (but true) fact that it really is ok to agree to disagree. (Although I actually agree with most of the political views you just expressed.) OK, stopping now because it''s past my bedtime and my brain is all muddled...

 

[ephemery1]

Date: 4/3/2008 11:06:20 PM
Author: MoonWater

LOL you can't speak for me? Hell, I'm about to make you my spokeswoman. Thanks for understanding. Makes me feel like I'm not as inarticulate as I'm beginning to think I am.

Haha... I HAVE been considering a career change....

I do understand... we're obviously different people (you get things done, I don't... I've had the same to-do list running for about 2 weeks now, any tips?), but as I said, your style jumped out at me immediately, because it made sense to me even when it wasn't making sense to other people. I do think we are (or at least, I am) probably in the minority with some of our communication preferences, and what's stimulating for us is sometimes offputting for others. I like that insatiable, "must talk more/learn more/understand more" part of me, but I have to admit it's exhausting at times. Although when DH affectionately tells me I'm tough to live with, I like to point out it's even tougher living INSIDE this head of mine!